By way of comments to my last post, To Single Women: Men Don’t Change, I heard from a considerable number of women who basically got burned in relationships by guys who turned out to be less Prince Charming than … Burpy, the Village Dolt.
So that got me thinking about what women might be able to do in order to discover what their potential life-mate is really made of, who the man behind the Dating Curtain really is. So then I thought of these six tests a woman can use to discover whether or not the man you’re dating is Mr. Right, or … Mr. Lite. (No! Mr. Blight! No—Mr. Mite! Mr. Plight! No, no: Mr. Trite!! Okay, moving on. Sorry. I have some sort of … rhyming dysfunction.)
The Mr. Right Test #1: Get into real knock-down, drag-out fight with him
You can tell just about everything you need to know about a person by the way they fight. You simply do not know someone until you’ve had a fight with them. My wife and I have saying: A relationship is only as good as its first fight. People go crazy when they fight; what you want to know about your man is how crazy does he go, and how fast—and how much time he spends in Crazyland once he’s gone there. If in the heat of a real argument your man does a pretty good job of sticking to the point, or tends to ratchet the hostility down, or if he actually listens to the things you’re saying, then that’s a beautiful sign. But if he goes vicious, or starts attacking you personally by going after weaknesses that in love you’ve shared with him before, or (God forbid) gets in any way physical, that, too is a sign. A “Wrong Way” sign.
The Mr. Right Test #2: Go on a cross-country drive with him
People are pretty good at keeping their stuff together for predetermined lengths of time. But you spend two weeks with someone in a car, and it’s like dragging Dracula outside at high noon: Who they really are becomes very clear. On a long road trip, there’s nowhere for a man to hide. Sooner or later his smooth and yummy outer layer will wear off, and his inner chewy nuttiness will be revealed. Plus, a lot of unexpected stuff happens on a road trip: You get lost, a tire blows, the campsite doesn’t hold your reservation, etc. Anyone does well when things are going well; a road trip is sure to show you how your man reacts when things go like they always go in life, which is contrary to plans.
The Mr. Right Test #3: Have him care for you when you’re really sick
One (emphasize: one) of the reasons men love women so much is because women are just so darn pretty. Well, get ugly around your man for a change, and see how that works for you. Get biologically ugly: sneeze a lot, and wipe your nose on your sleeve—no, on his!—and cough like you’re trying to turn yourself inside out, and keep your hair all matted-up and funky, and just … exude Maximum Grossness. (Well, maybe not maximum grossness. No need to get arrested or anything.) How does he behave while you’re practically croaking on your couch? Is he patient, sympathetic, loving, attentive? Or does he (eventually) act like you being sick is really a drag that he wishes you’d stop? The former, of course, is great; the latter could make for one ceremony-wrecking flashback when the officiate at your wedding says the part about “in sickness and in health.” Knowing Our Kind, it’s safe to guess that your man has already shown you how ready he is to at a moment’s notice play the role of your father. That’s cool—or whatever. But what you also need to know from him is how willing he is to step up, when you need it, and assume the role of loving mother.
The Mr. Right Test #4: Watch him around other women
For many reasons we won’t here delve into (socialization, hormones, insecurity, nature, the desire to confirm that they’re as irresistable as they think they are), men flirt. Cool enough; that’s probably how you were attracted to your man in the first place. But once you and he have committed to being together exclusively, the only message your man ever needs to be sending any other woman is ”I’m Sure You’re Very Cute, But Not to Me.” Next time the two of you attend a party, separate from him, and then watch him while he’s in Solo Socializing mode. If you see him consistently not flirting with batting-eyed beauties, fantastic. If you do see him turning on his Mr. Spectacular show, don’t panic. At some point after the party, though, do talk to him—and for real. Tell him how his flirting with other girls hurts your feelings, and—worse, maybe—how it does makes you look like a fool. If he sees and understands the truth of that, and so agrees to never flirt again, that’s great: relationships are about honing and smoothing. But if, knowing how flirting does and must make you feel, he continues to flirt with other women, then he’s being very clear about not only who he is, but about whom he expects you to be.
The Mr. Right Test #5: Watch how he treats service personnel
Waiters, busboys, doormen, janitors, maids, parking attendants, delivery people, store clerks … a man’s character is revealed by how he treats such people in his life. If towards service personnel or those beneath him professionally your man is brusque, dismissive, or in even the slightest way condescending, then as sure as sharks bite he’s going to start treating you that way, too. It’s just not possible for a man who doesn’t treat everyone with respect to respect you. It’s a symptom of a problem he has that you’re not going to be able to fix. Get out right away, or go down trying.
The Mr. Right Test #6: Watch how he loses
Everyone wins well: in victory, everyone is gracious, magnanimous, humble, sweet, etc. How a guy loses, however, tells you who he is. Be with your man sometime when he loses a game of some sort that he wanted or expected to win. (Bonus points if you’re the one who beats him.) Watch very carefully how he responds to defeat. A real winner knows it’s about remaining a winner, no matter the score.
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Posted by Carey on November 12, 2007 at 10:06 am
I like your points. I’d add one though – “How does he treat his mother/sisters?” Try to get into a situation where it won’t be “cover-up” time, but a real situation. See how he deals with them there. Is there respect? Honest but understanding discussion? Is there a humility about him that allows for a woman to teach him something?
Posted by Seduction and Relationships » Blog Archive » Six Tests To Determe If He’s Mr. Right on November 12, 2007 at 10:23 am
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Posted by YEN on November 12, 2007 at 10:27 am
I find your blog very entertaining. I think i’ll be one of your frequent visitor from now on. it’s good to read these things from a man’s perception, and it is really helpful for us females to fathom our partners. thanks for all these tips.
Posted by John Shore on November 12, 2007 at 10:32 am
Carey: You know, I was going to put that as one of my “test”–and you make a very good case for why I might have. Ultimately, though, I decided not to use it, because I’ve actually found that how a man treats his mother isn’t a great indicator for how he’ll treat his spouse. Men have such intense, specialized kinds of relationships with their mothers, and so much about that relationship is so entirely unique, that I haven’t found the dynamics of the relationship between son and mother necessarily translate at all to the relationship that a man has with his girlfriend/wife. I’ve know too many guys who treat their moms GREAT, and their girlfriends/wives terribly. But maybe you’ve had a different experience than I.
Yen: How extremely kind of you. Thank you.
Posted by Morse on November 12, 2007 at 10:43 am
Dude, you’re ruining this for all of us! Stop giving away our secrets!
Posted by John Shore on November 12, 2007 at 10:47 am
You know, I actually kind of DID think that?? Too funny. But then I was like, “Screw it. I’m old. I’ve been married forever. Guys are on their freakin’ own.”
Posted by odgie on November 12, 2007 at 10:54 am
This is good stuff, and I am going to make sure that my wife sees it and passes it on to her single friends, many of who get habitually burned by men who flunk one or more of these criteria.
My wife and I have been through all of these. The toughest one was learning how to fight. We have completely different communication styles. I yell because I come from a family of yellers; we yell when we are happy or angry. We are just loud people. Her family does not get loud; they are mostly even-tempered people and Type B personalities.
Me learning to express myself without yelling and her learning that when I yell I am not necessarily yelling at her has been the biggest transition so far.
Posted by Morse on November 12, 2007 at 11:22 am
Don’t make me get out my protest signs, John.
Posted by Billy B on November 12, 2007 at 11:56 am
Will we be getting the Six signs for Ms. Right or will Cat have to write that one? I pass the test above with flying colors, I’m such a great looser
Posted by Michele on November 12, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Great list!
I was really happy that a MAN said what John put up under Number 4.
Now, for another fun mind game:
A man (or a woman for that matter) can be thought of as flirty if they convey the message:
“I’m Really friendly and out-going and I’d love to have you in my circle of friends”
(Like a good friend of mine, who is also very committed to his wife)
Or – “I am the center of the universe and I just need to hear you acknowledge this”
Or – “I like you and think you’re cute. I’d probably go out with you if I weren’t attached”
How do you can you tell what message a person is conveying?
How can you tell what message YOU are conveying if you’re a really friendly person?
(The “I wish I could date you” and “I’d love to have you in my circle of friends” can get mixed up SO easily.)
Posted by Michele on November 12, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Sorry, that last post was from me, Second Michele.
(Gives another shout-out to first Michele, and wonders sadly where she has gone.)
Posted by washedandforgiven on November 12, 2007 at 3:00 pm
John! Be nice to those of us who have yet to get hitched… you’re ruining things! *bashes over head with a book*
Second Michele…
ouch. I need to let my best friend read that one…
Posted by Six Tests to Determine if He’s Mr. Right « Wit or Wisdom on November 12, 2007 at 3:04 pm
[...] Six Tests to Determine if He’s Mr. Right 12 11 2007 From author John Shore’s blog, Suddenly Christian. [...]
Posted by Determined Disciple on November 12, 2007 at 3:59 pm
John, I completely agree with your “tests,” but I now have this shockingly un-PC response: My own husband would *fail* at most of those tests, and it’s okay with me. Women readers, I am NOT advocating my own personal life course, which has involved loving and marrying men (this is my second marriage — I’m not a polygamist or anything) who did not meet John’s criteria BEFORE or even long AFTER I married them. But I will say this much, ladies: If your heart simply bleeds for the man you’re with, if your adoration for him knows no bounds and can even rise above the daily moments of heartbreak and disappointment, then you know something of my love for my husband. It’s the love I should have had for my first husband… but instead, I chose to see that one as a *failure* (especially in these areas, but also in the VERY IMPORTANT area of faith) unworthy of my “perfectness,” and I — the so-called believer in the marriage — eagerly divorced him. Now I am in another marriage where the Prince is something quite short of Charming (except to everyone else, for whom he can turn on the charm like switching on a floodlamp), and yet, I love him and wouldn’t trade him for the most caring, patient, respectful, humble, God-fearing man in the world. He is my Simon, but my heart sees him as Peter. He is my Saul, but my heart sees him as Paul. He is nowhere near “perfection,” not even in ways I probably should have waited for or searched elsewhere for, but neither am I. And in this glorious marriage, I am learning deeply of God’s love for us, particularly the “while we were still sinners” feature of His love… and the “not that I have attained [perfection]” aspect of His forgiveness.
John — and anyone reading this epic response — I agree that these characteristics are good measuring tools for women who are not yet married. But if you are married, and your husband fails to meet the mark in one or more — or all — of these “tests,” do not suppose you married the wrong man. I do not know WHY the Lord allowed you to marry him (I include myself in that statement), but I do know that loving an *unlovable* and often *despicable* person is one of best ways to both glorify God and grow closer to to reflecting the image of Christ.
The road of this kind of marriage is not easy to travel, nor is the journey often rewarding in ways that we humans desire (and regard as proof that we made the wise/right/godly choice), and I am not about to trumpet my successes in “being content regardless of my circumstances”… I have precious few such successes in my personal history, and they’re all God’s work, anyway… But it is a road God allows many of us, like me, to travel upon, and He doesn’t seem to want me to look backward, pining for a smoother or pleasing path that I COULD HAVE/WOULD HAVE taken, but rather to learn His brand of love — agape. He pours out His agape for us as His children, but He knew in his infinite wisdom that the hardest and yet most profound way for us humans to practice and develop our own agape for others would be in marriage. Parents tend to love their children almost naturally (even despite the children’s transgressions), and I do believe that agape is developed in a parent-child relationship, as God graces us, His children, with it. But loving a person YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO CHOOSE as your life’s mate, and loving him not “also when” but ESPECIALLY when he fails to match your hopes/dreams/expectations/criteria, is a miraculous love that can only be called agape. It is God’s love — not just his “kind” of love, but truly His love poured out into you and through you.
I fully advocate seeking godly wisdom and discernment before and during the spouse-choosing process. But if you’ve already chosen him, and he sins and falls short of these measures, I would advocate asking God to enable you to discern how you can “love the one you’re with.” I’m sure you would hope and pray that your husband would seek out the same discernment in his relationship with you!
)
Posted by 6 ways to tell if your boss is a good one? « Millard Fillmore’s Bathtub on November 12, 2007 at 4:18 pm
[...] boss is a good one? Oh, if only. The post is advice to women wondering whether they should keep the guy or throw him back, “Six tests to determine if he’s Mr. Right.” [...]
Posted by Stef on November 12, 2007 at 5:16 pm
I wish I’d had these before I got married. Maybe I wouldn’t have, but then, I wouldn’t have the four well adjusted sons I have now. Good indicators, though. Great post, as per usual!
Posted by John Shore on November 12, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Billy B: “I’m such a great loser.”!! TOO FUNNY!!
Michele: “I wish I could date you,” and “I wish I had you in my cirlce of friends” seem to me to be easily distinguished messages, both in the sending and receiving. For one, the first is something you’d say pretty early into a relationship, whereas the second …isn’t.
Determined: Yes, I certainly was meaning to speak only to women considering marriage–not to women already married. Whole other can of worms, as you point out.
Stef: Thanks. I really appreciate your kind words. And you’re right: Four well-adjusted sons is a beautiful, beautiful thing, of course. If that’s the end, about any means was worth it, yes?
Posted by matchingsocks on November 12, 2007 at 6:04 pm
This is flat out brilliant!
Posted by Determined Disciple on November 12, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Whew… I had more on my mind and heart than I realized! Thanks for taking the time to read my response!
)
Posted by John Shore on November 12, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Matchingsocks: THANKS! I look forward to checking out your blog, which looked great the .05 seconds I was there before I had to leave…
DD: Yeah, yeah. Anytime!! It was good stuff.
Posted by Hanie on November 12, 2007 at 9:57 pm
John, great stuff. I am now one-foot out of my 17 years of marriage and your tests would have my almost-ex fail out miserably especially on Tests 1, 3,4 and 6.
Posted by joyousthirst on November 12, 2007 at 10:01 pm
I really appreciate the way you’ve laid these out so clearly. Funny how it’s easy to picture people that go with each one. Just a clueless question, though: what did you mean by the last half of this statement–”But if, knowing how flirting does and must make you feel, he continues to flirt with other women, then he’s being very clear about not only who he is, but about whom he expects you to be”?
Posted by John Shore on November 13, 2007 at 4:46 am
Hanie: So he was okay on a cross-country drive, and treated waiters and maids all right–but he was a sore loser, treated you poorly when you were sick, and flirted with other women. Phhfft. Good riddence. (No, but I’m sorry to hear of your impending divorce. No matter what, that’s rough to go through. Usually necessary, of course: but still rough. Good luck with that.)
Joyous: I’m saying that he’s letting you know that he expects you to be the kind of woman–that being your basic doormat–who is okay with her husband flirting with other women.
Posted by noname on November 13, 2007 at 10:26 am
I can not believe you would write that. You shouldn’t be ‘testing’ people. Here’s the real six factors that make a difference:
-does he have a passion for Chirst?
-does he pray constantly and for others?
-will he respect you/ does he respect you?
-does he lead in the relationship?
-does he practice Christian disciplines to grow closer to God (fasting, studying scripture, etc.)?
-does he have realistic perspectives and expectations of the relationship?
Posted by John Shore on November 13, 2007 at 10:34 am
But aren’t those … tests you’re suggesting?
Posted by Jessica on November 13, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Well coming out of a horrible divorce, where I really had no options in it, so now I am trusting God and waiting on Him and his plans, I can say that the number one thing a girl must know about a guy is his family!!! Know them well, not just aquaintances, see how he interacts with his family, from experience I can tell you that a man will treat the family he begins with you very similiar to the way he treats his childhood family, unless he has given his life completely over to God and God makes changes in him.
Posted by Hjordes on November 13, 2007 at 1:19 pm
John, these were so good that I’m printing this out for our “Family Album”… stuff we keep that is Absolutely Essential to Having a Great Life. You really have to score high to get in The Album. *claps for John*
I’m going to add on to my personal list something that really showed me the mettle of my husband… How he responds to your life crises (yep, that really is plural for Crisis – I had to look it up =P).
Does it annoy him that you are suddenly involved in something that is not him? Or does he set his own desires aside, step up to the plate, and start hitting home runs for you?
Posted by Hjordes on November 13, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Re: noname…. you said:
“will he respect you/ does he respect you?
does he have realistic perspectives and expectations of the relationship?”
And how do you discover those things? Through normal life events.
Such as fighting and driving.
(As far as the God stuff goes, I personally leave my husband’s relationship with God in his and God’s hands as I don’t attend God’s Senior Staff Meetings where He might tell me just how “good” of a Christian my husband really is.)
Posted by meigh on November 13, 2007 at 8:02 pm
thanks for these. they’re very handy. i’ll put them in my make-up kit.
Posted by Is he Mr.Right? « Fags and failure every night on November 13, 2007 at 8:22 pm
[...] November 14, 2007 Posted by Sexy in Random, Teehee. trackback Got this from this blog and thought I should share with you girls. Hehehe. Six Tests to Determine if he’s Mr [...]
Posted by John Shore on November 13, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Meigh: You crack me up.
Posted by Tests To Determine Mr Or Miss Right? « Life Is One Big Stage on November 13, 2007 at 11:37 pm
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Posted by MM on November 13, 2007 at 11:43 pm
You are so right about the tests and I did all of it (I don’t know if intentionally or unintentionally hahaha) except number 2. I believe I found my Mr. Right.
God is sooo good to me!
Posted by Byron Lewis on November 14, 2007 at 5:58 am
While I agree all of these circumstances will reveal the true man behind the mask and that a single woman needs to gain as much information about a prospective spouse as she can, I am a bit concerned about what seems to be staged manipulation in your first point regarding fighting.
I don’t think it is a good idea to pick or start a fight as a “test” in a relationship. Disagreements will come on their own during the “getting to know each other” period as God made each of us differently. I do not think it wise to fabricate an argument or fight to test and see if this is the man, the Mr. Right, for her.
Posted by John Shore on November 14, 2007 at 6:02 am
MM: How lovely! How fun. Mr. Right so … totally rocks.
Byron: Yeah, no, I wasn’t suggesting STARTING a fight with anyone, just to test their character. I know it kind of reads like that, which is my fault. I just meant that getting into a fight with someone DOES show you who they are.
Posted by Skerrib on November 14, 2007 at 9:03 am
Noname, I agree that the criteria you mentioned are outstanding…in a global sense. However I can think of any number of men I’ve come in contact with over the years who meet all of those and yet I’d still want to poke out my eyeballs if I married them. I think it’s necessary to get more specific when you’re considering such a big commitment as marriage.
If I might add my own, and the most valuable one I’ve picked up from within my marriage–watch how he responds when you or anyone else sets a reasonable boundary with him. This relates to Odgie’s learning how to fight…disagreements, conflict resolution, and all that. Really important stuff, and all the better if you address it before you’re “stuck.” Terrible word. Before you’re “enshrouded in matrimonial bliss.” Better.
Posted by iDOworship on November 14, 2007 at 11:00 am
I just loved this article! It was so frank and funny! I have committed the 6 items to memory and whenever “he” finally decided to make an appearance in my life, I’ll be ready. lol!
Posted by John Shore on November 14, 2007 at 11:02 am
The really fun thing it to try to cram at least three of these tests into one night. Why waste time?
Posted by thinzy on November 14, 2007 at 8:17 pm
oh my! i’ve done all those tests unintentionally & i think i found my Mr. Right already but i let him go or should i say, i made him let me go… i guess he’s not that right for me after all
i still love what you blogged
& i love your other posts. keep them coming!
Posted by John Shore on November 14, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Thinzy: Wow. That was, like, a whole soap opera season in, like, thirty words. Awesome!
Posted by thinzy on November 15, 2007 at 3:37 am
ahahahha yes, you can say that, my relationship with Mr. Right was like a whole soap opera season but i enjoyed every moment of it
heck my life is like a soap opera season with all the dramas but i’m not complaining coz it helps me become stronger 
& thanks to blogs like yours, it makes me realize a lot more things
Posted by Spidey on November 15, 2007 at 4:52 am
Awesome list John….!..
Continue to say what men are thinking..! Which leads me to thinking…Why are you the only man saying it…?..LOL
Posted by John Shore on November 15, 2007 at 5:03 am
Spidey: Well, actually, my piece wasn’t so much about the way men THINK as it is about the way the ACT. Why/how men THINK the way they/we do is … a whole other can of testosterone.
Posted by Sergmummy on November 15, 2007 at 5:14 am
John, I am now 40 and still single (now courting a man who is a lot like your list mentions), I wish I could have heard from you before now. As a teenager, I hoped to be married by 25. Anyway it is not too, too late for me now. I realise a few guys are ‘put’ off by your realness – keep it up, and God Bless you richly.
Posted by From my bible study teacher on November 15, 2007 at 6:14 am
Three of these are great – Tests 4, 5, & 6 are really good ways to find out who this man really is. The 3rd one is OK only if you are really sick (if not you really have to be a believable actor) – I do think you each need to see each other when you are not at your primed and most perfect moment. The first two have some major flaws.
The Mr. Right Test #1: Get into real knock-down, drag-out fight with him – If there is a valid (or even semi-valid) reason for getting into a disagreement that could escalate into a real knock-down, drag-fight OK (perhaps). If you start one just to have one, that tells him that you will fight over basically nothing. That would encourage me to seriously consider if I wanted to spend my life with a contentious woman.
The Mr. Right Test #2: Go on a cross-country drive with him – I don’t know if it is truly practical to go on a 2 week trip with someone alone. This would certainly encourage sleeping (i.e. sex) together (why get two rooms ?). I can see where this could work if there are others present – your parents or his or both. If you are willing to have sex with him before marriage, that tells him your standards are pretty low. You also tell him you think it is OK to have sex with someone you are not married to. If you marry him, he may still think it is OK to have sex with some he is not married to (which is someone other than you).
I would add to these tests another one – Watch how he treats his own parents – particularly his mother. How he treats his mother is a good indicator of how he will treat you in years to come.
Posted by Jake on November 15, 2007 at 6:16 am
I think those six “tests” are failures in that they don’t even begin to tell half the tale, which is your feelings, words and behavior (that thought-word-deed thingy). In addition they don’t address some of the most commonly stated reasons for the break-up of marriages, e.g., Christian living (addressed by a couple of previous respondants) or financial responsibility (a “biggie” in the divorce world), and, of course all those nasties, e.g., drugs, drinking, smoking, cussin’, etc.
The bottom line is that not a man alive can actually pass those six tests (plus the others you failed to list). We’re not (quite) perfect.
The real solution to a good relationship answer lies in the response from Determined Disciple. Read it again and you’ll come to the same conclusion she has …. tolerance, compassion and love. That doesn’t mean you lie down and allow yourself to be steam-rollered. It does mean that if those tests are honestly adhered to, there will be no marriages.
Just (some of) my thoughts.
Posted by Cheryl on November 15, 2007 at 6:50 am
This was really, really good. I signed final divorce papers October 18 of this year and my ex is getting married NEXT weekend. I wish I had had this article 10 years ago before I said “I do.” I’ve sent this to all my single girlfriends. Thank you so much!
Posted by John Shore on November 15, 2007 at 6:53 am
Yeah, Jake! (Kidding!)
Thanks for writing, Cheryl (and for the kind words). AMAZING about your ex. What is THAT about? That’s … crazy. Sounds like good riddence. (Riddance? However it’s spelled?)
Posted by Linda on November 15, 2007 at 7:48 am
You know, I was thinking that some of these characteristics are good for us as females to check about ourselves as well. None of us are perfect, and I realize that the males are not always the bad guys. Sometimes we as females have contributed with our own bad qualities that through time with God and prayer, need changing and adjusting. My prayer is not only, Father, lead me to the right man, but also, Father, let Christ’s character form in me that I may be the right worman.
Posted by tin-tin on November 15, 2007 at 8:10 am
my friends always mention your blog now coz they learn a lot from it. and i just have to agree with them. and this is another proof of it. thanks for helping us ladies in understanding men, our relationships and even ourselves
Posted by Praisestohim on November 15, 2007 at 9:13 am
This is a great article. I also agree with Skerrib’s comment about observing how a guy reacts when you set boundaries. I have dated guys who really showed their true colours (and not very pretty ones) when I set boundaries with them.
Posted by John Shore on November 15, 2007 at 9:18 am
Linda: Very nice. Thank you.
Tin: Whoa. And certainly thanks for THAT.
Praise: Right: Men don’t like boundaries. We think it impinges upon the absolute rights granted us by the fact that we are (each one of, stupidly enough) He-Man Kings of the Universe.
We SCOFF at your boundaries! For verily, must we do as we please. Come hell or high water, most times.
Posted by To Single Women: Men. Don’t. Change. « Suddenly Christian on November 15, 2007 at 10:01 am
[...] related blogs o’ mine, see Six Tests To Determine If He’s Mr. Right, and Top 10 Tips For Becoming A Better Husband. But, really, Pick-Up Lines of Famous Men in [...]
Posted by Yvonne Cherie on November 15, 2007 at 10:11 am
This was absolutely amazing to read. I did go down trying, only once, and I will say every word of this article is true. And with that said, Kudos to the other…very amusing and great with writing skills. Love it
Posted by Selena on November 15, 2007 at 12:19 pm
I am a single lady of 25…26 in December
… and I hear this all the time from friends and relatives. “One toenail out of place and that guy can forget it” In all honestly, I don’t think I’m that bad..lol..I just have high standards and the fabulous thing is, I go by the guidelines in this article. 
I mean..I just think “for the rest of my life” is an awful long time to go picking from the bottom of the tree.
So my question is, how do you know when you are being too picky?
Posted by Ritz on November 15, 2007 at 12:23 pm
I am surprised that you advise unmarried people to take a trip together..camping or whatever. I would think that would lead to “fornication” but some think that is not a sin anymore….not so! Actually I think you never really know anyone until ugly happens and then you really see their true colours…
Posted by John Shore on November 15, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Yvonne: How sweet of you to say these lovely things! Thank you.
Selena: Well, I guess one way to tell if you’re being too picky is to see (and I talked about this in my posting before this one, “Single Women: Men. Don’t. Change.) how often you’re rejecting men not because you don’t like their VALUES, but because you don’t like something about their style, or WAY of doing things. Rejecting someone because they don’t share your values: Good. Rejecting someone because you think it’s stupid that they’re interested in something you’re not? Not so good. One way you’re rejecting someone because of who they are; the other you’re rejecting someone because of who you are.
Ritz: Yeah, ugly is the Great Eliminator, for sure.
Posted by Katie on November 15, 2007 at 3:20 pm
I agree to the six test to Mr. Right. I think you get an idea on how he treats his family especially his sisters, and mother. As a single lady I would LIke to know some exsamples with each test given.I would like to hear live stories of single men or women dating or in relationships on how they handle each six test. How would you get or start a fight with a guy you are seeing without looking bad or wanting to be with the single lady anymore?
Posted by Pat on November 15, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I agree but would like to add a few comments. First of all, if you are living holy, and want to be equally yoked and your “husband to be” does not have the same desire to remain pure before marriage…that is a red light. Also, do you both pray together and seek to be in God’s plan for your lives? There’s nothing like falling in love and that not be the one…in fact its a disaster.
Posted by Pat on November 15, 2007 at 5:22 pm
And remember, we are in the world but not of the world. Just because everyone else has premarital sex doesn’t mean that that is pleasing to God…it is not.
When you date, seek God and acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path. We are a chosen people and don’t do what the world does.
Posted by meinseattle on November 15, 2007 at 7:36 pm
loved the article John – practical and so funny I laughed out loud, just like real life. great tests, especially in the early stages of dating. one piece of sisterly advice though…not a good idea to go camping while dating lest you give ANY opportunity to the flesh. I don’t think it was your intention to promote the appearance of evil but just a thought – maybe it would work best if in a group. Just asking you to think about your influence when you write…other than that, keep it coming
Posted by John Shore on November 15, 2007 at 11:31 pm
me: Here was my thinking on that. I’m talking in this piece about people old enough to be seriously considering marriage–people who at the very least are out of high school. If people that age are looking for an opportunity to have sex, they’ll surely find it, whether it’s on a road trip or a trip to the library. My assumption (and of course the general word count restrictions on these sorts of pieces demands I make all kinds of such unreferenced assumptions) was that the couple–being already far enough along in their relationship to be considering marriage–would have determined whether or not they were going to have sex on that trip long before they left on it.
I can’t imagine that I have much if any “influence” on anyone who ever reads my blog postings, but you can certainly rest assured that I never write anything to which I haven’t given just about all of the consideration that I have at my disposal.
Posted by Hauwa Booth on November 16, 2007 at 1:56 am
for step one-abt the fighting, what happens where no matter what he doesnt utter a word or refuses to express his feelings abt the whole situation and becums as quiet as a graveyard?what type is this?what to do?
I also think that u tell alot about a man from his spending habits!
thanks 4 the can 6 steps
Posted by John Shore on November 16, 2007 at 5:39 am
Hauwa: How do your fights ever end, then? At some point he must start talking to you again, yes?
Posted by debz on November 16, 2007 at 8:10 am
I loved the guidelines. However, if a guy isn’t great in one but is working on it, i think it’s ok… once he really is working on it and changing all by himself. That’s how it is with my bf… he sometimes oversteps the shady line between nice and friendly and flirting or misleading, although he does make it clear to everyone who he loves… eg. he told a female friend who has low self-esteem that she was a very pretty girl and should stop being so hard on herself… she however, took it the wrong way and even though she knew about us and knew me, she still tried to get overly “friendly”… you get the idea. When he realized that, he chose to correct that miscommunication by distancing himself from her and making sure that she saw us together more often and saw him being sweet to me. Just a thought for girls with guys who have a couple flaws.
Posted by LeeAnn on November 16, 2007 at 8:57 am
You, sir, are wonderful. I LOVE reading your stuff. Thanks for being the “big bro” and cluing us into the inter brains of men.
Posted by John Shore on November 16, 2007 at 10:39 am
Debz: Yeah, it’s ALL about working on all this stuff. Forever, basically. Cool story about your bf (by which I assume you didn’t mean Big Flirt. Or Boring Freak.
LeeAnn: How kind of you! How I’ve always longed to be a big brother. But, alas, it would have meant my parents having sex–which, the moment I was born, I made it my point to make sure never, ever happened again.
Posted by Ann on November 17, 2007 at 7:19 am
John,
I like what you write.It is real. While a strong committment to Christ is necessary its the ‘other stuff’ is what your going to have to deal with ‘day in and day out’ till death do you part. A road trip can clarify alot more than sitting in church with your church face on.
Keep up the good work. Some people think conversion is like swallowing a Jesus pill and everything is going to be ok. They are hyperspiritual and aren’t dealing with reality. Sadly singles fall into this because married people won’t tell them the truth.
Posted by Melodie on November 17, 2007 at 6:08 pm
WOW I wish I would have read this before……….but your 6 tests are perfect, they make soooo much sense.
I came out of a verbally, physically abusive relationship about 3 years ago…….the ‘wrong’ signs are exactly what I had experienced. I knew it was bad but……..hey I know now I cannot change a man. (Especially #5 lack of respect for me and OTHERS in public: no kidding – Get out or go down trying!! I went down trying but I had enough)
So now I am looking for the ‘nice guy’. ahh freedom is beautiful. I have a beautiful 5 year old son, I am trying my best early on to teach him to respect people, be patient, and to help others. He is so precious. His father used to say “You women are all a bunch of *^@#%$ ’s, you are all the same!” Hmmm by the way he also treated his mother like gold and treated me like crap!! But I don’t think he had any real respect for her.
I see he miserably failed all 6 tests. He reacted the opposite of what to look for.
Now I know a wonderful male friend that would actually pass all 6 of these tests (and he is christian), so I will be patient and keep reading your advice. IT’S SO NICE TO HEAR A MALE POINT OF VIEW ON THIS. HONESTY IS BEAUTIFUL. Keep praying above all. God Bless and thankyou.
Posted by American Polly on November 18, 2007 at 7:23 am
Interesting insight into a Mr.’s prespective.
Posted by John Shore on November 18, 2007 at 9:39 am
Ann: Thank you! THAT’S what I’m talkin’ ’bout.
Melodie: I love your testimony here. It makes me want to write a thing called, like, “Five Ways to Make a Guy You Want to Fall in Love With You and Commit to You Fall In Love With You And Commit To You.” That’d rock. Except for the title.
American Polly: Nice blog you have!!
Posted by Ann on November 18, 2007 at 12:44 pm
John,
How about ‘Six Tests To Determine If She’s Mrs Right?’
I think all of us ladies will step up to the plate. Can give it a try?
Posted by Chuck on November 18, 2007 at 7:50 pm
I second the opinions on tests 1,2, & 3. They create a compromising situation for the couple if they are a Christian couple, as I read this posted on Crosswalk.com. My concern from that perspective is that Ephesians advises to “be angry but not sin”. How does one join a knock-down, drag-out fight and practice obedience at the same time? Yes, they happen sometimes, but to seek that? On test 2, the same question of appropriate behavior which opens the door to temptation and disobedience, plus creating a gossip topic for many around you. And on test 3, it implies a physical closeness which might create challenges. I completely agree on the need for discovery (I have been blessed with a fantastic wife of 27 years) but the process of discovery might problems in itself. Thanks for the wonderful article though. Everything you note is 100% true for both parties.
Posted by Jeo Oiesen on November 19, 2007 at 6:16 pm
When I was single, I checked out how he’d treated/broken up with previous girlfriends, or, if previously married, how he responded to the divorce and how seriously he took parenting.
My husband is a widower whose first wife died in his arms with cancer. While dating, I was diagnosed with melanoma. I’d offered him an “out” of the relationship the day I was diagnosed, and he’d responded he wasn’t the kind of guy that cut and run even though he’d lost his first wife to cancer. We got engaged just 3 months later.
All too many of us have had previous marriages. History talks….about you as well as him.
Posted by Surprise (Or Not)! Men Are Spoiled! « Suddenly Christian on November 21, 2007 at 7:52 am
[...] I’ve had reason to understand (via Six Tests to Determine If He’s Mr. Right and To Single Women: Men. Don’t. Change) that women find men as mysterious as I know men find [...]
Posted by Me on November 21, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Mr. Shore,
I want to say that I don’t agree with Test #2. I believe in purity before marriage. Going on a road trip with a guy is bound to lead to something Biblically incorrect. And on that, I won’t elaborate anymore.
Now, I’ve never had a boyfriend (I’m still too young for that yet), but I’ve had my fair share of fights with my friends. (which I might add, I am not proud of.) So, therefore, knowing that it is true that a fight tells alot about a person, I agree with test 1. Not nessacarily that you should start a fight, but if one happens, begin test one.
test #3: If there’s a chaperone, like someone helping him help you, (preferably a female), I find nothing wrong with this. Otherwise….see reason for not agreeing with test 2.
Test #4: Absolutely. If your boyfriend (or finacee as the case MAY be) finds nothing wrong with flirting with other girls while you’re dating, (or engaged) that’s not likely to change after marriage.
Test #5: Once again, I agree with this test. If he treats others wrong, eventually he’ll treat you wrong, too.
Test #6: I agree with this test too. If he loses bad, eventually, he’ll win bad, too. And that’s…not good.
I’ll have to remember these when (and if) I ever get a boyfriend.
Posted by Transformed Through Christ on November 25, 2007 at 5:57 am
Mr Shore,
Having been a man all my life
and seeing so many women hate men because of the very things you have stated here, I applaud you for this. I could have written this myself. I do not agree with (14. Determined Disciple – November 12, 2007) the above statement from this good lady in referring to “I do not know WHY the Lord allowed you to marry him”.
Having been a Christian for only 12 years out of the 47 I have been alive, I know I have made some pretty poor choices. God gives us free will. We cannot blame everything that is negative on our Lord. We as people make unwise choices at times, especially when we are blinded by what we think is love. We make these choices when we are searching for someone to fill a void only God can fill. I don’t blame God for my wrong choices. I had to be alone to learn to live alone so that I could be filled with the Spirit and allow God to transform me.
I am far from perfect but I will tell you that I have been married and divorced. It takes 2 to make it or break it. I knew my failings and admitted them openly. She wouldn’t and that doesn’t break me. All that matters is where I was at fault- In other words, I didn’t point the finger at her. A person cannot heal and change until they stop blaming. Otherwise they drag what is not right in them into the next relationship. We don’t have the power to change anyone but ourselves and even that requires God. We were both guilty of a few of these things.The biggest problem: We both dived right into marriage without getting to know each other. We were NOT a proper fit. We thought (blindly) that it was “love at first sight.”
So to me there is a Test #0: Am I right with the Lord? How do I conduct myself when I am alone? Am I one person to others and someone different when I am alone? Do I seek my security in others, or material goods? Or do I seek my security from the Lord? Do I trust Him to open that door for me when He determines it is the right time? Or do I force that door open and go where I shouldn’t?
When a person can answer these questions in the positive column then they are ready to date and discover the other 6. This goes for both men and women. Being right with the Lord first (Who should be first in everything) we will know HOW to love. He will put someone in our lives but He must come first and be in control.
My fiance sent me this article. God has placed this person in my life. We were NOT looking for each other. We became friends through our church and small group and just had that for over 3 years before we even started dating. God built our friendship over time and there is no substitute. We have gotten to see each other at our best and worst. Frankly none of these 6 things will I ever think about. I know I do not fall into these negative categories. I won’t HAVE to think about them because they were resolved through Christ who transforms us!
I didn’t plan this. If I had I would have messed it up! Ladies, there are some very descent men out there. The wrong man is at every corner. Please give yourself time to allow God to put a person in your life. Instead of starting by looking at them, look within yourself. Get Test #0 handled within yourself and you will be attracted to a healthy man. I was attracted to unhealthy women who were attracted to unhealthy men. Until about 3 years ago I wasn’t healthy. I was immature. I was Mr. Wrong………
Posted by What? Me, Mediocre? « Suddenly Christian on November 26, 2007 at 1:08 pm
[...] I’ve received a few letters from people who took my last few posts (Six Tests to Determine If He’s Mr. Right ,To Single Women: Men. Don’t. Change, and Men Are Spoiled) as evidence that I don’t like [...]
Posted by JTriplett on November 27, 2007 at 5:01 am
im currently in a seperation with my girlfreind…… i see something in her that i cant see in anyone else. i meet most of these tests…. but i can be a sore loser accasionaly, she is currently talking to some new guy she met in a pshyc ward….. but at the same time she is still talking to me…… i really dont know what to do. she has been playing games or something, one day we had a talk which i thought went really good, then later that night through an IM she said i think we should be frinds i think our relationship would last longer like that, then she told me she was really into this new guy “he really gets me” or something like that, then a day or 2 later she said she was joking and got mad at me for getting this guys name wrong…..
im so confused…. my heart aches cause i want her to be part of my life
Posted by Skerrib on November 28, 2007 at 8:00 am
JTriplett, that sounds like a really hard situation…I’m no doctor or counselor, but I think your current separation is a good thing.
Posted by Brian on November 28, 2007 at 8:17 am
Hi,
I felt that it was quite a good piece of article. Though some part of it may not be as practical, but the point that the writer was trying to bring across was apparent. What is of utmost importance is the condition of the man’s heart and the degree of his love for the other party. A man’s love and lust is as different as black is to white. Well, to me, for the lady, the most important question you should ask is your Mr right like a Jesus to you.
Posted by John Shore on November 28, 2007 at 8:24 am
Triplett: Why would you want someone in your life who treats you (or anyone else) like that?
Posted by Lisa Clark on December 7, 2007 at 11:37 pm
I think this is a very good article — straight and to the point, and so true. As a midlife woman who went through divorce to a midlife crisis narcissist after a mostly-healthy 11-year marriage, I’ve used each of these tests to determine make-or-break in relationships through the years and can advocate that they work really well. Here are examples, per each test:
Test #1. Just ended a one-month relationship with a man whose behavior showed he was still emotionally attached to his ex-wife, divorced two years. It seemed like we were a wonderful intellectual/physical match on many levels, but he pulled away suddenly and, when I called him on his downright bad behavior turn that he was expressing in a variety of ways, he got extremely angry, threw back personal things at me that I’d confided in him, turned cold as a stone — not quite the Mr. Compassionate he’d billed himself as (especially since he’d told me that his *perpetual anger* was one of his XW’s reasons for the divorce. RED FLAG. I think this is a great measure of whether a person remains human or becomes a cornered animal behaving like they’ve never met their significant other before.
Test #2. Traveling with a partner can make or break a relationship; I highly recommend it. Two weeks of “wild west” wandering around the U.S., or on holiday anywhere, experiencing just those scenarios the author mentions, does the trick. Even whether the relationship is intimate or friendship. Shows the guts of the character we’re each made of.
Test #3. I told Mr. One Month Guy (mentioned above), the night we broke it off, that my definition of a “friend” is someone who comes to my house when I’ve got the flu and goes my grocery shopping for me. That’s a measure my grandparents would have used, and they were married for 70+ years. I’m Old School and Southern California attitudes (where this type of imperfection isn’t acknowledged) don’t seem to care about this.
Test #4. One of the FLAGS I noticed about Mr. One Month Guy was during a dinner he took me to at an upscale local restaurant. There we were on the patio, me looking great, and at a large round fireside table next to us were seated six similar blonde (???) beauties all in black dresses. My date, 53, kept looking at them, 30-somethings. Mr. Midlife took me home and used some excuse about needing to get home so he could get up early. The night we broke it off I told him about that night and how demeaned I’d felt. He said, “If I’d been a gentleman I would have switched my seat to not look at them. I guess I was a cad for watching their breasts for 30 minutes.” ‘nuf said. By contrast, XH NEVER behaved this way in my presence during our marriage, until the last year when we were out with a dinner group at New Years and I noticed he was actually *flirting* with the woman who was his dining partner and what a change that represented; I didn’t know at the time why that was happening or that he was already planning the divorce (a year in advance).
Test #5. I’ve read this one before, about how someone treats people in service and I completely agree. Relatedly, Mr. One Month Guy drove me to a desert astronomy party, and was in a hurry — so he yelled at all the drivers around him and passed one guy on a double yellow line road. By the time we were off-road he was driving so fast it scared me, and I’m usually the off-road driver. So I watched his driving behavior elsewhere; he talked at/yelled at other drivers incessantly, every time we were in a car together. I’ve never known anyone else who did this, and saw it as his anger at humanity oozing out — anticipating when it would ooze out on me (as it did weeks later), or on my daughter. I was right.
6. How someone loses is a big indicator for me. Reach back to 1991, when my ex-husband (divorced 2003) and I were engaged and playing Monopoly with the couple next door. XH became aggressive, negotiating side real estate deals, trying to put multiple hotels on each property to bankrupt the other players as fast as possible. I was alarmed by his behavior. The other couple asked, “Are you sure you two ought to get married?” right then and there. They knew then what I couldn’t/didn’t want to see. Later, I sat playing a board game with XH and I made a move which won. He took his arm and swiped all the pieces off the board and onto the floor. He’s the only person I’ve ever known who has done this. RED FLAG, but I didn’t/couldn’t see it at the time. I’ve never been a bad loser and was raised with highest regard for good sportsmanship and the importance of being in the game v. winning. XH was never a member of any team, and boy did/does the difference show. I’m raising our daughter to experience competition both as an individual and as part of a supportive team, so she doesn’t go in the direction of the Dark Side.
Thank you to the author for pinpointing what, for me, have been simple truths borne of life experience, that are measures of human behavior and character.
Posted by toni on January 7, 2008 at 7:13 pm
I have been following your “blogs” for a few months, and have found your advice and comments entertaining , thought -provoking , and wise for the most part. Thank you for the Six Tests suggestions….and the advice to Single Women about men not changing. I have questioned my own heart, mind and intuition about these very things for the last year I have been dating a certain man.
The first test on fighting showed him very much beyond the limits of civil behaviour during arguments, but I had not been able to judge the situation for myself without some kind of “back-up” advice to help me stand up to his “I haven’t done anything wrong” line.
And the flirting with other woman constantly was one of the triggers for some of our “discussions” , because I felt very rejected , humiliated, and abandoned when he put the charm on for a young beauty, as though I was not there. Now this all makes you want to repeat the article on Why you don’t like to give advice to women with jerk husbands, because you think we “KNOW” what we are getting into and staying around for.
But some of us just keep on wanting to believe we are loved and they are going to change , and God can still do miracles…..and we won’t accept what we are experiencing and seeing as really true until someone(like you) just comes out and rubs our nose in it.
I don’t want to marry a man who is like this and cry and whine for the rest of my life, but they are SO convincing.
What I am saying is thanks, don’t hold back, and keep up the encouragement…….
Posted by John Shore on January 7, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Toni: You say your man is “SO convincing”? But what is he convincing of?
I know: He sweet-talks you. He apologizes. He shrugs his shoulders, and smiles a cute little boy smile, and with many words rapidly spoken somehow takes the edge away from what he’s done. He makes you doubt your own heart. This is what men do.
This is what women let us do.
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 5:57 am
Personal pet peeve: adults who make selfish, unkind choices and then say that other adults “let them do it.”
I see it as my own personal responsibility to do the right thing, even if other people “let me” or even *encourage* me to do the wrong thing.
I do not see it as my personal responsibility to chastise or “parent” my adult loved ones.
People make their own choices for themselves — and live with the consequences.
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 7:36 am
As long as I’m on the subject, I can’t help but notice that you recently advised your male readers to seek out a wife who is “absolutely without agenda or ambition for you beyond that you’re happy.”
Now you appear to be telling your female readers that if they are actually foolish enough to *be* that sort of woman, they have no one to blame for their unhappiness but themselves.
Seriously, double standard much?
Posted by John Shore on January 8, 2008 at 8:10 am
Over simplify much?
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 8:40 am
I’m just saying that if you’re going to dispense relationship advice you should probably choose a position and stick with it. You post all this stuff about how men don’t change and how men are selfish beasts and that’s just the way it is and that women should stop banging their head against the brick wall of trying to help them grow…
…and then you say that men behave like selfish beasts *because women let them?*
Perhaps I’m missing some key point in your philosophy. Care to shed some light?
Posted by Skerrib on January 8, 2008 at 9:15 am
Boundaries and personal responsibility.
A simplified example–my husband (being an adult and all) is free to make his own choices. I can’t ‘make’ him do the dishes, or want to save money, or clean up after himself (hence the not banging my head against the wall trying to get him to do those things). Yet in the same way, I make my own choices as well. If he leaves his socks out, I don’t pick them up for him, even if company is coming. I can’t make him clean them up, but by choosing not to swoop in and rescue him (ie enable the behavior), he has to live with the consequences. He might get mad at me at first, but in the long run he learns to pick up his own stuff, and I don’t get resentful over ‘having’ to do it for him.
Socks, no big deal. But in the bigger picture of taking personal responsibility, a huge difference (for the better) in our relationship.
(John, not sure if this is on par with your intent of the post, so feel free to clarify as needed.)
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 10:50 am
Skerrib — I totally agree with your approach. I’ve found it to get great results in my own marriage. But…I would be very much surprised if it were on par with John’s intent. From everything he’s posted, I gather that his stand is that a slob is a slob is a slob, forever and ever amen, and a woman can either accept that her man is a slob or hit the road and try to find one who isn’t.
Do I have that right, John?
Posted by John Shore on January 8, 2008 at 11:00 am
No, I’ve not said that men CAN’T change, or that they won’t. All I’ve said is that women imagining that they PERSONALLY, through the strength of their love or via whatever other means are at their disposal, can change their man, are in for a world of hurt.
I’m just saying that trying to get someone to change into someone YOU’D like them to be is generally futile. That’s all. I’m saying what anyone would, I think, agree with: If your man IS a slob, you need to either be okay with that, or (assuming you have THAT big a problem with messiness) get out. What’s NOT wise is to stay there, thinking that if you say the right things, or do the right things, he will, BECAUSE of your words and actions, change. He won’t. He might change for OTHER reasons, but it’s very unlikely he’ll change because that’s what YOU’D like him to do. Men are stubborn like that.
Anyway, you guys have what I’ve said, or meant to: Love him as he is, and go from there. But don’t love him for who you think or hope he’ll one day become. Kiss of death.
Posted by Skerrib on January 8, 2008 at 11:32 am
This is one reason I stay away from (most) chick-flicks. Too many times the husband and wife are all, “Blah-blah-BLAH” and the wife tries & tries & cries, and the husband just ignores her until some moment where he comes to his senses and then they’re fine. In my less-sane days I was that woman, and I couldn’t figure out how long I’d have to endure all the ‘injustices’ in our relationship (ie my playing a doormat). I mean come on, it’s in the script, he HAS to change eventually, right??
Then I came to my senses (no he doesn’t HAVE to change. Ever. But I can) and was completely fixed, and we’re perfect now.
But I’m just sayin’…
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 12:02 pm
“I’ve not said that men CAN’T change, or that they won’t. All I’ve said is that women imagining that they PERSONALLY, through the strength of their love or via whatever other means are at their disposal, can change their man, are in for a world of hurt.”
May I share with you the long, excruciatingly personal story of my marriage? Because we’re so close and all? ;^)
I almost hate to post this here, just because someone in a bad marriage that they really need to get free of might read it and decide unwisely to stick it out. But what the heck.
My husband and I both came from very dysfunctional families. Actually, I guess that’s a matter of debate. We both agree that I came from a ridiculously dysfunctional family. He insists that he had a wonderful childhood. I think his upbringing was just as warped as mine, just in a completely different direction. Anyway. When we first met, he was a self-absorbed alcoholic whose moral compass was firmly calibrated to Due Self. I was a budding control freak who had made up my mind that, now that I’d finally escaped my mother’s suffocating grip, I was going to have EVERYTHING MY OWN WAY, dammit. Pretty much the only thing we had going for us, as a couple, was this indefinable feeling in both of our hearts that made us want to be together. I like to think of it as the Hand of God.
Still sounds like a marriage made in hell, though, doesn’t it? For the first few years it was indeed pretty rough. I nagged and whined and cried about his drinking, and he responded by drinking even more heavily. He pushed and pushed for us to start having kids, and I eventually gave in even though I knew we weren’t ready, because I hoped it would make him want to be home more. Instead, he decided that babies were in fact noisy, messy, and inconvenient, and he was home less than ever. Which engendered more nagging and whining on my part. The whole time, he was swearing to me that he’d LOVE to be home more but [insert some insultingly transparent and drunkenly-delivered lie here about how there were no less than five accidents on the freeway, causing his afternoon commute to be six hours long, or whatever]. We never had enough money because he drank and partied it away.
About now you’re wondering why the hell we stayed together, right? Well, amazingly enough, and I know it sounds like the worst kind of denial, but it boils down to this: in spite of our ginormous problems, we loved each other. We still felt that mysterious, intangible bond. And in a way that is difficult to explain, both of us were gradually changing. At first, we only changed as much as we absolutely had to to keep the marriage from falling apart. But as those little changes brought obviously positive results to our relationship, they began to snowball into bigger changes. I stopped trying to control him, and accepted that he needed to make his own choices. At first that was very difficult for me…but then it was amazingly liberating. He, in turn, became happier in the relationship and felt less need for self-medicating his discontent with alcohol.
It certainly wasn’t easy. Twice I decided that enough was enough, and I was ready to leave for good. Both times he realized that whatever issue he’d been stubbornly trying to “win” was not worth losing the marriage over, and we started fresh.
This fall we’ll have been married for twelve years. From the craziness of those early days we have managed to forge a strong and true partnership, based on mutual respect and genuinely wanting each other to be happy and satisfied. If one of us is upset about something we both address that problem until everyone is happy again. He no longer drinks more than a beer or two at a time, if that, and shows no signs of missing it. From a decidedly rocky start, he and his children now adore one another. My legendary tantrums are a thing of the distant past. We enjoy a life of wonderful peace, joy and prosperity.
That’s what love is. It changes people. It heals and mends and beautifies. It moves mountains.
So…sorry, John. I respectfully disagree. I absolutely believe that men and women, “through the strength of their love,” *can* change one another for the better. Absolutely.
Posted by John Shore on January 8, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Of course people can change–and of course love changes people. I’m at a loss as to why you continue to think I’ve made an assertion I have not. Your husband changed out of love for you. HE CHANGED BECAUSE HE WANTED TO CHANGE, NOT BECAUSE YOU TALKED OR FORCED HIM INTO IT.
He genuinely wanted you to be happy. He changed himself whatever inside of him was getting in the way of that happiness.
You’re talking about change coming from inside a person. I’m talking about change coming from OUTSIDE a person. Apples and oranges.
Posted by dsilkotch on January 8, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Ah. Well…okay, then. ;^)
Posted by Kerri B. on January 8, 2008 at 5:56 pm
dsilkotch–that’s a beautiful story, about your marriage. Very cool.
Posted by dsilkotch on January 9, 2008 at 5:45 am
Thanks Kerri. As a general rule I totally don’t recommend anyone trying to make a marriage work with a heavy drinker (or with a control freak, for that matter), but in this particular case it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to either of us. God truly does work in mysterious ways. :^)
Posted by Casper on January 23, 2008 at 9:40 am
John.
Great test, but I gotta take issue with number 4. Your cultural prejudices are showing through my friend. I’m a guy, very happily married 20 years to a great gal that I don’t deserve. We have 2 great kids, one grown one nearly grown.
In the years we’ve been together I’ve taken every one of those tests, and passed 5/6 of them with flying covers. I’m a gracious loser, I respect the people who take care of me (and I tip well), I’ve spent several months out of the last 20 years as my wife’s patient and loving day nurse, we do a couple of multi-day road trips every year and look forward to the time together, and I fight fair (when we fight, which is extremely rare).
However – I’m a southern boy. I grew up as the center of attention among several loving aunts, lots of older female cousins, several female “friends of the family”, 2 grandmothers, one great grandmother, and of course a doting mother. I am extremely comfortable with close, playful, flirtatious, loving non-sexual relationships with women of all stripes. I admire and respect and adore women, and I am an incurable flirt.
Perhaps in California, when a man greets a woman with “Hello Beautiful” and a warm smile, it’s shorthand for “Let’s do it!”, but in the southland it just means “Hi there! You’re a sweetheart and a cutie and I just love ya’ to pieces. Want to meet my wife? She’d love ya’ too! Let’s get together and play guitars and sing old country tunes and have pulled pork sandwiches. Is your hubby here? Where is he? Can he sing? Bring him too!”.
We have a certain enthusiasm, and as Bill & Ted said, we try to “Be Excellent to each other”. Most women love to hear “Hello Beautiful!”, and the ones who don’t probably should. We say it warmly and with great regard, and we mean it – but in most cases it’s not a serious attempt at unsavory activity. It’s also not an insult or belittlement of our spouses. I like Tonja and Rebecca and Debbie (to mention a few of our lady friends), but I LOVE Diana, and that’s a whole ‘nuther thing, and there’ll be no messing about.
My wife is a Yankee girl from Indiana, and she didn’t understand at first. It was a strange adjustment for her. She thought I was seriously trying to hit on other women right in front of her, and she was angry. She confronted me, and my response was “Huh? What? You’re kidding! You really thought,,,?!?!”. Now she just finds it funny. One of her coworkers asked her if my flirting bothered her, and she responded “Nah – he’s all talk. If some woman tried to get him in the sack he’d run away scared and hide behind me” (which is probably true).
So,,, perhaps you need a qualifier in there. If your feller isn’t flirty, but gets really chummy with one certain gal, then beware. Perhaps the old “Tramp at the bar” test, where a cute friend tries to pick up your guy. I don’t know what the right answer is, but I know from my own life that your #4 is not necessarily an accurate indicator.
My $.02. Love the blog. Thanks for the writing tips – I’m scanning my local freebie paper now, and I’ll make a submission soon.
Casper
Posted by John Shore on January 23, 2008 at 10:31 am
Hey, Casper: Thanks for the long, great comment. I am familiar with Southern mores; I was born in Nashville, my sister in FL, my mom’s from Virginia.
Anyway, it’s a whole conversation. But yes, you’re right: What constitutes “flirting” is largely a cultural calculation. But let me ask you this: How comfortable do you think you’d be if your wife felt as comfortable flirting with men as you are fliring with women? What if you had to watch her quite often saying to men–with, as you say, “warmly and with great regard”–”Hello, handsome! You’re a sweetheart and a cutie!” Tell me you woudn’t have issues with that.
Anyway, I don’t mean this in a confrontational way at all. I understand what you’re saying, and appreciate it. It’s just great … conversation foddder, basically. Cuz it IS interesting, the question of the validity or fairness of this double-standard with which you claim women in the South are so comfortable. It’s been my (limited, for sure) experience that–as with most things–some are, and some aren’t. But, you know. Duh.
Posted by Casper on January 23, 2008 at 10:55 am
Interesting question – I wonder how I would react?!?! She’s got a bit of a shy streak and I’m the outgoing one, so it hasn’t been much of an issue. With friends we’re comfortable with she flirts and charms and gives hugs – but it takes her longer to get there than it takes me.
Interesting food for thought, thank you. I didn’t mean to get into a confrontation either, I guess I just wanted to point out that sometimes flirting’s just flirting, and a flirt can be a good husband if he can remember who’s who and what’s what.
Posted by John Shore on January 23, 2008 at 12:28 pm
“But it takes her longer to get there than it takes me.” And THERE we have the entire …
Well. Let’s just stop right there.
You really would have to be thoughtful and then honest about how you’d react if your wife acted toward other men the way you apparently do towards at least some women. If it wouldn’t bother you, then … then you’re lying. No, but … well, yeah, really. I mean, it most likely would bother you, if for no other reason (and this is a HUGE reason) than that it would be embarassing to you. It belittles you; it basically emasculates you. Standing there while your wife flirts with another man just … can’t be good for you.
Anyway, if you wouldn’t feel comfortable with that sort of behavior in your wife, then you have a real challenge on your hands justifying the thinking that she’s supposed to be okay with something you’re not.
Posted by Casper on January 23, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Actually, I never said I had a problem with her being flirtatious – you said that. I just pondered the question. Do I feel emasculated or embarassed when she flirts with another guy? No. I’m pretty self assured, I’m the father of our children, I’ve been with her since Reagan was in the White House. I don’t suspect that I’m going to lose my spot as her mate over a little banter around a punchbowl.
I didn’t say she doesn’t flirt, I said it takes her a little longer to “get there”, meaning to get comfortable enough with a new male friend to flirt a little. There’s a bit of shyness there, there’s also a bit of safety concern involved. The double standard that I’m talking about is that men rape women, women don’t rape men (or at least it’s EXTREMELY rare). When I meet a nice lady at a party, I don’t have to worry about her grabbing me on the way to the restroom and assaulting me – my wife does have to consider that, and that’s why it “Takes her a little longer”.
Please don’t assume that I suffer from this jealousy or insecurity.
Posted by John Shore on January 23, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I was just responding to you saying, ” I wonder how I would react?!?!”. I figured that meant … well, just that: That you weren’t sure how you’d feel if your wife flirted like you do. Especially since you also said you thought the question of how you’d feel made “interesting food for thought.” But … sounds like you’ve already thought about it! Fair enough! As I say, I was just responding to what you said. No offense intended, of course.
Posted by dsrtrosy on January 23, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I think your list is priceless–and I do indeed agree with each. In my last relationship, we were able to experience all of those issues in the natural course of dating. He passed, I passed, and then we were able to move in to the deeper issues–money and family.
Loving each other more than life itself was not enough to overcome our differences in those two extremely important areas, but we had developed the ability to speak very honestly and lovingly with each other through all of the items on your list and so were able to split amicably before we ended up married to someone who was ultimately wrong.
Alright, I will go back to lurking now.
Posted by John Shore on January 23, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Wow. A funny, articulate lurker.
Are there OTHERS like you out there?
Posted by Casper on January 24, 2008 at 5:23 am
Hey – I was reasonably articulate! I’ll try to work harder on the funny.
Posted by John Shore on January 24, 2008 at 5:40 am
So you’re a LURKER, Casper! I KNEW it!
Perv.
Posted by How to Make Money Writing For Single Atheists With iPhones Who Hate Dieting Christian Homosexuals Who Love Britney Spears « Suddenly Christian on February 18, 2008 at 5:54 am
[...] but surprisingly popular was/is How To Make a Living Writing. My most popular post to date is Six Tests to Determine If He’s Mr. Right. One of my personal favorites is The Story of My Life. And I’ll shut-up [...]
Posted by Christian Severin on February 19, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Who was the guy who said something along the lines of …
Going into marriage, a women hopes her man will change, and a man hopes his women won’t change, and they’ll both be disappointed.
… or something like this?
Posted by Els on February 19, 2008 at 11:55 pm
That would have been Albert Einstein.
“Men marry women with the hope they will never change.
Women marry men with the hope they will change.
Invaribly they are both disappointed.”
Posted by Harrison on March 8, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Your post, whilst being quite true, is a little lopsided. Did you ever do one for women? While it is true that a man should always be present and attentive with his woman, he is also very vulnerable in this place to being manipulated by her. Its a fine line – an art – the balance of power in relationship. Sometimes it is a show of his wisdom – and to her best advantage also – for him to not support her in her negative emotions (illness, jealousy, guilt). Just as much as he must be loving and attentive in his presence with her, she must be open to it, or it cannot be given, and she cannot get it, and there can’t be much true love for long …..
Posted by tabitha powell on March 20, 2008 at 9:01 am
yea i have hard that to but you know what my boyfriend goes though so meny changes that it’s not even funny and he’s one day all over me and the nexts he’s mad and don’t want to be by me but yea thats just men
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 7:18 am
5 out of six is okay right?
we argue alot. some days it seems we cant be near each other. He is a good guy. Bad temper, never with me. I love him, but its communication really. I have ambitions, but only because he isnt happy now.
and the flirting thing… he makes me feel loved.. and I knew he was mine- but he was so obvious about it. we’d be in the car, and I’d see him looking at someone else- or he’d mutter sometihng like ’sexy’.
and i’d look at him and suddenly he’s innocent and all, ” her is you honey. Im talking about you…”
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 7:54 am
* clarifier here, Im not bothered so much by his obvious flirting, more by the girls who either take him seriously, or seem to ignore the fact that he has a gf.
maybe I’m just too jealous… or maybe we just pick the wrong girls to try and be friends with. Cause it doesnt seem to be a problem with guys…
Posted by Regina on May 4, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Great 6 tests ,,, and I agree with the very early comment (possibly the first back in 2007!) that says something about looking at the way a man treats his mother … and what their relationship is really like … well, I would add, does he have enough compassion and kindness of heart to be patient with your parents as they age and may, someday, need their daughter to help them at some level…there are lots of mother in law jokes, but the reality is that aging parents need the love and support of their children usually one of their daughters, as they age and grow frailer and more afraid of the bustle of everyday life! See how a man reacts to in-law discussions, etc. TMy mother lived with us for 8 years, and my kind and patient husband brought her an early morning coffee and toast every day for nearly all those years hanks again for the six tests artice….and he passed all six of the tests … thanks!
Posted by John Shore on May 5, 2008 at 4:16 am
That’s great how your husband did that for your mom, Regina. Wonderful. Thanks for writing and sharing.
Posted by Tests to determine if he's Mr. Right on June 25, 2008 at 1:59 pm
That is one excellent post. The ‘first fight’ point is a pearl and will teach you how driven he is by his ego. Does he take things ‘personally’ or can he separate his emotional attachment from facts and events?
Watching him around other women is another test of his egotistical nature. Does he require the validation of other women in order to feel good about himself? Also if another woman flirted with him – would he rise to it?
The service staff point is great too. All truly great men are humble and the way he treats service staff is a measure of his self perception.
Very, very good. I shall explore the blog further.
Adam.
Posted by kimberly braaten on July 26, 2008 at 8:33 am
i was reading your blog on the is he right for you and i am sitting here crying like i havent in a long time,about what he does with a woman and when he is not around and how it hurts so bad, how i have been treated by a guy and now how i cant trust men for nothing no matter what i cant let them in my life to many lies and hurts it all came out right now by reading this article on is he right for me. i havent been in a relationship for 3 years now.it was always when i have been with a man that when another woman is around how i was treated like i was a nobody they would flirt wit hthe waitress, and the cashier, wherever we went, not intrduce me to his friends as his girlfriend. not one man i have known has shown me i can trust him, or long trips with a man then hitting on me , i left that man in the desert after that. d oyou have a book on all this hurt from all these relationships that has destroyed my trust completly on anyone, please let me know, cause i need some relieve.
Posted by kimberly braaten on July 26, 2008 at 8:37 am
i do hope some day the hurt will go away and that i can trust just one man. but i just been shown for most of my life i cant then i will get hurt if i do.. thanks
Posted by Chandi on February 26, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I highly recommend looking at his relationship with his mother. I married someone whose mother was pretty much the most unhealthy person I had ever met. (I am talking emotionally unhealthy.) And she raised my ex… and he had no siblings and she had no one else in her life. She unconsciously wanted him to be a surrogate spouse for her when he was 7 yrs old, at the time of her divorce from his dad.
This played out in various negative ways in our marriage, which I won’t go in to. But suffice to say I am NEVER going to consider marrying a man again who has an unhealthy relationship with his mother and whose mother raised him in a very unhealthy way.
Perhaps it is needless to say that my blog is about divorce!
http://italiandreams.wordpress.com
Posted by Des on October 8, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Great list.
I’d like to add to #1
During an argument, if he ratchets down, that’s fine. If he does it to the extent of not talking to you for a month because he got his feelings hurt, then that’s a red flag too.