One often hears the assertion that religion causes war: that if people would only stop believing in God there’d be much more peace and love in the world.
I want much more peace and love in the world! So let’s carefully consider the idea that without religion that is what we would have.
First off, then, we must imagine that no people anywhere in the world have so much of an inkling of the idea of God. We must imagine that God is a complete, universal non-issue. Total void. Ixnay on the Godnay.
Poof! No more awareness of God!
So all those people who now identify themselves as Christians, Muslims or [insert other religion here] would no longer.
So how, then, would they think of themselves? After religious affiliation, what’s the next primary way in which people identify themselves?
Duh. By nationality. Generally speaking, people are really into what country they’re from.
So then losing religion alone won’t bring us more peace and love, will it? When haven’t wars been fought in the name of country, patriotism, and national pride?
If more peace and love is really what we’re after, then my all means we’ll have to jettison both God and country.
Cool! Done!
So now we have no religion, and no borders. Whoo-hoo! Is that Shangra-La I see off in the distance?
Oh, shoot. Wait. We still have racial identity. Which has probably caused more strife between people than has any other single thing. You take away God and country, and people will still definitely very strongly identify themselves according to their racial inheritance.
Bummer!
Well then, our way is clear. In order for us to have at least a chance at less war in the world, we must become a Godless, country-less race of people who all look pretty exactly alike.
Sure, it sounds a tad dull. But don’t you think it would be worth it more peace and love in the world? I sure do.
So in this brave new peaceful world I wouldn’t be a Christian; I wouldn’t be an American; and it wouldn’t even occur to me that anyone might look a lot different than I.
But you know what? I’d still be a Shore.
Take away religion, country, and race, and what’s left—first, foremost, and forever—is family.
The irreducible truth about humans is that we will bond. That can’t change. Finally, we must give and receive love.
And that means coupling up. And that means family.
A commonly known fact is that people are much more likely to be murdered by their spouse, lover, or family member than they are by a stranger.
More love and peace without religion.
Phfffft.
Not.
The truth of the matter is that it’s not ideas about God that cause people to kill people. It’s human nature that causes people to kill people.
And religion is founded upon the conviction that the only way to overcome the baser aspects of human nature is through appealing to the transformative, healing power of God.
God doesn’t send people to war. If anything, God is the only thing that can stop people from going to war.
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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@Glee & @Chiquita: these things are true of any group that organizes around any ideology, even if they are trying to be totally secular. Anytime we allow an ideology (rather than love) to be our primary allegiance, we are susceptible to ‘us vs them’ thinking, which inevitably leads to conflict. Violence is just as likely to be perpetrated in the name of non-religion as in the name of religion (but for most of human history, most peoples have turned to religion of some sort, and so ‘religion’ takes the blame for our violence-laden history).
It’s like the old adage “money is the root of all evil” It’s not, and neither is religion per se the cause of all strife. Rather, it is GREED – greed for money and in religion’s case it’s the greed for power over others that causes people to twist whatever good message a religion might have into self serving rules & dogmas.
great points!
Hi John. I admire your work and read your blogs frequently but will have to disagree with you on this one.
I believe your premise is incorrect. It has never been anybody’s suggestion – and by anybody I mean the mainstream people-who-don’t-believe-in-god, a.k.a. atheists – that a godless world would lead immediately to some sort of heavenly, north-korean-like peace and serenity, in the the same way that no one believes a world without belief in god(s) would lead to immediate doom. Human nature – and more specifically Natural Selection – compels us all to get combative over a myriad of reasons, including but not not limited to nationality, race, and culture.
But here’s the difference. In a world without belief in, say, controversial supernatural entities whose supposed interpretation of will is left to each person’s own failed discretion, trying to resolve our many differences – for that is also a prevalent trait of humans, as it is in our interest to survive and evolve together – becomes a collective task based on the only other method we know to judge right from wrong that saves us from ourselves: reason and critical thinking, in this case applied to the general welfare of society.
The gay issue (for which I greatly appreciate your support) is a perfect example of this. If people’s minds weren’t so clouded by sheer dogma and religious ideology, they’d be more trained, using said reason and critical thinking, to recognize the overwhelming empirical evidence that same-sex marriage is not a threat to anything or anyone, but a natural part of society.
Unfortunately, just by a person identifying himself as being a member of a religion, he is separating himself from others. No matter how benign it is.
religion and national boundaries go hand in hand…. governments are modeled after a supreme being. if religion and regional government were abolished where would we be?
I don’t think religion per se causes strife, I think it is extremist religion that does so.
i use to visit this blog more often. my work and lifes’ circumstances has drawn me away from facebook, email and blogs such as this. i continue to be interested in Johns life and times. many years ago we played little baseball together, then in high school I enjoyed watching john on stage in high school plays and musicals (“Charlie Brown” in the Spring production, although honestly I was more interested in the talents of Geri Stafford, and ended up taking her to the Senior Ball). Where was I? John, I admire and appreciate this venue for bringing people together come to grips or terms with their spirituality. I also realize that some more specifically come to this blog to find answers and express justification or rational which might make their life choices fit into their spiritual worldview or visa-versa. If I might add to the whole mix that I believe that the debate or fight between religion goes back centuries to BC and before…duh. We continue to comment, reason, debate and war over religious matters, trying to expand or re-define religion to justify or suit our life-styles and choices. My view, for what it is worth, centers around the truth and reality that the God of the Bible and the Christian faith is absolute and unchanging. God speaks to me through His Word. Honestly, as I am taught and corrected through Gods’ Word and teachings, my wings get clipped daily, and I am corrected of my swayings. I have a choice when I am rebuked by biblical teaching. I can humbly change and submit, or I can seek to justify my actions and desires my the current worldly standards. This is an incredible tension that exists in our times, and as I observe results in confusion, compromise, and misinterpretation of biblical teachings. Keep writing John and continue searching for the truth and “trying Gods patience” for the followers God has put in your charge. God has given you a great responsibility which you will be held accountable for. A responsibility which all great Christian leaders will need to answer for. God bless.
Drawing a distinction between “having a relationship with God” and “having a religion” are quibbling over words.
* Both groups feel they have a relationship with God.
* A religion is a set of rules and traditions surrounding a central (typically) supernatural character. Both are religious as well.
Once a person puts his subjective beliefs above another person’s subjective beliefs, they are doing something that is harmful to society, and this is exactly what teh bible instructs people to do.
Humans have always managed to find a way to hate others over perceived differences. Some people point to extremist religions and use it as representative of religion as a whole. I have found that moderate religions with intelligent, thoughtful followers are harmless. Human history is replete with different cultures and philosophies, and it makes life a rich, joyful, interesting experience. Saying that all religion must go in order to bring about peace in the world is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I can live in peace with my religious brothers and sisters, and I think regardless of one’s religion (or lack thereof), we can all do without the hate that extremism brings. I would hope in that we agree.
~D2k11
Viewpoints backed by religions can based upon beliefs, and not by facts. Since they are not backed by facts, they are subjective in nature. It is impossible to truly win an argument made from a subjective opinion, but people try anyway. ANd they try for generations, causing great strife.
Any position which is supported only by religious views will necessarily be a source of conflict in all cases EXCEPT the case where all people hold the same religious views. As we move toward an integrated world this problem will come up even more often.
It’s true that religion is just one of the cases where subjective viewpoints cause people to clash. Sports teams, ethnicity, and political ideology cause arguments as well. But with these, we’ve found ways to address them.
In the case of a political ideology, there is at least a mechanism to resolve disputes either through democratic process of voting or negotiation with the other side. Sure, we have wars, but it’s a matter of record that the number of intra-region struggles and deaths resulting form them are on the decline, and teh extreme reduction in the rate of man killing man can be strongly tied to the secularization of government.
We can use reason to overcome most of our arguments, but in the case of religion, both sides think they are right, and if both parties wish to remain true to their tradition, there is nothing either side can do to defuse the situation. And religion is really the last one of the big societal issues with this kind of defect.
Religion once was an important force that shaped our societal evolution, but today it is the biological equivalent of an appendix. Other organizations offer up the same kind of value, religion doesn’t offer anything unique to help with any societal problems, and it occasional gets inflamed to the point if it is not removed, the will result in death.
Said it better than I attemped to.
That’s “religion”. NOT a relationship with God…
I remember a headline on the cover of Time or Newsweek some years back, asking “Is Religion the Root of All Evil?”. I said “bingo!”.
The problem with any religion is this. As soon as somebody puts together a program, and gathers followers, they get all excited. But soon they start getting a little smug. They start thinking that they’ve got a leg up on everybody else. They suddenly realize, “HEY. If I am right, then everybody else is WRONG”. They go from patronizing and preaching to everyone else, to just plain rejecting them. Then they start hating everybody else. After all, if YOU are God’s people, then they are the Devil’s, and are out to corrupt your children and destroy YOUR world. So then they decide it’s God’s will they die – and happily become murderers. And never get the irony that religions are the Devil’s tools.
sooooo good! 2007 vintage. very good year….
I am now going to share this with everyone I possibly can. What a great post.
Religion, yes. Jesus, no. I haven’t read it yet, but this is my initial answer to your question.
I think morons cause most of the strife myself.
…i'm not sure some of these folk actually get you, John…
and I do believe i remember a "fun with atheists" somewhere on this page. where is that right now? too…edgy?
yeah, seriously, think about it. Atheists are getting so much bad cred on the web and you are posting this? What makes you justified? I am Muslim, do you see me saying anything about how Christians are wrong for believing Jesus was reborn and that Islam rocks? would you honestly not be offended at all? religion is killing people in Palestine, you think bringing out their differences in religion is justified? Any from of prejudice, no matter how huge, or innocent, is prejudice.
oh, well, I am back, surprise!
In a way, i guess I am insulting, and insulted.
look, their are a lot of logical fallacies within your essay. No, i don't intend to read all of your articles, sorry.
What I am trying to say ( I suck with essays, forgive my dilerium) is that this essay in particle is bad.
hasty generalizations everywhere. again, why does rational thinking equal government? If religion wasn't apart of the picture, law, which has been heavily influenced by the pope, would be drastically changed.
then their is this slippery slope logic and god forbid post hoc ergo propter hoc everywhere. Tackle real atheist arguments, not these pathetic straw men! oh, and yes, these are all neat little logical fallacy thingies I learned in AP english, you can look them up if you like! I put in the little "AP" so you know i'm some twitty high schooler and not some astute scholar.
In a way I am insulted that someone would create a post outright to criticize someone's religious beliefs, if none. I am insulted and I am thoroughly justified to call you a biggot. it is like any black man of fifty and more years ago taking offense to huge amount of racism.
these people, atheists, believe something different, leave them alone.
I exist, thank you. at least I have the guts to assume my comment will be adhered to by the recipient which they are for.
Mike: Actually, Hitler was a little-known politician, part of the worker's party. In Germany, there is a senate that is elected by party, not person; the more party votes, the more members are part of the senate (and I know senate is not the correct word but I forgot which word is comparable
) Anyway, the different parties make pacts and agreements, so that there really is only 2 sides to anything brought before the senate: those for, and those against.
Hitler, through propoganda, hysteria and hate, expanded the workers' party, established the Nazi party, was voted president of the Nazi party, was voted president of Germany, abolished the republic, was voted chancellor, and then took over Germany by receiving 100% popular vote as dictator, because he and his party killed or ran off all opponents. So, yes, he was elected, he was popular because he told people what they wanted to hear, and he had the people's support for 20 years…..
That should have read: No thinking person believes or contends that utopia would result in the absence of religion.
The claim that Hitler was not a Christian is really a red herring. Whether he believed what he said or not is immaterial. It was religious dogma that he used as a central tool to achieve his ends.
Though I am not a scholar on the matter, it is my distinct recollection that Hitler never got a majority vote in elections. It was the result of the multi-party system that merely gave him more votes than any of the other parties. Had Germany had run-off elections amongst the top vote-getters until one candidate reached a popular majority; Hitler would not have come to power.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” — Steven Weinberg
It is a characteristic of the human animal to seek answers to the unknowable. No thinking person believe or contends that utopia result in the absence of religion.
Thanks for defense, Christine. But no worries. Guys like “that guy” just flop in every once in a while, spit about, and leave. You can see how incoherant he is. I appreciate you so eloquently rushing to my defense–I really do. But it’s a waste of your time. Guys like this aren’t … real. He’s not trying to engage. I’d be amazed if he ever came to this site again. They never do.
ok, John I hope you don’t mind this, but I have to interject here. I have been following this post with keen interest and have, at times, applauded both the depth of the questions and the esponses John gave. (John my admiration grows for you daily). However, that guy, your last post I believe is going one step to far. This is deliberatly antagonistic. You are, I believe trying to get a rise out of a man who has done his best to explain his faith clearly and succinctly in the face of much opposition (as seen above). If he was prejudice or stereotyping or racist or any thing you imply then he would not take the time or effort to even think for one minute about how to answer these questions.
Though our own world-views do affect the way we think about life, I believe this post is meant to open discussion and not insults. I don’t like people insulting one another and I cannot stand by and watch this happen without speaking up. John, if I am in the wrong or if anyone is offended by what I have just said then feel free to comment. I am not trying to insult you back, I just am trying to tell you that sometimes look at your own response before you say that someone else is prejudice
woah. this article, is, um…
i must say, your argument is a little, controversial.
Human nature is to connect to some larger body. Human nature is why we are not peaceful. So then if human nature leads to christianity, is christianity still a good thing?
and many of the issues you bring up we actually struggle to fix (out of human nature), such as racism. Are you implying religion can be fixed too (out of human nature)? if not, is racism a good thing?
Why am i suddenly christian, and not muslim?
I am human, and I don’t like to be put into groups. Are you stereotyping humans?
why does rational thinking equal government? do you like government?
why isn’t transcendentalism mentioned anywhere?
are you, in fact, the prejudice one causing all these problems you bring up?
Yeah I know it was and he prob won't but comments like that really rile me and, as everyone who knows me knows, I don't shut up when riled LOL
I agree with one thing you said, which is that atheism, by itself, doesn’t make someone more peaceful and loving. Then again, neither does Christianity.
If atheism does anything, it changes the focus – away from gods, devils, angels, demons, the Holy Spirit and the fiery darts of the adversary. It takes away the simplistic conclusion that aggression is to be explained as evil, or the product of an evil mind, or the inevitable result of man’s fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden.
Atheism doesn’t offer any explanation for evil, but it leaves the door open for more clinical, and less dogmatic, explanations. It allows human beings to stop looking to the supernatural realm, or man’s relationship with it, as the cause of all suffering. It allows people to see aggression as an animalistic urge, a vestige of the reptilian brain, with its fight-or-flight mechanism. If you want a sensible explanation for aggression, you’d be better served by considering the role of fear. Most animals, when threatened, lash out – even cornered bunnies. Of course, there might also be something gratifying as well about killing something that bothers you, must like stomping on the head of a snake.
If rationality is not guarantee that people are going to love another, rather than kill each other through more clever machinations, neither can be said for the so-called “love of God.” I don’t know how many have been killed in God’s name but it’s got to be a big number, anywhere from the hundreds of millions to several billion. Whatever the case, neither the “love of God” – or God’s love for humanity – has been much help in restraining human beings from killing one another.
Still, if I had to hope that human beings eventually found their way out of the muck of our primordial beginnings, I would put greater stock in teaching them to reason with one another, and to appreciate the benefits of community, than to set them in front of the Bible – in the hopes they read the inspiring sections and ignore the atrocities. Having read the Bible many times, I can think of no more compromised resource when it comes to sharing values with children.
I’m not sure having no explanation of evil is a “strength” of atheism. I find evil to be sufficiently important to be worth some thought.
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