Last year I posted a notice on Craigslists all over the country saying … well, exactly this: “I’m about three months away from finishing a book I’m writing for a large, established, reputable Christian book publisher. [I had to say this true thing so that people would take it seriously.] It’ll be my third published book. This one is about the relationship that generally exists between Christians and non-Christians. In it I want to incorporate maybe thirty 100-250 word statements wherein non-Christians–in their own words, in casual, straight-ahead, first-person style–say what they think of Christians generally–and specifically how they feel about the dynamic wherein Christians try to convert them. I want to be very clear that this is NOT a Christian-bashing book; I wouldn’t have sold it to such a prominent Christian publishing house if it were. It’s coming from a place that only means well for everyone. Thanks.”
Within about four days I had in my inbox over 300 statements from non-Christians. I found they made for some seriously depressing reading. Here are some of them:
“The main thing that baffles and angers me about Christians is how they can understand so little about human nature that when, in their fervor to convert another person, they tell that person (as they inevitably do, in one way or another), ‘You’re bad, and wrong, and evil,’ they actually expect that person to agree with them. It pretty much guarantees that virtually the only people Christians can ever realistically hope to convert are those with tragically low self-esteem.”— E.S., Denver
“I feel that Christians have got it all wrong; it seems to me that they’ve created the very thing Jesus was against: Separatism.”— T. O., Denver
“I am often distressed at the way some Christians take as a given that Christians and Christianity define goodness. Many of we non-Christians make a practice of doing good; we, too, have a well-developed ethical system, and are devoted to making the world a better place. Christians hardly have a monopoly on what’s right, or good, or just.”— C.R., Seattle
“Christians seem to have lost their focus on Jesus’ core message: ‘Love the Lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.’”— R.M., Tacoma, WA
“I have no problem whatsoever with God or Jesus—only Christians. It’s been my experience that most Christians are belligerent, disdainful and pushy.” — D.B., Atlanta
“Whenever I’m approached by an evangelist—by a Christian missionary—I know I’m up against someone so obsessed and narrowly focused that it will do me absolutely no good to try and explain or share my own value system. I never want to be rude to them, of course, but never have any idea how to respond to their attempts to convert me; in short order, I inevitably find myself simply feeling embarrassed—first for them, and then for us both. I’m always grateful when such encounters conclude.”— K.C., Fresno, CA.
“I don’t know whether or not most of the Christians I come across think they’re acting and being like Jesus was—but if they do, they need to go back to their Bibles, and take a closer look at Jesus.” — L.B., Phoenix
“I grew up Jewish in a Southern Baptist town, where I was constantly being told that I killed Christ, ate Christian babies, and was going to hell. So I learned early that many Christians have—or sure seem to have—no love in their hearts at all. It also seems so odd to me that Christians think that if I don’t accept their message my ears and heart are closed, because it seems to me like they have excessively closed ears and hearts to anyone else’s spiritual message and experience. They seem to have no sense of the many ways in which God reaches out to everyone. As far as I’ve ever known, Christians are narrow in their sense of God, fairly fascistic in their thinking, and extremely egotistical in thinking God only approves of them.”— B.P., Houston
“I wish Christians would resist their aggressive impulses to morph others into Christians. Didn’t Jesus preach that we should all love one another?”— M.G., Shoreline, WA
“I’m frequently approached by Christians of many denominations who ask whether I’ve accepted Christ as my savior. When I have the patience, I politely tell them that I’m Jewish. This only makes them more aggressive; they then treat me like some poor lost waif in need of their particular brand of salvation. They almost act like salespeople working on commission: If they can save my soul, then they’re one rung closer to heaven. It’s demeaning. I always remain polite, but encounters like these only show disrespect and sometimes outright intolerance for my beliefs and my culture. In Judaism, we do not seek to convert people. That is because we accept that there are many paths to God, and believe that no one religion can lay sole claim to the truth or to God’s favor. Each person is free to find his or her own way. To Christians I would say: Practice your religion as you wish. There is no need to try and influence others. If your religion is a true one, people will come to it on their own.”— M.S., Honolulu
“When did it become that being a Christian meant being an intolerant, hateful bigot? I grew up learning the positive message of Christ: Do well and treat others with respect, and your reward will be in heaven. Somehow, for a seemingly large group of Christians, that notion has gone lost: It has turned into the thunders and lights of the wrath of God, and into condemning everyone who disagrees with them to burning in the flames of hell. Somehow, present-day Christians forgot about turning the other cheek, abandoned the notion of treating others like they would like to be treated themselves; they’ve become bent on preaching, judging, and selfishly attempting to save the souls of others by condemning them. What happen to love? To tolerance? To respect?”—S.P., Nashville
“There are about a million things I’d like to say to Christians, but here’s the first few that come to mind: Please respect my right to be the person I’ve chosen to become. Worship, pray and praise your God all you want—but please leave me, and my laws, and my city, and my school alone. Stop trying to make me, or my children, worship your god. Why do we all have to be Christians? Respect my beliefs; I guarantee they’re every bit as strong as yours. Mostly, please respect my free will. Let me choose if I want to marry someone of my own sex. Let me choose if I want to have an abortion or not. Let me choose to go to hell if that’s where you believe I’m going. I can honestly say that I’d rather go to hell than live the hypocritical life I see so many Christians living.”— D.B., Seattle
“I had a friend who was, as they say, reborn. During my breaks from college she invited me to her church, and I did go a couple of times. In a matter of a month, at least ten people at her church told me that I was going to hell. The ironic thing is that I do believe in God; I’ve just never found a church where I felt at ease. However, in their eyes, I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved. I stopped going to that church (which in the past four years has grown from a small to a mega-church), but in time, through my friend, have seen some of these people again. None of them ever fails to treat me exactly as they did four years ago. All I can say is this: Constantly telling someone they’re going to hell is not a good way to convert them.”— A.S., Chicago
“I am a former ‘born again’ Christian. It’s been my personal experience that Christians treat the poor poorly—much like the Pharisees did in the parable of the old woman with the two coins. I found the church to be political to a fault, and its individual members all too happy to judge and look down on others. As a Christian, my own fervor to witness was beyond healthy. My friends would come to me to vent and express emotions, and all I would do is preach to them. I was of no real comfort to them. I never tried to see anything from their perspective.”— J.S.W, Philadelphia
“Once Christians know I’m gay, the conversion talk usually stops. Instead, I become this sympathetic character who apparently isn’t worthy of the gift of Christ. From my childhood in a Baptist church, I recall the ‘loathe the sin, love the sinner’ talk, but as an adult I can’t say I’ve often found Christians practicing that attitude. Deep down, I’m always relieved to avoid disturbing “conversion” conversations with Christians; discussing one’s most intimate thoughts and personal beliefs isn’t something I enjoy doing with random strangers. But at the same time, I feel as though Christians make a value judgment about my soul on the spot, simply because I am gay. I don’t pretend to know the worth of a soul, nor the coming gifts to those who convert the masses, but I would guess converting the sinful homosexuals would merit a few brownie points. But I get the feeling that most Christians don’t think we’re worth the hassle.”— R.M., Houston
“Religion always seemed too personal for me to take advice about it from people I don’t know.”— D.P., Denver
The above comments are taken from in my book I’m OK–You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop, published in early 2007 by NavPress. (About five such comments appeared at the end of each of the book’s chapter, under the heading of “Ouch.”)
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Posted by Sabina on January 30, 2008 at 11:07 am
John,
Very depressing and unfortunately I can relate. As a Christian I often found a conflict between what I read in the Bible and studied with reality (Christian/religious practices) . For years I stopped going to church because I felt isolated and oppressed, saw otheres being isolated and oppressed and just couldn’t be a part of that. I then spent some time looking for a church were I was able to worship where I felt included. Its difficult. As a Christian, I want everyone I love to be in heaven and I want to get there, but I am absolutely not interested in making people feel bad about not being a Christian. I try my best to share the good news, but I know full well that I’m not perfect-no Christian is and its not good to pretend that we are.
Posted by Sabina on January 30, 2008 at 11:10 am
John,
Bless you for being willing to start these dialogs and provide an avenue for people to talk and heal. I hope you know how important this is and I am so grateful to have found this blog.
Posted by windyblue on January 30, 2008 at 11:39 am
We cannot force Jesus on anyone. Some people just do not want to hear it. And shoving Jesus down their throats just makes them angry, and they back off more. I work with many people who do not believe in God. They do not attend church either. They remember as a child be forced to go to church, and this turned them off to it totally.
Prayer is a powerful thing, and its just best at times to pray for a person and leave them in the Lords hands.
Posted by wineymomma on January 30, 2008 at 12:04 pm
That was thoroughly depressing. It actually causes me physical pain to think of this being someone’s idea of Christians in general. The one thing that i try hardest to show people is that for me being a Christian is all about love and grace. Not about intolerance and judgment.
Wow
WM
Posted by Billy on January 30, 2008 at 12:06 pm
John maybe to balance things out it would be encouraging to hear how former no-believers came to Christ because someone did witness to them and they were confronted with their sin nature. I’m on your mailing list and read new articles when you post them. I may be wrong but it appears to me that you have a tendency to blame your brothers and sisters in Christ for always turning non-believers off. Sure that may be the case many times but not always. Why focus on the negative all the time?
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Sabina: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Way to … represent Christ, frankly.
Winey: Yeah, this stuff is just wounding. And the incredible thing is, I was expecting so much rage with these letters–but, instead, overwhelmingly, what I got was sadness and confusion. As I say in the book … well, this, exactly: “Where I expected mostly anger, I got instead a kind of pervasive, resigned bewilderment. If you boiled down to one thought the overall sentiment most often expressed in the nonbelievers’ collective statements, it’d be, ‘Why do Christians hate us so?’”
Awful.
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Billy: Now, now: No fair. If you really do read my stuff on any kind of regular basis, you know that I hardly “focus on the negative all the time.” In fact, of my last 20 posts, exactly TWO could be in any way construed as “negative”–yesterday’s and today’s. Seems like a reasonable ratio, no?
I’m not sure they’re negative, either. I think that’s too easy an assesment. If you’re trying to do something right — like, say, not alienate non-believers — it seems to me that it’s just as positive to consider what isn’t working as it is to consider what is. More positive, really: What’s working, after all, doesn’t need attention.
Posted by Billy on January 30, 2008 at 12:44 pm
So there is something that is working? Please share.
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Well, one posting at a time, my friend. (And, honestly, I personally couldn’t tell any “See how trying to turn people who aren’t Christians into Christians works?” stories. I’m certainly not saying such stories don’t exist — of course I would never even suggest that. What I am absolutely saying is that I personally have never known anyone who was converted as a result of being evangelized to by a Christian — and I’ve never known anyone who has converted a non-believer by evangelizing to them. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I’ve never been told a story by anyone who knew of an occasion when a Christian converted a non-Christian. I’m sure such stories exist, of course. But I can definitely say I’ve never heard them. So I’m afraid someone else’ll have to tell that sort of story.)
Posted by Billy on January 30, 2008 at 12:54 pm
John, what I’m saying is when it comes to evangelism or witnessing unless I missed something, (which I may have) the focus is always on how poorly Christians do that. The onus is always for Christians to be perfect in our witness/sharing and to be ever so sensitive to not offending others.
I read how missionaries are being persecuted every day. Physically beaten, homes burned down, churches destroyed all for reaching out and sharing the Gospel.
Read a few of these articles http://www.gfa.org/persecution or visit Voice of the Martyrs.
Today one of your brothers or sisters in Christ will give their life for witnessing. Part of the price they are willing to pay.
Offended or Martyered? Who again is suffering the greatest?
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Billy: I’m sorry; you’ve confused the issue. I didn’t write anything about Christians in foreign nations being being martyered for practicing their religion or evangelizing. That’s horrible, of course. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. Two … totally different subjects.
Posted by Dave on January 30, 2008 at 1:24 pm
” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all?
Dave, the Baptist. from Texas
Posted by Greta Sheppard on January 30, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Like Sabina said: “Very depressing”.
Seems ‘christians’ are damned if they do and damned if they don’t!
Maybe all christians should become hermits, so those who aren’t can continue in their…um…. whatever you want to call it, lifestyles. How sad that their cage has been rattled! Light has always disturbed Darkness. Right has always confronted Wrong. Justice has always confronted Injustice. Love has always confronted Hatred. Problem is, some who hate refuse to be loved. I echo both comments by Sabrina.
More power to you, John. Thanks for ‘being in touch with the times’! You have been gifted with a measure of wisdom for this time in Time.
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Dave: Good point! Yes! True! Not sure what it has to do with this post, but … Great point!
Greta: Could you BE any kinder?
Posted by Samhain on January 30, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Good post, John. It’s very informative and helps us to realize that our actions affect how others see us Christians. One thing I’ve learned from studying theology is that non-Christians really notice our hypocrisies. LaVey pointed out the “Christians” he noticed that attended clubs or bars where he played piano and then the same gentlemen attended the same church on Sunday where he, again, played piano!
One thing both sides tend to forget is that we’re all human, none are perfect, and realizing that fact goes a long way. R.E.S.P.E.C.T…
Anyway, if one is living their life accordingly, others will notice. Be ever humble, patient, and faithful; God will take care of the rest.
Posted by Dave on January 30, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I quoted A.S. from Chicagos’ entry about Non-Christians telling Christians what they think of them.
Posted by Cathy on January 30, 2008 at 2:14 pm
I, too, am dismayed that non-Christians see us as pushy, intolerant, and hypocritical. And I agree with Greta–no one is perfect, and the whole light/dark, love/hate, right/wrong analogies she made are great. My comment to any non-Christian is: I am not perfect, I am human! Get to know Jesus if you want to know what perfect is!
(Just finished reading “I’m OK You’re Not”. Excellent book. Thanks for that)
Posted by Billy on January 30, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Cathy, all you can be concerned about is how they see you. If you accept that they “all” see “us” that way then that belief could keep you from witnessing. Is it better to offend six and save one than not share at all? Can a person who is already lost be more lost? One response from a Craigs list inquiry is not enough data for me to come to that conclusion. How am I to even know they were being honest in their responses?
Scripture however does say this. John 7:7 – The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Billy: If the save-to-alienate ratio for domestically evangelizing Christians was anywhere NEAR six-to-one, you’d have a point. But it’s not even in that universe, and you know it. We ALL know it.
And it wasn’t “one response” from the Craigslist posting: It was well over 300 in less than four days. And why would they write with DISHONEST personal testimony? That’s … not reasonable.
And about your quote: GOD telling someone that they or the world is evil is one thing. A PERSON telling another person that they and/or the world is evil is a whooooooooole other can of repellent.
Posted by Billy on January 30, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Brother John, first the response was to Cathy.
Six to One? No John I don’t know it, not sure how anyone can. It was an open question. I don’t know it, how can anyone?
Why are we to assume their response are all honest? Why would I assume they are reasonable? Like I said it is not enough info for me. If others want to buy into that is their business. I think you have faulty data. Just my opinion.
The world is dirt, people are what make it evil. We will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Penlee on January 30, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This will be a good and needful book John if any find it depressing they have a problem. Winning people to Christ should be as Jesus said like catching fish. That is with wisdom, love, listening not pushing your ideas on them, not judging, not having to agree with them but being wise in your responses, showing you are interested in them and more importantly gaining their friendship, confidence and trust to leave the door open.
Posted by Sergmummy on January 30, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Hallelujah for Penlee. Honestly I haven’t gone through all the readings because I just popped in before I run off to a class. But I thank John for putting this particular topic out there because a lot of the ‘older’ Christians (not necessarily matured) do like to tell non believers how bad and evil they are…and sometimes even shun these people…not showing the love of Jesus Christ at all. I am not saying that we should get in the ‘miry clay’ with the non-believers, but at least remember when we/they (the old ones) were in the miry clay, what it was like to be looked upon by the Christians of our time…how we felt that we could never be made clean – but THANK GOD FOR THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. I love you John – and you don’t even know me.
God bless you all.
Posted by Morse on January 30, 2008 at 3:48 pm
“” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all? ”
…………………………………………..
Um…nope.
But hey, if it works for you, great!
John,
Those are some very interesting letters. As a non-believer, I think I’d like to add that it seems many Christians (not all) seem to go from the assumption that a non-believer has never heard of Christianity. Living in America, I think we can both see how silly that assumption is. Most non-believers were either Christians at one point or have experienced it through others and the culture, since 75% of the population is some sort of Christian.
This, in my eyes, is why most witnessing really fails. We’ve heard it and we’ve made our choice.
It’s almost like vacuum cleaner salesmen coming to your door. You’re happy to listen to the first one’s pitch and then send him on his way. You may even be fine with the next three or four who come to your door selling the same thing. But when you have to turn salesmen away every day it gets a bit frustrating, and you may blow up at one.
Unless you enjoy debating and driving salesmen crazy, like I do.
Posted by PJ on January 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm
We don’t have to be hateful as Christians, but if respect means agreeing with them, we just can’t do it. Jesus loved everyone, but to those that rejected him, he clearly told they would not be let into the Kingdom. We have to act with love, respect, but also dignity. We should rejoice when we are rejected for knowing Jesus. I get rejected all the time, but I know that I’m doing what the Lord wants me to, and that the good news might not convert someone immediately, but that the Lord will work in their hearts with that seed, and maybe later, they will hear the message again and be touched. God will work with them when He desires. Sometimes people don’t want to hear the message, and they get offended because they’re uncomfortable. Sometimes they’re right, we might be too aggressive. Just look at Jesus and the way that he preached. Some loved, some hated, but he was always loving. Sometimes he angered. We must always speak with LOVE. That’s the whole point. But we should never agree with anything that is contrary to the message, no matter how offended people are that we think they are going to hell if they don’t accept Christ. After all, we were headed straight over there!
Posted by tam on January 30, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I really debated weighing in on this one… John, I can relate to all the comments the non-Chirstians sent you. It is what I experience from many Christians.
Luckily I know many decent Christains who actually practice love, tolerence, resepect and decency… or I would end up detesting the whole lot of Chirstians. John, you are a great example of one of the good Christians…
Take it from a non-Christian: tolerance and respect goes a long way. And that is something we are not shown by many Christians. Many of us non-believers are just as strong in our faiths as Christians are, and it doesn;t make us evil, full of darkness, etc.
For the Christians: how would you feel if someone was telling you that your religion is wrong or evil, that you are going to some form of hell, that things you belive are okay are sins, that someone is praying that you change your religion, and all the other things Christians use on non-believers? Would it make you likely to convert and give up your religion? Or would tend to annoy you?
I respect a lot abput Christianity and Jesus, it is many of his followers that I think are the problem.
Posted by Brian Shields on January 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm
After recovering from my crying fit that John didn’t post MY “Non-Christian Statement”, I did what any self-respecting egomaniacal model agnostic would do and dug it out of my e-mail. So here goes:
“As a non-believer educated in the Scripture, I would say I would have much more respect for most Christians if they lived and preached the Beatitudes of Matthew, rather than emphasizing the moralistic social dogma of St. Paul and the non-Gospel books of the New Testament. I also often wonder why Christians pay so much attention to Christ’s death and (alleged) resurrection, rather than to the liberating lessons of his life and teachings. I also find that most Christians who try to evangelize don’t have the knowledge of the Scripture they should, which leaves them unprepared to answer the tough questions about their religion.”
Posted by PJ on January 30, 2008 at 4:04 pm
“” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all? ”
…………………………………………..
Um…nope.
But hey, if it works for you, great!
_________________________________
This is what I’m talking about. If they’ve heard the message, and they just don’t want to hear, if they don’t want to accept that there’s only one true God and that he has a son…
we have to love them anyway. And we have to accept that they’re rejecting Jesus as their savior. But as Christians, we simply can’t accept that “all paths lead to God”, or that “there is no God”. Sorry. And that’s what some people don’t like. That evangelizing is part of what we believe. That we think Jesus is the only true way. We just have to do what we have to do, which is evangelize (with love and respect), and when they reject the message, respect their decision, and move on…don’t get hung up over not “converting”. God converts, not us. But we can’t assume that everyone’s heard it. Some people are very uneducated about what us Christians believe.
Posted by John Shore on January 30, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Folks: Mr. Shields, a well-known television producer in the San Francisco Bay Area, was, I believe, the very first person to respond to my Craigslist posting; since then we’ve become something of e-pals. He runs the fabulous weblog, “Today’s Cool News,” which you can link to under “Links” in the column to the right.
Brian! Did your comment here make it into the book? I believe very much it did, but can’t be positive. I don’t see why not; it’s wonderful. Anyway, for the ones I put here, I simply went in order of the way they appear in the book–so perhaps yours in in one of the latter “Ouch” groups, if that makes sense. Anyway, yes. Good points here.
For an agnostic, you’re not a bad guy.
Holy cow! There’s been a lot of comments here. They’ve been so good, too: so rich, and obviously heartfelt. I wish I had time just now to comment on them all, because I really do so APPRECIATE them all.
Brian: I DO have awesome readers, no?
Posted by PJ on January 30, 2008 at 4:13 pm
If someone else’s religion said I was going to hell and felt bad for me…
I wouldn’ t think a thing of it. Jewish and Muslim religions already do think that of me. I don’t hate them, I don’t feel sorry for them. I just believe what I believe in, not what they do. I can accept them as people, and get along with them, but I can’t accept what they believe. And I understand that that’s what some nonbelievers want to get across. Our religion says we have to speak, and that’s what we do. We don’t know if you already have rejected Christianity. We have to accept that you don’t believe it, but you have to accept we can’t not say it. Now that’s tolerance. We can’ t just be separate, I hope you agree with me on this. You already don’t believe, and I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me. I know the thing people hate about us is our evangelism. We can’t change that one thing, but we can change the reason of our evangelism back to Jesus and his love.
Posted by Andy Christensen on January 30, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I’m reminded of a co-worker I knew several years ago. We were talking briefly and somehow we happened across the subject of church. She said something like, “I need to start going to church, or I’ll be in trouble, won’t I?” We had to cut it short there for some reason, but I wanted to tell her that we’re all in trouble, we’re all in the same boat, but Jesus came so we could be saved.
A few things God wants us to hear:
(non-believers take note:)
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:3)
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14.6)
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
(judgmental believers take note:)
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)
(hypocritical believers take note:)
“…you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? As it is written: ‘God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.’” (Romans 2:21-24)
(overbearing believers take note:)
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” (Matthew 10:14)
Posted by kayoung on January 30, 2008 at 5:19 pm
John, thought-provoking as always. Comments, too. I will soberly meditate on the love of GOD in Y’shua to see how I should behave in word and deed to others, those who do believe in the Word and those who don’t. It isn’t an either-or, this matter of loving others by telling them about the Way, the Truth, and the Life … and loving them by helping them along the way of life, listening to them when they express what they do or don’t think or understand about truth, and living the Life as we live life alongside them, interacting with them as caring people, getting involved with their concerns to the degree they invite us to. The container our light can so easily be hid in comes in two sizes: silence when words are wanted and words when silence is wanted. I only pray that I will be more sensitive to others and sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Not either-or … both. I have failed most miserably when I’ve cared most heart-wrenchingly.
Thanks once again, John, for giving us all much to think about and a place to discuss these things. –kathleen
Posted by Christian on January 30, 2008 at 5:35 pm
It’s pretty simple, isn’t it? When Jesus (as well as some others) say “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” why do so many assume that he isn’t applying this rule of life to our evangelism as well? Yet how many time have I heard that to be zealous, rude and dogmatic with those who do not believe is exactly what we would want if we were in their shoes? After all, the stakes are so high.
But it ain’t so. We all crave respect and when people listen to us we tend to listen to them as well. I’ll take a gamble here; no one comes to Christ through intimidation and ridicule. Those aren’t his tactics, they’re the other guy’s.
Posted by breezy on January 30, 2008 at 5:38 pm
you know I love ya John but Billy does have a point…have you ever put the question to those who have been converted?
Billy made the correlation between six offended and one saved, do you not think that you might get 50 stories (in four days) of non-believers coming to Christ as a direct result of some one sharing the gospel (good news) with them?
Many times the minute I tell someone I believe in salvation through Christ (I have not addressed myself as a ‘christian’ in over a decade because of the immediate dislike non-christians have displayed) the whole tone of any conversation we may have had changes. Is this because of their preconceived notions of christians in general or is it really as Christ said,”people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.’
Now to address your statement, “It was well over 300 in less than four days. And why would they write with DISHONEST personal testimony?” God said “ALL mens (mankinds) hearts are excedingly wicked” . Do I personally think all 300 are false testimonies, no. I do think there are voices that need to be heard from the other side though…(just to let you know I came to believe because someone had the guts to tell it like it is and lovingly pointed me to Gods laws – The Ten Commandments – which revealed my sin toward God and my desperate need for a saviour)
Before I came to believe I too was filled with disdain for those who thought they were so godly and holy, after all I wasn’t a bad person. And I knew there was a God and I’d get to Him when I was good and ready to give up all the fun I was having. It was my body so I could get high if I wanted. Abortion? MY body! I was an HONOR student, studying for my PhD. I helped out at the SOUP kitchens and FOOD pantries. I was a GOOD person.
But nobody had the guts to tell me all my works and all my protests about being so g–damned good would mean absolutely nothing once I came face to face with my creator.
Should we risk offending six to help that one back home…Christ says we should leave NINTY-NINE behind to guide that ‘one’ back home….
My ‘friend’ (who at the time I certainly didn’t view as a friend) told me something that shut my mouth against all my rationalizations against Christ. He said, “You know when I look at someone who doesn’t know the truth of Christ, I see a human being trapped in the only room not consumed within a burning building. Sure, trying to expain in a loving, non-judgmental way that he’s gonna burn to death would be lovely but grabbing him by his shirt collars and throwing him out the window to the waiting firefighters below is what’s gonna save his life.”
I stick to my earlier post where I stated that once I’ve told the good news (all mankind sins against God when we break His laws.The punishment for sin is eternal DEATH. He is an Almighty loving God who, because we are part of His family, will do anything to save us…even to become the perfect sacrifice for us all) after that short, direct witness I tell them, “Go read the book – it’s all in there.” Does it offend people? H-ll yes, am I to worry about it? No. Do I continue to force feed them doctrine? No…I pray for them and continue to prepare myself should they come back for seconds.
p.s. This is one thing I need to get off my chest …and it’s directed towards Christians primarily. Stop picking and chosing which commandments are ok to break and which ones you can use against your fellow man.
Homosexual sex and pre-marital sex are the exact same thing – sins against God. Just like loving money is, just like hate is, just like lying is, just like forgeting the sabbath is, just like looking at your neighbors wife/car/dog and thinking “I wish I had one like that” is….to break any commandment is to break them all. Breaking a commandment is sin. Sin is death.”
Posted by Morse on January 30, 2008 at 5:49 pm
“Homosexual sex and pre-marital sex are the exact same thing – sins against God. Just like loving money is, just like hate is, just like lying is, just like forgeting the sabbath is, just like looking at your neighbors wife/car/dog and thinking “I wish I had one like that” is….to break any commandment is to break them all. Breaking a commandment is sin. Sin is death.”
The above may be part of the reason why the largest growing religious group in the country is the non-religious.
Posted by Wingless_Angel31 on January 30, 2008 at 5:52 pm
maybe what we Christians need to remind ourselves is that we were once sinners too. then maybe that way we will get off our high horse of ‘holiness’. the conviction of sin should be the Holy Spirit’s job, not ours; we are only interfering with and frustrating God’s redemptive purposes if we do not do what we are supposed to do: exemplify God’s love. when the prodigal son returned to his father his dad didn’t go about telling him that he deserved to die because he ran away or that he should have been disowned. his dad threw a feast for him. hugged him even though he stank like pigs and ate what was offered to the ‘unclean’ animals, making him worse than unclean. his dad continued to love him tenderly before he returned – before he repented. shouldn’t we, too, love our neighbours in such a way that we do not condemn what they do but tenderly exemplify God’s love even before they repent? the principle is this: converts don’t need an extra dose of guilt and shame; when the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin, they are full of it. what they need is the demonstration of God’s love and mercy.
Philip. =]
Posted by Wingless_Angel31 on January 30, 2008 at 6:01 pm
that being said. when it is necessary. confront the sinner in love and truth. without either, it is not God’s way.
Philip. =]
Posted by dsrtrosy on January 30, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Breezy–who on earth would “come back for seconds?” Bless your heart. Jesus’ good news was a message of love. He didn’t need to convert people to believing they were sinners before he met their real and specific needs–met them right where they were, in sin or out of it.
Posted by kayoung on January 30, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Breezy, the Bible says people need to hear the law first and then the grace; otherwise, they feel no need for the grace. Thanks for sharing that aspect of this discussion. Yes, the motive and delivery are of paramount importance, but we all need to get past our feelings for or against this-that-or-theother and get our heads and hearts in the Book and see what God/Jesus say and show is Love. Also, your P.S., Breezy was so right-on. I’m grateful to John for pointing out, through these e-mails he’s reprinted here, how very important it is to examine our motive and delivery. That doesn’t negate motive and delivery. May we all be instructed by the Lord and His Word. In His love–kathleen
Posted by Second Michele on January 30, 2008 at 7:44 pm
This is a good discussion – I think I might weigh in more later but…
Kayong, about the law needing to come first…
You do see that model being used by Christ with the rich young ruler.
The ruler asked what he could do inherit eternal life, and Christ, (amazingly, saying nothing about grace, His impending death on the cross, or the sinner’s prayer) tells him to keep the commandments
The ruler pressess the matter, and Christ zeroes in on the commandment the guy is NOT keeping (Have no other gods before Me. The ruler loved his money more than God and wasn’t willing to part with it)
So in that case, Christ starts with the law and conviction of sin. And for some people, this is the best place to start
But note Christ’s actions in John 4 while talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. Christ first
1.) Asks for help
This does an amazing job of breaking down the wall of prejudice.
Non-believers think believers think they are better than them. Samaritans thought the Jews thought that they were better than them.
Christ, knowing this woman would feel judged by people in His ethnic group, first shows her that He does not consider Himself too high and lofty above her to ask for her help.
A little humility goes along way.
2.) Next, Jesus shows her that He has something she needs (Living water)
3.) After she has shown interest and evidence that the Holy Spirit is working on her heart – then and only then, does Jesus start in on her about the five husbands (AKA, the law, conviction of sin.)
I think it is very instructive to look at how Christ dealt with people coming from differant backgrounds. At the very least it shows us that we should not rely on a one-size-fits all approach to witnessing.
Whether you are a person who tends to go right up and confront people with their spiritual state, or someone who is very uncomfortable making such confrontaions, God may ask you to break away from your “formula” for a specific person
There is no subsitute for asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit on reaching non-believers.
Posted by hughvic on January 30, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Hello, John. First, your book topic is worthy not only of a premier publisher of religious titles, but also of any academic press interested in publishing worthy titles in Sociology of Religion.
Second, I trust you realize that from the standpoint not of Sociology but rather of Anthropology, several of the interviews excerpted here represent superannuated adolescence, in the context of this country’s uniquely and increasingly intense and protracted coming-of-age process. (As many ethnologists since Mead have shown, not all cultures “do” adolescence, and nobody but nobody does it like we Yanks do.)
Finally, in your research for and composition of this work, did you ever get the creepy feeling that what these non-believers are reacting to (or against) are manifestations of something other than Christianity, by professed Christians? I reckon I mean this in a Kierkegaardian sense; that all of your work on this subject may amount to the detection of a vast, complex and, frankly, diabolical set of categorical errors evengelized by dark proselytes unawares. Principalities of the air, and all that.
I’d point to, for example, the strong evidence here that these non-believers are reacting in almost every case to persons who actually have no idea what Christianity is and is not and who therefore tend to mistake it for, e.g. bits and pieces of fitfully received incantations or even just vaguely religious-sounding words without any real Christian referent or meaning.
Call me Father Tireseus, but I get the strong feeling that these non-believers were meant by a certain power to react with precisely the revulsion they evince. That’s why I used the word “creepy”.
Pax Christi,
Hugo
Posted by tam on January 30, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Sigh…
Some of the comments on this post make me feel there is hope, and others make me very sad and realize that many Christians simply will not respect or show tolerance for those who are non-Christians.
BTW PJ, I think tolernace is a little on-sided if you think it covers Christians constantly brow-beating the non-believers.
John, I will say again that you are one Christian I really respect, and I think your really show and live your faith through your actions. I thank you for that… and for accepting those of that are not -Christaians and trying to start a dialog that respects both sides. I wish more were like you.
Posted by Cheryl on January 30, 2008 at 8:16 pm
The 300 responders to your Craigslist posting sound as if they might be sharing essentially the same frustration: talking the talk is not the same as walking the walk.
Sadly, that is not an inconsistency limited to Christianity or Christians.
But as I recall, Christ’s message, and ultimately His gift to us, is based on the idea that since we are human, we will sometimes fail. Failing, in fact, is a defining characteristic of a Christian — an acknowledgment that perfection and salvation can only come through Him.
Posted by tam on January 30, 2008 at 8:31 pm
John, I do no mean to monlopolize your comments but I feel the need to respond to Cheryl.
Cheryl… the frustration is not primarily the “talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk”. Yes, the hypocrasy of some Vhristians does affect ones general over-view… but it really isn’t the key frustration.
What is most frustrating is the lack of respect and tolerance. I respect your beliefs… why can’t you respect mine? Why must you, once you know I am secure in my beliefs and do know of Christianity, try to keep changing them? Would you really appreciate it if the shoe was on the other foot?
Yes, I get one of the tennents is to spread the word… but many of us have already heard the word and decided otherwise. Respect that! It is not somehow that you failed in conveying it to us, that we are just evil or in the dark, that we are somehow unenlightened. Accept we heard, we understand, and just believe otherwise.
Posted by Catherine Howell on January 30, 2008 at 10:21 pm
When I first became a Christian many years ago, I practically attacked people with the Gospel! I was a mighty church worker…there all of the time. It took me falling a terrible fall to see how much I needed to depend on Christ. I quit being a mighty worker…always there, and always feeling guilty when I was not. It also made me see just how forceful I had been in some of my approaches to others. I truly know in my heart that Jesus Is The Way, The truth, And The Life…The only Way. I also realize that Jesus Himself said to be ready to give a response…if asked. People will follow an example more than a thousand mighty words. I, too, stayed out of church for years because I got so sick of the ‘church game!’ All of the gimmicks certainly make me ill! Where is the simplicity of loving our neighbor as ourselves? It seems that people that are not Christians are much more willing to be friends than people in the church. Everybody seems too busy trying to be a super saint to get down in the nitty gritty dirt of the true needs of others. We finally found a place where we started going and have yet again gotten involved with the worship group…and there are already those putting everything under the magnifying glass. This should not be! I realize we are all just human…and apt to fail. But how are we ever to be an example!! If the believers cannot ever get along with each other, then how are we to help or be an example to anyone else? Like the Word states: Get the board out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from someone else’s! Let us all examine ourselves first!
Great Blog. None of this surprises me. I realize that there are some unbelievers that are trying to find any excuse to ‘not believe.’ I have known a couple. Then there are some that have truly been damaged and chased away. How sad. To everyone that reads this that is a non-christian. I aplogize if I have ever failed in front of you. Unfortunately, I struggle to grow in Christ. It is not easy. The world gets worse by the second. I get made fun of. People call us brainwashed and weak. I have two natures that war against each other. Hey, when I was living against God…nothing ever bothered me. You know, live and let live! But I will tell you this: I would not trade the night that He forgave me for all of the riches, money, sex, or possessions in this world. I am a rebel at heart…rejected by my earthly father. He still forgave me!
Keep writing these awesome blogs!
Posted by Michael Joyce on January 30, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Brilliant. I keep coming to your blogs John! I’m addicted and am always eager to “dip my toes in your pond.” So, here’s my two cents:
I grew up Moravian, was baptised when I was a baby…became what many would call an agnostic in high school, and returned to religion with a new zest after taking several religion courses at St.Louis University. Understanding different religions, in my opinion, gives the learner a much-needed perspective on human nature, culture, history,… the whole enchilada. It’s not just a recommendation,… I feel this is essential, especially to Christians. Christians can love people the way Jesus intended by understanding exactly whom your “neighbors” are!
Posted by K. A. Young on January 31, 2008 at 12:19 am
Second Michele, thank you for the remarks about NO FORMULAS. Amen. I appreciate the reminder–needed it.
–kathleen
Posted by Ferdie Cabiling on January 31, 2008 at 12:33 am
thanks for this john.
post-modernism is truly alive and well in our world today…
this might last for the next 500 years, who knows.. so might as well leave behind our modern ways of doing ministry…
lets engage the culture so we can fullfill the the GC effectively.
Posted by Ray on January 31, 2008 at 1:46 am
Hm, can’t remember subscribing to your email, but thanks anyway.
Nice blog, and really good statements of non-christians this time.
For me the problem starts when people think they’re better than others just because of their religion, because ..well, they aren’t. I would tell them that anybody who thinks he has to do something for an ‘afterlife’ is just plain stupid. They should look up ‘end’ or ‘death’ in the dictionary or just think about it. We have to life in here and now and make the best out of it. That is important.
..but I don’t tell them, cause I’m friendly and everybody should be able to live by their own beliefs. And that’s my agnostic-thinking difference.
Regards.
Posted by creedorchaos on January 31, 2008 at 2:05 am
John~
Great post, although I wouldn’t say I ‘enjoy’ it–this kind of thing reminds me of Merold Westphal’s suggestion that Christians read things like this for Lent, so that the deep failings of the church drive us back to our only hope, in Jesus who never failed. I have 2 comments:
1) I think the state of affairs in the US — covered in a Christianity about 3000 miles across and about an inch deep — is such a big part of the dynamic we’re talking about here. Just about everybody ‘out there’, it seems, has heard it all before, didn’t buy it, and wants to stop being harassed. I totally sympathize; if I had the bulk of what was passing for ‘the faith once for all delivered to the saints’ these days foisted on me, I would be repelled also. And this is nothing new, of course; some of the staunchest and most thoughtful opponents Christianity has ever seen have been those who came up against exactly the kind of ephemeral moralism that hangs thick in the air in and around so many churches, like LA smog.
Having recently moved from California to Scotland for PhD studies, I can say that some (not all!) of this is different, for a variety of reasons, one of them being so few professing Christians.
2) Along these lines, it seems the church so often never actually gets around to the GOSPEL–whether in the pulpit and pews or out. If the gospel is ‘the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes’, and if the gospel is an announcement of something we’ve never heard before, something that God has done through Jesus Christ (instead of simply a lifestyle of trying to be like Jesus), then the message and the method must follow suit. A huge part of the reason why non-Christians have ‘heard it all before’ is that many have never really heard the gospel before, because it’s the only thing that’s NEW–it’s the only thing that’s different from everything else we know and assume and feel.
The gospel comes to us taking away all hope in ourselves and offering all hope in Jesus, who died the death we deserve to die and lived the life we should have lived, gaining all our standing before God, accomplishing all on our behalf–a reality freely offered to those who look outside and apart from ourselves and trust in Jesus alone (which is what ‘faith’ means). THIS is foolishness to the world, precisely because it’s nothing like anything we know and believe in and of ourselves. But it’s also the wisdom of God.
Because this is the gospel, Christians should never come across as self-righteous (because Jesus is all our righteousness) or hypocritical (because in and of ourselves we’re EXACTLY like everyone else) or proud (because we have received the gospel and everything good we have as a gift, not as a paycheck). This isn’t directed at ‘bad’ Christians out there; it’s for me too–if we believe the gospel, we have to believe that we have nothing of ours to appeal to before God or before the world, except Jesus on our behalf.
That’s why the Bible calls the church ’saints’ and ‘righteous’ and ‘holy’, because we have Jesus, the only holy and righteous one–or rather, Jesus has us. We all as Christians have to say with the apostle Paul, ‘Not I, but the grace of God that is with me.’ And isn’t this, then, how we should approach our fellow human beings with the gospel? In our weakness and Christ’s strength?
~B
Posted by mcclaud on January 31, 2008 at 3:09 am
I’m still a Christian as it were, although my choice is to follow Jesus’ teachings and the Bible without bending knee to the institutions of Men that often cause more problems than they solve. This is why I’m no longer a “Catholic” so to speak, and more of a man of my own religion.
I often try to see things the way a non-Christian sees them, and I do see the point of this book. The problem is not when Christians treat other people well – when Christians act like good Christians, why criticize them? Brian seems bent on saying that we need to focus on both sides, but that’s not the purpose of the book. The purpose of the book is to look at the reasons why some non-Christians have legitimate issues with Christians. And the issue is that a lot of Christians tend to be over-zealous, less-than-pious, and self-righteous to the point of being even too much for other Christians! There are plenty of responses in these comments that prove that to be too true.
That is the issue. And that’s something a book should be written about. Something that makes us – the imperfect mortals – re-evaluate our approach and think about the Faith. To assume we are too good for doing such is self-important and misleading. It does not hurt to revisit our convictions internally. It does not hurt to listen to the criticism, and see if we ourselves are at fault.
If we’re not at fault, then we should take measures to be sure we’re never those zealots and indignant worshippers who drive away others. We should take comfort that we are doing our best and proceed to do good in the Creator’s name.
Posted by the evolved ape on January 31, 2008 at 3:10 am
John,
I think that your post is a brave and interesting step in the right direction.
I fear though that a change of attitude against the members of the “other” group is not enough to resolve the overall conflict.
As long as we define and classify ourselves and others primarily according to our religious beliefs or non-beliefs there will be a potential of conflict. What we need to do is to establish humanism as the right measure for ethics. It should be secondary if we believe or not in this or that goddess or prophet or whatever. This is of course more difficult for Christians (or Muslims or Jews) who are trained to think that their moral standards are God given hence supperior.
Posted by Paula on January 31, 2008 at 6:18 am
I don’t see what is so depressing about this article. I know there are many so-called Christians who are self-righteous and hatetul, but that’s to be expected if you read your Bible. Jesus said many would cast out demons and prophesy in His name and He would tell them that He never knew them. Jesus also told us that many would be called but few would be chosen. That tells me that we should expect to see alot of self-described Christians behaving like heathens.
As far as the opinions of non-Christians, most of the opinions in this article are just personal perceptions that seem to me to be influenced by the world -Satan-more so than ‘bad’ Christians. Don’t get me wrong…I know there are those who have had really bad experiences with the church…but most of the comments I read sound like people who have a very limited understanding of Christianity with little or no desire to learn more. The things they complain about most are the things that Christianity is most about….Jesus Himself said that He alone was the way, the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father but by Him. This is construed as egotistical and narrow minded by non Christians, even though we didn’t come up with it….Jesus did. Jesus was also anything but tolerant. Apparently people think that love and tolerance of intolerable behavior are the same thing. Non-Christians don’t like being called sinners? Well….what are we supposed to tell them? That is what we believe…..that *everyone* is a sinner but God loves us anyway. They seem to really like Jesus and most of His message….all except for the *dying for our sins* part.
I was born and raised in a Christian family, turned away from the church for a long time and recently came back for good. I find it interesting that so many people have had such bad experiences with Christians, because it has been *my* experience that *most * of the Christians I have known were good, kind and loving people.
I also experienced a time when church made me feel uncomfortable, until I realized that the discomfort was coming from within and not from the people in the church. When I owned up to my sins and confessed them to God I was changed forever. Some folks sadly just don’t want to hear that.
Posted by Brett on January 31, 2008 at 6:22 am
John
Thank You for bringing these feelings to light!! What shot of reality. Bottomline is we need to see this world for what it is.. Fallen!!! We need to just Love . God give us an awesome gift in the freedom of choice. All we are to do is share the Good News and he will do the rest. People will live as they wish and we can’t force anything.
We have a ” Church ” group coming to our hometown to protest the FUNERAL of a young man killed in Iraq, I thought this is a great way to witness to the Lost. But it is what it is . God will use this for His Glory.
Good stuff!! When we think WE have it all figured, God has a way of remindung us we don’t.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Truly a blessing for us all.
B
Posted by kayoung on January 31, 2008 at 6:23 am
To SecondMichele (I hope you don’t mind, John, if I reply once again to her reply to my comment on your blog–smileyface): At 2a.m. my mind was a little sluggish, and so my response to your response to my comment wasn’t complete. Even though, yes, no formulas, the turning point in Jesus’ conversation with the woman at the well was when he let her know that he knew about her immoral past and present (5 husbands and the one you are now living with isn’t your husband). She wasn’t just excited to find a fortune-teller; she knew she had found the Messiah. The great thing is that He didn’t condemn her (tho being GOD, He had the right and the power); instead, he offered her the living water so she would never thirst again. The only “formula” we need is the Gospel, which doesn’t begin with Matthew; it begins in the Torah. GOD’s holy standards show man’s inability to meet them and need for sacrifice provided by GOD. This was and is the pattern. Those of us who believe, first recognize who and what we are in the sight of a holy GOD, then we recognize the sacrifice He has provided and our need of it, then we can enjoy relationship with Him. But you’re still absolutely right, SecondMichele. The presentation of this good news is not formulaic. It’s as personal and filled with love and consideration as the GOD Who commands then sacrifices Himself to fulfill those commands so we can live in love with Him forevermore.
And I gotta say, amen and amen to Creedorchaos.
Way to go, John! I’ve never seen blog comments exceed 50!!
Posted by ric booth on January 31, 2008 at 6:56 am
John,
about your comment: “GOD telling someone that they or the world is evil is one thing. A PERSON telling another person that they and/or the world is evil is a whooooooooole other can of repellent”
AMEN.
The WWJD mindset is so often misused. I have to remind myself that Jesus could SAY exactly what the person needed to hear because HE (Jesus) could see directly into that person’s heart. We humans do not (thank God) have that vantage point. When we attempt to do or say many of the things that Jesus or God did or said (e.g., “you brood of vipers”) we do so by means of enormous judgment based on, often extremely limited, observations of their external behavior. And this is a sin all of us Christians are guilty of.
We need to stop trying the remove the sins of the world. We are not qualified for that job … and besides that, It is finished.
Posted by hughvic on January 31, 2008 at 7:33 am
tam,
I appreciated your comments. As they came directly following mine, I’m not sure whether you were counting me among the intollerant. In any event I’d like you and John to know that I have been in almost daily dialogue for a long time with non-believers—specifically, with activist atheists—who are seeking greater freedom of expression of their convictions, a project I wholeheartedly support. I’ve always found ecumenism far more difficult and disingenuous than my conversations with non-believers. There’s a strong theodical element, though, to John’s project. I’m not a mystic; nonetheless, I can feel it. My guess is that he may too, though I’d be surprised were he comfortable with my terminology.
Posted by My Church Issue « So Supercilious on January 31, 2008 at 7:34 am
[...] people who do that, or people who are dying. And my age bracket and I are invincible. But I found this and had to make a post about my Church [...]
Posted by Billy on January 31, 2008 at 8:24 am
Ric, ok, how about this, a believer tells an unbeliever that God says “The world and the people in it are evil?”
I spoke to a friend this morning and asked him how he came to Christ. He said his sister-in-law would always get on his case about how he was living. He use to get mad at her, but she persisted. Eventually he came to Christ and now is in full time ministry. He now says he is glad she did. He said what was making him mad was he was being convicted of his sin nature.
People get over being offended, they never get over being lost.
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 8:32 am
Hugh: Real quick. I’ve heard your argument … well, for at least a year now, from innumerable people. The argument (sp??) is that people who reject Christianity aren’t, in fact, rejecting Christianity, but rather the INFERIOR, errant version of Christianity communicated to them via the evangelizing efforts of Christians who basically don’t know what they’re doing or saying. I’m FOREVER being told that people who REALLY know how to evangelize, who REALLY understand Christianity, who REALLY have the Holy Spirit within them, are GREAT at evangelizing, and should really be the only ones out there doing that.
Real Christianity, goes this argument, is forever suffering at the hands of what amounts to inferior Christians promoting a weak, bastardized version Christianity.
If you’d like to see my full response to this arguement, I’m afraid I’ll have to refer you to this terribly long (but at least truly comprehensive) interview with me: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=608205&event=ESRCN We discuss this at right about the middle of the interview
The short version of my answer to the case you and others have made about this is this: Take the loser, errant, unhelpful, unenlightened Christian evangelizer. Now take the fully enlightened, Spirit-based, fully-informed, fully articulate Christian evangelizer.
Now. Find the difference in what they would actually SAY. My contention–which no one has yet to even almost disprove–is that they’d say the exact same things. They’d talk about the same things. They’d point to the same evidences. They’d use the same arguments. They’d quote from the same Bible. They’d use THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE. Salvation. Hope. Sacrifice. Redemption. Heaven.
Same, same, same. As it must be. A Nobel prize winning author and a schmoe off the street are going to tell the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears in pretty much the exact same way. Cuz there’s only ONE story there.
Your argument that people who reject Christianity only do so because they haven’t been exposed to the RIGHT Christianity is (besides being functionally, practically impotent, since you can’t DO anything about all these loser evangelizing Christians out there blowing it for the rest of you wise, true Christians) founded upon a spiritual and intellectual elitism that, on the ground–in actual, spoken practice–has no more difference between it and what it looks down upon than a finch does from a wren.
All ANYONE being told they need to become a Christian is going to hear is that they’re wrong. You tell someone they’re wrong, and you just alienated that person from you. Which means you’ve then broken Christ’s Great Commandment with that person, since it’s impossible to love someone with whom you have no relationship at all. Thus the contention of my book: In too zealously persuing the Great Commission, we neccessarily fail at the Great Commandment.
Posted by nats on January 31, 2008 at 8:45 am
i think christians would convert more people if everybody wasnt trying to be a preacher. after all preaching is a calling to which most of us are not called to. Our job is not to tell people how bad they are but how good the word of god is and its upto the individual to choose which path to take. Conviction is a very personal thing and when we are forceful about getting people born again they miss the point or rebel against christianity not because they dont believe but because they feel it is being impossed. I am a christian myself and i must say after reading those comments I could see that we do behave in a self righteous holier than though manner alot of the time and its not right. we should take the time to listen and hear the other parties views etc and when given the chance tell them ours and let them see it God’s way not our way.
Posted by hughvic on January 31, 2008 at 8:48 am
I’m sorry, John, but that happens not to be my argument. I’m quite familiar with that one too, and look forward pretty eagerly to looking into how you’ve dealt with it, as I’m sure you’ve done so better than I have done. What I mean is really a theodical question: what role Satan in all this? A bit more specifically, what role, if any, via the professed Christians? (Please understand that “it’s against my religion” to judge who’s an ontological Christian and who isn’t; I’m basically a Kierkegaardian, so I can say only that I pray that I am a Christian.) Perhaps it would help if I explained that I believe that Christianity lasted about 30 seconds, and that after that, sacrificial (false) religion crept back in. So, the most extreme of distinctions between the two cities, the two churches.
Posted by Ingrid on January 31, 2008 at 8:56 am
I did a post a few months ago entitled “The Paradox of a Fundamentalist Liberal” which explored this very topic. We as Christians have to embrace the gentleman in the Lord. He would never force himself upon us and it is not in his will that we force him on others
Posted by Billy on January 31, 2008 at 9:06 am
Ephesians 4:11-12
11: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers; 12: for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Any action for Christ without seeking God first and asking for His guidance will probably fail. If evangelism is your gift, and you want to be effective then you must, above all else, pray first before you share or witness to others. Some people confront others with the Gospel, some are relational, different tools for different jobs. Main point being if you ask Christ for His guidance and ask Him to use where you are and with what you know, He will.
If we spent as much time praying as we do arguing, we could be more effective in our witness. Myself included.
Posted by pontiacdan45 on January 31, 2008 at 9:44 am
John,
I can’t believe all the responses to this topic. I guess we do a pretty lousy job, as Christians, remembering to be humble in our approach to the Great Commission and the two greatest commandments. We come off like the gong in First Corinthians Thirteen. For it is all about people and love. I believe a well placed word, a hug, being an example and not pretenting that the “Christian” life and those of us who subscribe to it are always right, always patient or always anything.
In a recent survey Christians listed knowledge and practice about love as the most important Christian virtues. How can that be?
I’m new to word press, but I like what I see so far. Keep up the great work.
Dan
Posted by ric booth on January 31, 2008 at 9:51 am
Billy,
Concerning your 1st point, what if someone said God says, “…”
It has been my experience that everyone has been introduced to the God of wrath and judgment. It is the God of mercy and love most are unfamiliar with. This is true within and without the Church. Barna’s surveys serve to illuminate this issue quite well.
To your second point, the example of a man who is thankful for his sister-in-law’s tenacity. The key words in that description are “his sister-in-law would always..” I suspect an authentic relationship of love and heart-felt concern was behind this sister-in-law’s words and actions. The time she committed (“always” implies they saw each other several times over a long period of time) illustrates / reveals a love that he, no doubt, had not seen before.
Someone can be the bible/Jesus in someone’s life but never in someone’s face.
Posted by Sabina on January 31, 2008 at 11:04 am
The bottom line is that God doesn’t need us to convince anyone to be a Christian. God will reconcile His people to Him. We as Christians need to do what we are specifically directed according to what we believe is our guide (the Bible) and that is to love one another-if we forgave each other-truely and loved one another truely, this world would be so much better. Our behavior as Christians can either be a beacon for folks or a deterent-each Christian has to decide if they will show Gods grace, mercy and love through thier actions or not.
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 11:14 am
Thanks, Dan. And Amen, Sabrina.
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 11:37 am
Another point about why the “My Sister In-Law Helped Convert Me” story fails to support the argument that evangelizing to nonbelievers is good is because the kind of evangelizing we’re talking about here–the kind nonbelievers undestandably have so little tolerence for–is COLD CALL evangelizing, the kind where someone you don’t or barely know starts telling you what you should believe. That’s not anywhere near the kind of relationship this guy obviously had with his sister-in-law, who was a constant, long-standing figure in his life. INTIMATES discussing faith with you is one thing. A stranger telling you you’re wrong for whatever you believe in is certainly another.
Posted by Billy on January 31, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I thought the issue was not to offend anyone, because my friend’s sister-in-law was did offend my friend initially. He got over it. But now I understand that it maybe ok to offend someone you know, a relative? As far as cold calling analogy. I’ve never know anyone, and I work with missionaries, who ever considers “telling someone” what they should believe. That is not sharing the Gospel. I don’t personally believe there is a magic formula for evangelism. Sometimes strangers receive the Gospel from strangers, sometimes friends ignore it from friends. How are any of us to know in advance if the person you witness to has a friend who has been praying for someone to witness to them, and your are that someone?
What determines a stranger? Does it take a face to face to relationship or can that be established, in like a blog? Am I a friend?
Posted by hughvic on January 31, 2008 at 12:15 pm
My God in Heaven, what a stunningly fab question, Billy. What does determine a stranger? Who is the ontological Stranger? Who the Friend? Who the Enemy? Who the Outsider? The Bible treats all of these, throughout, but I never thought to frame it so straightforwardly as you do. Wow.
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 12:24 pm
You can’t tell the difference between a friend of yours, and someone you’ve never met before?
Wow indeed.
Posted by Billy on January 31, 2008 at 12:36 pm
hughvic,
Brother I have a lot more questions than answers. This I do know, God says His Ways are not our ways. For that I am grateful.
Posted by Billy on January 31, 2008 at 12:46 pm
John, where did I say that? I asked what determines a stranger because you said the following, and I quote, to a woman who asked why Jesus. Somewhere here on your blog.
“You’re born human. That means you’re extremely inclined to be selfish, greedy, snarky, gossipy, lazy, impatient, mean-spirited, ego-driven, etc., etc. You’re just born to … self-promote, shall we say. It’s not all you’re born to be: you’re also born to be virtuous and kind and loving and so on.”
I’m asking if she was a stranger because if she was you “seem” to be breaking your rules on evangelism. Never offend a stranger.
I’m at a point where I can recognize the difference between someone I know and some I don’t. It was a challenge. (tongue in cheek)
Posted by pontiacdan45 on January 31, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I guess I have one more thought about this. If hell is the absence of God, and it is, for all eternity, why wouldn’t we use the most charm filled approach possible to get people engaged in the debate. The debate about their souls.
Because God selects us, not the other way around. So all we’re trying to do is present thoughts and ideas, or life style examples, so someone is curious about Christianity.
A church can attract people many ways. Saddleback and Willow Creek have a certain appeal as does Saint Patrick’s Catholic Church in downtown Chicago. But every church has something in common. They all must attract the curious and then give them a reason to return again. Failing that, stagnation sets in and people never have a chance to hear about the Good News. Even those who are born in the faith, as we Catholics like to say, still need a reason to return.
Whether in word, deed or the 90 minutes spent at worship on Sunday, people look for a reason to belong. If we’re smart, we give them that reason. As they grow in faith and knowledge, they realize, as we do, that love asks how not why. Love is a patient, thoughtful approach, not strident or rude.
Dan
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Billy–I was answering Hugh; I knew my comment would go directly beneath his. But you ask, “What determines a stranger?”
Um. Well, a stranger is someone you’ve never met before. See? Easy. (And PLEASE let’s drop this now. It’s just too … stupid, basically. You understand, I’m sure. Resist commenting for awhile, if you’d be so kind?)
Posted by Carina on January 31, 2008 at 1:32 pm
It’s convicting… but also encouraging because a lot of it is true. Lord, and people who yet do not believe, please forgive me. Our focus as Christ’s disciples should be on HIM. And so often, you’re right, we lose sight of what we were made to be.
I’m glad I read this today.
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” –John 13: 3-5, 34
Posted by Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there will it lie » Blog Archive » Ouch! Not Quite What You Want to Hear… on January 31, 2008 at 1:33 pm
[...] What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear « Suddenly Christian [...]
Posted by Kelsey Martineau on January 31, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Good post. I didn’t read through the comments, so maybe this has been mentioned, but I’ll say it anyway. To me, the whole focus of Christianity has been lost. Most Christian’s focus to much on converting, spreading the word, and shoving the “you’re going to go to hell” message down people’s throats, when in reality, their lifestyles should be the prime example of how to live, in their own opinion. Like I said, the whole focus has been lost. Churches have become enthralled in politics, boards of trustee’s, deacons, elders, etc… Most of them have become more like an agency or corporation than a house of worship. On that note, most churches (not to bash them, but particularly the Catholic Church) have turned a time of worship into a strict ritual. I’m not saying I know God’s intent for our worship, but I have a feeling it’s not what He had in mind.
I’ve seen churches turn away people that weren’t well-dressed enough, that were homosexual, or bi-sexual. This isn’t what Jesus had in mind when he preached the gospel. Religion as a whole has become far too controversial. Not only are religions fighting each other, but sects within religions argue over doctrines, beliefs, and standards. The problem stems from societies inability to admit that their own personal beliefs may not be right. Simply my opinion, though.
Posted by hughvic on January 31, 2008 at 4:05 pm
But John, in Him we are neither gentile nor Jew, bondsman nor freeman, male nor female, but rather are all one, a family. There is no stranger, no outsider. Come stoning time, the scapegoat always is the one with a difference. It’s usually a perceived outsider. Sometimes it’s a whore or a Nubian, or a club-footed person. Sometimes it’s a radical rabbi from Nazareth. But in the light missing from Golgotha, we see that these are all false distinctions—categorical errors. As Billy says, our kin are beyond our ken.
So I’d argue that Paul was trying to tell us that in Christ there are no strangers. Moreover, we will know Him when we see Him for the first time.
Posted by My Giant Head « Suddenly Christian on January 31, 2008 at 4:36 pm
[...] would be a good time to take a break from the Major Commentary Action happening with my last post, What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear. Before too very long I am sure we will revisit the topic of Christian and Non-Christian Relations [...]
Posted by Daniel on January 31, 2008 at 4:38 pm
So what is evangelizing anyway? Is it preaching? Is it winning souls? What is the appropriate method(s)? 4 step, D James Kennedy’s Evangelsim Explosion, let er rip? Is the content the gospel, Jesus only, personal experience…? Jesus told many religious leaders of his they were snake-devils, hypocrites, children of the devil, and the like. The the gospels and epistles, and Revelation all cover hell, God’s wrath, and why people will experience it. Jesus came for people to gain eternal life, which OT and NT teaches even evildoers will live forever anyway. Someone mentioned yesterday that hell is life without God. Death is life without meaningful relationship and eternal life seems to mean an unending relationship with God. Jesus preached to crowds who followed and later demanded his crucifixion, but the few who hung with him no matter what received the Spirit, power to be witnesses unto Him, and were eventual killed because they refused to accept, believe, and or speak what powers that be (then) determined was right. They were terrible multiculturalists, moral relativists, and pantheists. Those are the stars of the early church, but the many mentioned in Acts who fled persecution for their beliefs worked and shared their experiences and the message upon which it was based. The unknowns are said to have increased the size of the church (if I remember correctly).
Posted by Daniel on January 31, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Sorry, I got carried away. John thanks for another provocative topic.
Posted by Deltachord on January 31, 2008 at 7:27 pm
As a Christian, I think this is a good discussion and as someone who has before been treated in a very ugly confrontational manner by Christians…it is easy to understand the complaints about the way some Christians approach others.
Really, maybe that is the problem, approaching non-Christians verbally, perhaps we need to show them Christ through who we are and our actions, rather than trying to talk them into conversion. Actions do speak louder than words.
Posted by Lisa Harris on January 31, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I agree that we as Christians often do more harm than good which pains me greatly, yet this should not prevent us from advancing God’s Kingdom by way of The Great Commission. As one who feels a burden and a compassion for the lost and currently attends seminary, sadly, I don’t feel Christians share their faith enough! While I admit we must work more intentionally at forging genuine relationships with unbelievers, there comes a point when we must share truth in love if we sincerely love them as God does. I know more Christians who are petrified to share their faith for fear of rejection. Many of the posts were clear evidence of the darkness not wanting to be exposed to the light, but it is the light of truth that sets us free! I trust this book provides helpful insight for Christians who earnestly desire to share their love of Jesus Christ. God does all of the wooing, but in His mercy He has chosen broken vessels to be the messengers of His saving grace.
Posted by yaelbatsarah on January 31, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Tam,
I like your comments: What is most frustrating is the lack of respect and tolerance. I respect your beliefs… why can’t you respect mine? Why must you, once you know I am secure in my beliefs and do know of Christianity, try to keep changing them? Would you really appreciate it if the shoe was on the other foot?
Yes, I get one of the tennents is to spread the word… but many of us have already heard the word and decided otherwise. Respect that! It is not somehow that you failed in conveying it to us, that we are just evil or in the dark, that we are somehow unenlightened. Accept we heard, we understand, and just believe otherwise.
and I don’t think you’re being heard. It was something I wrote on one of my blogs about how once people become enamored with an ideology, other people become invisible to them. People like you and me, we’re invisible here. Who sees us for who we are? We’re just ‘lost souls’ needing to be ’saved’.
If we can’t be reached then that just means back to the drawing board to figure out better tactics….
The good thing is in real life where I can interact with Christians one on one, I’ve been able to see a change, the moving over just a bit to leave one tiny space in the world of God which others besides themselves can occupy. I never ask them to give up their beliefs, but just to allow that question to exist, that perhaps they don’t have God locked tight in their God box after all. It’s a slow process, my patience is ever tested and often runs out, but then I start all over again.
Interesting the comment about not knowing anyone who has ever converted as a result of being evangelized, I don’t know anyone either, but I can give long lists of converts to Judaism who converted in spite of Judaism not seeking converts, who converted in spite of rabbi’s turning them away three times, who converted in spite of the requirement to spend months or years studying and becoming part of a Jewish community prior to being allowed to convert. At my shul about the time Rabbi finishes studying with one convert, another person desiring conversion requests to begin studying with him. It is pretty amazing. Zechariah 8:23 but only the persistent will make it through, most will go back where they came from, hopefully with a deep respect for us and a realization that we do NOT need Christian ’salvation’.
Not that anyone here will see me. I’m invisible…..
Posted by hughvic on January 31, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Well “shove me in the shallow water”!
Posted by John Shore on January 31, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Now, now, let’s not get dramatic. I’ve seen you, Yael–and appreciate what you’ve written here. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
Lisa: You said, “I agree that we as Christians often do more harm than good … yet this should not prevent us from advancing God’s Kingdom by way of The Great Commission.” When we try to advance God’s kingdom by way of the GC, do you think we MOST often do more harm or good? Because if you think we MOST often do more harm, than we SHOULD stop doing whatever we’re doing to “advance” God’s kingdom. (And we are doing more harm than good. The proof of that is that American churches spend 50 to 60 BILLION dollars a year on domestic ministry–yet, right now, for the first time in this country’s history, less than 50% of our population is Protestant. Mainstream churches are losing members or flatlining. We’re obviously losing more people than we’re bringing in. Which means we’re failing. Which means we should stop already.)
Posted by Adrian on January 31, 2008 at 10:37 pm
I’ve been too lazy to read all the responses so I’m not sure if this has been said but does anyone notice how wrong alot of the respondents are in their knowledge of Jesus? The impression seems to be that Jesus was just about love and ‘your ok, i’m ok’.
As far as what other people have said about preaching – and I know people use this as an excuse to Bible-bash, but the apostles preached and people were converted and many missionaries over many years preached and people were converted. The reason that we don’t hear about many conversions via direct evangelism is because of the societies we live in, not because there is something inherently wrong with evangelism. If you go to places where people have not heard of Jesus and you read of the work of missionaries there are plenty of examples of people being converted through evangelism.
I would also like to say that there seems to be a misunderstanding about ’saving souls’. Some people are motivated by selfishness, others by guilt, others by intolerance, but for the others, they are motivated because they believe, not just think, but actually believe that another person is going to suffer terribly – and put yourself in their shoes (just as you want them to put themselves in yours) how would you respond? – And you may say that you wouldn’t keep telling them, but wouldn’t you want to be certain that they knew? However, if you wouldn’t tell them at all because you ‘respect’ their decision, would you say the same about someone walking off a cliff? Just to be clear – because it’s obvious that non-Christians like to jump to conclusions as quickly as Christians – I’m not advocating Bible-bashing or continual preaching.
Since many people react badly to direct evangelism we should look to alternatives but we shouldn’t just dump on evangelists.
Posted by Adrian on January 31, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Add to the last sentence – Because that’s what appears (although I realise that this may just be my perception) to be happening.
Posted by Beverley Pekema on January 31, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Wow, what an excellent Evangelism tool! Thanks and keep up the good work. It keeps the rest of us on our toes.
Posted by Adrian on January 31, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Oh, I should also add that I think what you did was good John. Knowing how non-Christians perceive Christians is healthy and helpful. Thanks.
Posted by Platy on February 1, 2008 at 2:56 am
Wow… that is depressing. So much, I actually felt something pressing against my heart as I read those comments. It hurts to hear how badly some “Christians” act around non-Christians.
I know about those types of people, but I don’t *know* those types of people. They’re not in my circle. It might help that I live in a laid-back country like Australia…
Sure, there are some pushy Christians here – there’d have to be – but I don’t know any of them personally.
Jesus told us to be the light and the salt of the earth. We’re supposed to shine our goodness, from the inside out. And we’re supposed to give a tantalising view of life… Savour in the Saviour.
Thanks for posting those comments, John.
Posted by yaelbatsarah on February 1, 2008 at 3:01 am
Now, now, let’s not get dramatic. I’ve seen you, Yael–and appreciate what you’ve written here. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
Whatever, John, as the conversation heads right back to the same old, same old…looking for new tactics to lure people into the fold….
Posted by Cliverty on February 1, 2008 at 7:59 am
The thing that seems to get missed here is that it is God’s Job to evangelize. “IF I am lifted up I WILL draw all unto Me” John 12:32 and so HE sends The Holy Spirit to “Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John16.
Not too surprising that “the world” doesn’t like it or find it flattering. No question that Christians are not getting a warm fuzzy reception by asking people if they would like a solution to that irritating conviction coming from the Holy Spirit – unless that person is already desperate to solve the problem.
Answers with no questions are seldom appreciated.
Bob
Posted by Cliverty on February 1, 2008 at 8:07 am
More on my post above regarding [b]“solutions given before problem detected”[/b] — in 1Cor 3 Paul says one plants, one waters and another reaps. We can’t go around always thinking we will be “the reaper” in that sequence.
As Second Michele said – we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us into doing the part he dictates for that person at that moment.
But the notion that the unsaved are looking for an “I’m Ok – you’re OK” kind of Christianity is predictable. If they ALREADY had the world view “I’m am not OK I NEED Christianity” they would be pounding on our doors.
Where is the “surprise” in all of this discussion so far?
Bob
Posted by Maria on February 1, 2008 at 8:30 am
yaelbatsarah-
You’re not invisible and I can truly understand what you are saying. As a christian, and if you were my friend, I would not keep chasing after you and trying to change your mind. I would respect that you had been told and did not want to hear it again. I would live my life in a godly way to the best that I am able and maybe that would have an effect on you, but it wouldn’t matter in the end because I’d be doing it for my Saviour. But I would hope that seeing a true difference in me would give you something to think about. And since friends share good news I would tell you when the Lord has blessed me and hopefully that would be more awesome testimonies because truly I have tasted the Lord and seen that He is good!
In other words, having Christ in my life has been a huge change for me in many wonderful ways. I won’t push him on you at all, but I would hope that if you’re around me for any amount of time you will see how happy He has made me and maybe want some of that for yourself. If you do, you’ll ask and we’ll talk about it. If you don’t, then you won’t ask and life will go on.
Posted by modset on February 1, 2008 at 4:27 pm
The true way to witness is to LIVE IT. After all, when the Holy Spirit works, it’s undeniable. Show Love. Actions speak louder than words to the world. I’ve come to find this out first hand.
Posted by Tam on February 1, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Sarah or is it Yeal? My hebrew is laking… Thanks you for your comments to me, I was beginning to feel like I was going unheard (except for the gentleman who, after basically saying that non-believers are only such becuase they haven’t heard it correctly, made sure to tell me he really is tolerant – yeah, right!). I love how you are working on the Christians to get them to understand… and wow on the Jewish converts.
Maria – you have exactly the right idea (at least to me) and you also sound like a wonderful friend. Many of the Christians I know are like you and I so appreciate them.
And please, don’t get me wrong – I am not the type who wants Christianity out of the public eye. In fact, my child goes to a public school and in choir, sings Christian songs. Doesn’t bother me a bit (except when they do them in Latin cuz not understanding the words to a song sucks!) becuase they are just songs… now if someone was to start preaching to him.. I would have an issue. Religeous stuff on public property – fine with me. I just don’t want my child or I to be preached at, or have people attempt to convert me or him.
I think the issue is that there is some arrogance amoung Christians regarding their religion. They are so sure it is the right one, the only one… they are so invested and such firm believers, that many just can’t fathom how someone can know about it, and not become a believer. So they decide it is because the message wasn’t delivered right, the person isn’t informed enough, that the person is living in darkness, or whatever excuse they give… and so try harder.
What they are missing is that many of us our as strong in our faith (or even lack of faith) as they are in theirs. They need to respect the fact we too believe in our faith… doesn;t mean they have to agree, but just accpet out faith is strong and will not change (and attempts tend to be annoying at the least).
Save the converting for those that may be undecided… that are looking for something to truelly believe in… and then use a deft touch.
Posted by Jeremy on February 2, 2008 at 9:52 am
John — Have you ever been to a harvest crusade?
Posted by John Shore on February 2, 2008 at 12:47 pm
No, I’ve never been to a harvest crusade. I was interviewed last year (about my book on this topic, “I’m OK–You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop) on The Harvest Show (for 10 minutes, by a former Miss America named Debra Maffett, now one of the hosts of THS), but … that’s about it, Harvest-wise.
Posted by yaelbatsarah on February 2, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Maria,
Thank you for your kind response. You sound like a nice person who I wouldn’t mind hanging around. In response to your comments:
But I would hope that seeing a true difference in me would give you something to think about.
Well, it might, but not in the way you’re hoping. I would be truly happy for you, but it would be nothing which would interest me personally. But, perhaps hanging out with me would give you something to think about as well?
In other words, having Christ in my life has been a huge change for me in many wonderful ways. I won’t push him on you at all, but I would hope that if you’re around me for any amount of time you will see how happy He has made me and maybe want some of that for yourself. If you do, you’ll ask and we’ll talk about it. If you don’t, then you won’t ask and life will go on.
Nope, but if it makes you a better person, I’m glad for you. People who convert to Judaism will talk about the wonderful changes in their lives; I’ve heard the same from a friend who converted to Islam. Another woman I know says this about her journey into paganism. I see it as change is good, shaking things up, dumping old baggage, exploring new venues, that’s what makes the difference for some people, not the version of God that person takes on. People whose lives are in meaningless ruts respond well to new situations where they have the chance to start out new again. Immigrants forging new lives because they see opportunities the rest of us overlook, that kind of thing….It’s nothing unique to Christianity.
I blog quite a bit. Most of my readers are Christians who, for whatever their reasons, find Jewish views of Torah to be of interest. Whether we agree on anything or not, they treat me and mine with respect which is all I ever ask.
Tam,
Yael is my name. Yael bat Sarah just means Yael, daughter of Sarah.
Well, I hope I didn’t use the term ‘working on’ because that sounds like that friendship evangelism mentality that I detest….These Christians are people with whom I interact just living my life. I openly go along living my life as a liberal religious Jew, where I work such a thing seems to be a novelty so people regularly approach me.
What they are missing is that many of us are as strong in our faith (or even lack of faith) as they are in theirs. They need to respect the fact we too believe in our faith… doesn’t mean they have to agree, but just accept out faith is strong and will not change (and attempts tend to be annoying at the least).
Exactly!
Posted by Christian on February 3, 2008 at 9:26 am
I’ve heard versions of the ’six to one’ theory before. But doesn’t that argument cut both ways? Is it worth turning six people off of the Gospel for the sake of one who might respond to this type of ‘in your face’ technique.
Besides – are we allowing God to work in this situation? How much of other’s ’salvation’ (and I assume we are talking heaven vs. hell here, something that I am not convinced of) is dependent upon what you or I say?
Evangelizing techniques aren’t what’s needed. Let’s lead others by example.
Posted by Skerrib on February 3, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I hadn’t heard the ’six to one’ theory before…or rather, I hadn’t heard it put that way. Interesting.
Something else to consider–someone parroting the ’sinner’s prayer’ might make the witness feel like (s)he ‘won one for the kingdom,’ but it doesn’t really speak to the person’s heart, either. I mean, maybe they meant it, maybe they like the idea of going to heaven instead of hell (which really doesn’t do Christianity justice, in my opinion), or maybe they’re just appeasing the witness so (s)he’ll leave them alone. I mean, in my braver/cheekier moments, I like to mess with people’s heads a little. I’m certain some ‘witnessees’ do the same thing, and i can’t say I blame ‘em, either. I’m just sayin’…
Posted by hughvic on February 3, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Yep, there’s a lot of that kind of triage thinking among the evangelical and missional set. It’s damnable “statistical Christianity”, as Kierkegaard called it to distinguish it from…Christianity. Once you settle into that Rate of Exchange mindset (in the military, a reference to the enemy’s casualties vs. your own), you’re utterly inured to throwing fellow Christians overboard—for example, ridiculing them to curry favor with the unbeliever—to gain a soul for Christ.
You see the fallacy, of course: it’s not for Christ that the soul has been one, because the Spirit is not in it. Our “enemies”, the one’s we are told we will have and must love, but whom we are not told we may choose, are the enemies closest to us: sham Christians, unawares.
Because we are forbidden to judge them, we can only, and must, discern which they are, and then love them. I believe that our preeminent Commission is to evangelize the lost evangelists.
Posted by John Shore on February 3, 2008 at 9:50 pm
If by this “6 to 1″ business we’re suggesting that for every one person we save through cold-call evangelism we alienate six, that’s absurd. If we converted 1 out of every 6 people we tried to, I’d say let’s do it, nonstop, every day, all day. I spent a couple of hours a month or so ago watching a fairly large group of young, earnest, articulate, clean, enthusisatic Christians evangelizing in front of and around a table they set up on the busiest street in downtown San Diego. In the two hours I sat there, I watched hundreds upon hundreds of people walk by these kids. Those kids would have had more luck if they were handing out snails. People just don’t want to talk to people they don’t know about something as personal as religion–and they SURE don’t want to talk about it with someone whom they know is coming into that conversation with an agenda so strong the conversation with them is sure to be nothing resembling a genuine exchange of thought. I just cannot see why/how so many of us can remain so ignorant about the most basic, inviolate truth of human nature. Continuing to act like that ISN’T true is what’s keeping so many people so far away from our churches.
Posted by hughvic on February 4, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Lots of things are keeping people away from our churches. Avoiding the strong meat is one. Pulpit ignorance (especially of the Biblical languages) is another. Fitful steps back onto the bunny slopes of long-abandoned ritual constitute another. This very medium, dominated by the American language and by virulent anti-religious sophomoria, is yet another.
The 6-to-1 critique does not refer to a pollster’s, or to your (105), idea of a reasonable trade-off, because it’s not about bagging one-in-seven call recipients. It’s about hardening six for every one you soften. And it’s centrally about the problem of misguided Christians being happy with that “exchange rate”.
Posted by Maria on February 4, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Yael–I really do believe that friends rub off on each other. So, while I would hope to catch your interest (a girl can hope!), I know that I would learn things from you as well. Sometimes Christians do forget that we can still learn things from others. True Christianity teaches that the Jewish people are God’s chosen people and those who bless them will be blessed while those who curse them will be cursed. That’s why you will find some Christians interested in the background–I do not know about the Torah, but our New Testament seems to pick up where the Torah leaves off.
Anyway, I think you and I have different personal experiences. I can see what you’re saying, but haven’t really known anyone that rejected Jesus in favor of other religions, I’m just not familiar with that. I’m more used to coming across to people who say they believe the Bible is true and that it all happened and then just seem to not do anything about it. I feel like if you believe it then there’s no way you could not act on it. If you don’t believe it, then just say that.
Tam–I think one problem is just what you said. Some Christians think you can’t hear it and not believe it. That’s not correct. I can understand not believing it as we live in a world of “believing is seeing.” I don’t talk about my beliefs to strangers because they’re personal and intimate to me. When I do talk about them I try to explain so that it’s understood. Once it’s understood, it’s up to that person to believe or not. Now, if you believe but don’t act, that’s what I don’t understand.
Posted by Christian on February 4, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Why would I want to ‘harden’ anyone? How do we know we aren’t ‘hardening’ 60 for every one we soften? Where does this idea come from? (Please no proof texting). The entire Gospel would speak against this concept. Jesus’ example does not suggest this.
BTW- I love snails. I am (in)famous for my Chili con Carne Escargot.
Posted by John Shore on February 4, 2008 at 3:23 pm
In the place of snails I originally had the word “turds.”
Posted by hughvic on February 4, 2008 at 4:12 pm
What does an evangelist’s not WANTING to harden anyone have to do with the disturbingly consistent responses John got from non-believers hardened in their views by their run-ins with evangelists?
Posted by hughvic on February 4, 2008 at 4:13 pm
I cannot believe how profoundly unserious you guys are.
Posted by Christian on February 4, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Hughvic -sorry, I think I originally misunderstood your statement about hardening hearts – I ‘think’ we’re on the same page here. Although I try my best to not be too serious.
Posted by hughvic on February 4, 2008 at 6:34 pm
As long as you’re seriously unserious, Christian. Wouldn’t want any unseriously unserious Christians blogging around every street corner. Everything in moderation. I mean, why shouldn’t the God Squad be the Mod Squad? To say nothing of the Devil having all the trix…
And if you have no idea what I just said, then we really do agree.
Except on chili. You can’t even be unserious about “Chili con Carne Escargot”, unless you want to take refuge atop the henhouse and see which sovereign nation declares war first, France or Texas. There’s no such thing as hyphenated chili. There’s no such thing as bad chili, even. It’s either chili or it isn’t.
If it’s “chili”, then nothing then can be said of a thing. People think that Theodore the Great went around saying “Bully!” Far be it from a fine Knickerbocker gentleman such as he to be so confused about the things that make life worth living. No, the truth is that he had been to Texas and had tasted of the dish that maketh the rough places plain and the crooked places straight (to say nothing of taketh off the top of the head), so he fanned out to the Four Corners, proclaiming “Chili!” to all the world, that all flesh might taste it together.
That’s my opinion, anyway, and it’s very true.
Pax Christi
Posted by John Shore on February 4, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Okay, boys, I’m thinking we’ve now wandered far enough off topic….
Posted by hughvic on February 5, 2008 at 6:43 am
Yep, no fair getting all silly on John’s blog. That’s John’s job!
Posted by yaelbatsarah on February 5, 2008 at 8:41 am
Maria,
That’s why you will find some Christians interested in the background–I do not know about the Torah, but our New Testament seems to pick up where the Torah leaves off.
Since I’m a Jew and not a Christian I have a different take on this in that Torah has never left off but is still alive and meaningful to this day. However, I understand what you’re saying here. From your side of the great divide this is how your text is viewed. One man with whom I blog regularly has come to a deeper appreciation of your texts as a result of what he has learned from Judaism. I find that somewhat amusing and ironic, but also gratifying. I’m not out to convert anyone. If someone is able to take from me things that help them make a better connection to the holy in their own lives, I think I’ve done a good thing.
You might find it interesting that some months back a pastor and I started blogging together. We do learn much from each other. We started out a bit dicey, but I find it a worthwhile endeavor seeking to speak in ways that are meaningful to each of us across that great divide. The nice thing with blogging together is that we make the effort to find common ground without blurring it all together and without tearing each other apart. He’s still a pastor and I’m still a Jew who will never step foot inside his church, but I think we help each other learn more and be more, each within our own traditions. And perhaps that is a rare thing in this world, from both of our sides.
Posted by hughvic on February 5, 2008 at 11:13 am
Yael, I’m abashed by Christian evangelists who don’t realize that as a Jew you already are with G-d, and don’t need a Christian ticket to go that Way. So, my apologies.
Posted by yaelbatsarah on February 5, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Hughvic,
Thanks. Yours is the understanding expressed by Franz Rosenweig “We agree on what Christ and his Church mean in the world: no-one comes to the Father but through him (Jn 14:6). No one comes to the Father – but it is different when somebody does not have to come to the Father because he is already with him.”
Posted by Christian on February 6, 2008 at 8:47 am
hughvic – we do agree mightily upon the subject of chili. But…I once had a pot cooking over a fire pit and accidentlally spilled it upon the wet grass. Nobody was around at the time so I scooped it back into the pot. Apparently I also scooped up dozens of tiny black grass snails (it was dusk at the time). My friends all loved the chili, especially those neat little crunchy things. Chef’s secret.
Sorry,John.
Posted by John Shore on February 6, 2008 at 9:06 am
Do NOT make me come back there…
Posted by The Secretary on February 14, 2008 at 12:02 am
[...] February 14, 2008 · No Comments What non-Christians Want Christians to Hear [...]
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 12:35 pm
why is only one religion right? Why cant god exsist in different forms?
I’m not christian. I grew up in a christian household- that was very happy and good up until 10 or 11 grade of high school. No my family werent active church goers. My father is a very bad catholic. I’m sure they would disown him for his deeds. My mother is the nicest woman in the world who believes in god, and believes she can hear him just fine at home.
My grandparents used to take my brother and I to church whenever we were at their house. They were under the impression that we were missing something very valuable in our lives. ( Which I personally think is an insult to my parents)
I dont get along with my grandfather. He tells me every time I visit that I’m going to hell and so are my parents because I dont go to church. It has only worsened since he found out I am not christian. Lately my grandmother has started the same thing. As has my other grandmother.
both grandmothers believe I’m going to hell. One because I see good in people with out believing in christ? And the other because I’m not christian and she thinks I’m a devil worshipper. Because I’m in an evil religion.
My mother- who used to have the same opinion, has recently begun to change her mind since I have begun to really explain what I believe. I respect the fact that we are closer, nicer, and more understanding to each other now that she has become more tolerant.
I generally dont talk about religion, abortion, or any other controversial topic because all I seem to hear are how I’m wrong and other’s are right. That was not what I was talk about christianity, or the world.
I have a friend that a rarely speak to because of religion. Everytime we talk she brings it up. And each time I get this indirect feeling that she thinks I’m evil. the recent thing, was her comment – “So you do believe in something.” Which just told me that she’s never really listened to my opinion. I have always believed in something. What the something is is entirely different.
I was also harassed by a christian in high school. She came to my table and wanted to talk to my and my friends. I have no problem with that. I’m pretty friendly and usually give people chances. She proceeded to tell me and my friend that this wasnt going to be a religious conversion. She just wanted to get to know us. I told her if it turned out to be a religious conversion, we would have to ask her to go away because we did not want to ruin our lunch by bringing up religion.
Needless to say she started talking about christ. We made the mistake of telling her we werent christian. My friend was agnostic, and I was wiccan at the time. She asked our beliefs. I started to tell her, but she interupted me, told me that god loved me, but I was going to hell because I worshipped the devil. She rounded on my friend and told him he was worse off then I was because he was the devil.
I explained to her, that she should just get up and walk away right now because she had lied to us and we werent trying to be mean- but this was not a conversation we wanted to be in. She said she understood but continued to sit there and bad mouth our religions.
I warned her once more that she should leave because I was going to walk over to the administrater and inform him of her harassment if she didnt. She left after informing us we would talk later. She harassed me every chance she got for the rest of the year. Because I think she truly felt we were friends. It finally stopped when I told her one day at the begining of my senior year that if she came near me one more time I would curse her family, sacrifice her dead body to satan and perform orgies in her blood in a ritual for satan to come to earth.
my brother is christian and I like his church. They are the nicest people in the world. And I’ve gotten to know some of them. the pastor’s sermons are easy to follow and no one has said anything about my religion. In fact they have asked me to continue coming back. Almost makes me want to.
I have nothing against most christians. my attitude toward them is if you leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone. I dont care what/ who or how you believe in something. I’m happy you believe, and you should be happy for me. My favorite movie is Dogma. Granted is a weird way to represent christianity, but I like the messages. I dont have a problem with religions. And honestly I like hearing about them. I just dont like being told I’m a devilworshipping whore that’s going to hell. I cant tell you what to believe, and I cant tell you if any of it’s true. But I think it’s more important to have faith, then what you have faith in. And I’m not saying that christians are evil- but no other religion gets in my face over faith. I dont have jews coming to my door. I dont have muslims calling me, or harassing me at school. Seems to me christians are the only ones who dont tolerate others. Every other religion seems to be cool that you at least believe.
but this is my opinion, and I’m sorry that some of you are tainted by others. I have my own issues with the bible, and I find it as easy to believe in vampires and werewolves as I do god of any kind. Because I dont personally know.
Posted by John Shore on April 1, 2008 at 12:40 pm
This is nice. You seem like a really sweet person. I’ve really been enjoying all your comments on different posts of mine. Thank you so much for them.
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 12:49 pm
you’re welcome. glad to know some people like it when I talk. lol
Posted by John Shore on April 1, 2008 at 12:54 pm
How old are you?
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 1:06 pm
19. I’m in my second year of college, and graduated high school last year. it’s cool. lol
Posted by Christian on April 1, 2008 at 4:41 pm
alrwynn – you sound pretty cool. My son dabbles a bit in wicca, along with Zen and a couple of other things including Christianity. When his parents (us) converted to Christianity about 5 years ago we were a lot like your grandparents. This was real tough on my son, who had lots of friend who were ‘pagans’ and he wasn’t ready to condemn them to hell just because our pastor said so. Turns out he was a lot smarter than us, and a lot more compassionate. Thank God we aren’t still in that scene and I thank my son for sticking to his convictions.
I can’t tell from your writing if you are a man or a woman, but that’s probably a pretty good thing. My daughter is 19 and my son is 21 and even though I teach at a high school I realize that there is a gulf between the generations.I don’t want to make too many assumptions.
Would you (and John) mind if I share your comments on my blog? I feel that what you have said might make a lot of people think twice before they judge those who believe differently than they do.
Posted by arlywn on April 1, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I dont mind if you use my comments. Thank you for asking. I’m female actually. And its sad but I really do think most people are okay with differences in religion. Not agreeable about it, but agreeing to disagree at least. My boyfriend, or ex currently, is a satanist- and I think one of the first things I ever asked him was “do you know you’re going to hell?” He was the one that got me to thinking that maybe ‘hell’ isnt as bad as people say. That maybe its only a ruse to control people. Like parents do to make sure their children do as they’re told.
He also got me to see that not all religions are bad. I thought satanism was bad, but wiccan is evil to other religions. Its how you use the religion that’s important. If it harms others, then it isnt that good. But it’s also how it affects you.
I always thought the ten commandments werent that far off to begin with, since most of them are laws.
Posted by Zach on April 5, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Billy
I read your link on martyrdom. For the most part it looks as though people are just getting arrested for proselytizing where they are not supposed to. The violence seems to be typically started by other religious extremists. I can’t count the amount of time Christians have done violence to others for doing something that they disapprove of. Also I don’t think a story entitled “Elephants trample believer’s homes” counts as persecution.
I also think you made a perfect illustration as to why people are so turned off by Christianity. “to hear how former no-believers came to Christ because someone did witness to them and they were confronted with their sin nature” It’s this view of all non believers “with their sin nature” that causes you to look down on them. Most, if not all, non believers as you call them, anyone who isn’t of your religion, have their own set of morals that works perfectly fine.
You assume that anyone who does not believe in your god is living in sin. From Greta’s post, “How sad that their cage has been rattled! Light has always disturbed Darkness. Right has always confronted Wrong. Justice has always confronted Injustice. Love has always confronted Hatred.” While you say your religion stands for light, right, justice, and love. Anyone who is not part of your religion therefore stands for darkness, wrongness, injustice, and hatred.
It’s this “us and them” mentality that causes people to hate one another. And more importantly it is the “we are better than them” mentality that allows you look down on nonbelievers as if they were human garbage, worthy only of your scorn and derision.
As I am sure that all non believers would agree we do not stand for darkness, wrongness, injustice, and hatred. I am willing to guess your views on the world are not based on firsthand experience. And as your quote sounds like something you would hear in church or read in a religious tract. I can only assume that this view stems from what your religion has told you about the rest of us.
I would also guess that you treat your (probably exclusively Christian) friends and acquaintances with respect. And that your behavior towards them is only based on how they have behaved towards you. Logically this would mean that your negative views of a particular group of people are caused only by your own religious convictions. And if you did you have your religious convictions then your negative attitude towards outsiders would also disappear.
This means that without your religion you might actually be a nicer person to be around and that you would feel more “compassion and love in your heart” for others as well.
This is what puts a lot of people off about your religion.
Posted by joeseeker on April 7, 2008 at 1:36 am
John, just discovered your blog. I like what you say and quote in this post. How ironic that so many of the comments do just what we non-Christians are put off by. Some people never learn.
Posted by SLG on April 27, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Arlywn- You asked the question in an earlier post, “Why is only one religion right? Why can’t God exist in different forms?”
I do not condemn non-believers; I fervently believe in God’s Word: “Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” (John 13:34); however, I am strong in my Christian faith and believe there is one way and only one way because that’s what Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6. People cannot take the parts of the Bible they like and ignore other parts (general statement-not directed towards you).
It is a strong conviction that we Christians have that Jesus is the only way to God. That being said, sometimes we can’t help but to share our faith to proclaim what we believe to be as Truth. I’m sincerely sorry that Christians in your life have been preachy and turned you away from the faith. I believe there are ways to share my faith without imposing on non-believers.
I guess I have a question for you…if you were going to base your life on any one thing, wouldn’t you choose something you believed was above all else Truth? I have confidence in an all-mighty, all-powerful God of the universe- who Himself says he is the ONLY God of the universe. So, I guess to answer your question, Christianity is completely based on the truths of God’s Word; He himself states there is only one way to Him, and that’s through His Son Jesus. This may sound exclusive, but I’d rather worship a God who says He’s the end all, be all rather than a wishy-washy god who says anything goes. That’s just me.
With deepest respect…
Posted by Valerie Wall on May 2, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Hi John my name is valerie, and I guess since i havent read your book but today I just discovered your blog and read alot of it, and I just wanted to say as a Christian, I’m guilty of so much of what has been said and I’m so sorry and I want to to what is right in the sight of God Almighty, Jesus has been so very good to me, for example back in the early 1990’s, I was in the hospital and had been diagnosed with esphogalical-varacies, I probably didn’t spell that right, it’s like vericose veins in your throat, to make a long story short , they told that with in two years, I’d be dead with out a liver transplant, One of my very dear friends, came with two elder men of her church, as I wasn’t attending church at that time, they all three laid hands on me and began speaking in tongues, and I felt this warm sensation from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, and I was instantly healed. I told the doctor I was healed, and he told me no way as the only way, was with a liver transplant. They took tests and to there amazement my liver functions were normal, until this very day my liver is 100% healed, I guess what I’m trying to say is that the truth about Jesus, in the old testament in Isiah 53-5-6 , and is backed up in the new testament in 1 peter 2-24, in Isaiah 53-5, before christ came kjv, But he was wounded for our transgressions,he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. Then after the death and reseruction of christ in 1peter 2-24, the bible says:
who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, thet we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. I’m a living example of the unmerited favor grace and mercy of jesus christ , I don’t want you or anyone else to think I’m holier than thou, because I’m not, I’m a sinner saved by grace. I’m not in church on a regular basis right now as we’ve moved, and I don’t like it at all, when we were in church every sunday Me and my husband were in the prayer room, We were greeters and I took care of the bed babies, and we were also ushers, the most gratifying thing was the prayer room and watching the prayers of people being answered through jesus as our mediator to God the father, as Jesus sits on the right hand of the father and intercedes for us to the father as our prayers go up before the altar of Almighty God. This is just one example of the help Jesus has given unto me believe me they are endless. As I truly don’t know what people who don’t believe in God what do they do when a crisis comes, myself I know I truly would be dead without the intervention of God the father , God the Son{jesus] and God the Holy Spirit. I know to people who don’t know jesus , this all sounds like hog wash, but if I can just help one person to believe that what jesus has done for me, and they come tho Jesus it’s worth every second it took for me to type this. As I said I don’t want anyone to think I’m any better than anyone else because I’m not, God loves each and everyone of us equally, I believe that means even people who have not yet come to know jesus, I certianaly don’t judge anyone Period, as it has been stated throughout several other peoples testimonies , that for the same measure you judge it will be measured back unto you, and I do believe that as Christians we get way to judgemental, we are to love each other , as we are all of his children. He don’t love one more than the other, it states in the Bible that he wishes not one would perish, that his people perish for lack of knowledge,and he created each and everyone of us individually, as we all have diffrent finger prints, no one else in the world matches ours, that’s why we were all uniquely, and wonderfully made. What one person can do I certianaly can’t do as we are all gifted with diffrent talents. And from the lowest income bracked to the largest it makes no difference to the lord, as in his eyes were all the same. I raise chiahuahua puppies, my husband works as a maintenance man at the school, so we are considered poor in the world’s eyes, but I believe we are rich in the lord’s eyes, he provides daily, new and exciting things for us, so please let’s love each other for the wonderful creature God created us to be, and try to help each other in every way we can, and that to me means helping some one less fortunate than i financially, and to let others know in a kind way of what Jesus has done for me in my life personally, and they to have that same inheritance just as I do, all they have to do is Repeant to Jesus and know you can’t do it on your own, let Jesus be first in your life, and watch the changes that come upon you in every way imagineable.I hope I don’t sound to preachy, I just felt as though I should share just a sample bit of what Jesus has done for me, and believe me, if he can do it for a wretch like me he can certianly do it for you. May God Bless each and every one who read’s this abundantly. I do want to practice what I’m talking about and believe me I fall short in every area, as I said I’m a sinner saved by grace unmerited favor and the mercy of Jesus Christ, and what he did for all of us at the Cross when he was crucified upon the cross for the perfect sacrifice once and for all. So, please everyone just give Jesus a chance and read the Holy Bible it’s the Blue Print for life, I promise you’ll never be sorry, for there are great and mighty things in store for everyone, who searches for the truth, the bible say search and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. God Bless everyone and I hope we can all come together and love one another as God intended, and help each other to discover the wonders of God. Thank You just a concerned person in Texas. Love to all Valerie
so
so
go
Posted by Kat on May 13, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I just recently became a Christian. It took me soooo many years to finally accept Christ, and one of the main reasons why it took me so long were the Christians from my High School. Those kids had their noses up in the air, called me all sorts of foul names behind my back, condemned me without even knowing me, and etc. My mentality back then was, “if those Christians are anything like their Christ, then I don’t want anything to have to do with them.” In them there were no love, no compassion, and no image of Christ for the unsaved. But God loved me too much to give up on me…eventually I met some Christians who walked the talk and invited Christ into my life. Best thing that ever happened! Overall, I think my experience with the Christians from my High School has made me a better Christian–I try to be very sensitive in sharing the gospel, and I try to always react with compassion and love. It’s what Jesus taught me.
Posted by John Shore on May 13, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Kat: Thanks so much for sharing this. Wonderful stuff; it really rings with the truth of your experience. I hope people read it.
Posted by arlywn on May 14, 2008 at 7:00 am
SLG: I’m not saying believe in a god who thinks everything is right. Most religions do think they are the only right way. I also understand why you believe in someone who has faith that they are right. My question, which… not really sure if it made sense, was that if things like math problems can have different answers. Like 1X6=6, but 3X2= 6, why cant christianity be one way, and say…. hinduism be another? Why isnt that the same? Does that make sense?
oh, and my brother showed me a bible verse that I like very well now. Romans 1:1? I think it says that christians should invite people into their homes, not to quarrel over beliefs but to… and I just forgot. I’m looking it up again when I got home, but it was a good point! I swear! lol
Posted by Jesus the Decider: Who Gets Into Heaven? « Suddenly Christian on June 4, 2008 at 7:13 am
[...] a related postof mine, “What Non-Christians Want Christians to Hear,” here. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Why Must Others Be Like [...]
Posted by Mr. “Wasn’t Having Any” Responds to Christians « Suddenly Christian on June 6, 2008 at 9:14 am
[...] heard before. (In fact, what the non-Christians say in John’s excellent blog piece, “What Non-Christians Want Christians to Hear” pretty fully covers it. I think that post should be required reading for all Christians.) [...]
Posted by Sara on June 9, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I heard a very wise man say something that I believe applies here. If you have a thought in your head, you do not think it is wrong. If you are hungry and want a salad, you do not think to yourself, “Boy I bet I am really wrong about wanting a salad, maybe I should check with someone else about this first…”
You eat a salad.
I guess I see this debate the same way. We have thoughts in our heads and do not think they are wrong because they are our thoughts. Why would they be wrong?
I am not saying that the Christian side or the non-Christian side is wrong. I may be a Christian, but I have friends who are not Christians and we get along just fine. I may talk about my beliefs while in their presence, but I do not try to convert them. That is not my job as a Christian. My job is to be Jesus-like. To be an example of what a Christian is and not condemn them for their beliefs – whatever they are. To love them where they are in their lives and to appreciate them for what they can teach me. Every person in this world is my superior in some way, and I can learn – and have learned so much when I remember that fact.
Posted by Whoa there….. « The New Just Rambling on June 11, 2008 at 12:43 pm
[...] non-Christian viewed us when we evangelize. In that post was a reference to another, specifically What Non-Christians Wants Christians to Hear. If you have time, you should check it out. Not that I accept every view shared, but it certainly [...]
Posted by Hugo on June 27, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Wonder how Jon’s mastery of Ancient Hebrew, Koine Greek, Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic, Latin, German and French has been going these days…
Yuk-yuk. Lick the new wrapper! It’s the latest thing, with Xylitol, the Amazing New Sweetener That Everyone’s Talking About!
Posted by Hearts64’s Weblog on August 10, 2008 at 12:36 am
[...] 10, 2008 at 8:36 am (Uncategorized) i found this http://johnshoreland.com/2008/01/30/what-non-christians-want-christians-to-hear/ and after reading the following quotes i felt extremely uptight. not because of what others seem [...]
Posted by Steve on August 15, 2008 at 3:08 pm
John, I actually stumbled across this site because I have tried to witness to a person that I really care about, but she is full of rejection. That type of situation can be hurtful to the Christian as well, when they are rejected. I have read the majority of the responses, but I failed to see many Biblical references to find what God thinks about all of this. Point taken that there are some, but I wanted to point out a couple of things. Without all the references, are we told that we, as Christians, will be persecuted for what we believe. We are told that we should dust off our shoes when we leave a place of closed ears, we are told that if a brother is in sin and we don’t acknowledge it to them then that is on our heads, and even in Ezekiel…God told him specifically that he would be sent to a place where the people may or not listen to what he had to say. God even said he would make him as stubborn as they are and to not be afraid of them. Why did God say this, and why are Christians witnessing with a pure heart viewed by non-Christians the way they are?…I think God made it clear to Ezekiel and thoughout the Bible. They reject you(Christians) because they turn against me(God). Truly, Jesus never hated the person, he despised the sin. Non-Christians don’t hate the Christian, they despise the message.
Posted by skerrib on August 15, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Steve, I think it depends on how you view the rejection and what you do with it. Is she rejecting your message or you as a person?
If she’s rejecting you as a person, then I agree that this might be a situation to dust off your sandals & move on.
If she’s fine with you as a person but rejects God–well, it’s not really about you. In my opinion, if this is the case then you’ve done all that is within your power to share the good news. The only thing to do now is love her for who she is & let God worry about her heart. After knowing where she stands, if you show disrespect by crossing her personal boundaries your well-intentioned efforts will likely be counterproductive.
Posted by amanda williamson on August 25, 2008 at 3:08 pm
i am a chrstian and as for ones who have wriiten about what we need to here as christians. and as for the ones wha have to use ugly words relize that cursing is nothing but, makeing you look ignorant. Meaning you need to learn english. I am 15 years old. Name is Amanda so if u want to write back ignorately but just remeber before u open your mouth and say it make sure u have a reason to back it up because the more u say the more the bible proves you wrong. I was saved at the age of 12 and lived for God every sence and there are times when I come across non-christians everyday at school but i just remeber to keep me in there prayers and yes many of you talk about christians call you bad or evil but christains are trying to prove apoint that u are on your way to hell it is not to say you are a bad person but to say you need to grow up and relize god is bigger than u are just think of the titanic the man at the beginning of the movie the man said “God cant sink this ship” well God put an obstical in the way to prove that he could sink the ship. so an ice berg would be there to prove that God is there. But i I pray for you people daily but remeber. we do good for the work of mean and i can do all things through christ witch strenthens me. and before u open your mouth to prove me wrong. read the bible to find your index and then if u see where it is against what you are saying then u can ask. but.
dear God,
i come to you today in your sweet holy name to lift these up to you that are not capabile. of understanding it for themselves that need help. i pray for there guidance and for you to put a hand on them. and GOd keep me in your prayers as i try to make a point that everything is done through your mercy and power. and any prayer request out there i may not know what they are but just put a hand on them and lead them in there diraetion and give them the strength to know you are the midst and for them to give it to you god. I would like to thank you for another day you have given us and we love you jesus and your father god.in your most precious name.
AMEN.
Posted by Glen on November 27, 2008 at 8:03 pm
All of my closest friends are Protestant Christians. We get along just if we don’t get on the topic of religion. My views come from a secular position, and generally I get a lot of flak. I try to disarm the conversation before it gets started. The only really annoying things for me are the points they bring up related to politics. They don’t actually persecute me too when we debate specific issues of morality like gay marriage. For the most part they respect my opinion on those kinds for issues, but it drives me insane when they say stuff like ‘the nation will go to hell if we vote for Barack Obama, that muslim’.
Posted by John Shore on November 27, 2008 at 10:09 pm
But … how can you be close friends with someone who would say something that mean and stupid?
Posted by Hugo on November 29, 2008 at 5:50 pm
John,
From the foundation, I do apologize to you for being so bitter and petty toward you, all those months ago, on this and other contemporaneous strings of the time. I was wrong.
It’s clear to me now that yours is an authentic, and perhaps unique, vocation, and that you’ve rendered ripened fruit.
I’m sorry.
Sincerely,
Hugo
Posted by Dale on March 24, 2009 at 7:08 am
John,
We definitely have a mountain to climb in shining the Love and Light of Jesus Christ to the world. R.M., from Tacoma, WA hit it right on the head.
Matt 12:34-39
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
The more we love and spend time with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the more the world will see Jesus through us. Love and spend time with Jesus today, Praise and Worship at His feet and be silent. Seek to hear His voice. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of the Word of God to you as you read His word. Then go and let His Light shine mightily through you. Tomorrow and each day going forward do it again, again, and again.
All Praise and Glory to God our Father!!!
Posted by Julia on May 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm
What do non-Christians want Christians to hear?
For them to actually hear us. For them to actually listen to us.
But they do not. They cannot. Their religion puts us in the box labeled “THEY ARE NOT ONE OF US” and thus their hearing goes no further. They no longer hear us. They no longer see us. All they hear are voices of those they believe are lost, never hearing what we are saying to them.
It is hard to be heard when you are put in a box against your will.
We do not need top be put in your box. We are not lost.
We simply walk a different path than you.
Respect our path and we will respect yours. It is that simple.
~Walk in Beauty,
Julia
Posted by MIGUEL on October 21, 2009 at 1:46 pm
READ YOUR BIBLE.HAVE FAITH IN GOD.
Posted by MIGUEL on October 21, 2009 at 1:47 pm
GOD BLESS YOU,READ YOUR BIBLE
Posted by choondooga on November 3, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Every Christian I know has tried to mold me into the perfect little Jesus-lover.
Well, I’m not. I’m a sarcastic, unhappy, person a great deal of the time. And Christians trying to force their religion down my throat doesn’t help my mood at all.
Know when, I’m happiest? When I am doing what I ENJOY: going outside and hiking. Nature is the only god I need. Yes, I’ve dabbled in “dark” things. I’ve read the Koran, I’ve studied Buddha, I’ve talked to witches and I’ve even tried the worshiping of ancient Native American gods.
I don’t like having rules and regulations to make me obey someone or “go to Hell”.
No offense, “MIGUEL”, but you are not helping your case in the slightest.
Have fun preaching at us, Jesus-people. We’ll continue to marvel at your dress code of pantyhose and flowered dresses.
Posted by choondooga on November 3, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Also, Amanda, don’t begin arguing with your amazing knowledge of the English language. That angle isn’t going to work for you. May I suggest the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary for your spelling needs?