Hello, atheists! Thanks for reading this!
As you probably know, I’m a Christian.
Wait! Come back! I won’t try to convert you!
Even better: I (along with my incomprehensibly vast company of Christian readers) will actually listen to you.
Oh, stop it. A Christian actually listening to you isn’t that rare.
Now then, here’s my Big Question to you: As a zero-tolerance-for-God sort of person, how do you process your guilt? I promise I’m not being facetious, or playing any kind of ”Let’s trap the atheist” game; I’m genuinely curious. For the first 38 years of my life I was most emphatically not a Christian—I was and remain a huge fan of philosophy generally, Zen Buddhism particularly, and what I guess you could call the religion of art—and I never used to know what to do with my guilt.
I mostly just waited for it to fade away, and then disappear altogether.
Except my experience was that my guilt never faded away and disappeared altogether. Despite my determined efforts to shun it, it always just sort of … remained, hanging around inside me like some creepy, vaporous organ I could have totally lived without, disturbing my sleep.
Anyway, what I always did when I got serious about my guilt was to passionately resolve to do better. If I treated my wife snarkily, or … I don’t know … took too many long lunches at my job, or spent money I shouldn’t have buying booze or pot and then behaving in ways even less likely to win me any Husband of the Year award, I always fervently resolved to change my ways.
“That’s it! ” I would cry. “From this moment forth, I shall be a veritable pillar of strength! Strong! Resolute! Incorruptible! Insusceptible to temptation! I will become a man worthy of the woman I married!”
But, then … you know: Who can take a lunch in half an hour? I’m a chewer.
And am I not supposed to ever buy beer?
And if a friend of mine in the parking lot of the factory I work in offers to get me high before my shift starts, then … well, then I’ll be sittin’ in that guy’s car sharing whatever he’s got faster than you can say, “Um. Dude. Is that clock right?”
The point is: I personally always had exactly zilch in the Exert Your Will To Better Yourself department.
Which inevitably left me again suffering new, fresh guilt over the way I’d treated my wife, or my money, or my employer, or my body, or some other confounded thing or another.
And you, atheist, surely suffer guilt as I did. I know we Christians can sometimes seem awfully arrogant, but we’re not so arrogant that we think only we possess a conscience. We know that everyone has one.
We know what any fool does: All people hold within them expectations and desire for themselves that they constantly and inevitably fail to live up to.
We know that that’s one of the pains of everyone’s life. (Or we should know it, anyway, since it’s true.)
So. If you’re an atheist (or even a New Ager, if you would) what do you do with the guilt that you engender in yourself whenever, at someone else’s cost, you act selfishly, or greedily, or harshly, or arrogantly, or … secretly bad? (And please don’t say you never act that way, or never suffer guilt if you do. Even if you do think that, don’t ever say it. No one over the age of six will believe you. Well. Four.)
I daresay you know what we Christians do with our guilt. (Though I have to say how likely I think it is that you actually don’t know that. Which isn’t your fault! But it’s a fact that if we Christians have long failed at anything, it’s making clear to non-Christians what exactly we mean when we use words such as “repentance” and “confession.” Unless you’ve spent considerable time studying, reflecting upon, and actually experiencing what Christians mean by, say, those two particular words, trust that your relationship to them is equal to the relationship a person looking at a diorama of an African veldt has to actually being on an African veldt.)
So, again: How, atheist (or New Ager), do you process your guilt? What is the means by which, after you have in effect soiled yourself, you come to feel clean again?
And to again be clear: All respect to you. I’m truly curious.
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By the way, I’m a Psch nurse and that guy above me, Dave, sounds as if he is sociopathic. That would allow him to cheat on his wife, steal and have no remorse. He isn’t a strong character because he has no guilt he is just one with a mental illness. My bet is that he has a father with alcoholism or has it himself.
Hi I suppose I'm an agnostic. When I was much younger(I'M 51 now) I had the strangest experience. It was on Easter am. It sounded as though angels were singing and then I was filled with the most incredible feeling as though I was part of everything and everything was part of me. It was a very moving and spiritual experience. All through my life I have known people who say they are Christians, who go to church and then do the worst things or talk behind others backs. An ex boyfriend met this girl and she converted him. Everything was "god" this and "god" that . Well she ended up really hurting him and their 3 children by having affairs. I've just seen too many people commit sins then think they can wipe the slate clean by confessing. How about never doing the sin in the first place. Conducting your life with honor and grace? Often metal illness erupts in delusions of Christ and have you seen those people who twirl with rattle snakes because they believe it says so in the bible? How about those people who take the bible literally and tell a person they can or can't do something because of something that was written in a 2000 year old book. Jesus reminds me of a cult leader. I do not believe he did all those miraculous things. I think it's silly to still worship a man who died so long ago. Our minds are what should be worshiped. We are so capable and so gifted. See what we have accomplished in this world since the bible was penned. We only use a small portion of our brain. We are capable of great things yet to be seen.Idispel my guilt by talking with myself and reolving not to do the thing that has caused me to feel uncomfortable again.I rarely have to do this as I run my life in a pretty upstanding manner.If I fub up with the kids or something I just feel that it's a human mistake and I resolve to try harder. I certainly do not need to ask Jesus or God for forgiveness that is just a silly notion to me. Ahigher power to me is a huge brain our brain. It's like electricity. When we die the electricity is still there just not in this body. I am rambling
Lindy
Ah. Welcome to my life, then. You’re a writer!
just got carried away i guess sorry sometimes i just get on a roll and things just end up typing themself
Dave: nice look at your life and mentality. Sounds great! Not sure what the burst of hostility at the end was all about, though…
well not really caring about religion as a whole, i was brought up christian. but have since just not cared. it seems that everything we do in the eyes of religion is a sin. we are born with sin and even when we die its a sin. how messed up is that. sure i may be only 29, but believe me i have done a lot of “grown-up” things in my short life. i had sex way before i was married, cursed at my parents growing up, vandalized property, disobeyed probably most of the commandments. yet some how i have been married for 10 years, have a successful job and a happy family. my kids are some of the brightest in their class and are well above their respected grade level ( i have 3 kids by the way). i threw out the idea of religion when i was taking some college courses and took anthropology. wow did that just make sense…and there was something to back it up. sure we dont have the missing link to show us we came from monkeys but whatever. christians for example have a bible…but so does most every religion, and in some way or another they are almost the same…except for the author. and whats with the king james version…different versions of the same thing? its like 3 toddlers explaining what happened to the light in the livingroom. i realize im not the most creative writer among these postings but i dont really care. ive done many “bad” things in my life which im not proud of, cheating and she doesnt know, stealing from work which they dont know, the list goes on. so i have a lot of guilt, right? not really. sure i feel bad sometimes for what i do or have done, but maybe im just mental but all in all i just dont really think about it, i just do it. no remorse and no worry about consequences. I JUST DONT CARE. my guilt just goes away if i wrong someone i say oops sorry, your a big boy or girl, get over it. i dont pass the buck to my savior or whatever, i have better things to do in my life, like play golf on sundays, or hang out at gay bars with my friends ( im not gay btw). people are people, we do not have a set of rules programmed in us and our life is not predetermined….NO DESTINY!! we make choices good or bad for one reason or another…its that simple. when we die we are burried and bugs eat us. circle of life. we dont come back as a bird or an ant, or as someone else. im usually a pretty good person, i pick up a cute hitchhiker cuz she drunk…take her home safe, give someone money at the gas station cuz they dont have enough to fill their tank. i dont give to the homeless, they just need to go take a shower and apply at mcdonalds until they get on their feet. stop wanting my hard earned money…its mine. you want it you work for it….i need a new fence put up in my backyard. i will pay “immigrant” wages for you to do it. lol. anyway thats my 2 cents. like it or leave it. doesnt matter to me either way. i love my life, my family and my destructive ways of living it no matter what others say or do. its my life not yours. SO GET OVER IT!
dave
seattle, wa
I would also like to make a point of, (no i havn't read posts past 29) that you can't say that certain people are just "Christian" as a generalization to all "Christian" faiths such as prodestant, methodest, etc. I once had a girl friend who broke up with me just because i was athiest and she happened to attend a non-demoninational christen church, which seems very demoninational to me. I was catholic at the time, and it seemed weird to me because of my presumption that all "christians" were just "christians". So to simplify my point, saying that your christian or that some one else is christian has no meaning to me, because of the many definitions of christianity. I would just like a definiton of your point of views so i can understand your statement more fully.
“And you, atheist, surely suffer guilt as I did.”
Actually, no.
After reading this, I had to give ‘guilt’ some serious thought. To tell the truth, I don’t feel guilt.
I live my life the best I can and try to make the best choices possible. When I realize that I haven’t made the best choice, I learn from it. If I have negatively affected someone else as a consequence of a bad choice, I apologize and explain my rationale. I seriously don’t know how I could feel guilty for doing what I thought, at the time, was the best choice.
Guilt is an interpretation of an emotional response. This is no different than jealousy, depression, and hate. The fact is that we feel hurt, sad, or angry, respectively. How we act based on these responses leads to a state of mind. Yes, I feel hurt if cheated on, but I don’t experience jealousy. I am angry is someone takes advantage of me, but I don’t experience hate. I’ve always been very analytical (which led to love of rationality and logic), and I know that these negative states of mind are unproductive, and mostly a personal hinderance. Because of that, I react differently to situations than others do.
I hope that sheds some light on how some of us approach life’s experiences and the feelings that they produce.
The 502
oops… please excuse the many typos above…
must
have
coffee!
=)
~smj
" a Christian ALSO, in private, turns to God–or, more specifically, to Christ, whom he or she understands as the very spirit of humanity–and asks for the strength and wisdom not to AGAIN offend in that way."
I hope you were not implying that only Christians seek to not offend again. Because while I (or any atheist and most agnostics, etc) do NOT turn to God for this – I DO try to understand the nature of whatever mistake was made and learn from it, in the same attempt to gain wisdom and NOT AGAIN repeat it. The only difference is you are seeking a divine power to help out with this… where as I am seeking inner strength and general understanding.
Sounds like to me that we both (believers and non-believers) seek the same results… and often get them… and sometimes… do not.
~smj
Nice comment, Phil. Very thoughtful and intelligent. Thanks for it.
For the record, or whatever, Christians don't SUBSTITUTE the forgiveness of God for the more practical, down-to-earth dynamic wherein they do what they can to get forgiven by the actual person they wronged. That's a given: We ALL must do what we can to make amends to anyone we've wronged. The difference between non-Christians and Christians is that a Christian ALSO, in private, turns to God–or, more specifically, to Christ, whom he or she understands as the very spirit of humanity–and asks for the strength and wisdom not to AGAIN offend in that way. And asks to be forgiven not just relatively (as he or she was relative to the person they offended), but also, even, absolutely, via God.
Hello,
i didn't read all the posts, but i still wanted to answer because i read your article and was happy to find an honest question and not a badly vieled attempt to prove the other side wrong. I won't go into deep into the definitions of guilt and just try to briefly show hoe i handle things
So here i go: (note: i consider myself a atheist, age 23 )
Beginning of Scenario, i feel pangs of consiense or guilt. First step is to analyze with some logic if it was indeed a "bad" thing. If yes, and if possible i try to make ammends and/or promise to do better next time ( just as you nicely wrote in your article ). Many things however can not be amended and many situations lead to ineventable "guilt". So what i do is admit i screwed up, and also admit to myself that i do not/did not fulfill my own standards in some ways. Next step is either to readjust the standards, or to just digest it.
So far, i would say we pretty much are on the exact same level.
Now things start to split: I continue my life knowing that am "guilty" of some things and thats what i did and who i am. I don't expect everthing i did wrong to be forgiven or cleansed is some kind of way. Sure, some things can be repaid, other things can't. That's life, thats the consequence of your actions, and things have so far worked out.
I don't mean to attack you here, but just an add what strikes me as stange in faith.
I find the notion that if i wrong Joe ( name chossen at random ), somebody other than Joe can give me forgiveness or lessen the guilt strange.
anyway, hope that was what you were asking for, bye
I know I'm late to the game, but I wish to contribute because many of the other atheist respondants seem to have worked from a definition of "guilt" differing from my interpretation of your meaning. I assume that by "guilt" you mean pangs of pain that emanate from what is called the "conscience."
For the record, I rejected my Catholic upbringing at 17, and became atheist at 19. I am now 43. I have vague recollections of what it was like to be Christian.
(My understanding of conscience is influenced by Robert Wright's book The Moral Animal.") I don't believe the conscience is some Magic Moral Compass that points us toward the straight and narrow. I agree with Wright that the conscience evolved as a mechanism to foster reciprocal altruism. I recognize that the intensity of feelings of guilt and the actions that trigger guilt differ from person to person.
When I feel pangs of guilt, I first consider whether my intellect is in agreement with my emotions that I have done or are considering doing something inappropriate. If I intellectually determine my action is nothing to feel guilty about (as an example, I see nothing wrong with taking that last slice of pizza (see #86) if I haven't already had my share, but I may still feel some guilt over the action) then I do my best to ignore the feeling. If I determine the guilt is warranted, then I act as others have described above (strive to do better, possibly apologize, etc.).
(Originally I was going to use "questioning authority" as an example of an action that triggers guilt in me, but since this action triggers a "fight or flight" response, perhaps the feeling is "fear," rather than guilt. Assuming there is a distinction to be made between the two.)
Another topic that has been addressed only minimally is rationalization. I don't know whether atheists are more or less likely to rationalize behavior than are Christians, but I am certain it is quite common in both populations. (Above I rationalized breaking with a social norm based on my perceived fair share, and some Christians rationalize persecution of homosexuals based on Leviticus, to give but two examples.)
This effort to engage in non-judgemental dialog is quite refreshing, in that in my experience this is not the norm in cyberspace.
Wow… this is a great thread! And I haven’t even read it all yet. Still, I felt compelled to scroll on down to the bottom and add my 2 cents. =)
I have been on a bit of a guilt trip most of my life… and have even been recognizing that fact and asking a lot of questions myself about it these days. I was JUST posting on guilt, and similiar questions actually earlier today. Then I stumbled into here from the tags. (Cool site, btw.=)
So, how do *I* process my guilt?? Truthfully? Pretty poorly.
I don’t think I do handle guilt or deal with it very well at all. I tend to prefer to let it gnaw at me in the middle of the night when I’m trying to sleep. And, I can feel guilty over just about anything… even things that aren’t my fault. So, I am just soaking up all the ideas on this thread on ways to better process it. (Except for the idea to “apologize and be humble”. As if. That will never work!
(jussssst kidding! I apologize all the time! I’m sorry I’m sorry!).
Now, the thing is, I’m probably what you’d call “agnostic”… but, I use to be Christian. I don’t think I processed my guilt well either way. Even when I believed whole-heartedly in God, and confessed and prayed away… there just seemed to be too much guilt for even God to deal with. I picture him rolling his eyes every time he saw me kneeling down.
So, really, I don’t know that I ever really felt truly forgiven or “guilt-free”. Somehow, I don’t think I’m alone here. I gotta think there are many Christians that want to believe they are forgiven, but have a hard time really really believing that. I think, there are many good Christians that still question whether they will make it into heaven, even. Then again, maybe it’s just me.
I guess I’ll go have a glass of wine (that’s always a good way to start dealing with it), and hit the sack!
=)
~smj
I just signed up for my own account on world press.
Brother Lee Love
Hi John,
I was raised a Christian and was a lay minister, but have been a practicing Zen Buddhist for over 27 years and have been a student of Tibetan Buddhism for about 20 years.
You mention that you studied Zen Buddhism and felt that it lacked, because it didn’t deal with your guilt. What I am surprised by, is that you are not aware that there is repentance and forgiveness in Buddhism.
And, I want to clarify, because you imply that Buddhism is atheistic. It is not. In Buddhism, there is no separation between theistic and atheistic. Concepts such as atheism are primarily used by theist and non-believers who are reacting against monotheism. Buddhist and polytheist then not to encounter this difficulty. As they say back home, “We ain’t got a dog in that fight.”
If you plug repentance and Buddhism into Google, you’ll find many references to the topic.
Here are some prayers of repentance from the Soto Zen tradition that I practice:
“All the twisted karma ever created by me, since of old,
through beginningless greed, anger and ignorance,
born of my body, speech and thought.
I now make complete repentance of it all.”
From Samanthabhadra-sutra:
“The ocean of all karmic hindrances arises solely from delusive thoughts.
If you wish to make repentance, sit in an upright posture and be mindful of the true nature of reality.
All faults and evil deeds are like frost and dew.
The sun of wisdom enables them to melt away.”
In Buddhism, we try to avoid taking away guilt before the root cause of guilt is addressed. If you superficially quell your guilt, it festers under the surface.
Also, in Buddhism, the merit of repentance is given away freely to other people. This also focuses you on the root of your guilty feelings.
Here is a link related to Buddhism and guilt:
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/guilt.html
Palms together,
Brother Lee Love
I forgot to add, and I can't edit my original post, that I'm speaking of guilt in the manner that you, John, are speaking of it.
Definition of guilt:
The fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong
None of your examples is 'wrong' within the meaning of the definition (well, maybe not treating your wife as best as you can is, but not the rest). These are things you should not feel guilty about, that's absurd, really, it is. Like those people who feel guilty because they had a chocolate bar when they were on a diet, this is not an offense, crime, violation or wrong. It may be wrong, but it's not "a wrong", if you see the difference?
I needed to clarify as I wouldn't want anyone to think that I have the mindset of six year old
I don't do guilt, I believe it's a waste of time and energy, I have more productive things to do than sit and wallow in what is 'wrong', or what other people believe is 'wrong'.
If I have hurt someone, I apologise. I don't go away and stew in my wrongdoing, what's the point in that? It doesn't help me and it doesn't make the person I have hurt feel any better, does it?
I gave up religion when I was eight years old. I can't remember the reason, but I can remember the moment. To this day, a long, long way down my life path, I have not regretted that decision.
I am a moral person, I have ethics, I put my best foot forward and do the best that I can and that's all that anyone can really ask of a person.
Guilt? Um, no thanks, I have no need for it.
A true christian will explore for answers whether to science or behavior patterns in an “add or subtract” way.
Atheists hunt for answers for the reason why science says, “facts boy, only the facts”..
I am a christian who’s suffered both mentally and physically in his life and these 2 elements helped me along on the path of “Why”.
When I talk about Jesus, the Bible, christianity, its not from my experience with other christians or anyone else. I’ve learned that we really are imperfect beings who do some really strange things in our lives for strange reasons. But we are like the fish – it just does what a fish is suppose to do. But we humans can change. A fish cannot – because it has no reasoning power. Survive baby, thats what its about – in the fish’s world.
I’ve also had lots of fun on our planet. A balance has to be struck between living, loving, learning, interacting with others. We really need a God who can identify with us and help us to change.
“You gotta give it up to true reason” and sometimes our reason must be changed by a force outside our experience and philosophy.
I am speaking as one who’s been so far on the “bottom” that you would pass me up – no matter how mr. or mrs, ms. goody two shoes or atheistic or God fearing.
Christianity is based on love not legalism! Let’s stop being narrow-minded if we’ve been hurt by christians – I’ve been insulted many times by my brothers and sisters in Christ as well as by atheists. Does that mean now I can dislike and not give others a chance to like me? That’s narrow-mindedness and we humans are naturally judgemental – though I sure don’t advocate it. God bless you (I can say this too with an open heart and mind.)
. .
OH BOY!
First of all, associating atheists with new agers is just wrong. New Agers are religious people who want to eat at the buffet of religion instead of ordering a la carte. Atheists don’t even go to that restaurant.
Second, in Buddhism – a non-religion, there’s no guilt. Only correct and incorrect thought. Guilt is hanging on to the past and that’s a big no-no in Buddhism. If you do wrong to someone, you present your excuses, you try to correct the situation but as they say “life is a bridge, cross it but do not take refuge upon it”
Religious people surrender to guilt because religion is built around controlling minds through guilt with tools such as crotch-control, thought-control and so forth. I know what I speak of. I’m a Quebecer and until the 70s Québec was basically a theocracy, the kind that exist in African and Mid-Eastern countries today. Instead of Islam, we had a Catholic Theocracy so intent on controlling everything that one had to tuck his shirt with a stick because one should not accidentally touch his penis, which would be bad, you would be guilty of masturbation.
Religious people feel guilt for all sorts of supercilious reasons because they are expected to live to rules of conduct that are impossible to live up to.
The Atheist deals with guilt with less trouble. The true atheist of good morals screws up will fix his mistake, make his apologies if needed and that will be that. Because you know what? Crap happens. In extreme cases, say, you run over a child, I figure, there will be more work to do here on a psychological level, and there will be guilt, I’m certain of that. An atheist isn’t heartless that’s for sure. But on the little things such as coming home drunk, well dude, that’s the stuff life is made of. If you come home drunk every night, well you have a drinking problem. Otherwise, it’s just life. No guilt needed here.
I never feel guilty getting late to work. Crap happens. I don’t have guilt over insane sex with women, I don’t guilt over having to much fun, I don’t have guilt because I have and others don’t have because other’s have way more. Life is meant to be enjoyed to the fullest and I won’t feel guilty about that. Sometimes people get upset, yeah well just too bad. Sometimes I just come first. I can’t live my life putting everyone else first all the time. Let’s not forget that people around you will often look for a reason to get upset with you because they are unhappy with their own lives.
We rationalize what happened, we feel bad when we screw up and hurt others feelings but we don’t dwell on it forever and ever. We don’t need to confess, there’s no god to forgive us. But morality isn’t the purview of the religious.
I’ve done a lot of things in my life I’m not very proud of but I’ve come to terms with it. It comes down to being honest with yourself. If you are, you won’t feel guilt forever.
“Dude: You are looking at this WAY too one-dimensionally. (Though, let me say, I do understand the truth behind what your’e saying. What you’ve got to understand is that all the sane, normal Christians are in, like, church. It’s all the CRAZY ones who are on TV.)”
According to a recent USA Today Opinion poll, half of Americans believe the world started 6,000 years ago when a talking snake tricked a woman into eating illegal fruit. Those same Americans want to teach that in my schools to my children. That, my friend, is mental child abuse.
Is that one-dimensional? Are those creationists televangelists or regular Americans?
In other news, according to Angus Reid Global Monitor, 61% of Americans wouldn’t vote for an atheist president.
Since 93% of scientists are atheists, and coincidentally, also are most brilliant minds, what does that say about Christian influence in our country?
Is that looking at the science vs. religion clash as one-dimensional? I’m just saying that Christians like you are in the minority. And I still don’t understand how you’re able to reconcile your faith with science.
Um. I’m afraid that saying there’s lots of proof that Christianity “doesn’t even exist” sort of automatically renders you untalkabletoable. Perhaps you’d like to rephrase that … exceptionally wrong statement?
Uh. Yeah. It's a mystery.
hello john i am an athiest i actually dont belive in god i was wondering why you even belive in god. there are so many things that can prove christianity doesnt even exist.
“All the Crazy ones are on TV”
Crazy: Maybe-Industrious:Most Definitley
My favorite is Benny Hynn(Sp?)
I guess he’s trying to get people to buy him a lear jet. You know, so he can spread the gospel.
And for a donation of 1,000 USD, you can have a little plaque put on the inside of his plane, so you can be with him to spread the gospel.
Now obviously i have no problem with those who manage to make a living through their religion. By speaking about their religion, or working on behalf of their religion, or even by running a ministry or whatever the case may be but…
DID JESUS REALLY SAY YOU NEEDED YOUR OWN JET?
Sorry, has nothing to do with the topic.
Yeah, and I don't of course mean to imply that all televangelists are crazy. I'm just saying that when all you know of Christianity is what you get from mainstream media, you've got … well, as skewed a version of it as that media gives us all of us about everything..
Here's what I'm saying: I PERSONALLY have nothing whatsoever against science, and I don't know a Christian who does. The idea of being "against" science is, of course, insane. And you have GOT to realize that It's as absurd to characterize all Christians as being anti-science as it is to characterize all atheists as cat sacrificing Satan worshippers.
Do you personally know ANY Christians? I'm not sure I've EVER met a Christian who was "against" science.
So let me say it again: I have virtually nothing but love for science. My best friend for the past 15 years, in fact, is a scientist. (He's a chemistry professor in the Cal State University system.) My wife is a science freak. I'M a science freak.
Dude: You are looking at this WAY too one-dimensionally. (Though, let me say, I do understand the truth behind what your'e saying. What you've got to understand is that all the sane, normal Christians are in, like, church. It's all the CRAZY ones who are on TV.)
I don't know how to say this without sounding arrogant. Look at the level of debate, intellect, reflection, insight, and simply choice of words used by atheists. And we're considered immoral heathen…..
John – there is a painfully obvious clash between religion and science. Religionists have always painted scientists with the Devil's brush suggesting that their desire for knowledge is driven by evil. It would make sense though. Many scientists are atheists – this is based on a survey of 517 members of the National Academy of Sciences. When queried about belief in a "personal god," only 7% responded in the affirmative.
And by the way, are scientists lying? Do they have an agenda? If so, what would that be? Are they biased or subscribe to a particular ideology? Are scientists simply not curious about the nature of the world, make observations, formulate hypotheses, and test their veracity? I would imagine they could care less what religion claims. They are in the pursuit of truth, not defending fairytales like Creationism, Noah's Ark, or the Tower of Babel. Those same scientists which cure diseases, alleviate famines, and make daily discoveries certainly do not fit the profile of immoral heathens who are out to "get religion." Can you imagine what our world would look like today without that human curiousity which so many Bible-believing Christians call Satanic temptation? And plus, if science had conversely proven anything in the Bible, you can bet that Christians would be applauding the scientific community and embracing their conculsions with almost hysterical enthusiasm.
Science has always trumped religion and will continue to do so in the future. Facts always triumph over any factually-devoid ideology like religion.
"Ah. Perhaps you see why I began my statement with “I see no …”, rather than with, “There is no ….”
That's your entire response? You didn't address anything.
Sort of off-topic…
Pat said: "As a Christian, you would probably feel guilty if you masturbated, or had pre-marital sex, or missed church on Sunday, or some other rediculous rule implemented by the church."
Omgosh, do nonbelievers really think that's what Christians are like?
Are some Christians really like that, and that's why Pat thinks that way? Nevermind, that sentence just made my eyes wiggle, and I had to say something. Ridiculous, indeed.
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