Before I was a Christian, I just assumed that all Christians believed in Satan. Now that I’ve been a Christian for twelve years, I know that some Christians believe in Satan, and some Christians don’t.
My first six years as a Christian I attended a very large, old, rich, conservative Presbyterian church in downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years did I hear Satan mentioned from the pulpit. For the last six years, I’ve attented a very large, old, rich, liberal Episcopal church just outside downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years have I heard Satan mentioned from the pulpit. Because of my work I’ve gone to all kinds of services in all kinds of churches, and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard Satan mentioned from any pulpit — and if I have, it’s never been more than in passing. I once had a job as a Church Relations Manager for a Christian Rescue Mission, and nobody at that job ever mentioned the Devil or Satan. It’s the same in my professional life now. It’s just not something that ever comes up.
It’s been my own personal, humble experience that if Christians do believe in Satan, they don’t talk about it very much at all.
The question of Satan did, however, come up the other night during a Lenten class I’m leading at an Episcopal church here in the San Diego area. The subject of the night was evil. I had offered up my Basic Thought on the matter (which, if you care, you can read at Evil: Surprise! It’s a Good Thing!), and in the discussion afterward a man asked me if I believed in Satan.
“I think the whole idea of an evil entity existing out in the world is pure hogwash,” he said. “What do you think?”
The first thing I thought was, “Wow! Someone’s finally talking about Satan. And in a church!”
That was the good news. The bad was that the man had asked his question a full five minutes after the class was supposed to have ended. So we’re going to pick up on that subject next week.
If you were me, how would you answer that question?
(I suppose I should say that my personal answer amounts to this: I don’t care if Satan is real or not; I tend to have zero interest in questions I know can’t be answered. I know I believe in the reality of evil; and I know I have enough on my plate keeping as much of it as possible out of my own heart, mind, and behavior. And I know that’s enough to keep me busy for one life time. I certainly don’t have any problem with the idea of Satan being real. I think it’s a perfectly useful and even outstanding construct. Because it’s true that whenever you’re dealing with real, pure evil, it feels as if there is more to it than can be accounted for by the sum of its parts. It does feel separate from people in that way. So at the very least I think the idea of Satan makes perfect sense; I have found it is sometimes good and helpful to think of evil as something outside of, or foreign to, human nature and/or God’s will. As I say, though, the bottom line for me personally is that I stay plenty busy just trying to rid myself of all the selfish, greedy, petty, animalistic thoughts and feelings that I know I generate by myself, on my own, every hour of every day. I sure don’t need Satan to understand the difference between right or wrong, or to help me know when any wrong that’s happened is my own fault, and due to my own nature.)
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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John said, "I tend to have zero interest in questions I know can't be answered. I know I believe in the reality of evil…I certainly don’t have any problem with the idea of Satan being real. I think it’s a perfectly useful and even outstanding construct."
What a bad joke. Satan is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. The question CAN be answered from the Bible quite easily. You SHOULD have a problem with people believing in a being called Satan if there really isn't one, because that type of thinking is delusional. There is nothing useful or outstanding about believing something that isn't true.
Do everyone a favor and read the Bible with the idea that you get Truth from it instead of you bringing your truth to it. You are going to be misleading people with this type of writing.
The presence of evil without the presence of a real Satan is an unbiblical concept.
~Connie
You're kidding, right?
all i can do is laugh because this who satan really is. Satan is very cunny and the root of all evil. This is one of his tricks to make poeple NOT believe in him. In order to be close to God you have to be without sin. IN satan is the founder of sin. I will say this SATAN CAN EVEN TURN HIMSELF INTO GOD…he can fool anyone if they dont stand firm with GOD. so yea he is real…to not think of him as not being real than may GOD BLESS YOU to open your eyes in see evil…
In Rev 12 Satan is shown to be behind the persecution of the saints during 1260 years of the "Dark Ages".
Satan is real.
Bob
In Matt 4 Satan "materializes" without Christ yielding to a single temptation.
In Matt 4 Satan even transports Christ to the top of the temple for one of the tests.
In Job 1 and Job 2 – Satan appears before God and other beings – without God or any other being yielding to his temptation.
In Rev 12 Satan is shown to conduct War along with his angels against God's angels — and to lose and to be cast down to this earth. The earth is real, the Angels are real, God is real, Satan is real.
Bob
satan materializes only through the human that lends him/herself to his whims and caprices. The fact that he exists cannot be denied. The Bible states in 1Peter 5:8 that "your enemy, the devil goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour"
I believe that satan exists as the voice of temptation. Satan is that voice that tells you to steal, to kill, seduce the secretary, or run off with your neighbour's wife/husband. The moment you act on these temptations you accord tangibility to satan.
In essence, one becomes the body through which he can manifest.
Without human compliance satan would only roam and roar.
When we, by our own volition submit to temptation, we must be ready to face the consequences rather than blame satan for our actions. Satan can tempt us, but he cannot make us sin.
Actually, the Bible depicts in The Book of Revelations that there is a war going on between God and the devil, and Jesus Christ is the Victor. This war is "front and center" to Christianity.
To not believe the Words of Jesus is to not believe Him. He testified
that He spoke Words from His Heavenly Father.
The pride of man and desiring to do whatever we please — sin — keeps us from accepting and following the Lord.
There's plenty of hard evidence there's sin in the world.
Are these sins? Lying, stealing, rape, murder, hatred, betrayal, greed, pride, slander, division?
How about the Ted Bundys of the world, or the Jeffery Dahmers? Do you think their acts were sinful? How about very dark and sinister, demonic even?
From Wikipedia:
"Dahmer served his time at the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin, where he ultimately declared himself a born-again Christian. This conversion occurred after viewing Evangelical material sent to him by his father. A local preacher, Roy Ratcliff, met with Dahmer and agreed to baptize him."
Dahmer himself claimed "Something took over," that evil forces may have led him to commit his crimes.
Dahmer wasn't trying to escape liability. He admitted killings.
_____________________________________________________________
Ted Bundy:
In an execution-eve interview conducted by Dr. James Dobson:
Point 4: Bundy was eventually driven by an evil supernatural force. Although he never named this force as demon possession, his descriptions of it, and the obvious results, point to a classic case of intermittent (time-sharing) demon possession.
Mr. Bundy: ". . . have been possessed by something so awful and so alien, and then the next morning wake up from it, remember what happened . . .
Point 5: Despite the influences of obscenity and demonic forces, Bundy recognized his need to be accountable to society and God for his behavior.
Mr. Bundy: ". . . I deserve, certainly, the most extreme punishment society has and society deserves to be protected from me and from others like me, that's for sure."
_______________________________________________________________
The Book of Revelations:
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers, (the devil, which means "accuser")
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
I think I'm going to accept what Jesus says is true, not only because I believe Him but because I have personally witnessed it. We are either with Him — or not.
Luke 10:17-25
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
Sorry it's such an unpleasant topic, but it's a reality we deal with.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
And on that note:
Philippians 4:8
[ Meditate on These Things ] Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
But walk "circumspectly and redeem the time"…
May our Father protect you all and richly bless you with His peace.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
“Morse, respectfully, have you ever witnessed anyone channeling voices? The spirits actually speak through the host in voices not their own.”
Yes, I’ve seen people talk in voices other than their own. They’re called ‘ventriloquists’. Or ‘impressionists’. Or ‘voice-over actors’. Do I think that people who ‘channel voices’ are lying? Not necessarily. But the human voice is certainly able to sound incredibly different.
“They will also control the person’s body, such as automatic writing, or more violently throw them around.”
And a person can replicate such things very easily if they are either lying or have an issue with their brain.
“and also give them knowledge of things or events they shouldn’t know because the host will hear voices which tell them things”
Cold reading. Check it out. It’s quite interesting.
“I’ve also known people who have suffered hell fire on earth, a terrible, excrutiating torment, and the Bible supports such experience in Job 8. There are a lot of people who have experienced all types of torments, and the devil’s greatest trick is to blind the eyes of nonbelievers.”
Sounds like people who are in mental or physical pain and refuse to go to the doctor.
“which I’m sure you must believe exists — sin that is?”
Nope. I believe people can do right and wrong. But ‘sinning’? If it includes thoughts, which gender you can love, what fibers you should wear and whether to cover your head? No. Those aren’t sins. Those are morally neutral things that many religions label as ‘sin’.
Do you or do you not? The bible speaks of the devil. He came to tempt Jesus on his 40 day fast. Its noted in the KJV
i belive. i seen him. you do not.
In the Gospels Jesus made it very clear that satan is real. Jesus said it, that settles it!!!!!!!!!!!
Much has be discussed about if there is a real Satan. 1 Pet. 3:8 says, "be on the alert, Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." You're easy prey, if you don't even know there is a real enemy.
It is real popular not to believe there a real Satan, but is that what the Bible teaches? No, he is a real being.
We need to know what we believe – read and study God's Word.
I found the small group study for Christians – "The Truth Project" (Focus on the Family) to be a excellent way to have a Biblical World View – which well help to answer questions like "Where does evil come from".
"I don’t care if Satan is real or not…".
Peter says, "Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Stand firm against him, and be strong in your faith." 1 Peter 5:8
Although we are to live in our faith in Christ, we are warned and told that we need to know Satan exists and to stay alert – be aware of his tactics that could ensnare us, and one of these is to doubt his existence and even if we believe in him, ignore him.
There are three oppositions to God: the world, the flesh and Satan. We need to focus on Christ as our life, but be fully informed of all that could side track us.
"Believe me, they are very real and very powerful."
I'm sorry, but I don't. Believe you that is.
Which is not to say I think you're lying. You could certainly believe these things. But your belief in them doesn't make them real.
And I seriously hope one day you're able to free your mind from these superstitions.
Morse, respectfully, Benjamin Franklin could have said he was a Christ-follower, but look at some of the things Christ said. He said he was the son of God, could forgive sins, and was the way, the truth and the life and that no man could get to God except through Him. Jesus’ words do not leave us the option of believing He is a wise teacher. H claimed to be God. Therefore either He was God, he was lying, or he was delusional.
Why would someone claim to be a ‘follower’ of a person that they believe was either deluded or lying? I don’t know, but I think Franklin liked an idea of Jesus or certain aspects of Jesus, but did not accept all of His claims. This does not make Franklin a Christian. Christians accept Jesus as Lord (God).
Sorry to get off topic.
Correction: It's Job 33, not Job 8. Sorry.
There are people on this earth that actually suffer torment due to involvement in the occult. The New Testament talks about various people, including a child, who suffered terrible torment from demons. Believe me, they are very real and very powerful. Our refuge is Jesus Christ, the only One Who can deliver. Believe the account of those who have encountered it.
Job 33:14-30
14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,
18 to preserve his soul from the pit, [b]
his life from perishing by the sword. [c]
19 Or a man may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in his bones,
20 so that his very being finds food repulsive
and his soul loathes the choicest meal.
21 His flesh wastes away to nothing,
and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
22 His soul draws near to the pit, [d]
and his life to the messengers of death. [e]
23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,
24 to be gracious to him and say,
'Spare him from going down to the pit [f] ;
I have found a ransom for him'-
25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's;
it is restored as in the days of his youth.
26 He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.
27 Then he comes to men and says,
'I sinned, and perverted what was right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, [g]
and I will live to enjoy the light.'
29 "God does all these things to a man—
twice, even three times-
30 to turn back his soul from the pit, [h]
that the light of life may shine on him.
Morse, respectfully, have you ever witnessed anyone channeling voices? The spirits actually speak through the host in voices not their own. They will also control the person's body, such as automatic writing, or more violently throw them around, and also give them knowledge of things or events they shouldn't know because the host will hear voices which tell them things. I know this for a fact because I've known people that I completely trust who have been involved in the occult and have supernatural knowledge and powers.
I've also known people who have suffered hell fire on earth, a terrible, excrutiating torment, and the Bible supports such experience in Job 8. There are a lot of people who have experienced all types of torments, and the devil's greatest trick is to blind the eyes of nonbelievers.
Morse, I pray you *never* come in contact with anything of the sort, but that you might believe the testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Savior of the world, who died for the forgiveness of sins, which I'm sure you must believe exists — sin that is?
Oh, yeah: There are a LOT of Christians who believe hell isn’t a real place at all, but rather a metaphor for being away from God. They don’t see that much in the NT having to do with hell, and what they do see doesn’t tell them that hell is the whole literal, burning-forever prace Christians have traditionally held it to be. I get the impression Burning Forever hell isn’t even taught in seminary schools anymore–or certainly not as often as it used to be.
Anyway, for sure lots and lots and lots of Christians out there reject the traditional Christian understanding of hell. I know a lot of deep, profound, extremely knowledgeable (sp???) Christians who think the tradtional construct of hell is just … not true.
Wow. This is an entirely new idea to me: I never knew there were Christians who didn’t believe in Satan. Since there are many references to Satan in the Bible, I’m not even sure I understand where the questions are coming from. As someone raised in a fire and brimstone preaching church, who now attends services at a much less hell-fire preaching church, I have noticed a distinct absence of all things uncomfortable from many pulpits lately. However, I did not realize that it was due to a reluctance to believe in these concepts, but always thought it was part of the movement to make church more appealing to people in order to get them attending and saved, and then discuss the difficult concepts later. To find out that there are actually so many people who do not believe in something so clearly addressed in the Bible is very disturbing to me. I hope these questions are resolved for these people soon, before it’s too late and they unfortunately find their questions answered in a way they would not have wanted to see.
"Forgive me, but HOW CAN YOU NOT BELIEVE IN DEMONS IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE LORD??? There’s PLENTY of evidence of demon involvement in this world."
Um…no there's not. There's plenty of people saying they see demons, or are demons. But no evidence for actual demons.
Don't get me started on evidence for 'the lord'.
I just had to say to the writer above, Clyde: RIGHT ON AND WRITE ON…
You speak Truth.
Amen.
satan is definitely real. I have personally known people who have encountered demons. Or perhaps go to satan's church in San Francisco. You can find testimonies of people who have had spirit guides dominate them and been set free. Just talk to people in Louisiana who are familiar with witchcraft. They'll tell you of accounts of spirits speaking through people in different voices. The demons will even tell you their names.
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/out-of-oc…
http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/newage…
Have you all ever heard of "channeling" spirits? How about automatic handwriting? How about clairvoyance? How about out-of-body experiences? It's all demonic activity.
I used to work in a courtroom. A lot of people who commit crimes are under the direct influence of demons. A lot of people who end up on the street are under the direct influence of demons. We call them "crazy" but they're really just very harassed.
Forgive me, but HOW CAN YOU NOT BELIEVE IN DEMONS IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE LORD??? There's PLENTY of evidence of demon involvement in this world.
In some respects, there's more evidence of demons in this world than there is of the Lord, because the Lord is purely spirit and He does not harass people as demons do.
The devil subliminally puts thoughts in our heads, but we do "the deed," so no, the devil didn't make me do it, but he sure had an influence. The Lord influences us for good works.
Evidence of demons? Look at TV, movies, violent crimes. The devil is behind most of it, influencing society to cause destruction, apathy.
Many heinous criminals admit to having heard voices, and they are NOT lying or delusional. They really ARE hearing voices. Can't you understand that some of these heinous acts are really inspired by dark forces, not human at all?
Forgive me again, but WAKE UP!!!!! Please wake up.
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers…" IT'S REALLY TRUE. I TESTIFY THAT IT THE DEVIL IS REAL, and SO IS JESUS CHRIST, WHO SITS IN THE POWER SEAT.
Do I want to focus on the devil? NO. Do I want to "walk circumspectly because my adversary roams around seeking whom he may devour"? You'd better believe I'm walking circumspectly…
Fellow believers: "Redeem the time." The world has a way of blinding us.
I would have asked the man why he thinks that the idea of an evil entity out there is "pure hogwash." He didn't offer any reasons. Jesus believes in Satan's existence, which is enough for me. I attended an Episcopal church for many years and rarely heard about Satan, hell, or even sin. The priest also explained away miracles (feeding the five thousand came about by a chain reaction of sharing, etc.). I think that Satan, hell, and sin are the real inconvenient truths of our day. The fact that churches ignore them is neither here nor there.
Keeping in mind that Jesus was Jewish I think it might help to understand the Jewish take on Satan. Here is an excerpt from a treatise on this subject:
http://geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/satan.html
One of my son's best friends is a very learned and conservative young Jewish lady. We have had a few good conversations about Judaica and the Hebrew scriptures that have been very enlightening.
If Jesus believed in Satan then he believed in a Jewish idea of the adversary, not a later Christian version that was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy and pagan superstition.
The same with Hell. The concept didn't come to fruition until the middle ages. Hel was a female Norse goddess who ruled the underworld. Hades was a Greek concept. The Jewish scriptures only speaks of Sheol – the grave. Jesus mentions Gehenna – an actual burning garbage pit near Jerusalem. The lake of fire – a great metaphor for something very undesirable. Kind of hard to base a firm doctrine on that type of history.
Do I believe satan is real? The real question is do you believe GOD'S word? If Jesus was not above being tempted by satan (Matthew 4), then how can we dare not believe he exists and will not tempt us. This was after JESUS was baptized by John. Our greatest temptation is doubting the word of GOD and giving it our own interpretations because it makes us feel better.
My sister and grandmother once got into one hell of an argument over this very issue.
"How much of what Christ said – can you knowingly reject/downsize/water-down/revise/discount and still be truly “A follower of Christ” ?"
Ask Thomas Jefferson. His version of the bible removes everything supernatural or god related, and only includes the teachings of Jesus.
But he still considered himself, essentially, a follower of Christ.
Excellent question. And I think it needs to be directed more often to church leaders and theologians who, though they perhaps insist upon doctrinal consensus, fail to be overly concerned about Jesus’ other commands, particularly those found in Matthew 25: 31-46.
How much of what Christ said – can you knowingly reject/downsize/water-down/revise/discount and still be truly “A follower of Christ” ?
By the above I don't mean to impugne the large group of Bible scholars that do promote the actual statements of scripture with the same "attention to detail" that one might have found in the monks and scribes of the middle ages. People willing to count every letter to make sure they got it right.
Bob
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