I have a question I’d like you to consider. I raise it because yesterday I was interviewed about this very question by Jim Burns for his nationally syndicated radio program, HomeWord with Jim Burns, who was talking with me about my book, I’m Okay-You’re Not.
The question I explore in I’m OK—and the one I’d like to ask you now—is whether or not you think that The Great Commandment and The Great Commission are (at this point in our culture) incompatible. I’m OK asserts that they are (and then, lest I be accused of being just a troublemaker, goes on to reconcile the two). I don’t want to sum the book up here; it is, after all, a question that demands some real respect and time to deal with properly. But let me here throw out this basic Stack O’ Propositions to you, and see if they don’t bring you to the same conclusion I keep coming to:
1. Fulfilling Jesus’ “Great Commandment” means loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.
2. Fulfilling Jesus “Great Commission” (“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations …”) means sharing the gospel with nonbelievers, in the hopes that they’ll really hear the message of Jesus, believe in Him, and become Christians.
3. Putting The Great Commandment into words means saying to a nonbeliever something that, in essence, amounts to, “I love you with all of my heart.”
4. Putting The Great Commission into words means saying to a nonbeliever something that, in essence, amounts to, “You should exchange whatever you believe in now for belief in Jesus Christ.”
5. Boiled down even further, “You should exchange whatever you believe in now for belief in Jesus Christ,” amounts to, “You need to radically change who you are.”
6. ”I love you with all my heart,” and “You need to radically change who you are” is a confusing, unhelpful message.
7. Maybe we should rethink how we do evangelism.
What do you think? Does all that make sense? Have I totally missed or boggled something in this line of reasoning?
I’m no logician; I’m no theologian; I’m no Bible scholar. I’m just a regular guy who, before I was a Christian, used to wonder how Christians could think that anyone would ever react positively to the message “I love you; now change.”
And now that I am a Christian, I still wonder about that.
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Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
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Back at ya…
From The Simpsons…
And another Roaming Catholic…
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=121261463&blogID=257999524&MyToken=9cbd516b-e9c6-464e-b6af-90552b73c954
Mine's better.
Ark. No, but of course it's such a huge subject. It really seems to be on a lot of Christians' minds lately. Which makes sense. Thanks for link, buddy.
You should check out John Michael Talbot on the Great Commission (May 15, 2007). Profound! http://johnmichaeltalbot.blogspot.com/search?q=%2…
The post closes with these words:
"Preach the gospel at all times,
if necessary use words." ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI
This all souds good to me.
PS i posted a comment on your squirrel story, the link i gave as my website for that was actually my husband's blog! But it's ok, he loves visitors…
John, I think you're sort of right.. but you are missing some aspects of the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. To recap your logic:
1. Fulfilling Jesus’ “Great Commandment” means loving our neighbors as we love ourselves… this means loving non-Christians AS WELL AS loving our fellow CHRISTIANS! This seems obvious, but it is very very important (and something I think too many christians forget) for reasons you will soon see…
2. Fulfilling Jesus “Great Commission” (”Therefore go and make disciples of all nations …”) means sharing the gospel with nonbelievers, in the hopes that they’ll really hear the message of Jesus, believe in Him, and become Christians. Sort of… but what it also means (and I think this is one of the most important parts) is to truly make disciples of OTHER CHRISTIANS and help them grow in the Lord. All Christians are called to be disciples and to make disciples; to 'spur one another on' and encourage one another to grow in the Lord.
3. Putting The Great Commandment into words means saying to a nonbeliever something that, in essence, amounts to, “I love you with all of my heart.” But it also, importantly, and as I mentioned before, means supporting and loving other Christians with all your heart. This means FELLOWSHIP with other Christians. Read Acts 2:42-47. The early Christians met with each other for fellowship EVERY DAY and did their best to love one another and meet each other's needs. Does that sound like the church today? No, typically the church today looks like a place you go once a week to meet with people who you barely know and might go out to lunch with once a week directly after service. If you are one of the lucky ones that is actually living in rich fellowship with other Christians consider yourself TRULY BLESSED and an exception!!!
4. Putting The Great Commission into words means saying to a nonbeliever something that, in essence, amounts to, “You should exchange whatever you believe in now for belief in Jesus Christ.” Nope, here is where we are wrong, wrong, wrong!!! The Great Commission is not about evangelizing as much as it is about making disciples! You can't make a disciple of someone who doesn't want to learn about your faith. If you are truly living life according to God's word, people will see a difference in you and ask about your faith sooner or later. hear me though– this doesn't happen just because you follow a lot of commandments, but because you are a part of something that you love so much- a new FAMILY of believers. People aren't really attracted to causes or ideas, when you get down to the heart of it. They are attracted to RELATIONSHIPS. The world will know there is something worthwhile about us when they see how much we love one another… AND that they are able to receive that love as well! When the church is able to get this, they will stop doing #5-6 below…
5. Boiled down even further, “You should exchange whatever you believe in now for belief in Jesus Christ,” amounts to, “You need to radically change who you are.”
6. ”I love you with all my heart,” and “You need to radically change who you are” is a confusing, unhelpful message.
7. Maybe we should rethink how we do evangelism. YES. Some people are called to be evangelists as like, their career. Most people are called to evangelize certain people in their own sphere of influence at certain points in their lives. But we are ALL called to make disciples and to live a life of fellowship, helping to spread God's Word by our actions, not our words.
Understandable. I'll pick up the book for sure man, I've enjoyed our conversation (and a little snarkiness is hardly to be considered disrespectful or a bone of contention) and would enjoy supporting your ministry. If you ever swing through Georgia we can continue the dialogue then. Be well.
It's kind of you to act like I haven't been short and fairly snarky, when I have been. But, alas, I've sacrificed graciousness for brevity; I'm afraid I simply haven't had time to do this conversation justice. I spend a great deal of my DAY discussing/writing about all this stuff–which, sadly, doesn't actually leave me much time to work in the sort of venue we now find ourselves. So I'll have to bow out here for a while. But you seem like a great guy, and of course you've raised a lot of great points here. I have actually addressed all of these points–in the book, for SURE, and then again, say, in the interview you'll find linked in the (very short) posting I last made to this site. I mention this stuff not to sell a book to you, but only because, to be honest, anything I'd say to you here I've already said there. (If you do happen to stop by the Christianbook.com interview, check out how LONG it is. I think it's the longest interview in … the history of questions.)
Oh, and about the "renders the scriptures irrelevant" thought. Nobody who's not a Christian wants to know anything more about the Bible than they already do. Someone who IS a Christian tends to want to know as much about the Bible as they can. In other words, scripture is ALREADY irrelevant to the nonbeliver–and, to a believer, it can't help but be intensely relevant. So it's just … a non-issue, all the way around.
The idea of the analogy was the point, not the "characters" involved. Insert any person of any age in any situation into that statement. The point is, people who have limited exposure and surface level exposure to a subject have little understanding. And, for the record, Scripture refers to men both of faith and non-believers as children. Not only God uses this term, but also Paul, etc.
As to the knowledge of Church goers, hear are just a couple stats (and yes stats can lie, but only to a certain extent) about the knowledge of most "believers"
"Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife"
I have a great deal of faith in my fellow believers, that's why I love being in the ministry. Christianity is an intellegent and loving faith coming from an all intellegent and all loving God and we as His followers have the ability to learn these amazing truths…but we have to learn. Instruction in Scripture and by the Holy Spirit as well as through fellow believers is vital to the Spiritual development of a believer.
Wouldnt really call that knowing what they believe, but close enough I guess…
The church I am at is fine, thanks…due to the fact that we teach Scripture and doctrine in all that we do. Christians don't enter the faith knowing everything, contrary to popular belief. What you will find in talking to nonbelievers about their understanding of Christianity is that it is greatly skewed due to the actions of believers…which is another testimony to the lack of Scriptural depth of the majority of church goers.
You failed to respond to the idea that claims such as
"We don’t need to burden ourselves–and we sure don’t need to burden them–by “sharing” with them what they already know.
renders the Scriptures irrelevant. We have explicit commands in Scripture to minister both in love and by the words we speak. When we silence Scripture because of It's age we tread on dangerous water.
My name is Chris, you can use that instead of guy. I am greatly enjoying our discussion, thank you for disagreeing respectfully, as is not always the case in discussion of beliefs.
As to the "non-believers as children" analogy, I've previously said this:
http://johnshore.wordpress.com/2007/05/30/adults-…
As to the assertion that the vast majority of people in church don't even know the basics of their own religion, all I can say is … um … you need to change churches. Out here in the real world, people know exactly why they go to church on Sunday. Have a little more faith in your fellow believers, guy.
First, that type of persecution still exists today, not so much in America, but all over the world.
Second, to assume that just because people live in America means that they have an understanding of Christ is quite dangerous. I don't believe you would tell a child not to burden himself with school, because everyone knows about math and english and if he really wants to know about it there are zillions of other places he can go to get it. It is a much more dangerous claim to assume that people know the basics of faith. Even in the church, a vast majority of members hardly know the basics of faith. With a mentality such as this, the Great Commission itself is rendered obsolete, as is a great portion of the New Testament.
Yes, but that was 2,000 years ago–back when NO ONE knew what Christianity was–when it was critical to the survival of the faith that it be shared with people who'd never, ever heard of it. That's hardly the state we find ourselves in today. Now, here in America, we can all rest assured that everyone's already familiar with the basics of our faith. And if any given nonbeliever wants to know more about Christianity, there are a zillion places they can go to find out about it. We don't need to burden ourselves–and we sure don't need to burden them–by "sharing" with them what they already know. If they ASK–then of course we should share with them what we know of Christ. But if they don't, we need to let it go.
I believe the apostle Paul (as well as Christ) would probably disagree with you. The commission itself commands us to "make disciples" and while Christ loved those He ministered to, He also cried for repentance. The multitudes of those martyred throughtout Christian history (as well as in modern society) are a screaming testimony to the price of the Gospel. Jesus promised that bearing His name would be costly and the apostle Paul reitterates that claim in his own biography of what the Great Commission cost him.
Well, as you know (I think), I don't think the Great Commission needs to be any sort of "costly" aspect of our Christian lives at all. I think we can stop worrying about trying to "share" what everyone already knows. I think that if (we) Christians took all the energy we now spend trying to convert others, and spent it instead "just" loving those same people, we'd all be better off.
I agree. From the very mouth of God in Christ, we see that this is, as it is named, the Greatest Commandment. How then can we sit by and treat it as secondary information? The Commandment, as well as the Commission are necessary and unbelievably costly aspects of the Christian life.
Yeah, that does make sense. And I'm glad you mentioned the relationship between the two parts of The Great Commandment, both to themselves and then to the Great Commission. That whole dynamic is one I spend a third of my book "I'm OK" on. It's VITAL, as you say, to remember the two parts of the Great Commandment–and, as I say in the book, it's REALLY important to think about their relationship. I don't think we often enough take the Great Commandment for the very serious, very complex directive it is.
Mahatma Ghandi had a quote somewhere along the lines of "I love your Christ, but I hate your Christians, Your Christians are nothing like your Christ." Christians have a bad habit of forgetting who they are when they minister to nonbelievers, we think we are something special and holy when in reality our only bit of holiness is Christ and nothing in us.
As far as the Comission and the Commandment go: Jesus names the greatest Commandment as to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength and the SECOND is to love your neighbor as yourself. We learn to love others as we learn to love God. This has to be taken care of before the believer can take part in fulfilling the Great Comission. As one commentor said, the mission of Christ to sinners was I love you, but repent. Before we can go and make disciples and teach them to obey the commands of God, we have to learn to love them as Christ loves them. The two are reconciled through the love of God and cannot be without that bond. If we went "commissioning" on our own initiative it would be foolish and hypocritical, but when we do so with the love we learn from God, we will see ourselves living the Great Commission in the way that Christ intended it to be lived. Hope that made sense.
Hi, Bethany. Thanks for kind words re: Book o’ Mine. No, though, I’m afraid the Craigslist-generated responses were never online. When I first started writing I’m OK, I put a posting up on Craigslists all over the country, asking non-Christians to write me with whatever they might like to say to Christians–particularly (as you know) relative to their experiences with Christians “evangelizing” to them. I got back 350 or so responses, in two weeks. I only had room in the book to run 50 of them–those being of course the ones you read.
They were heartbreaking reading. I actually considered posting a book consisting of nothing BUT those comments. As I say in the intro to the book, if you could boil down into one thought the collective sentiment of the nonbelievers statements, that thought would be, “Why do Christians hate us so much?” Painful.
Hey Mr. Shore. Read your book (I'm OK) and found it helpful. I was wondering if the craig's list thing was still up online? It might be nice to show the comments to some of "those" Christians who aren't aware/convinced that we rub people the wrong way.
We as Christians are asking non-Believers to come into the full realization of who they are in Christ…not to change like one would change clothes; rather to evolve into all they can be with Jesus in their lives. As I evangelize and spread the good news, it is just that…GOOD NEWS that sheds LIGHT on otherwise dull and dark places. It is not our place as followers to judge non-believers, simply to lift Jesus up so that He can draw them unto Himself. You don't say, "I love you as you are, now change"…you say, "I love you as you are, now let me show you how you can be even better."
I realize that the end of my previous comment seems harsh–I didn't mean it that way. Forgive me for seeming so. But I do think that loving someone and desiring change for them, especially if you also desire it for yourself, are not at all incompatible.
I think the message, "I love you, but you need to change," was Jesus' message precisely. As always, He was right. And I find no problem conveying that message to unbelievers, especially given that I know very well that Jesus is also constantly at work in me, changing me in wonderful and necessary ways. I love and embrace the changes He has made and is making in me, so I can present the prospect of such change for others in a loving way. I have a hard time understanding why you can't.
Father Thomas Keating says much the same thing as you, John: “The new commandment is to accept others unconditionally; that is to say, without the least wish to change them.”
I admit being amazed at such theology—If we really do love people, we’ll feel compelled to tell them (lovingly) that they absolutely need to change.
For example, imagine that the person you love most in the whole world is taking heroin—the highly addictive drug from opium that destroys brain cells by the millions. Your love would drive you to help that person change, because without change, your loved one will be destroyed. And if you love people who are wallowing in sin (ultimately much more destructive than heroin), your love will drive you to help them change from sinners to believers in Christ, the only One who can save them from sin’s destruction.
I never forget that old saying, “God loves you just the way you are. But He loves you too much to leave you just the way you are.” (Not from the Bible, of course :~)
Christ’s message in the NT is nothing if not, “Let Me change you from the lost, frightened, suffering, destructive person you are to the safe, secure, joyful, productive person you can be in Christ!”
Granted, the actual change in that person is not my responsibility; it’s not in my power to change even myself, let alone others. But the process of change that salvation is to bring cannot be denied or ignored. Every person who comes to faith in Jesus Christ must understand that He will not allow them to stay just as they are. If that were the case, then faith is futile.
Love unconditionally? Absolutely. Love that ignores the need for change, for transformation? That’s not love at all, that’s just co–dependency.
Hey, guys. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. They're all great. And though I know that in my haste I'll do injustice to them, let me quick run over my response to each:
Tony said: "For example, good parents LITERALLY tell their child that they must change certain behavior becuase it is BAD. Yet they maintain a loving relationship with that child." That's true, Tony–but this isn't about the relationship between parents and their children. This is about the relationship between nonbelievers, God, and us. Which is to say it's about us REPRESENTING God to the nonbelievers: God, as God, isn't actually in that picture yet. And the problem that nonbelievers HAVE with the way Christians represent God to them is, exactly, that they/we act like they, the non-believers, are children. But they're not. They're fully equal to us; they're our PEERS. And if we treat an adult as we would a child, they can't help but feel patronized and condescended to, which offends them, the same way it would offend us if anyone treated us like a child. So they leave us. And then, with them, we fail to fulfill both the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. That's … the reality of it. That's the ongoing problem. I do hear what you'e saying though: And you're certainly right. It's just that you're right within a context that doesn't actually address the problem at hand.
Scott: You said: "However I’ve found the best I can hope for is to continue to remove the plank (or log) from my own eye and be a better example of Christ’s teaching so I can earn the right to be heard when an opportunity to share the faith occurs. " I think that nails it, right there. That's all you can do; that's all any of us can do. You can't force Christ on people, or they run. We want them to ASK us–which they will do, if we have a relationship with them, and if they think enough of our charcter to finally trust us enough to ask us about this most personal of matters.
Anthony: Again: the "nonbelievers as children" analogy simply fails, in real-life application. (But, again, I definitely hear the beautiful place you and Tony come from on that.) No adult will stand being treated as a child–especially by a stranger, 'eh? I think everything else you say in your post is beautiful, and dead-on.
I want to thank you guys for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this. It's such a rich dialogue. (I don't think that's spelled right….) I hope other join it; I think it's one of, if not the, most important things Christians should be talking about today. So, again, thanks.
I love my children. I love them with all my heart. They are, however, children. They need to grow, to mature, and to learn right from wrong. They need to be taught about sinful traits that mar character, and to turn from
these things as they aim their life towards God and neighbor in love. They are always under my love and care,as they seek to walk in His way, truth, and life. Nothing they do will ever change how I feel towards them. Not even if they made 77 times 7 mistakes in one day.
The truth the church needs to own, despite all appearances, is that we are not O.K.. "I've got junk, you've got junk, we all got junk" and God is still involved in the process of cleaning me up. We are the children of God in the process of being changed from "glory to glory." We are "moving onto perfection" in love, but we are not there yet (not until Jesus returns and then we will be like Him).
So, if we all have junk, then what are we and what makes us so special? Well, for starters we can say that in the church we are (or should be) in right relationship with God and each other through Jesus. Because of God's love it is through Jesus we are reconciled, forgiven, Baptized, Spirit sealed, filled and empowered. We are sanctified, righteous and holy.
We are these things because of our faith in Christ's sacrifice alone. It is God's gift of salvation through faith. We are these things even though we are still in the process of being transformed into His likeness.
This is what the church is to offer, this is what the church should teach and we should learn as disciples, and this is what the church should practice.
This is the great commission and commandment fulfilled together.
It seems you’ve encountered the same dilemma as I have and I assume millions before us. I’m still not sure the “best” way to deal with it. However I’ve found the best I can hope for is to continue to remove the plank (or log) from my own eye and be a better example of Christ’s teaching so I can earn the right to be heard when an opportunity to share the faith occurs. Unless you are an evangelist the opportunity to share does not happen frequently enough to have a deep reserve of good answers to the tough questions. I’m learning this is not something most of us do well without practicing. So spending time reading, watching various programs (“The Way of The Master”) and videos on how to share in various situations (politics, homosexuality, Islam, abortion,…) has proven valuable to me.
I’m still working on the presentation part myself; it’s too easy to be overly aggressive since we really want to reach lost people and wake them up before it’s too late. It’s also hard not to be a bit defensive when the current culture’s mindset is so antichristian in its beliefs and morals. It’s a quandary and challenge to share the faith, in love, but one well worth the consideration and effort to live up to and share the faith we consider as important as life itself.
John,
I don't know, but maybe you are over-simplifying things.
The way I would illustrate how the great commandment & great commission are reconciled is by looking at everyday life.
For example, good parents LITERALLY tell their child that they must change certain behavior becuase it is BAD. Yet they maintain a loving relationship with that child.
The relationship isn't broken because trust and respect existed first. Someone who first walks out the great commandment can then fulfill the great commission. If you get it backwards you may never have anyone to make a disciple of.
Hey, Jill; hey, Sam. Thank you both for your thoughtful responses.
Hey, to Sam, if I may: You’ll notice that the thing you’ve imagined yourself saying here, in #1 (“I love you with all my heart”) is something you COULD say, literally: It would be touching, sweet, and clear.
What you’ve said in #2, though, amounts to nothing that would actually, in a conversation, make sense. THERE you are speaking (I hope) figuratively. You wouldn’t REALLY say to someone “Your house is on fire! Get out!”, right? Cuz you’d seem insane.
My question is: What would you ACTUALLY say–what LITERAL words would you choose instead of the figurative ones you’ve here used–that wouldn’t, to the nonbeliever with whom you’re engaging, sound insulting?
Isn’t “Your house is on fire,” and “You have cancer” figurative language–euphamisms–for “You’re a sorry loser; you’re wrong; you’re going to hell”, etc. And isn’t that a necessarily repelling message? Wouldn’t YOU be repelled by someone saying those things to you? And if you’ve repelled someone, that means you can’t have a relationship with them, right? And that means you’ve broken the Great Commandment with that person, right? Since you can’t have a loving relationship with someone with whom you have no relationship at all?
I'm not sure I see a disconnect the way you do. In fact, I don't think I would present the picture the way you do. For example, I might say,
1. The Great Commandment: I love you with all my heart.
2. The Great Commission: Your house is on fire, get out! or, Bad News/Good News. Bad News: You have a cancer. I love you and it's killing me to tell you and I know it's hard. Good News: There is a cure. It's radical and it's demanding, but it works every time.
When I put them in those kinds of terms, they don't seem so contradictory.
I have to say: When I had backslidden, I often thought, “Judgmental Christians…that’s exactly why nobody wants to be a Christian.” No one wants to feel as though a Christian is looking down his/her nose at him/her. We all want to be loved and respected; not judged and criticized. I’ve learned that, for me, that means not stiffening when someone drops an F-bomb, and giving a harsh look. For some people, that’s just not an offensive word; it’s their cultural way of communicating. It means that when I come across a gay person, I don’t act stiffly toward them, as if they’re such repulsive people. (When, really, the act of being homosexual is repulsive, but the homosexual him/herself is not.) When another Christian is struggling, I think it’s really distasteful when others in the church ostracize him/her (or worse, gossip about it!) instead of embracing the person struggling, and walking with them in prayer. People don’t need judgment; they need love, understanding, support, and guidance.
I think that The Great Commission to make disciples of all nations can BEST be done by putting into practice The Great Commandment to love others as we love ourselves. When we love others as we love ourselves, we put ourselves into that person’s shoes for a moment, and try to truly understand his/her feelings. When we are able to grasp someone’s pain, we are able to effectively minister to him or her…maybe that means sharing the gospel, or maybe that simply means showing through actions what a Christian is. Either way, if that person already knows we are a Christian, and is on the receiving end of such love and NON-judgment, it’s bound to affect him/her in a positive way. And hopefully, the connection between such love and kindness is attributed to our Christian faith.
My Two Cents,
Jill Kerman
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