My wife Catherine and I used to study and practice Zen. One morning she and I were walking to our car after a night spent with a dozen or so other would-be Buddhas inside a Zen center sitting zazen. (Zazen is Zen meditation: You sit; you close your eyes; you try to disconnect from your thoughts; you try like you wouldn’t believe not to sneeze or cough; you try not to panic about the fact that after about a half hour your whole lower body is so asleep you wouldn’t know if someone harpooned your thigh.) As we were approaching our car, we saw that a guy who had just left a flyer pinned beneath our windshield wipers was now leaving another flyer on the car parked behind ours.
“Hi,” waved Mr. Flyers. “Hope you don’t mind me leaving one of these on your car.”
I unlocked our car’s passenger door so that Catherine could get in. “No problem” I said. But it must have come out, “Please come over and talk to us,” because that’s what the guy did. He was a youngish, fit-seeming fellow sporting an orange baseball cap and a truly winning smile.
“It’s for a nearby church,” he said. “Calvary Chapel. Ever heard of it?”
“I haven’t,” I said. I opened the car door; Cat silently took her seat; I closed her inside. Tucked under my arm was my zafu, the round pillow Zenners use to sit upon whilst trying to merge with The Great Nothing/Everything. The guy nodded toward it.
“You folks study Buddhism there in the center?”
“We do,” I said. “We like Zen. Been at it for a pretty long time now.”
“Oh, is that right? Do you find it helps you with your life?”
A feint little fire alarm bell went off in my head.
I went into Friendly Conversation mode. “Actually, yeah. It’s been a really wonderful thing for both of us.”
“But you must know that it can’t give you what the Lord Jesus Christ can,” said Mr. Orange Cap. My feint fire alarm turned into a clanging that would have sent Smokey the Bear into seizures. “The only way you can ever find what you’re really seeking is to open up your heart to the fact that Jesus Christ is your personal lord and savior.”
The thing about sitting zazen — especially if you’ve just done it for ten hours straight — is that it leaves you feeling like Lake Placid. So in a voice infused with warm calm, I said, “That’s great. I mean, I know that for a lot of people Christianity is perfect. We’ve chosen Zen. I’ve got a friend who’s a Hindu. My wife’s dad is Catholic.” I shrugged, as if to say it’s a big, wide world full of valid options. “I guess everybody has to find their own way, huh?”
“But there’s only one true way, friend,” said the guy. “And that way is through Jesus Christ.”
“Yeah,” I said, walking around the front of our car to the driver’s side. Definitely time to move on. “Christianity’s a really sound option, for sure.”
“It’s more than just an option, guy. It’s the only way. Anyone who doesn’t repent of their sins and declare the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior is lost to the flames of eternal hell.”
I felt gathering in my stomach that tight ball I get whenever I’m wondering just how crazy someone might go on me.
With one hand on my door handle I smiled, and said lightly, “Well, that does sound bad. I hope that doesn’t happen to me!”
“Oh, it will. It happens to everyone who chooses any but the one true way.”
From across the top of my car I spoke to the Christian in the soft, supportive tone I’d use with a friend. “I understand that Christianity works for you, and I think that’s outstanding. Your life must be so rich because of your faith. But must Christianity be the only way? Can’t there be other good ways for people to know and experience what you call God? Does everyone who chooses any other way but Christianity have to be wrong?”
Even while saying it, I knew I was driving straight off a cliff.
“Hey, I don’t make the rules,” the guy answered. “You can fight against it all you want, but the fact is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. The cost of not accepting him as your savior is the eternal damnation of your soul.”
Through the windshield I saw Catherine making her “I’m totally expressionless, yet wondering if I’m going to have to kill someone” face.
I pulled open my car door. “Well, I guess I’ll just have to hope that you’re mistaken.”
“Oh, I’m not, buddy. But you are. Both you and your wife are condemning yourselves in the eyes of the Lord by engaging in the sinful idolatry of Zen.” He spat out the last word like it was something foul in his mouth.
Climbing into my car I executed a friendly little wave, and said, “All right; I’ll bear that in mind. There aren’t actually any idols in Zen, but I see what you’re saying. Thanks for sharing it. Have a good day.”
As I closed my door the guy moved around to the front of our car. “Stop what you’re doing!” he called. “Let the Lord into your heart! You please the devil with your sinful ways!”
“Jesus,” murmured Catherine.
“Or one of his ambassadors, anyway,” I said, starting the car. “I wonder if I’m gonna have to run this guy over?”
“You’re lost!” said the guy loudly. He demonstrated that he hadn’t lost all touch with reality by stepping safely back onto the curb.
“Repent!” he said. “Accept the Lord! Turn your back on the devil! Rid yourself of your sin!”
With a resigned smile on my face, I gently waved to the guy as we pulled out into the street and drove away.
“Well,” said Catherine, “that was pleasant.”
“Can you imagine being God,” I said, “and looking down, and seeing that? I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees stuff like that?”
“‘Maybe I should become a Buddhist’” ? said The Funniest Woman Ever. “‘I need to get some new salespeople? People who aren’t totally rude and intrusive? People who don’t think the way to attract people to me is to scream insults at them?”
“Right,” I said. “Either that, or he’d just go, “‘That’s it. I give up. Time for the apocalypse.’”
That our Christian friend in the orange cap meant well isn’t in question. Of course he only wanted what was best for Catherine and me. But he failed to interest us in Christianity because his evangelizing effort was grounded in what all such efforts are necessarily grounded in: A lack of respect on the part of the evangelizer. He didn’t respect us, or our belief system.
By disrespecting us, the evangelizer proved to my wife and me that he did not love us, because love without respect is no love at all. And by not loving us, that brother was breaking what Jesus himself called the greatest law of all: To love your neighbor as you love yourself.
I’m a Christian, and proud of it. But unless I’m missing something so huge it’d be like a car parked in my living room, that Christian was violating Christ’s most important and explict directive to all Christians. I’d like that not to be true, but I just can’t see how it isn’t.
Posted by Leif Sr. on February 1, 2008 at 4:20 pm
You didn’t miss a thing.
Oh, and that’s not a car it’s an elephant in your living room.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Leif: Thank you. THANK YOU.
Posted by C.L. Mareydt on February 1, 2008 at 4:37 pm
… i guess it all boils down to one finite point …
we all have to start somewhere.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 4:59 pm
CL: Not sure what you mean.
Posted by Shell on February 1, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I struggle with this issue. Jesus could be pretty in-your-face annoying too–at least he came across that way to many people. Isn’t that why they killed him? Of course, he WAS God, as opposed to, well, me.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Shell: That is the exact, perfect point. GOD telling you what you should do with your heart is one thing. Another person–much less someone you don’t know–telling you the same thing is a whooooole other can of Back Off.
Posted by Shell on February 1, 2008 at 5:17 pm
One of my life goals is to not be annoying, so I’d make a terrible evangelist of the kind you’re describing. But I sometimes wonder if I’m just a coward. The disciples annoyed people to the point of being murdered. Or am I oversimplifying? (By the way, I live in a country that’s only about 1% Christian, so would that change things? Would that tip the scales to my being a coward rather than a respecter of differences?)
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 5:30 pm
But Christs’ disciples HAD to pretty aggressively evangelize AT THAT TIME, because they knew that if they didn’t Christianity just might not survive. That’s hardly true today: Safe to say that today, in America, anyone who WANTS to know about Christ has infinite ways to do so, ASAP. As to your foreign question, my answer is only this: It doesn’t do any good to try to talk to a STRANGER about what they should or shouldn’t believe in anyway: they’re bound to just think you’re obnoxious, and walk away from you. What you CAN do–and what you would do naturally, anyway–is share with your FRIENDS whatever you believe. That’s natural and wholesome, and zero stress. That’s what friends do in the natural course of their relationship anyway. So you’ve got no worries, anywhere.
Posted by Greta Sheppard on February 1, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Mr. Orange Cap was sorely misled by those who discipled him.
He is fortunate you were the gentleman you are, John!
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Thank you, Greta. And yes, I do believe that, as you say, Mr. Orange Cap was misled. But he’s hardly alone. I have a million other stories basically just like this one. All non-Christians do.
Posted by Skerrib on February 1, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Fantastic example. It’s an interesting progression, from friendly “how are ya” type of talk to “you will burn in hell.” My current primary theory is that we’re all giant three-year-olds…so this guy didn’t get the response he wanted and threw a Christianese temper tantrum. He could’ve used a time out!
Posted by Morse on February 1, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I always wondered what evangelists like that think they’ll accomplish when what they’re saying essentially amounts to a threat.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 6:45 pm
While it certainly hasn’t been my experience that all evangelizing Christians behave like this guy, it’s certainly not been a rarity in my life. This is pretty typical–or it is, at least, with people who subscribe to that whole Ray Comfort, Way of the Master type of … extremely unpleasant interacting. You know how it is: Start out nice, and then slip right into the condemning judgement. Typical. Sad. Common. Needs to stop. Won’t, of course.
Posted by Catherine Howell on February 1, 2008 at 6:53 pm
WOW! You received a large dose. A little humility of the sincerely zealous evangelist would have gone a long way…Bless his heart!
This is a funny and sad story at the same time.
Posted by Todd on February 1, 2008 at 7:48 pm
“But Christs’ disciples HAD to pretty aggressively evangelize AT THAT TIME, because they knew that if they didn’t Christianity just might not survive”
Christianity has never been in a position of failing or not surviving. God is sovereign. His purposes will not fail. This is also the issue that your not-so-friendly evangelical had. Not believing that God is sovereign. Not knowing that God’s purposes, including the salvation of His people, will not fail. It is sad. But I also don’t think it was necessarily a lack of love he exhibited. If my daughter was going to run into the road and get hit by a truck – I would do everything including being rude, crude, and slightly obscene if it would stop her. I might holler a “threat” like “If you don’t turn from the direction your heading you are going to die!” She might think that I am simply mean, don’t really love her, and want to thwart her freedom. It might not be the right thing (to her)- or the seemingly loving thing – but if it is all I knew to do I would try it to stop her from dying. Maybe that young evangelical really did love you. Probably not. But maybe.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Please see an older post of mine on this very subject here:
http://johnshore.wordpress.com/2007/05/30/adults-arent-children-and-none-of-us-is-god/
Posted by dsrtrosy on February 1, 2008 at 8:20 pm
If it was your daughter, the “threat” would have a completely different backgrounding. You can’t believe a complete stranger would become upset in the same way, no matter how much love they had in their hearts, if they saw YOUR daughter run out in the road.
I keep coming back to what Jesus actually did one-on-one with real people. He drank with them, talked to them at local hangouts, healed them in public places, fed them. He met their actual immediate and personal needs. Then he had an opening for going beyond those needs to the deeper spiritual issues. He wasn’t waving a scroll in someone’s face screaming “Turn or burn!” And the people he “irritated” were the people of his OWN religion. Hmmm. Food for thought.
Posted by Pastor David on February 1, 2008 at 8:43 pm
800 poung gorilla in the living room. “Get your hands off my throat while you tell me about, what was it again?”
Posted by Tam on February 1, 2008 at 10:02 pm
John – I get what you are saying about friends vs. strangers. However, I do know if any of my friends started trying to actively converting me… they would soon be ex-friends. There is a line between discussing your faith and trying to push it.
I don’t mind people discussing their faith (as long as they have other things to also say… someone who can only talk faith tends to bore me), I don’t mind them discussing their experiences, and I love to discuss the history of Christianity… However, I do get annoyed at the conversion attempts… even from friends.
Posted by Jeff on February 1, 2008 at 10:15 pm
I’ve never felt good about the in-your-face approach, and I’ve always cringed when I saw someone else doing it–or if they wanted ME to do it.
Once I saw a guy outside a restaurant, clutching a Bible and literally pointing his finger in the face of another, very uncomfortable-looking man as he spoke intently to him. I wanted to go up to them and apologize to the uncomfortable-looking guy for the way the first guy was misrepresenting Jesus.
The only thing that grieved me more was when I shared this story a few days later during dinner at someone’s house, and a pastor who was there actually *defended* this man’s actions and berated me for thinking it wasn’t appropriate.
Posted by Tam on February 1, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Ya know, the “in-your-face” types are causing a lot of backlash at Christianity in general. While I have no issues with Chrsitianity in public places (as I mentioned earlier, I am fine with my son learning Christian songs in school or public dispalys of Christianity), I know quite a few people who do have issues… and it all seems to stem from experience with the “in-your-face” converting type.
They are afraid that any Christianity in pubic places will lead to more of the converting. They see the lack of respect and tolerance shown by some Christians and fear giving them a foot hold, especially when it comes to our children.
Posted by John Shore on February 1, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Tam: I just meant friends share everything–or at least the important stuff–with their friends. I didn’t say–or mean, anyway–anything about friends converting friends. Of course that’s offensive. Pretty much my whole point.
Jeff: Tough story! REALLY tough on that defending pastor. Ridiculous.
Posted by Andy Christensen on February 2, 2008 at 3:18 am
It doesn’t seem that the young man was familiar with the Word or that he was being guided by the Spirit. You were being more Christ-like than he was. And you had many such encounters? Ouch. Praise God for His love and grace, which is so awesome that not even those misguided messengers could obscure it from your view.
I was born to Christian parents. By about age 10 or 11 I believed in God and believed I was going to heaven because of that. I had a vague idea that Jesus’ death on the cross was important. One Sunday, a Sunday school worker, probably about high school age, stopped me as I was about to leave and talked to me. I don’t remember much except the gist of it was, do you believe in God? Okay, well, do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Do you realize that you’re not going to heaven, that you will go to hell, unless you believe He died for you and you ask God for forgiveness? That was my first real lesson in the spiritual facts of life, it kind of took me aback. I stammered some response and got away. I was the beginning of some real doubts about what I believed, a struggle and a debate within myself. Maybe because I am a very analytical person, when some question like that arises, I have to resolve it. Within the next year or two my mind was made up for Christ. A lot of wonderful Christian people, foremost my parents, plus others in the church, helped in many ways to guide me to that decision. I wonder what would have happened if that somewhat nervous young lady, who could have very easily just let me go on out the door, hadn’t taken it upon herself to tell me the truth in love.
I have sometimes wondered what would have happened if I hadn’t grown up in a Christian family, and all I knew about Christianity was what I got from TV and movies, and some arrogant Christian had gotten in my face like happened to you. I may have decided I wanted nothing to do with Christianity.
We are not here just to hang around until we die and go to heaven. We are here to make a difference for Jesus. It is important that we have a heart for the spiritual and material needs around us. It is important that we do it not any old way we feel like doing it, but that we do it the way God wants it done. The only things we have to do are the things the Word commands. The only things we must not do are the things the Word forbids. Beyond that we should rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Posted by Sam Burton on February 2, 2008 at 4:11 am
I have an orange cap. It says “Remington” on it. Deer fear it. Actually, not so much. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with a .30-06. Deer mostly walk up and taunt me because I’m more of a cartoon than a hunter.
Many very well meaning Christians, and I’ve been one, have turned the Great Commission into a cartoon. And a not very funny one, at that. Evangelism is essential. The way we do it changes with time, culture and circumstances. I’m quite certain I’ve embarrassed Jesus from time to time. But only when I’m awake.
One thing I enjoy about this debate is that there are so many Believers who still want to see multitudes come to Christ even though we rarely agree on methods. Thanks, John, for always making us think. And chuckle. And get really annoyed. And….Oh, gotta go. I see a big buck. “Honey, where’s my cap?”
Posted by cwalker21 on February 2, 2008 at 9:20 am
I am a cross carrier for Christ. Going into different cities in my community walking with this cross has been an experience that is hard to convey in words. It is the only place in the earth that allows me to completely focus on Christ and surrender my will totally to him being dependent on him for everything. The Lord has taught me many valuable lessons on these walks the first and foremost one is to always respect the people who see me and to always prefer the drivers ect..over myself (give them the right of way) praying for both their and my safety and for their hearts to be touched. He has also instructed me to never approach someone, if they approach me I am praying he gives me the right words to speak to them. The fact is Jesus commanded all Christians to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. How he leads someone to do this is his business, however if it is out of line with his will and charcater he will correct them if they are being open. If we suffer with him we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us 2 Tim. 2:12
Posted by Jeannie Campbell on February 2, 2008 at 10:43 am
You get so much further in life as a witness and evangelizer if you do respect the belief systems you encounter. I won’t say that I haven’t sat there and listened to someone describe what they believe and had the same alarm bells ringing in my head that you had with Mr. Orange Cap. There is something scary about hearing someone profess a belief that will ultimately land them in Hell. But the key is definitely to listen, not just feign interest and nod in the appropriate places. People are relational, and gaining access to describe YOUR beliefs will come much more readily when you allow the other person to go first and demonstrate a real interest in what they are saying. Then turn about is fair play, and most people will feel obligated then to listen to your on your “turn” in this comic “game” where the winner gets more than the last say. I appreciated this reminder of how Christians, meaning the absolute best, can shoot ourselves in the foot. Wasn’t is Ghandi who said, “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians.” (?) Here is a good reason why that might have been the case for him.
Posted by Skerrib on February 2, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I think Christians have a way of using God to rationalize saying and doing things that, when said & done in any other situation, would be considered incredibly rude & inconsiderate. It’s hard to argue with “I’m just doing what God told me to do.”
Our ‘concern’ for non-believing folks sounds nice, but is misguided…I think a lot of times it’s our pride masquerading as concern.
Posted by John Shore on February 2, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Skerrib: I agree with you 100%. It’s soooo much easier, and so very much more gratifying to one’s ego, to tell people why they’re wrong and bound for hell than it is to love them. Telling you why you’re wrong–which is to say, telling you why I’M right–is so much more engaging to me than is loving you. The former is about me, which fascinates me. The latter is about you, which is a lot less interesting to me. In what they decided to call The Great Commission (a term which, unlike “The Great Commandment,” Christ never used at all), Christians found the ultimate way to disguise a superbly effective means of ego gratification as concern for others.
That said, I know evangelizing Christians mean well. And I certainly think that we all must share knowledge of Christ with people who’ve never heard about the Gospel or Jesus. But today, in America, when you go up to someone you don’t or barely know, and you start “witnessing” to them, you’re doing something that has a great deal less to do with “saving” the other person than it does with working out personal issues of your own. What you’re doing is about anger, not love. And the proof of that–well, one proof of that–is that that kind of evangelizing NEVER WORKS. So you can’t be doing it to glorify God, because … it doesn’t work. It’s not glorifying God. It’s repelling people from God. It’s failing God, because it’s failing the Great Commandment.
Posted by cipher on February 2, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Hi John,
This is my first time here; I came via a link on another blog. I’ve read a few of your posts.
I’d suggest that the man who accosted you wasn’t attempting to convince you as much as he was trying to convince himself. One of the early 20th century British authors said, “The missionary impulse is the outward manifestation of an insecure faith.” If he can convince you that he’s right, he can stave off for a while longer the ever-present doubt that threatens to overtake him.
Or, he was simply unbalanced!
I’d like to ask a question. You told this fellow, “I understand that Christianity works for you, and I think that’s outstanding. Your life must be so rich because of your faith. But must Christianity be the only way? Can’t there be other good ways for people to know and experience what you call God? Does everyone who chooses any other way but Christianity have to be wrong?”
However, I also read your post, The Happiest Ending EVER”. To one of the commenters, who asked, “Why do I need Jesus?” you replied, “You’re born human. That means you’re extremely inclined to be selfish, greedy, snarky, gossipy, lazy, impatient, mean-spirited, ego-driven, etc., etc. You’re just born to … self-promote, shall we say. It’s not all you’re born to be: you’re also born to be virtuous and kind and loving and so on.” You then went on to say that there is no way in which we can overcome these tendencies without God, and it seems to me that you were implying that necessarily meant Jesus. Or did I misunderstand you?
I find it interesting that you’re practicing Buddhism (although I realize, of course, that Zen is presented in the West as method, largely). Buddhism presents itself as a tool for personal transformation, but it doesn’t acknowledge a creator. Do you not feel that Buddhism can help one to overcome one’s innate selfish tendencies – or do you believe that it can, but not as completely as Christianity?
I’d also like to offer an observation. What I seem to be hearing from most of the Christians who comment on your blog is that they have no problem with the message – Jesus died for your sins, if you don’t believe that you’ll go to hell – they’re just offended by the aggressive tactics like those of the man in your article. It’s all right to believe that people who disagree with you will burn forever in a lake of fire – it just isn’t polite to make a lot of noise about it! Given that kind of belief, it makes the behavior of your orange-capped friend much more understandable.
I also read the reviews of your book on Amazon. If conservative evangelicals are accusing you of heresy – you must be doing something right!
Posted by ann on February 2, 2008 at 3:57 pm
poor Orange Cap. Somebody taught him that that was a true Christian act. I’m Catholic and worked at a firm owned by an Evangelist Christian for years. He was an okay guy, but he allowed the dissemination of ‘the Way’ during business hours. My coworkers decided to convert me. I was told repeatedly that I worship the pope. That I worship Mary. I was given pamphlets that proved that the pope is the anti-Christ and I have been assured, most enthusiastically, that Catholicism is NOT Christianity and that I will burn in the fires of hell.
Needless to say I avoided my fellow Christians as much as possible. How sad is that?
Posted by Brian Shields on February 2, 2008 at 5:13 pm
I get a perverse pleasure out of talking people like that in circles. It’s usually not very difficult.
Posted by John Shore on February 2, 2008 at 5:30 pm
No. But like all things that aren’t difficult to do, after two minutes it’s ALWAYS boring.
Posted by John Shore on February 2, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Ann: What a story. Painful. AWFUL! And so terribly, terribly common. Man. That hurts. “Sad” barely begins to describe it. Yet does, perfectly.
Posted by John Shore on February 2, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Cipher: Beautiful, deep comment: Thanks for it. Let me try pretty quickly to address your questions with what I’m sure will be inadequate responses:
I do think any person needs outside help to better the worst of his nature. And by outside, I do indeed mean God. I personally happen to think that, of all the interpretations and understandings of God out there, the Christian belief system is (in a word) the best one.
I don’t practice Buddhism anymore. But I easily agree with your statement, “Buddhism can help one to overcome one’s innate selfish tendencies.” I know that to be true. And yes, I also feel that, all things being equal, it cannot do so as completely or readily as Christianity can.
A lot of Christians don’t believe hell is literal; they understand it as a metaphor for existing outside the presence of God. A LOT of Christians.
Actually (as far as I know) conservative evangelicals AREN’T accusing me of heresy. Those four or five recent, negative reviews about I’m OK are from this little cabal of people who all know each other, and saw in persecuting my book nothing more interesting than a chance to bring some attention to their little business, which is selling coffee cups and mugs and T-shirts adorned with slogans all about how sinners go to hell — “Get Saved or Burn Forever,” and all that sort of thing. On coffee cups. And T-shirts. And trucker caps.
Posted by Michelle on February 2, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Wow, this has been insightful. I’ve been “evangelizing” since 1st grade – 40 years later I hope I’ve learned some things. Doesn’t grace cover it all? I sure am hoping so! (not wishful thinking but the firm conviction type of hope)
Posted by cipher on February 2, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Actually (as far as I know) conservative evangelicals AREN’T accusing me of heresy.
Oh. That’s kind of too bad, actually. That impressed me!
Those four or five recent, negative reviews about I’m OK are from this little cabal of people who all know each other, and saw in persecuting my book nothing more interesting than a chance to bring some attention to their little business, which is selling coffee cups and mugs and T-shirts adorned with slogans all about how sinners go to hell — “Get Saved or Burn Forever,” and all that sort of thing. On coffee cups. And T-shirts. And trucker caps.
I saw that one of them, a young woman, works for Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron (don’t even get me started). I didn’t realize they were all together.
A lot of Christians don’t believe hell is literal; they understand it as a metaphor for existing outside the presence of God. A LOT of Christians.
I understand, but conservatives still envision it as an eternal state, resulting from a “decision” we make while in this frail, benighted condition. I find it deplorable. Liberal theology is another matter. And I realize that there is a growing belief in universal salvation among evangelicals, but my sense of it is that the numbers are still small.
Did you give up Zen because you felt it was in conflict with your Christian beliefs? My experience has been that Zen and Vipassana are presented in the West almost entirely as meditative method. Tibetan Buddhism has retained more of its religious aspects. Do you now agree, substantially, with what that fellow was saying?
Posted by Jeannie Campbell on February 2, 2008 at 8:40 pm
John…have you shared your thoughts on evangelizing with those in SBC circles? I went to an SBC seminary to get my degree in counseling. I had to take a class for the basic MDiv curriculum that required us to go to an already highly proselytized section of the city and witness to people by giving out tracks and the like….the exact sort of method that Mr. Orange Cap was likely doing. I can’t believe that it NEVER works…as I had the honor of leading a young girl fallen on hard times to the Lord myself using this “method.” I just thought it was maybe overly harsh to say that that “type” of evangelizing is only about working out personal issues and dealing with anger, not love. Of course, my immediate motivation for even being in the right place at the right time was the impending grade on the exercise, which to some might seem the antithesis to why we should evangelize in the first place. But I believe the heart of the exercise was to get us out of our comfort zones and enable us with the knowledge that God does work through all types of people and all types of motivations and evangelistic methods…no matter how our own selves might get in the way. But most, if not all, SBC seminaries have this type of class…called Supervised Ministry. I’m just curious as to your opinion on this approach.
Posted by Penlee on February 2, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Different strokes for different folks – something must have got through to you!!
Posted by Penlee on February 2, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Just read it again and sorry to say, I thought it was all hilarious! Or is it just the way you have of putting things? Thanks for the good laugh John.
Posted by cwalker21 on February 3, 2008 at 11:18 am
For all who are describing a hell that is merely seperation from the presence of God (although that is a horrible thought) are you reading the same New Testament I am? Jesus described hell as a place of eternal torments, weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place where the devil and all the fallen angels will be (it was designed for them). He described one man who had it made on this side who found himself there and was begging for a drop of water from Lazarus to cool his tongue because he was being tormented in this flame Luke 16:23-25. Jesus said not to fear what man can do to you for all they can do is destroy the body, he said we should fear him (God) who has the power to destroy both soul and body by casting you into hell. Jesus was so strong to say if a part of you body was doing something wrong (arm,eye,ect..) it would be better to cut it off than it would be to let it cause you to go to hell Matthew 5:29-30. Time prevents me from quoting from every place in the New Testament this is spoken however the picture should be clear. Just becasue A LOT of people may not believe in a literal place of punishment for the lost Jesus sure thought it was real.
Posted by Trace on February 3, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Hi John,
Thanks for what you’re doing. I’m so glad I read your book I’m Okay-You’re Not so early in my “Christian career.” I’m sure it has helped me avoid some confusion.
Is anyone familiar with 12-step programs, such as Alcoholics Anonymous? They have a tradition of “attraction rather than promotion.” Basically, they recognize that if you tell a drunk that he needs to admit his complete and utter failure at running his own life and accept that he must turn his will over to God or die a lonely death, he will quite understandably run away screaming.
If you show an alcoholic WHO ASKS (and they eventually will, when they get into enough pain) how you used to be just like him, complete with the pain and the misery, but tell him what you did to get out of it, he will run toward the same thing that helped you, even if it’s something as scary and absolute as God.
AA started about 70 years ago with two guys. Today there are millions of members all over the world.
AA members do not go out searching for drunks (anymore. They did in the very early days, because no one knew who they were yet.) God brings the drunks to them.
The same thing has happened in my own experience. About a month or so after I became a Christian, my best friend pulled me aside and said, “Ok, WHAT is it? Why are you beaming like that? What is going on? Can I have some?” So I told her. She came to church with me that Sunday and was baptised about six weeks later.
Side note- When I met her five years earlier, just the word “Jesus” made her shudder with revulsion. She knew who he was and wanted nothing to do with him. That is, until she saw what he was doing in my crazy life.
God does the work. All I have to do is tell the truth.
Posted by John Shore on February 3, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Cipher: I “gave up” Zen maybe 10 years before I became a Christian. (I didn’t “give up” on it; I just … had come to understand its limitations.) And yes, now I do agree with much of what Mr. Orange Cap did such an awful job of communicating.
Jeannie: You’re right; it was too harsh to say what I did about the anger/love quotient of cold evangelism. This format–blog comments–doesn’t, of course, leave enough room for the kinds of qualifications comprehensive communications naturally deserve. I didn’t take the time to do justice to the completeness of that thought, and for that I sincerly apologize. And since you were kind enough to (so kindly) ask my opinion on the kind of evangelistic technique you excercised that night for your class, I suppose it won’t come as any surprise to you that I don’t much care for it at all. I think it’s wonderful that you saved (or, I know, help saved) that girl. Fantastic, of course!! But my feeling/thought is this: That woman would have come to Christ anyway; she was on her way; you just happened to be the one to give her that final push. But the COST to the faith overall for you having done that was, to my way of thinking, entirely too great. Because for every person EVER in that fashion brought to the faith, infinite numbers more were repelled further from it. Just PRACTICALLY, that kind of evangelism fails at its own purpose. Saving one–who, as I say, was, I am confident, BOUND to be saved anyway–but in the process of “saving” that one repelling, say, 100 others, is just … bad business, basically. I can’t see any way around the fact that it simply does so much more harm to the faith overall than it does good.
Trace: My EXACT point. Once someone asks, it’s on. That’s the key: they have to ASK–they have to trust you that much, care about you that much, find you that attractive. Once they ask, of course you’re then free to essentially answer their question. That’s a beautiful thing. I just wish my fellow Christians would more often bear in mind that the whole point of a WITNESS is, after all, to only answer questions.
Posted by K. A. Young on February 4, 2008 at 6:53 am
I had a friend who was saved by a young girl handing out tracts at Mari Gras. The Holy Spirit was already wooing her and the contrast between the girl and the revellers nudged her across the line from lost to found. If only we could be more sensitive to His leading, we would know which strokes for which folks–and when. That’s how Y’shua knew; He was completely in tune with His Father through the Spirit. But I hope if Mr. Orange Cap were to aggressively try to dissuade me from my beliefs, I would be able to show him my faith by my works, speaking the truth in love. Not either or.
Posted by Billy on February 4, 2008 at 7:39 am
I believe Jesus can fix and use any witness. If we pray that Christ will use any evangelism today, gentle or harsh, from false motives or pure I believe He will. I say grace and forgiveness for brother orange cap. Who among us knows his heart?
Posted by John Shore on February 4, 2008 at 9:20 am
I don’t have a problem in the world with his heart. I have a problem with his behavior.
Posted by Billy on February 4, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Have a problem or had a problem?
Posted by John Shore on February 4, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Both. Obviously, no?
Posted by cordieb on February 4, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Again, thanks for sharing and the humor. Humor does wonders for the soul. Peace, Light and Love to you and Yours. . . CordieB.
You can be so heavenly bound until you are no earthly good – Dr. Oscar Lane
Identification with an organization or a cause is not substitute for self-realization – Swami Rudrananda
Posted by We on February 4, 2008 at 11:03 pm
I’m a Christian Buddhist. The work of zazen is the work of Witness. The Kingdom is here, now. May the peace of Jesus be on you and those who proselytize at you.
Posted by ycs on February 5, 2008 at 6:57 am
Jesus is my savier and he led me to the wisdom of the Buddha after years of praying. Jesus had to withhold deeper teachings (refer to John) due to the capacity of the people at that time and place. Once the deeper teachings were revealed to me via Buddha’s wisdom, I can truely verify what Jesus was saying about the ‘kingdom of heaven’. It is indeed within everyone of us, we just need to open up to it by ‘BE STILL AND KNOW’!!! What is it? If medication can not train you to be still I don’t know what can? Would judging, arguing, attacking others make you still?
There is only one truth, one mind and they can be manifested into varieties of things and they all have to be respected. That’s why Christianity teaches ‘love thy neighbor…’.
I can understand and appreciate Christian’s view through the window of the Buddha’s view, but can the other way around be said?
Christians, if you have enough courage, read up on Buddha’s teaching and get a bigger picture. Jesus was absent for 18 years for spiritual cultivation before he came down to take the cross to save us sentient beings. He lived as a monk, no different from that of a Buddhist monk. Jesus said to be quailified to be his disciple he has to sell everything (including family relationships) and to follow him in spiritual pursuit. Is it anything different from Buddhist monastics? Who can truly qualify to be Jesus disciple nowadays? Who is to say that they alone got it all right? Certainly, Buddha’s teaching is much higher level and is against popular believes, just like in Jesus times, people killed him because of his radical sayings. Likewise, Buddhism is widely misunderstood and even hated among those who have neither a clue nore any comprehension of it. However, as time goes by, we will eventually awake like Buddha did and there will be no more fights among people.
Didn’t Jesus say when you pray go to the closet and close all the (sensual) doors, why bargain or ask favors from God? He know you before you are even born. So, to me, meditation is the proper prayer and it makes a great deal of sense BIG TIME! Only through meditation is when I can connect with Jesus Christ, is when I can testify that Jesus is my Lord and savier.
I have Buddha to thank for, because he gave me Jesus!
Posted by Rachel Cabal on February 5, 2008 at 1:46 pm
please tell me that didn’t really happen…just so I can calm down a tiny bit…please?
Posted by John Shore on February 5, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Are you kidding me, Rachel? I mean, you’re joking, yes? Of course this happened. There’s nothing even almost extraordinary about it. If you’re not a Christian, interactions like this are hardly unknown to you. It’s just … something that happens. Could have been worse, of course. Could have been Ray Comfort with his TV crew, or whatever. Anyway, yes. Typical of this sort of exchange.
Posted by cordieb on February 5, 2008 at 2:22 pm
@YCS. I can feel your comment. I am a Christian and was raised in the Baptist Church. My parents were Baptists, as were all of my family. As a child, I was afraid to ask questions about any other beliefs or doctrines. I was afraid of God too. It was actually very awful. I was baptized, afraid to tell anyone that I had any doubts. I remember faking shouts, because everyone else did it, and wondering was something wrong with me. My father, who became very religious after years of “sinful” acts, confessed to the church of all or most of his transgressions, which included the names of the married women with whom he had affairs; He also felt that God somehow punished him because he married my mother who was a divorcee, and of course that me me a bastard according to the word. But through all the religious dogma, my father truly loved me, and I only knew of these things through family telling me stories and overhearing grown folks talking. As a child and teen, it was blasphemous to read other teachings, accept Muslim flyers and books, read the horoscopes, etc. As a child, I felt so sorry for Jews and Muslems, and Jehova’s Witnesses, because I was taught they were going to Hell. The “Jew Man, who sold me penny candy, and whom I adored was going to hell, because he was a Jew. There were times when I even though my mom wasn’t going to make it because she had a tendency to drink of the spirits. How frightening this was for me. Of course I grew up and found God in my own way. My mother had taught me that the most important thing was “the Golden Rule.” So many so-called Christians have commited the most awful crimes against humanity in the name of Jesus Christ, such as slavery, hanging, etc. Most of my godliness, so far, has come from the workings of Christians, non-traditional Christians, and non-Christians alike. I truly love the Spirt and Essence of Jesus Christ, and his Spirit and Essence is what I strive to be more of each day. Peace, Light and Love to you and yours. . . . CordieB.
Posted by aleey on February 9, 2008 at 5:08 am
You sure can shave. And “sinful idolatry of Zen” must be a registered trade mark.
Posted by carolyn on February 10, 2008 at 2:56 pm
i found this on a facebook group re. soto zen buddhism to which i belong. i have never met a zen-student-turned christian. given my own experience as zen student and former christian and history of interest in most things religious, i thought i’d reach out and ask…what commonalities do you see between zen and whatever form of christianity you practice? (btw, i was raised “culturally” catholic, became an evangelical christian in high school, dabbled in mainline protestantism–episcopal–during college and infrequently attended late-night catholic mass while in seminary. then, didn’t do religion for a while till i discovered zen).