A young man wrote me the other day to ask why God doesn’t once and for all prove his existence. Here’s my answer to that earnest seeker. (Yo! Danny! Do good in school! And don’t take drugs! And … well, actually, that pretty much covers it.)
First of all, God did prove his existence; that’s pretty much the whole point of the Bible specifically and Christianity generally.
So. Massively gargantuan point.
But I know that what you mean is why doesn’t God prove his existence again — and this time, to you personally.
If you think about that question, though, you’ll see pretty soon that what anyone asking it really wants is for God to not only prove to them personally that he exists, but to simultaneously prove his existence to a whole bunch of other people, too. Because if God proved his existence to just you, then that’s going to leave you with one whopper of a challenge on your hands, insofar as right away your choices will boil down to exactly two: Either tell people how you personally encountered God, and risk them thinking you’re absolutely badoinkers — or don’t tell anyone how God proved to you he was real, and risk having a stress-induced heart attack from having to keep such an extraordinary experience locked up inside of you.
See? Neither’s what you’d call an Optimum Situation.
And that is why anyone who claims to want irrefutable, objectively verifiable proof of God’s existence must also want God to prove he exits to everyone else in the world — or to half of them, anyway, so that he or she will at least be in the majority of people.
And God proving the reality of his existence to everyone all at once pretty much boils down to him suddenly, all around the world, appearing in the sky, and in a booming voice announcing (something like), “Hello, world! Surprise! It’s me! Try not to faint!” And of course he would have to say whatever he said in the language that any given person listening to him could understand. Including, come to think of it, baby talk.
Point is: It would be quite the Logistical Challenge.
But hey! It’s God! If anyone could pull it off, he’d be the … divine entity to do it!
And do you know what would happen if God did, all at once, to everyone in the world, finally prove his existence? People all over the world would scream, and faint, and exclaim, and tear their hair and rend their clothes — and then they’d realize that they just got so bored they’d all slump over and pass out.
Bottom line? God doesn’t prove to you in an objectively verifiable way that he exists because he knows doing so would flat-out ruin you.
The truth is, we don’t want God to prove he’s real to us in the same way everything else in our lives that’s “real” to us is real to us. Because it would destroy that within us which keeps us ever moving forward toward resolution, knowledge, clarity, context, wholeness. It would strip from us the very thing that makes us human.
Just imagine it. Imagine God really appeared before you, in physical form — that he spoke and talk and … hung out at your place for awhile.
First, you’d be awed and amazed!
And then — and in fairly short order, too – you’d become a zombie. Because there’d be no mystery left in your life.
Who remains deeply fascinated by a novel when they already know how it ends?
We need God to be mysterious. In order for us to have the richest, most human experience possible for us in this life and on this earth, we need God, and all Essential, Divine Matters, to be just beyond our rational comprehension, just outside of our grasp.
Our relationship with God needs to be, to us, a two-way, interactive, give-and-take, constantly exchanging sort of relationship — of essentially the same sort as we have with everyone else in our lives. If God just appeared to all of us, all at once, the fundamentals of our personal relationship to him would instantly be so radically altered — we’d be so thoroughly pushed out of the subjective give-and-take role that’s actually necessary to keep us engaged with God — that … that we’d no longer be who we are.
We’d be … Us, Severely Unplugged.
Our spiritual initiative would be gone.
We move forward because we want to know.
If we did know, we’d stop.
Not so good.
You don’t, actually, want God to “prove” his existence, any more than you want to lose, for instance, your imagination.
Here’s another reason it actually doesn’t make any sense to desire that God suddenly prove to everyone that he exists: It’s not God’s primary purpose to work with people as a whole, from the outside. God develops his relationship with us individually, from inside of us: God speaks to our heart, to our soul, to our experience, in the ways we most need to hear and understand him. God loves each one of us personally –a nd he wants to communicate that personally, intimately, carefully, delicately; he wants to communicate everything about himself — and us — to us in the ways and at the times that are best for us.
God had no natural interest in just … overpowering everyone at once.
Please.
This is God we’re talking about, not … P.T. Barnum.
God is pleased to be “real” where he can be the most real — where you can comprehend the most of him — which is inside of you. God is a spiritual power. The fullest communion with God must happen spiritually; it must happen inside of you, not outside of you.
The bottom line is that while you might think you want God to objectively “prove” his existence, you don’t, in fact, want that at all.
You don’t want that because you’re more complex than that. You don’t want that because your needs are more real than that.
You don’t want that because you were designed to be better than that.
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God does prove His existence to those he wants to prove it to. However, in spite of what you have been told, God does not love everybody. Romans chapter 9 pretty much covers it. V13 states "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." V18 states "God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy and hardens whom he wants to harden."
If Christians would accept this they would be less likely to browbeat others with the Gospel or to compromise the truth in an attempt to win them over. After all, v16 states, "It does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I feel most certain that if God "proved" his existence undeniably to me, that I would not be bored or feel "unplugged" as a result. Rather I would feel relieved and excited about the next phase in heaven and the New Earth. Whether he did it at once to the whole world "Hey! It's me!" or if he did it just to me personally, I would welcome it.
However, until that happens we're left with faith. And believe me, I'm working on it, but it sure would be easier if He just popped in for a visit.
every one always answers a question with nothing but nonsense..to every one answering, you should admit you have not a clue as to why God doesn't show himself..I personally think he is ashamed of how we have evolved..maybe we should have stayed up in the trees for a few more centuries and were given a test by him before any of us were allowed to walk the earth..God only knows why he stays hidden and if we're lucky we won't have to die before we all have a chance to be in his presence..
Gretchen is right when she says we have one life and one chance to get it right. Life is short, and where we spend eternity depends on what we do with the very limited time we have now. Religion is real whether God is or not, however. There are 6 major religions in the world today, and they can’t all be right. But even the ones that are “wrong” are real.
I recently wrote a post entitled Give us a Sign, and Wordpress automatically suggested reading this post also. I know it’s a little old, but expect at least of couple of my readers to click over. This post is very good by the way.
Why debate why God doesn't prove He exists? Isn't it obvious that if an all-powerful creator or God exists He doesn't want us to know for sure, otherwise we would know, wouldn't we? Or do you think He doesn't want us to know just yet? But if He does exist, why wouldn't He want us to know now? Perhaps what you really want to know is whether it is even possible for a God to exist?
religion is absolutely stupid. the bible was written as a form of government to control primitive human beings. i don't understand how adults can actually believe the silly little fairy tales in the bible. none of that crap happened. it's not possible. we're told as children that magic things don't exist…then why are we forced to have blind faith in some magical creature in the sky and believe these ridiculous magical stories? God is not real. Religion is not real. we have one life, and one chance to get it right.
With the greatest respect I can muster I think the response to the question is incredibly naive and ridiculous. Let me explain.
I am an atheist, but no atheists are fundemental (or at least they shouldnt be) because atheists have to say that if there were any proof of god (and I am not talking about the god of the gaps – a replacement for being brave and saying ‘i dont know’) then I would alter my opinions. The one easy thing for thsi to happen is for the laws of nature to be broken (objects floating, shapeshifting, animals talking etc), for god to appear in the sky to all at once etc etc.
(Religious people have no way of proving god does not exist, just as you cannot prove Thor or Fairies or the flying spaghetti monster do not exist, so it makes it easy to be a religious fundementalist).
Your argument against this kind of reveleation is that ‘we wouldnt be able to cope’. Well guess what mr naive – people arent coping! Religious wars are going on everywhere in the world so who cares if some people faint or tear their clothes – we would know and agree and…well who knows what would happen after – but it would be proof, un deniable proof of something non-material and spiritual.
But even getting away from ‘proof’ you go on to say that god has already revealed himself before. But how did he do it?? To a backward middle eastern country and to only a few local people – the rest needed to be taken on trust/faith/unreasonable sheepness.
You continue by saying that we wouldnt want to know how the story ends and that we would get bored and stop progress. Well if that doesnt sound like Mr Anderson from the matrix i dont know what does. But I personally would want to know the truth, so I choose to be Neo thankyou very much!
“And then — and in fairly short order, too – you’d become a zombie. Because there’d be no mystery left in your life” – good grief man, have you so limited your life that if that area was exposed to you you would have nothing else to do?? I pity that comment on every level.
And so to my last point, let me take 2 quotes from you:
“Our relationship with God needs to be, to us, a two-way, interactive, give-and-take, constantly exchanging sort of relationship — of essentially the same sort as we have with everyone else in our lives.”
“God develops his relationship with us individually, from inside of us: God speaks to our heart, to our soul, to our experience, in the ways we most need to hear and understand him. God loves each one of us personally”
These 2 quotes tell me that when you speak of ‘us’ you actually mean everyone who is born in the west and is lucky enough to be as healthy (?) as you. How does a child born with Downes Syndrome or Autism or any one of the hundreds of brain damaging illnesses develop a relationship with god??
What about tribes in countries that have never heard of jesus or christianity until recently (or not at all)?
What about people who have psychological problems and already have too many people talking to them inside their heads to make time to have a “a two-way, interactive, give-and-take, constantly exchanging sort of relationship”?
And what happens to these people who never have a hope of finding jesus(or any other god) – well these much loved, personally cherished people go to hell according to your ridiculous conflicting, contradictory scripture.
This is an ever present problem of christians who seem to think everyone is the same and has the same chance. You want to live in your box and not KNOW if god exists – so that you can keep up your mysterious ways which cause wars and split humans into groups and have everything on faith.
To quote your own spiritual cliches: “An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge” (proverbs!)
discuss!
Matt V
Morse, I do not believe he is "hiding" from anyone. There are signs all over the place. We just decide if we're going to believe and follow in faith, or not.
My point is that I don't need reassurance. I need the first sign.
I'm not a child. If given a personal experience, I'm relatively sure I'd become a believer. But I've never received one.
So please, when you have a free moment, ask your god why he seems to be hiding from the atheists.
I hear ya Morse. I really do. I'm a cynical control freak.
My guess on why God doesn't reveal himself in the obvious ways some of us would like him to is because it is Him and not us that is in control. And he has his own reasoning that is (probably) beyond what would make sense to me.
Morse, do you have kids? Kids they like reassurance, proof.
Mom, do you have my ___ that I gave you?
Yes, I put it in my pocked.
Let me see it, Mom.
You saw me put it in my pocked a few minutes ago. I haven't touched it since.
Let me seeeeeee it. I wanna seeeee it.
Don't you trust me?
Please? One more time, let me see it.
(Heavy sigh.)
They want proof, need it, I guess? Human nature. Reassurance feels good, even for the smallest things (like knowing your paycheck will arrive when it is supposed, knowing the garage door is shut, etc.).
God's patience is greater than mine, but sometimes I wonder if he doesn't have that heavy sigh thing going on every now and then thinking, I just showed you, you need to see again… already?
I like reassurance, too. And, sometimes wish God were sitting on his throne somewhere close enough to travel to, once in a while, see him. Yup, yup there he is. Go back to what I'm doing. How much that would change my life, I don't know. God seems to know, or I trust that he does. I might not like it, but it is what it is.
"To me, that sounds like a God who wants pretty much EVERYONE to know He exists and is in charge."
It does. Sadly, there is, as far as I know, no independent evidence for any of those events actually taking place. The last I checked, there wasn't even any archaeological or recorded evidence outside of the OT that the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt.
Had god wanted everyone to know, wouldn't he have arranged for as many different sources to record what he did as possible?
"at some point you need to rely on what someone else has said about God to have faith God."
Here's where I have an issue. According to many Christians, they have had incredibly convincing person experiences of god. God has, in fact, come down and proved himself to them.
And apparently he's very picky about this. Because no matter how many times I've prayed or asked for an answer, I've received nothing.
Why should I rely on what other people say when all these people are walking around and saying their god is giving them personal experiences? Seems a tad unfair, doesn't it?
S:
"If God came today, for 10 minutes and yelled at us from the clouds, it would be disputed within seconds of his disappearance, wouldn’t you suppose?"
Sure it would be disputed. But if your god actually cared about being proved true, he'd stick around to answer all the disputes. Being god, I assume he could do so.
There is nothing short of thundering from the sky and ending life on earth as we know it, that would convince us, permanently, that there is a God. (Which, in time, will happen, as predicted in the Bible, right?) If God came today, for 10 minutes and yelled at us from the clouds, it would be disputed within seconds of his disappearance, wouldn't you suppose? Even Jesus knew that we could not be satiated for long and that many of us would dispute his holiness.
Jesus healed, he performed miracles. May have not been today, in today's time. And if it were, many of us probably wouldn't believe it anyway.
(I'm laughing at the term indisputable because I can't imagine a miracle that wouldn't be disputed by someone and disbelieved by many – no matter how big a miracle it was. Remember, in the Bible, a LOT of influential people said Christ had a demon.)
(**fails miserably to resist the atheist bait**
)
"The way that would do us the most good was to show himself in the middle of a desert amongst mostly illiterate people with no mass communication and no extra-biblical reports of his existence?"
Well… He DID show Himself in the middle of (at the time) a very powerful empire and systematically humiliate each of its gods and destroyed its economy. (Exodus, first 12 or so chapters) Then, while these "mostly illiterate people with no mass communication" were wandering around in the middle of the desert, He helped Israel defeat a few more civilizations.
So 40 years later the inhabitants of one the best fortified cities in Canaan are terrified (Joshua 2) of a bunch of ex-slaves, because of God's plagues on Egypt, and the destruction of the Amorite kings.
To me, that sounds like a God who wants pretty much EVERYONE to know He exists and is in charge.
And, not to go to far off topic, but what one sign, wonder, or miracle could God perform, given enough time and distance, that would not be re-interpreted to NOT prove God's exisitance?
The people at Sinai who saw God thundering from that mountain were convinced…. for a while. But given enough time, you have to rely on other people telling you the story – or not.
Unless you are going to argue that God needs to perform an obvious and (ha!) indisputable miracle for each and every age and civilization of mankind – at some point you need to rely on what someone else has said about God to have faith God.
Maybe take out the part of "doing us the most good," and fill that in with something along the lines of it being appropriate/pleasing to Him.
I guess He felt that should suffice? For the time being.
To say "God works in mysterious ways," would just seem cheesy. But, it is true. As a human, it might be our desire to have him just, come on and bop us over the head with it; answer me – speak to me, show me some miracle or something, darnit!!!. And maybe he does, at times, but we're too flawed to see it. As prideful (skeptic) humans
The way one person shows something like love (non-tangible, can't really be "proven") is different than the way another might. I may make dinner for my husband as an act of love and to prove the existence of my love for him, but my love-filled dinner might not measure up to his criteria. It doesn't change the fact that I love him and that love exists.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to "pick the brain of God" and be able to KNOW? For whatever reason, belief and faith, are an essential part of Christianity. You can't prove them, or bop someone on the head with it*, but it is there. And that, to me, seems to be very much part of God's plan. Giving us just enough to foster those thoughts and feelings, while leaving mystery.
*Although, it is highly curious when you hear testimonies of people with no former proclamation of a desire for Christ to enter their lives, and they are hit with an "Anointing" of the Holy Spirit that they simply can't deny. That is some powerful evidence, but still raises a skeptical brow.
"He proved it in the way he felt would do us the most good and many of us still don’t believe. And it wasn’t enough."
This may prove to cause more trouble than it's worth, and for that I apologize. But, I need to ask.
The way that would do us the most good was to show himself in the middle of a desert amongst mostly illiterate people with no mass communication and no extra-biblical reports of his existence?
I know I'm just a prideful skeptic, but to me that sounds like someone who doesn't want people to know he exists.
God has already proved his existence. Remember Jesus? And.. the Bible? His living word?
That's my simply complicated answer.
He proved it in the way he felt would do us the most good and many of us still don't believe. And it wasn't enough. That is human nature.
Example: Child desires toy. Take a child to the store that has toys, not good enough – she wants to look at the toys. Let her look, not good enough – she wants to touch, to play. Let her play with a toy, not good enough – she wants to bring the toy home. Bring it home and she plays with it for a bit before becoming bored desiring more. It can take a LOT to satiate a human, and some of us are purely insatiable.
God communes with us through/by/with the Holy Spirit, and, though millions of people have said they feel it, some have heard from God and speak about it – there is still disbelief. There is nothing more, really, that God can do, save coming back and revealing himself to us. Which, he said he will.
Bless you! Your post was awesome; really touched my heart! Everything you said is SOOOO TRUE!
Well, thank you, Stella. I really appreciate your kind comment.
It seems to me that if God showed that He exists to everyone in the world, at once, and in different languages….that it would be an easy task for Him and not a logistical nightmare.
If He did so, we would not loser purpose, become bored, be ruined, etc. but just the opposite. Mankind would realize that the Bible is indeed the Word and that God is with us. Our behavior would change from that of sin and then asking forgiveness, to that of obeying the commandments as we should.
I think it would be a good thing and I do at times, wonder why God doesn't give us some sort of sign that He really is here and He really does care.
" The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. "
(Psalm 14:1 )
Guess GOD had 'em pretty well 'pegged' , Huh ?
God BLESS YOU ALL –
Pastor Mike
I fear it’s obnoxious to say, but I address much of what you’re here asking in my post, “Evil: Surprise! It’s a Good Thing!” It’s here:
http://johnshore.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/evil-surprise-it%e2%80%99s-a-good-thing/
John, I don’t mean to be irreverent, please believe me, but I really don’t understand your explanation about why God prefers to hide his existence. I know, I know, we’re supposed to see His wonders all about us, but I also see horrors all about us. I’ve been told that the horrors aren’t of God but of the ‘adversary,’ that horrors done in God’s name are actually done by very sadly disturbed people. I can accept that; in fact, I must accept that. Many of my doubts center around the problem of evil, naturally. But there rests my greatest problem, I think. It is as though two levels of moral conduct exist, Gods’ and Man’s. If God does truly permeate the universe, and a child steps off a curb into oncoming traffic and is struck and killed or at best seriously injured, then we call it a tragic accident, though presumably God was present and could have intervened. Now, given the same circumstances, if you or I were standing by that child when she made that bad choice to run though traffic, and if it had been in our power to grab her arm and pull her back to safety, what moral (and quite possibly legal) judgement would have befallen us if we had decided not to save her? I think we would be justly considered hideous people for not helping. So, if we are to at least try to do our best for one another, why does God just standback? Remember, I’m just an amateur in these matters and have probably missed something fundamental that would ease my mind over this apparent contradiction in moral responsibility, but I can’t help thinking that a clear, unequivocal revelation by God of His actual existence might make such ambiguous or paradoxical situations easier to understand. If His physical revelation made faith irrelevant, there’s a part of me that has to say, “So what”? I would have seen God in the flesh so to speak. Would that really turn life into a boring, plodding existence? Could someone actually come face-to-face with the creator of the universe and live out the rest of his life bored as a result? Or would such sure and certain knowledge be a boon to the rest of one’s life? War, crime, abuse…wouldn’t such potential criminals be more than a little deterred if they had seen the God of the Universe?
Thanks for listening to my ramblings, John. All the best.
Amen to that, brother.
Dear John,
Yes you are ofcoure right. Ultimatily man is the most intelligent of all. We can only hope, with all the awarness, this intellgent animal, he will make the right decisions for our and our childrens future. Amen!
Yeah, I mean, what’s not arguable is that we humans ARE the most intelligent species on earth. Duh. Of course we are.
Whether or not that’s a GOOD thing is, as you’re saying, a whooooole other question. So far, it doesn’t seem to be our greatest asset.
Well. Actually, it seems to me that humans need to be either a whole lot MORE intelligent, or a whole lot less.
Dear John,
Hello, I think you missunderstood my friend, I meant, we suppose to be the most intellegent of all animalls on this earth, right. I mean all those great inventions. I enjoy every one of them, I won’t be hipocryt , but tell me what good in the END haveTHESE INVENTION BY INTELLGENT MEN. I need to tell you what it is doing to the ozone layer. Oh we have all the comforts our grandparents lacked, but they lacked all these wonderfull machines to make thire work easier, but far were more healthier than we or our are children today. Would you not call man unintelligent, when knowing all the harm, but it is being done, again and again. Would you not agree, that the amount of money spent on armed forces, could feed the hungry of our world. Can we not see others as we see ourselves and trust each other by working togather to make this world safe. Oh We build weapons so they build them too. Weapons that I hope to god won’t be used to distroy his earth. So many people have (innocent children and women) died when there was no reason. Why look back, in our own time, look what happened to the World Trade Center. Would any of those people do you think were ever responsible for what happening in the middle east. If man was intelligent would he go around destroyi;ng his world. If he was clever, he would build better world, not the one which can go up in wanted to say that basically, man was too stupid to see the distruction all around him, which ofcourse is the result of his intelligence. Thanks for replying.
P.s. Please forgive me for errors in typing, I usually get carried away!
You make many great points here, of course.
All I was asking for is your vote for MOST intelligent species. But never mind. Of course you'll end up having to say it's man. And I know you're making a point beyond that. Good job!
Why? when man has reached the moon and deep space. He has cure for almost everything, sea will no long remain an enigma. World is shrinking everyday, thanks to the internet, which gives me space to air my thinking. Why they would I call man the most UNINTELLIGET OF AL THE SPIECES ON THIS EARTH. Because, instead of injoying our gains, we are forever in a battle with this world. Who is the most superior race, and what kind of god people should believe , waging bloody battles throughtout the history of mankind. For What? I don't think god had this in mind, maybe we should read the just the ten commandments of any race, for I am sure they would be pretty much the same, and leave the rest! The simple commandments are best and make more sense, a better soscity would come out of it. As for our religious caretakers, well the less said the better. Dividing counties and contents, and various shades of colored skin, through their preachings, instead of advocating peace and love. No matter what they(the head of all religion)say, people just need to remember that we all share that beginning cell and that we all live and have the same home address.
GALEXY, Milky Way,
Third from the Sun
EARTH
Polulation: 4 Billion and rising!
Don't you think instead of wasting money on useless weapons of distruction, our esteemed leaders should be building friendships and advocating peace. After all, it would be the greatest sin of all, to destroy the only home, you will ever have at least in your life time.
Oh, shoot. You had me until your assertion that humans are the least intelligent species on earth. The only way that could make any sense at all is if you're defining the word "intelligent" in a way that has no relationship whatsoever with any way in which the word is or ever has been used. If man is the LEAST intelligent species, then what are you voting for most?
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