My dachshund's namesake
Lately a couple of trouble-making readers have been asking my opinion on the question of free will vs. predestination. For some time now I have struggled mightily to ignore their queries; when finally forced by etiquette to acknowledge them, I suggested, in hopes of distracting them, that they upgrade their cable service, or invest in pets.
“You can watch Chinese soccer matches!” I tried. “And a dachshund can be so much fun! They look like sausages–with free will!”
But, alas, they stayed on topic. “Stop trying to get out of it!” they responded.
“Choke up your opinion on predestination!”
The problem is that I’ve never been too interested in trying to suss out the exact relationship between my free will and the idea of God’s already knowing my whole life. Once I tried to do some reading on the matter, but right away bumped into words like “determinism,” “Calvinism,” and “Arminianism.”
So I ran out and bought a dachshund, which I named Emanuel Swedenborg.
And now determined readers are back at it. So let me solve the whole question of free will vs. predestination, so that I can go back to watching Chinese soccer.
Now then. I am sure I have free will. To prove it, I will now do an imitation of Daffy Duck.
There. I did it. There’s no way God could have predicted I would do that.
Ha! And now I just did an imitation of Daffy Duck imitating Road Runner!
And—ow. I think I hurt my throat.
But the point is: I decided to do that larynx-traumatizer all by myself.
There’s no way that in any Book of Life written before time there’s an entry that says: “5:43 a.m. July 25, 2007. San Diego, California. Dork on couch does imitation of Daffy Duck imitating Road Runner.”
This proves, beyond question, that I have free will.
Except I don’t want to have free will. Which is to say, I don’t want to be able to surprise God. A God so stuck in temporal time that he has to wait to see what will happen next doesn’t sound like a very inspiring, very All-Knowing sort of deity. That sounds like … me watching TV.
So forget that. God knows all. Period. That’s not debatable.
So God did know I was going to wrench my poor little throat box!
And yet, he didn’t stop me. How … kind of him.
Okay, so what do we have here?
I think I have free will—but in actually I don’t, because God, knowing all, is perfectly aware ahead of time of everything that I’ll ever do, say, or think. Moreover, he causes me to do, say, and think everything I do. Because if he’s all-knowing, then he must be all-powerful, since anyone who is all-knowing but not all-powerful is just … a nerd.
Say, you know what I think?
I think I’ll take little Emanuel Swedenborg for a walk.
Okay, fine. I’ll continue. Here is what I really think: When we’re outside of God’s grace—when we’ve chosen to be Independent Types—we have free will, because we’ve then placed ourselves outside of God’s purview. But when we’re with God—when we’ve surrendered ourselves to the reality of God’s presence within us—then we don’t have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God.
There. Done. That was easy.
How is it that Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and all those other brainy theologians never thought of that?
Losers.
You know, sometimes I think Preeminent Theologian Types really just keep pretending all of this stuff is so hard, so that they don’t have to go out and get real jobs. Then again, many philosophers and theologians were working before the invention of television. Clearly, keeping themselves amused was more of a challenge for them than it is for, say, me.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Thank You John, and Thank You Christian too. I think that there are a lot of things we can learn from the Bible, but which Bible? And which translation? And who wrote it and for what audience? I am not a theologian or a bible scholar, just a Christian who is currently struggling with some of these issues. Although I am by no means an authority, I do know that the Bible gives varying accounts of the same events, and that just makes me ask more questions. The thing that is exciting to me is that I feel my faith deepening even as I consider that the Bible may not be the absolute literal word of God. I very much appreciate the discussions here. For me, it helps to reinforce that Christianity is something that can be transformational in THIS life. Hello! I guess that puts me on the side of free will, huh?
Derek,
Not "varying accounts"….complementary accounts. The accounts are told by different people who have different perspectives and who are addressing different audiences. As such they will emphasize different details. That is the correct way to reconcile the questions you have regard these supposedly differing accounts.
Tom, you seem pretty sure of yourself here. Where are you getting such definite information?
And the distinction is moot, because your definition of what it 'requires' of God to be sovereign is not by any means universally accepted. No definition of sovereign includes decreeing the future. The collection of books known as the Bible does not have God decreeing the future. If anything it shows God as being quite surprised and usually dismayed at how things have turned out. The Bible shows God as trying to be in relationship with people, encouraging a give and take (Abraham, Moses, Job, Jonah etc).
The Bible IS a living document, because we certainly can learn from the stories of people who lived so long ago that we have very little in common with them, other than they were, like us, responding to God. God's spirit is living and dynamic and is not beholden to the earlier written 'word' – as Jesus points out again and again but most memorably in his Sermon on the Mount. And we've all heard over and over again how we don't stone adulterers, we now eat pork chops etc etc etc.
It's perfectly fine to learn from others – we all do. But we do not need to give undue deference to our teachers. Eventually we will need to take what we have learned, hopefully from all sides of the issues, and come to our determination. Which, for me, has no room at all for pre-destination. Heck, I'd join a Reformed congregation if I did.
Christian,
I had another thought. You said:
Christian,
You said:
Predestination is not a result of God seeing the future. Predestination is a result of God DECREEING the future. This does not make God a "control freak", it makes Him Sovereign. I hope you can see this distinction.
Mark and Stephen point out one of the great problems with this (and just about all other debates) we let others, because of their credentials, do all the thinking for us – priests, theologians, pastors, the pope, Glen Beck etc etc.
And a lot of those 'great' thinkers did their thinking back when they thought the universe revolved around the Earth, among other things. Times have changed.
But here is the simple answer – and you may quote me:
There is no predestination because there is no such 'thing' as the future. It hasn't happened, it doesn't exist yet (at which point it will be the present for a very brief time – oops! you missed it) – it's a figment of our imaginations that can make for pretty good science fiction.
So sure God knows everything – he knows the number of hairs on your head. But he doesn't know the number of hairs in Santa's beard. Or the number of feathers that the Road Runner and Daffy Duck have.
So God doesn't HAVE to know predestine everything just because we think he can see the future. And if we read our bibles, unencumbered with the scholarly baggage of pre-eminent theologians we will see that God is far from a control freak. Or at least not a very omnipotent one.
I've been surprised to find I can find no physical characteristic of the "present" time to distinguish it from any other time (past or future). This concept only seems to be real for those spiritual entities which one may predicate existing at any given time. But I think that's what John S. said.
Gosh, now how will I sleep tonight? (And it's not "goofy" to assert that such questions can't be logically or intellectually grasped. Each of the writers you mention proved that. As I once wrote, “Bringing your rational mind to an understanding of God is like bringing cement shoes to your sky diving lesson.” And I wasn't kidding.)
Stupid John Owen eh? Took a whole book to deal with all the possibilities! ("The Death of Death in the Death of Christ") But maybe John Shore doesn't care about QUALIFIED Doctors of Divinity who spent their entire lives serving Christ and wrestling C A R E F U L L Y with determined multi-generational opponents of the Biblical doctrine of election. I just don't understand how 'GETTING REALLY GOOFY' resolves the issue. I'm sure you probably attracted a number of likeminded or amusing individuals…but you'll never be confused with Augustine or Luther or Edwards or Gill…heck…even Erasmus!
I confuse John with Goofy and Daffy all the time! And they’re freakin’ huge! And I mean, who’s EVER said that about any of those other dudes?
John,
I appreciate your willingness to engage in conversation about this. John 17:13-14, 26 speaks of doctrine giving joy. I could give you more but I am not sure how much time you want to spend in this conversation. To be short. Doctrine is teaching. The Bible is full of it. It teaches about who God is, who we are, and what God demands of us. Knowing these teachings set us free, give us life, joy, peace, love and so on. Sanctification is also a process where we become more like Jesus. Jesus is now infinitely joyful. Being sanctified includes, therefore, becoming joyful! How are we sanctified? John 17:17. That's right, doctrine. So yes, Jesus did teach that joy comes from doctrine.
Blessings,
Stephen
Jesus taught that joy comes from doctrine?
I confused by the statement you are educated enough. Do you really mean that? Proverbs has much to say concerning that man who has nothing else to learn. We are set free by truth. Learning is a process and a lifelong one at that. Please don't belittle learning and growing. For our sanctification is dependent upon knowing truth (i.e. God and how he works). Jesus taught that joy comes from doctrine. So let us both continue to learn and not be killjoys
Blessings,
Stephen
Stephen: It's a blog post, not a philosophical dissertation. And thanks for the offer of educating me, but I'm … educated enough, thanks.
John,
I appreciate your desire to deal with this topic. I also see that you have given this topic some thought. And I don't mean to be rude but this is not a simple as you have stated in your post. Not to mention your lack of respect for the hard work of men before you is needless to say insulting. Yet these comments concerning them exposes how little you do understand concerning the topic. I recommend you read a bit more on the topic and strive to truly understand where the debate lies. Labor to understand where opposing camps stand. Secondly pick up some biographies of these men you have listed and see what real jobs they had. And see how most of these men had significantly more difficult lives then we do today. Their desire to understand real life is what drove these men to find answers to these questions that life brought to them. If you would like you can check out my blog where I have just posted an article concerning this topic. Maybe that can be a start for you in this study.
Blessings,
Stephen
Bible teaches predestination and rightly so how could we, so happily, in our sin-loving life even want to reach out to God? Bible also says He knew us before the foundation of the world. Let God be God and praise Him in that He is a good and just God and get on with it. I have set tapes excellent on this subject and am now fully settled on the answer. Seek God and maybe He will put some good teaching across your path.
John,
Interesting post. Dealing with this issue is always such a serious matter that it was nice to see it from a lighter side. How we settle this issue affects the way that we interpret much of Scripture.
By the way, I appreciate your compliment about my blog. What started out as “I’ll just give it a try and see how I like it” has turned into something very enjoyable and addictive.
Tom
The Everyday Christian
http://sanctification.wordpress.com
Well, this is just such a joy. Thank you, brother.
JS Wrote: "Okay, here’s what I think: When we’re outside of God’s grace–when we’ve chosen to be Fallen Independent Types–we have free will, because we’ve then placed ourselves outside of God’s purview. But when we’re with God–when we’ve surrendered ourselves to the reality of God’s presence within us–then we don’t have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God."
…and thus the constant struggle many of us face everyday in our "walk"? (or at least I know that I face this struggle regularly) Surrendering completely, and all that it entails, seems so contrary to our nature. (or at least mine)?
I've really enjoyed reading through the many entries here this morning. I've laughed, I've frowned, I've reflected and I've pondered. Ultimately, it's been a great way to spend a morning and has been VERY enlightening. Thank you! I look forward to more!
… er, I meant the Great Commandment where I wrote the Great Commission…
(Wish there was an edit button, because these are the type of errors spell check doesn't catch.)
BTW, I love the name of your dachshund! So sentimental to have an earthly companion pointing to well… at least a late life spiritual conversion, even if not symbolically a higher or religious truth… sort of a bit of an inside joke, huh?
Of course, when we read and experience the presence of God in our daily life and relationships, when we practice the Great Commission, so to speak, we become, like Christ, more human and more divine, truly "bringing in" and making "at hand" the proleptic reign of God. (I love that word "proleptic" — use it every chance I get. It means something which is fully present and yet to be developed. Cool, huh?) I think the human/divine connection is not complete by just intellectual ascent, but is also very experiential…
To kind of go along on your post on creativity and God: Creative endeavors, or art if you will, can often move other people to feel sympathy and kindness for their fellow human beings (of course, the alternative is a form of critical distance where a person remains untouched and stuck in analysis). And that, perhaps ironically, is a "useful" thing and maybe one of God's inside jokes.
John, your humor is a real gift to others, funny guy! A true art form with an edge of being barbed, outrageous, and dramatic while still being kind and sentimental. You have a gift of opening your mouth and saying that the emperor has no clothes when others concern themselves with some form of habitual propriety. You go man!
Well, and of course if one is going to be open to the idea that hell is fundamentally (so to speak) okay, then it seems reasonable that one might also be open to the idea of being, come the time, surprised by the actual nature of hell.
I hear you with the idea that as much as is revealed in the word there's alot not revealed. The guy could get saved on his deathbed or maybe God has some way of imputing the righteousness of Christ to him, post last breath. But, the Lord did say the way to life is narrow and few find it. Few is not many, so it would appear that most don't get saved. I try to rest in the fact that God is good and knows infinately more than me and eventually it will be clear why there is a hell and we will see that God is good even for that. A heavy thought for sure, (praising God for hell) but true I believe.
That was great very funny
And who is "that guy" ??
Rachel, you're such a warm, open, loving person. I sure wish I had your … drugs.
HAR!
See, now, back when I WASN'T a Christian, drugs (and sex) made for EXCELLENT humor fodder. Now … not so much.
But you're young. You're resiliant. I know you've got what it takes to endure … well, me.
The best part about all this is that Theology Talk is a great, fullfilling, growth inspiring, friend making (sometimes) hobby…thankfully we don't have to agree on any of it in order to define God (as if that were an option). GREAT TOPIC. Thanks to that guy for suggesting it!
GR: Fantastically said.
Aren't we quite the Amatuer Theologian team? (Or pros, maybe. For all I know, you guys are Major Christian Thought guys.) It's so great, the way everyone just sort of GETS–as in naturally intuits the resolutions of–God's most profound mysteries.
"Where I’ve arrived at is predestination is a fact, but we have what appears to us as free will."
I do believe, Ross, that that's where the evolution of this whole line of inquiry has left most theologians and Christian philosophers. I think you're dead on there.
As to, "Why [was I] predestined, and not the guy in the next cubicle over?", how can you ever really know WHAT the eternal fate of the guy in the next cubicle is? He could be saved tomorrow. He could be saved moments before he passes. God could have something special and wonderful AFTER he dies? Who knows? But we trust God to do the right thing by the guy in the next cubicle, no? So, to me, there's just no worries there. For all I know, the guy in the next cubicle is–and perhaps in a way known only to him and God–closer to God than I could ever hope to be.
A nice humorous take on the topic.
The difficulty between free will and predestination arises in God's omniscience. (Not that I consider this a real conflict, as I don't considering knowing a causal activity.) Did't you just write about suferring in "The Comfort of the Cross". If God's goodness can encompass our suffering, it can also encompass our free will. God gave us free will, knows what we will do with it, loves us anyway, and intends to bring good out of it.
I can't articulate all the good consequences of our free will. But a being without free will can't choose, and hence can't do good or evil, can't love or hate. Had Jesus, in his human nature (as opposed to his godly nature), lacked the capacity of free will, the fact of his being sinless would have been meaningless. In the end, I trust that God thinks that it is a good thing that I have free will and the opportunity to screw up, while lacking an understanding of how it is good.
I struggled with this one for years, but not so much anymore. Where I've arrived at is predestination is a fact, but we have what appears to us as free will. On the other side (the better side) we'll see how God engineered everything and even our disobedience was used by him to fashion us to His liking. But I do wonder about one thing. If predestination is true, and I believe it is, Why were we predestined and not the guy in the next cubicle over? The longer I walk with the Lord the more I realize that there is nothing in myself that God would qualify as a good trait and therefore worth saving. If there is any good in me it ain't me it's Him working through me. One of the many mysteries of God.
"Little Emanuel." That is just TOO FUNNY.
Really, though, thanks for inspiring me to write this piece. It was really fun.
Clearly little Emanuel is outside of God's grace. You need to get that doggie saved STAT.
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