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	<title>Comments on: Heads, God is Real; Tails, He&#8217;s Not</title>
	<atom:link href="http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/</link>
	<description>Trying God&#039;s patience since 1958</description>
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		<title>By: Travis Morgan</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-14825</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-14825</guid>
		<description>John Shore,  It is not a &quot;50-50 binary option.&quot; That is like saying your chances of winning the lottery are 50-50, either you win or you don&#039;t, but we know that chances of winning the the lottery are far less than 50-50. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Shore,  It is not a &quot;50-50 binary option.&quot; That is like saying your chances of winning the lottery are 50-50, either you win or you don&#039;t, but we know that chances of winning the the lottery are far less than 50-50.</p>
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		<title>By: Candace</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-8310</link>
		<dc:creator>Candace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-8310</guid>
		<description>@ Determined Disciple - don&#039;t know if you routinely keep checking back here, but wanted to thank you very much for your comments (excellent!)and for the lead to Paul Sheppard and Enduring Truth. 
 
The links here in the comments didn&#039;t work for me, so I did a search and found him that way (on Oneplace.com). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Determined Disciple &#8211; don&#039;t know if you routinely keep checking back here, but wanted to thank you very much for your comments (excellent!)and for the lead to Paul Sheppard and Enduring Truth.</p>
<p>The links here in the comments didn&#039;t work for me, so I did a search and found him that way (on Oneplace.com).</p>
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		<title>By: Mike (FVThinker) Bur</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-7149</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike (FVThinker) Bur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-7149</guid>
		<description>I know that I am way late into this thread, but since I enjoy your writing, I guess I might be around a while annoying you with non-believing thoughts.  It is likely my observation has already been represented in this thread.  Sorry for not reading all the comments. 
 
John said:&lt;blockquote&gt;The answer to the question of whether or not there&#8217;s a God can only be yes or no, right? &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
For our purposes, this is correct. 
 
John said:&lt;blockquote&gt;Either some Divine Intelligence created and sustains our world and us, or Nature Alone exists. 
 
&lt;strong&gt;and&lt;/strong&gt; 
 
Because the chances of God existing or not are even either way, and because none of us can know which of those two choices is the correct one, choosing one must make exactly as much sense as choosing the other. It&#8217;s a 50-50, binary option. You could be right either way. Same as flipping a coin. Could be heads. Could be tails.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
 
Nope.  Let&#039;s say you walk into a strange house, in a strange town and go into the kitchen.  You see a drawer.  You can argue that it is a 50-50 chance that there is &lt;strong&gt;something&lt;/strong&gt; in that drawer...could be something, could be nothing.  You CANNOT say that there is a 50-50 chance that the drawer is either empty, or there is an antique, silver, bone-handled ice cream scoop engraved with the initial &#039;Y&#039;. 
 
On the matter of God, it can be argued that there is a 50-50 chance of some intelligence.  For our purposes, I will say that this is a valid argument (It is not).  This can only take you to the deist position.  It says nothing of the motives, actions, or involvement of that intelligence.  Attributing specific traits and actions and thoughts to that intelligence is like saying the likelihood of finding the rare ice-cream scoop is just as likely as finding a fork. 
 
Just because neither position is provable does not make each position equally likely. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that I am way late into this thread, but since I enjoy your writing, I guess I might be around a while annoying you with non-believing thoughts.  It is likely my observation has already been represented in this thread.  Sorry for not reading all the comments.</p>
<p>John said:<br />
<blockquote>The answer to the question of whether or not there&rsquo;s a God can only be yes or no, right? </p></blockquote>
<p>For our purposes, this is correct.</p>
<p>John said:<br />
<blockquote>Either some Divine Intelligence created and sustains our world and us, or Nature Alone exists.</p>
<p><strong>and</strong></p>
<p>Because the chances of God existing or not are even either way, and because none of us can know which of those two choices is the correct one, choosing one must make exactly as much sense as choosing the other. It&rsquo;s a 50-50, binary option. You could be right either way. Same as flipping a coin. Could be heads. Could be tails.</p></blockquote>
<p>Nope.  Let&#039;s say you walk into a strange house, in a strange town and go into the kitchen.  You see a drawer.  You can argue that it is a 50-50 chance that there is <strong>something</strong> in that drawer&#8230;could be something, could be nothing.  You CANNOT say that there is a 50-50 chance that the drawer is either empty, or there is an antique, silver, bone-handled ice cream scoop engraved with the initial &#039;Y&#039;.</p>
<p>On the matter of God, it can be argued that there is a 50-50 chance of some intelligence.  For our purposes, I will say that this is a valid argument (It is not).  This can only take you to the deist position.  It says nothing of the motives, actions, or involvement of that intelligence.  Attributing specific traits and actions and thoughts to that intelligence is like saying the likelihood of finding the rare ice-cream scoop is just as likely as finding a fork.</p>
<p>Just because neither position is provable does not make each position equally likely.</p>
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		<title>By: Determined Disciple</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-5045</link>
		<dc:creator>Determined Disciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-5045</guid>
		<description>Try this link instead: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=6780&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try this link instead: <a href="http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=6780" rel="nofollow">http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Determined Disciple</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-5044</link>
		<dc:creator>Determined Disciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-5044</guid>
		<description>Brad, not trying to offend -- simply trying to distinguish between people who rely solely on their bodies and minds to decide what to believe and people who simply believe. I personally know the *intellectual* type -- I have often been confronted by *intellectuals* who pride themselves on their mental faculties and who believe that if a concept is not supported by concrete evidence (more on that later) in this world, then it&#039;s a fallacy. In my opening statement, I meant to establish that even people who are completely capable of reasoning through an issue from an intellectual/LOGICAL standpoint may also accept the Lord&#039;s existence (in all forms -- Omnipotent Author of Life, Holy Spirit, and Jesus the Christ). 
 
You seem to assume that Believers have never considered the &quot;What if&quot; side of faith: What if there is no God? What if the Bible is just a fabulous piece of literature? What if there is no afterlife? There are, indeed, some Christians who have not yet faced such a crisis of faith that they truly question everything. I have, on several occasions, and many -- perhaps even most -- of my fellow Christian &quot;brothers and sisters&quot; have faced this crisis, as well. My faith is no &quot;reaction,&quot; as you call it. And no, saying that I &quot;see God&quot; is not a way to &quot;rationalize belief to myself.&quot; I don&#039;t need to rationalize belief to myself. On the contrary, when I entertained the possibility of there not being anything beyond the natural world that I could experience with all 5 of my 19+ senses, I was spiritually &quot;yanked&quot; back into faith. I did NOT want to believe. No, I &quot;see God&quot; because I have faith, AND I have faith because I &quot;see God.&quot; 
 
I don&#039;t deride anything that will cause me to think differently. I speak the truth. Satan&#039;s tactic has been, from his first experiment, to &quot;logic&quot; a person out of *mindless* obedience. If &quot;speaking to a believer can actually take them out of many beliefs,&quot; then that believer is not solid in his/her faith yet. You can talk to me all day long. You&#039;re not going to talk me out of my faith. 
 
Again, if/when you&#039;re blessed to experience Faith as a divine grace, you&#039;ll get what I&#039;m saying. My faith is neither blind nor wishful. It is solid because the Lord Himself sustains it within me. I can use as much &quot;logic&quot; as a non-believer to support my reasons for my faith, but of course, my &quot;logic&quot; arises from the God-given conviction that His Word is true. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, not trying to offend &#8212; simply trying to distinguish between people who rely solely on their bodies and minds to decide what to believe and people who simply believe. I personally know the *intellectual* type &#8212; I have often been confronted by *intellectuals* who pride themselves on their mental faculties and who believe that if a concept is not supported by concrete evidence (more on that later) in this world, then it&#039;s a fallacy. In my opening statement, I meant to establish that even people who are completely capable of reasoning through an issue from an intellectual/LOGICAL standpoint may also accept the Lord&#039;s existence (in all forms &#8212; Omnipotent Author of Life, Holy Spirit, and Jesus the Christ).</p>
<p>You seem to assume that Believers have never considered the &quot;What if&quot; side of faith: What if there is no God? What if the Bible is just a fabulous piece of literature? What if there is no afterlife? There are, indeed, some Christians who have not yet faced such a crisis of faith that they truly question everything. I have, on several occasions, and many &#8212; perhaps even most &#8212; of my fellow Christian &quot;brothers and sisters&quot; have faced this crisis, as well. My faith is no &quot;reaction,&quot; as you call it. And no, saying that I &quot;see God&quot; is not a way to &quot;rationalize belief to myself.&quot; I don&#039;t need to rationalize belief to myself. On the contrary, when I entertained the possibility of there not being anything beyond the natural world that I could experience with all 5 of my 19+ senses, I was spiritually &quot;yanked&quot; back into faith. I did NOT want to believe. No, I &quot;see God&quot; because I have faith, AND I have faith because I &quot;see God.&quot;</p>
<p>I don&#039;t deride anything that will cause me to think differently. I speak the truth. Satan&#039;s tactic has been, from his first experiment, to &quot;logic&quot; a person out of *mindless* obedience. If &quot;speaking to a believer can actually take them out of many beliefs,&quot; then that believer is not solid in his/her faith yet. You can talk to me all day long. You&#039;re not going to talk me out of my faith.</p>
<p>Again, if/when you&#039;re blessed to experience Faith as a divine grace, you&#039;ll get what I&#039;m saying. My faith is neither blind nor wishful. It is solid because the Lord Himself sustains it within me. I can use as much &quot;logic&quot; as a non-believer to support my reasons for my faith, but of course, my &quot;logic&quot; arises from the God-given conviction that His Word is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-4985</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 22:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-4985</guid>
		<description>DeterminedDisciple, is your opening statement trying to offend? Are you saying some of us are just trying to be *intellectuals* here?

Speaking to a believer [in Christianity/theism/religion] can actually take them out of many beliefs. The fundamental weapon is &lt;i&gt;questioning&lt;/i&gt;, questioning your feelings and doubts, your reasons and ideas, yourself and your peers. This does not mean &lt;i&gt;never accepting&lt;/i&gt;, it means honest thinking, not just wishful or blind.

Our world is inspiring, meaningful, beautiful, and so on, but why do you think this necessitates a person who decided on it all? This is a question for theists to think about. If it&#039;s your initial reaction, and you think your reaction is caused by a ghost, then perhaps you should think about it instead of just reacting. Saying that you &quot;see God&quot; and that it&#039;s all the proof you need to be certain is a way to rationalize belief to yourself and others, but it is a defensive barrier to skepticism, an escape from justification. And of course, you deride anything that may cause you to think differently: &quot;[...] logic, a frequent bedfellow of Satan.&quot;

P.S. Could you get a working link DD? I&#039;m curious about Sheppard&#039;s explanations of the Christian god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DeterminedDisciple, is your opening statement trying to offend? Are you saying some of us are just trying to be *intellectuals* here?</p>
<p>Speaking to a believer [in Christianity/theism/religion] can actually take them out of many beliefs. The fundamental weapon is <i>questioning</i>, questioning your feelings and doubts, your reasons and ideas, yourself and your peers. This does not mean <i>never accepting</i>, it means honest thinking, not just wishful or blind.</p>
<p>Our world is inspiring, meaningful, beautiful, and so on, but why do you think this necessitates a person who decided on it all? This is a question for theists to think about. If it&#8217;s your initial reaction, and you think your reaction is caused by a ghost, then perhaps you should think about it instead of just reacting. Saying that you &#8220;see God&#8221; and that it&#8217;s all the proof you need to be certain is a way to rationalize belief to yourself and others, but it is a defensive barrier to skepticism, an escape from justification. And of course, you deride anything that may cause you to think differently: &#8220;[...] logic, a frequent bedfellow of Satan.&#8221;</p>
<p>P.S. Could you get a working link DD? I&#8217;m curious about Sheppard&#8217;s explanations of the Christian god.</p>
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		<title>By: DeterminedDisciple</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-4873</link>
		<dc:creator>DeterminedDisciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-4873</guid>
		<description>P.S. For those of you frustrated with the seeming inconsistencies in God&#039;s morality (which, even if there were &quot;inconsistencies&quot;, would be completely God&#039;s prerogative, since He is, after all, God)... give a listen to Pastor Paul Sheppard @ &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.enduringtruth.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.enduringtruth.org&lt;/a&gt;. I have been to many churches and listened to many pastors, but I have never yet heard another preacher &quot;explain&quot; God and His ways more coherently than Pastor Paul does. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. For those of you frustrated with the seeming inconsistencies in God&#039;s morality (which, even if there were &quot;inconsistencies&quot;, would be completely God&#039;s prerogative, since He is, after all, God)&#8230; give a listen to Pastor Paul Sheppard @ <a href="http://www.enduringtruth.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.enduringtruth.org</a>. I have been to many churches and listened to many pastors, but I have never yet heard another preacher &quot;explain&quot; God and His ways more coherently than Pastor Paul does.</p>
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		<title>By: DeterminedDisciple</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-4870</link>
		<dc:creator>DeterminedDisciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-4870</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny to me, as both an *intellectual* and a devout Believer, how the atheists/agnostics/deists/scientologists/etc. are trying their darndest to logic Believers out of their belief. Non-Believers, a clue: It won&#039;t work, for many reasons, two of which I will expound upon here.  
 
1) Our faith has been supplied by the Holy Spirit Himself, and as the Most Powerful Entity in the universe, the Holy Spirit will do a fine job retaining our faith within those of us who BELIEVE that He dwells within us. Simply put, you can&#039;t force out the power of the Holy Spirit... not even with logic, a frequent bedfellow of Satan. Satan is no match for God.  
 
2) Faith is &quot;being certain of what [we] don&#039;t see&quot; (Hebrews 11:1b). So trying to *prove* that there is no *proof* of God is moot. So what if you don&#039;t BELIEVE that there IS proof that God exists? I BELIEVE that there is proof, and I believe that if you accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by accepting the divinity and Ultimate Atonement provided by the Lord Jesus Christ, you would see the proof that I see. But be warned, what I mean by &quot;see&quot; is, in fact, a spiritual perspective. I can look with my eyes at a child and know with my brain how he/she was created physiologically, but what I &quot;see&quot; when I look at a child is nothing short of a miracle. I don&#039;t SEE God, as Jesus&#039; contemporaries did. But I see God and His workmanship everywhere in this world. That&#039;s all the *proof* I need to be certain. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;s funny to me, as both an *intellectual* and a devout Believer, how the atheists/agnostics/deists/scientologists/etc. are trying their darndest to logic Believers out of their belief. Non-Believers, a clue: It won&#039;t work, for many reasons, two of which I will expound upon here. </p>
<p>1) Our faith has been supplied by the Holy Spirit Himself, and as the Most Powerful Entity in the universe, the Holy Spirit will do a fine job retaining our faith within those of us who BELIEVE that He dwells within us. Simply put, you can&#039;t force out the power of the Holy Spirit&#8230; not even with logic, a frequent bedfellow of Satan. Satan is no match for God. </p>
<p>2) Faith is &quot;being certain of what [we] don&#039;t see&quot; (Hebrews 11:1b). So trying to *prove* that there is no *proof* of God is moot. So what if you don&#039;t BELIEVE that there IS proof that God exists? I BELIEVE that there is proof, and I believe that if you accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by accepting the divinity and Ultimate Atonement provided by the Lord Jesus Christ, you would see the proof that I see. But be warned, what I mean by &quot;see&quot; is, in fact, a spiritual perspective. I can look with my eyes at a child and know with my brain how he/she was created physiologically, but what I &quot;see&quot; when I look at a child is nothing short of a miracle. I don&#039;t SEE God, as Jesus&#039; contemporaries did. But I see God and His workmanship everywhere in this world. That&#039;s all the *proof* I need to be certain.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Card &#171; Questions and Challenges</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-6/#comment-4799</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Card &#171; Questions and Challenges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 04:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-4799</guid>
		<description>[...] to it in Reclaiming the Mind, and also by the latest posts and comments in Johnshoreland such as this and this. Lord willing, I might be able to find some time to write on this next [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to it in Reclaiming the Mind, and also by the latest posts and comments in Johnshoreland such as this and this. Lord willing, I might be able to find some time to write on this next [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/02/28/theres-no-arguing-it-we-cant-know-if-theres-a-god-or-not/comment-page-5/#comment-4798</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 03:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=290#comment-4798</guid>
		<description>^^ Subtle language derived from the real world gives wannabe-human Turing machines a disadvantage! 

This comment will mean something to you 30 years from now . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>^^ Subtle language derived from the real world gives wannabe-human Turing machines a disadvantage! </p>
<p>This comment will mean something to you 30 years from now . . .</p>
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