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57 – John, I would guess that most people read your responses. I always do. You have some wonderful posters, too… intelligent, interesting, funny people. I really look forward to these pages! They are my favorite relaxing thought+giggles-with-a-cup-of-coffee read.
The scriptural interpretation issue is a critical one because the Word is our life, and it is an indispensable part of the church's process of continuous reformation into the image of Christ. We've got to be able to use the Word, teach it, read, hear, believe and obey it. And people who like to read and who like to write stuff about religion, as we do, cannot be the only people doing this.
As Kath pointed out, the bible can be, and has, been misused to support many bogus religious, political and other ideas. In my opinion, ignorance of the bible by the mass of ordinary people in the church has, through history, made this much easier for these "wolfs in sheep's clothing". They cherry-pick scriptures to support their positions.
If we use a clear, accurate translation (and most of the major ones made in the last 100 years would qualify), look at everything the bible has to say on an issue, genuinely and sincerely want to understand what God is saying, ask God to help us understand what we are hearing/reading, talk about the things we're having difficulty understanding with like-minded Christian brothers and sisters, and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through the Word, I'm convinced we will be compelled to go in the direction God wants. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16)
No christian is perfect, only God is. We all have faults. Money? God does not condemn anyone who has money, its the love of it. We need money to eat, pay bills, medical expensives, etc, And God is the one who provides that, money. He is the one who owns the earth and everything on the earth, we are just stewards to what he has given us. Reading the bible well the king james version can confuse anyone. But with the other translations out today its has become much easier to understand the bible. But one must read the entire verses too. Not just a part of it. Which is what some people do.
We are to make disciples of the world too, as God told us to. But one cannot force Gods word on anyone. For some they just do not want to
hear it at all. And getting in a person face, only makes them reject God more. And Gay's and Lesbians, the bible tells us that they shall not see the kingdom of heaven. God did not create man for man, and woman for woman, realationships, nor to have sex with the same sex.
Just as God did not make a mistake when he created anyone, to make them think they should become the opposite sex. He does not make mistakes. God created man for woman and woman for man.
And we do have those Christians who think they are better than others. And think they are know it all's. The chapter and verse person. I just laugh at them. For they are no better than me. They are sinners, just like I am, and they have to ask God to forgive them of there sin's just as I do. God knows everyone's heart. And that is what he looks at.
Gd Article. I must disagree with one thing you wrote though … God yes does do the work .. but that doesnt mean we do nothing and let Him do all the work. No, because we must be lights to the world, and through us, God can do miracles. As Jesus said "you do not put Lamps in places where they can't be seen, no , you put them where they shine and can be seen" .Yes, i agree we should stop going to convert people in an overboard way preaching like nobodies business … but we still have the duty to do it, and i think we should continue this, but only with the help of the Holy Spirit, the direction of the Holy Spirit, and in a way that relates to God.
Thats what i think anyway.
God Bless You =D
Because we weren't all born in 1906?
Sorry. That was extremely snarky. It seemed like such a FUNNY answer that I had to see it in print. Forgive me.
To be honest, "gay" has meant "male homosexual" for so long that's the only way I think of that word. I'm 50, and I don't EVER remember people saying, "I'm so gay it's Christmas," or, "Just being with you makes me feel so gay." So … to me, guy homosexual IS what "gay" means.
Jeannie: Thanks so much for your comment. What a day-maker. (Was I being grumpy? With the Catholic/Protestant guy, you mean? Nah. I mean … I guess I DO get a little grumpy sometimes when someone criticizes something they THINK I said, rather than what I actually said. You simply would not BELIEVE how often that happens to me: People just sort of attack (not that that guy did) without actually READING what it is they just assume you said. It does get a little … grueling. But. NO EXCUSE! So I apologize for my Revealed Snarkiness.
Kath: BRILLIANT!!
Shoot. Must go make breakfast. I have no idea if anyone even reads my responses to these comments, but let me real quick say how much each and every one of them means to me. That ANYONE would take time from their lives to share their response to something I wrote and sent out to Cyber World just … kills me. It's so great. THANKS TO YOU ALL!!!
Hi,
About your Top 10 Ways….
You talk about Homosexuality and then you refer to Gays.
Why do we as Christians who are all suppose to be Gay (in the happy sense) so readily accept the usage of a word that for years has meant happy to something that depicts those that are not really Gay ( Happy) ?
I doubt if this is anywhere near where you were heading with that comment, John, but it reminded me of what Gandhi said about being a Christian and a Jew and Muslim and a Hindu. We all have far more things in common than what we differ on, yet it is those differences which we continue to obsess us. Good post. You get a 100% plus 10 points for extra credit since you didn’t get anything wrong.
Um. Yeah, that’s why I made a distinction between Protestants and Catholics, not between Christians and Catholics.
sigh…
John-I recently stumbled across this site and find you very funny. Hope it's okay to point at that here you just sounded a little grouchy (maybe tired or hungry or fed up with nasty neighbors). Not that I thought you were trying to be funny (you weren't, were you?).
Anyway, the irony here is that many (dare I say most) of these posts proved your points about how hypercritical, judgmental, irritating, etc christians are by…re-iterating how hypercritical, judgmental, irritating, etc. other christians are. I'm going to end there and not tell you how your points apply to either everyone but me or no one I know.
Keep up the humor! I loved your article on words that should be banned from TV broadcasting. I laughed until I cried
John, I am not trying to be argumentative. I’m trying to point out that in order to understand how to apply scripture in our current culture, we must first understand it in the culture of first century Judaism. We are dealing with issues that are far different from those dealt with by the early church. You will agree there aren’t many people infiltrating churches attempting to convince believers of the necessity of circumcision.
But how can we apply the lessons Paul taught the Galatian church in light of our current culture? Are there similar situations that exist within the church where we might apply what he taught. I think there are. Anyhow, that is my point.
Amen, John. Thanks.
John –
Hey man, you've taken on a year's worth here in summing up the failings of Christianity in one fell swoop. Lots of decent comments but one glaring failure you missed (in my opinion) — and you even stepped into it.
Imho, popular Christianity is a little like armchair psychology sometimes. I have worked in Christian media, worked for a church, and have a masters in lit (focused on religious dialog in Renaissance England) as well as seminary — and here's what I've noticed….
It's the nature of church to talk, talk, talk about what the Bible means. And yet scholars are every day discovering things that change our understanding of various passages. These are ancient books originally written in languages that are no longer spoken (or have changed a great deal) in cultural contexts that no longer exist to original audiences whose worldviews differ from ours in such HUGE ways I can't even think of a good comparison.
A little humility before the text will help us a great deal. We are learning new things about this book all the time. Case in point: the scripture popularly rendered "Train up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it," we now know to be more accurately translated "Train up a child according to his own giftedness, and he will not depart from it." You might have been a Christian long enough for that one to hit home, but it would for many people who have used this one as guide for for raising their children! To my ear, the new translation makes so much more sense — it is more proverb-like.
To claim that we know what Jesus meant without doing even a little digging (popular Christianity / armchair psychology) often does more damage than good. I'm quite convinced that the Bible can be twisted to mean just about anything. If we claim it as our sacred book, we can do better than tossing around scriptures as if they were mathematical theorems that can be ripped from context and be pasted into a new one.
And there's so much good to gain from some serious digging into the text. And much to be gained by immersing ourselves in it until we (like Andy above, and others) bring out of it not just the meanings of passages but the spirit of various passages and books into our thinking. It really is alive — I believe that — but I believe that happens when we sit under it to learn from it and not when we stand over it to use as a proof text for our own ends.
Issues like homosexuality are hot-button issues of our day — especially in election years, probably. But I don't see this leaping from the text as a theme or major issue. We tend to use the Bible as a proof text here. Issues like loving your neighbor — huge, huge theme — don't hear people talking as much about it as the hot-button issues though. Wish I did. I mean, maybe instead of talking about how much money is ok to have, we could talk about the best ways to love with the money we've got.
-Kath
An A-PLUS! Finally, I can die happy. SWEET! Thanks, brother.
ahhhh…I've lived the dream….
I doubt if this is anywhere near where you were heading with that comment, John, but it reminded me of what Gandhi said about being a Christian and a Jew and Muslim and a Hindu. We all have far more things in common than what we differ on, yet it is those differences which we continue to obsess us. Good post. You get a 100% plus 10 points for extra credit since you didn't get anything wrong.
On #1, Paul wrote to the Corinthians that Jesus became poor so that we (his followers) would become rich. He also clarified what he meant: To have sufficiency for everything (assuming every necessity) and an abundance for every good work. This suggests to me that Christians possessing oodles of wealth is a good thing if they give alot of it to every good work. OT and NT make is clear that helping the poor to get out of poverty is a good work important to God. It is the love of money and an opulent lifestyle seems oxymoronic.
On #4, #5, #6, #8, #9, and #10, your point about tracking one’s own humility more than judging, intruding, selling, and endless doing this or that as if it all of it is God is a good one. Jesus’ doing was often preceded by either all night or early morning pray vigils. On the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said do not judge others and Paul later seconded it. Those who beat up or otherwise verbally abuse fellow citizens of the kingdom are promised severe punishment in the end. Nevertheless, Jesus did commanded his followers to meditate when the Holy Spirit came upon them; he told them to go and make disciples of all peoples and/or nations. We Christians do a lot of stuff not exactly relevant to that commission. We are told to judge others by their fruit (I don’t think he meant apples, oranges and the like) and by behaviors–like the Corinthians sexual immoral behavior. In Paul’s long list of hell reaping evils in Romans, homosexuality was not left out. I do not think Christians can drop the gay issue. For reasons beyond the sin, the gay agenda is a global one in which they seek to force all others to tolerate or accept their practice as something it is not. Training up children to believe the lies they intend everyone to believe is likely to have rotten consequences. But you are right, after we return from our heavenly rapture/resurrection, they will still be here–but not for long. The problem is how many will thy take with them. Sodom and Gomorrah was not merely about two gay cities. The story is about a society tolerant of immorality. Real homophobia or sinphobia is to have no relationship at all with gays or other non-believers. School and work and similar associations should provide plenty exposure. Of course, secularists have legalized the separation of religion from the public domain. That seems widely believed anyway.
On #2, #3, and #7, how incredibly true. One confusing doctrine is the Trinity. It is presented as a mystery revealed that cannot be understood because its a mystery. It appears to be intellectual dishonesty, Therefore, truth is not the most important aspect of Christian belief. It is no mystery. By inferences, the Trinity is three god-persons who make up one Godhead–not one mysterious god-person–who are like a family. God the father is the chief, Holy Spirit is the source of the son and life, and the Son carries out the family plans; hence, Jesus is redemption, redeemer, and Lord.
"One is good for we Christians; one is good for everyone. As much as I personally would like it to be, America is not a Protestant country. It’s a Catholic country, and a Jewish country, and an atheist country, and a Buddhist country, and a Mormon country, and (yes) a Muslim country."
As far as I know Catholics are Christians as well, especially in the context of values. There's no need for a discrimination in terms.
Well said however, you're quite right =)
Peace
Hi again John, I had a few moments to read your 10 things and I still am in agreement. I have been a “Christian” all my life but I did not feel the lord in my soul/spirit/being until much later as an adult. I feel that Christians get too caught up in practices and religion and get too far away from Christ’s message of loving each other and taking care of this world that we were blessed with. So Jersey I hear you! Unfortunately, my perspective has been bashed, which some Christians tend to do, but I am working hard to live a life that is inclusive and loving towards Gods people-and we all are whether that is accepted or not. I attempt to be an example of Christs hopes for us Christians and I will be the first to admit my humaness and that even as a Christian I’ve sinned, but I ask for forgiveness and ask God to fix that which is not acceptable so…..Thanks again John. I enjoy reading your blogs and the dialog it generates. Oh and I too am a Christian inspite of Christians who tried to make me “the mold” Christian. God is good!
Blessings
Russ: Yeah, of course you’re right: Context IS everything. And insofar as that’s true, everyone ultimately has to decide for himself what, relative to anything they believe, is absolute, and what subject to modifications based on relativistic considerations. Choosing between those two relative to any sort of belief system is just … part of being an adult, isn’t it?
On the subject of interpretation of scripture, we can learn a little from the way Jesus Himself interpreted scripture. He tended to point to the broader spiritual implications. He was neither historical/critical nor strictly literal in His interpretation. "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18) When He quoted this in Mt. 22:39, He did not say we should practice it only toward our spiritual brothers; His intent clearly was that it should be practiced toward all people. When He taught on murder He did not limit Himself to a literal interpretation of "You shall not commit murder" (Exodus 20:13) but included using our mouths to curse another human being, who was made in God's image, or even harboring hostility or hatred toward someone, as violations.
On wealth, it is our attitude toward it that matters. Are we its master and we use it for God's purposes (and it is ok to enjoy some of it)? "A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind." (Ecclesiastes 2:14) Or is it our master, and we seek mainly our own enjoyment of it? "Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless." (Ecclesiastes 5:10)
It seems hard to set an arbitrary income ceiling for Christians. The median income in the world might be $3000 a year or something, but we would be walking around destitute in this economy if we did that. Would that glorify God? But we can still resolve that we will seek to make a difference for others rather than seek to become rich ourselves. "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." (1 Timothy 6:6-10)
John, evaluating scripture in its historical context does not render it useless. It allows us to more accurately understand scripture. All scripture is ‘culturally conditioned’. By interpreting his words to the rich young ruler as a timeless call for all Christians to “go and sell your possessions and give to the poor” you have unjustly condemned almost every Christian in America. I am sure that you well know that even the poorest Americans are far richer than those in Ethiopia or South Africa.
The popular hermeneutic of the West is to read scripture egocentrically, as if it were written directly to us making Jesus, primarily, a teacher of timeless truths. I don’t deny that Jesus taught timeless truths but we must first understand what he taught in context of its historical setting. The rich young ruler obviously valued money over devotion to Christ. There is no doubt that being ‘rich’ is the source of much temptation above that experienced by those who are poor, but to impugne those who are ‘rich’ on that basis is unjust.
The failure to consider the context, historical setting, the audience, and the speaker results in a multitude of absurdities. Suppose, for example, we read what Jesus told Peter at the last supper the same way. Here is the verse.
Mat 26:34 Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, on this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.”
Should I assume from this verse that tonight I will deny Jesus three times before I hear a rooster crow in the morning. Of course not! We have to consider that Jesus was speaking to Peter the night before the crucifixion rather than read what he said from an egocentric perspective. I could provide a thousand other examples but I will simply ask you this question and maybe it could facilitate my point. Were you, a Gentile, who has never been subject to Torah, redeemed from the curse of the law?
Russell: in a bit of hurry, but will do my best:
1. I don’t think so. Absolutes are absolutes. If the meaning of what Jesus said so often and plainly about believers in him giving their all to the poor can be validly reassessedin light of its “historical context,” then virtually anything he said can be. Which means eveything in the gospels is subject to relativistic reinterpretation. Which means it’s basically useless.
2. I’m not understanding the message of the early disciples being “definitely political.” Maybe I’m missing something; I just don’t see that. I certainly do see, though, where Jesus said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” It just seems to me that the Founding Fathers were right: Church and State belong apart, insofar as you don’t want public policy determined by religious conviction. Of course Christians should confront and oppose injustice. But justice isn’t a Christian concept or term; it’s a universal reality. ALL people, regardless of their religion, should oppose injustice.
John,
I have one question and one point.
1) Is it possible that, by reading the scripture about the rich man as if it were addressed to a reader in the 21st Century (egocentric) rather than to a rich youn ruler living in the first century (historic), you are taking the verse out of context?
2) My statement has to do with your point number five. You stated that the Church and State don't belong together. I agree that America should recognize the freedom of religion but the message of the early disciples was most definitely political. When the state acts contrary to justice we, as Christians, are obliged to confront it and seek necessary changes.
Those living in the first century didn't delineate between the categories we so easily seperate of 'religion' and 'politics'. One hearing the message of the Gospel then would have heard that if Jesus Christ is kurios, Ceaser is not.
John,
Keep sending these awesome blogs to me! When I first became a Christian many years ago I tried to attack people with Jesus. Of course, I did not realize that is what I was doing at the time. I mean, why wouldn't everyone want this miraculous Gift!!
Then, after a few horrible falls of my own, and much searching of His Word, I realized so many things. In trying to save the world, I became spiritual in my own eyes…like "Oh, I am so glad I am not like poor (YOU KNOW WHO)…and, "But by the Grace of God Go I" and many things to make myself feel okay. After a few falls, God showed me who I really was…and then forgave me! Now, the one thing I know for sure is this: I am to "LOVE" others and hope and pray for them. It is a comfort to know that He is so longsuffering with us. We need to realize that things are not always as they seem in someone else's life. People act different ways to fulfill some longing in their hearts. Jesus has so much compassion for us. Who are we to behave any different. You can get a whole lot farther with someone if you react and act in love, rather than attacking people with the Gospel.
Live out our faith…others will see.
Thanks so much for sending this my way. Thanks for including the fact that you still fail and struggle, as we all do.
I completely agree that we need to stop the fixation on gays and lesbians – a sin is a sin – we treat homosexuals as if they are committing the one unforgiving sin in our made up rule book. Do you see Christians hating those who have eating disorders, those who have affairs, etc…these are ALL sins against Christ and glorifying Him with our mind, soul, body, and heart. Who are we to say that this person over here who had an affair is OK because even though God said it was a sin, he's gonna be OK, but this person over here who is a lesbian is a goner and needs to told how horrible they are.
John, good post. We need to be talking about this stuff. It is important that we continually examine ourselves, ask ourselves what we are doing and why. Discipleship is, I think, the biggest challenge for the church in America today. Evangelism cannot happen on a large scale until discipleship improves greatly. We cannot lead others to Jesus unless we are following Him ourselves. And right now, there is too much talk and not enough walk. I speak as one who was one of the worst offenders in that regard. If all of us who consider ourselves Christians were doing everything Jesus commanded you would not be able to recognize the church in America (or America), it would be so different.
Kelly, you are not alone with a heavy heart about the force the church should be. “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.” (Matthew 5:14-16)
1. As Janiece said, the Spirit will tell us what to do with our wealth. The bible has a lot to say on this topic and we need to look at all of it. Very true that we cannot serve two masters.
2. Today I know that God looks upon me as if I was righteous because of the blood of Jesus, and I want to please Him, not grieve Him. In the past I was ignorant of the first thing and thoughtless as to the second.
3. Again as Janiece said, we're the ones who make it complicated. Most of the bible is very straightforward. God is not trying to fake us out. There are sections that are difficult. God wants us to explore those, to study, pray, seek greater understanding. We should approach them with an attitude of humility. We should be able to discuss them with each other in a brotherly and sisterly way.
4. I wish we were too action-oriented, if it would be the actions Jesus commanded: Tell people the good news, love one another, obey His commands, love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (granted, we are not really being persecuted today in America but we can pray for believers elsewhere), feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the naked, visit those in prison.
5. I agree and feel that taking control of the levers of state power and using them to impose 'Christianity' from the top down is not God's plan for the church. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. If we will hear/read God's Word, believe the Word and do what the Word says, there will be no need for such a scheme because there would be no stopping the church. It would spread like wildfire. We cannot impose belief. We cannot make the seed grow. We only sow the seed; God makes it grow.
6. We do need to sow the seed. Again, we must first be walking the walk, or trying to tell people would be worse than nothing – it would bring discredit to the name of Jesus. In my experience people will come to you and bring it up when they realize you are for real. The time will come when we must actually talk about what we believe. “…do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.” (Matthew 10:19-20) Everyone and their spiritual journey is different. Mine is different from yours is different from the next person. Again be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit.
8. Agree. We need to stick to our beliefs but remember to do it the way Jesus would. There is a lot of room for improvement here. Exactly what the bible teaches regarding orientation vs. acts is another discussion.
9. Yes, If everybody we know is just like us we may need to get out more. For instance, if we know homosexuals it helps with no. 8.
10. Yes, there is way too much fratricide in the church. How can I get so obsessed with someone else's supposed theological failings when there is so much of what Christ commanded yet to be done?
LOL!!! I LOVED the one that said that “We are too confident that God thinks we are all that and a leather bound gift Bible.”
With your permission, I will have to use that one sometime… Too funny!!!! (And oh, so true!!!)
I think you have great points here.
My opinion is that we are all saved and chosen before time having nothing to do with our “asking”. In other words, I believe He chose us — it’s out of our control whether people are saved, but it’s commanded from us in scripture to still preach the gospel. Seems contradictory, but then again — we are super finite in our ability to interpret scripture to begin with AND there are things we just won’t understand until we get to heaven. That will be one fine day, and I just can’t wait.
Also, I do believe that the best way to preach the gospel is to just live it.
Hi John! I just stumbled upon this post, and I am SO glad! This is AWESOME! You summarize so well so many things I’ve thought in the past 4 years since I moved into a neighborhood with some very devout Christians. One family in particular has taught me a lot because they tend to be on the Religious Right whereas my family is on the Liberal Left. And all too often, I have walked away from them angry and frustrated because of their attitude that their way is so much better than mine. I’m not even sure they even know what my way is. They’ve never asked me. And when the lady across the street had surgery and needed meals and transportation, where were they?
Nothing makes me angrier than the evangelists who come to my door to “save” me. They never ask me anything about myself. How do they know that I’m not already saved? What if I were some super-spiritual being who could save them?
I know the Bible says that we have to go out into the world and tell everyone about Christ, but every good salesperson knows that there’s a right way and a wrong way to do that. If someone comes up and starts preaching at me, I’m going to walk away faster than I can hang up on a telemarketer. But if they live their lives in a way, that makes me take notice, that is the strongest message of all.
Anyway, I’m printing this post out. It’s a keeper! Thank you.
My faves are #2, #3, and #4. Thank you for giving us all things to think about above the mundane. Blessings.–kathleen
Hi, John… you’ve got some good points here… I really like 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, and 10, but I have to take issue with number six.
I don’t know very many Christians, with the exception of my father, who is mentally ill, who are overly pushy with their faith and intrusive of others. That may be just the crowd I hang out with, but I don’t see many Christians witnessing and preaching the Bible at all. We have to remember Christ’s final words to us when He lit out for heaven to hang out with His Father for the next several thousands of years:
That’s rather direct, I think. I know, I know, someone’ll probably say “go back to number 3!” I still think there’s a lot of people who don’t share Christ enough or the right way.
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