The firmly established default Christian proclamation on the “question” of homosexuality is that being inclined toward it is no different than being inclined toward any other kind of sinful behavior.
“We’re all sinners,” runs the refrain. “We all struggle to overcome our sinful ways. Homosexuality is a sin. Just like all of us must strive to control our sinful behavior, so the homosexual must strive to overcome his or her sexual predilection. Even if a person is born gay or lesbian — even if homosexuality is genetic — a homosexual must still strive to overcome the ungodly behaviors toward which he or she is inclined, the same as we all must overcome our lower nature in order to realize our highest.”
That proposition is so logically flawed it should embarrass any Christian who hears it, much less says it. It completely ignores the crucial, absolute difference between homosexuality and the other sins people typically struggle against committing, which is that committing virtually every kind of sin except homosexuality objectively and tangibly hurts someone. If you lie, steal, cheat, rob, have an extramarital affair, be too greedy, be too selfish, waste your family’s money, and/or do any other kind of sin you can think of, someone, in no uncertain or abstract terms, gets hurt. That rule never changes, and has as much to do with theology or philosophy as a brick to the head has to do with architecture.
But you take the Bible out of the equation, and what grounds is there for determining that homosexuality is wrong? Whom does such love hurt? When two men are affectionately holding hands, who is getting hurt? When two women are snuggling together on their couch to watch TV, who is getting hurt?
Virtually all other behaviors Christians typically consider sinful can be readily understood as objectively and clearly wrong without any reference to the Bible. But you take the Bible out of a Christian’s hands, and he has no arrow left to shoot at the gay man or lesbian. He’s without recourse, justification, argument. Without his Bible to quote from, he has virtually nothing upon which to base his claim that homosexuality is wrong.
A dim-witted child could see that homosexuality isn’t the same as other kinds of sins. It’s distinctly, absolutely, categorically different. It’s like placing a robot in a pen with a bunch of farm animals, and then claiming that what makes the robot a farm animal is that a book you believe in says that robots are farm animals. That’s cool for you. But it doesn’t change the objective, empirical fact that robots aren’t farm animals. You’ve made the mistake of claiming that a subjective truth of yours is equal to an objective truth of everyone else’s in the world. It’s not. A robot shouldn’t be classified as a farm animal, because it doesn’t meet the first, most important criterion of being a farm animal, which is being an animal. Similarly, homosexuality shouldn’t be classified as a sin, because it doesn’t meet the first, most important criterion of being a sin, which is manifestly causing harm.
I’m a Christian, and no two ways about it. But I can’t be a Christian so severely lacking in logical powers that I don’t notice the difference between homosexuality and all the other kinds of sins anyone’s always doing. The latter hurts people; the former doesn’t. I can’t help that; and I’d certainly rather not shame myself by attempting to argue it.
Also, it’s high time Christians were honest about the fact that asserting that homosexuals should stop acting homosexual necessarily means asserting that they should spend their lives never knowing the loving intimacy with another that straight people enjoy and know to be the best and richest experience in life. Asking a homosexual to give up homosexual love isn’t at all like asking him to give up booze, or greed, or any other such negative thing. It’s asking him to give up love.
If I were gay, and I lived as most Christians would prescribe for me as ideal, I would live alone. I’d wake up every morning next to no one. I’d never hold hands with anyone. I’d never kiss or be kissed by anyone. I’d never cuddle up with anyone. I would not know the profound pleasure of every day growing older with anyone. For me, remaining as sinless as possible would mean never knowing love of the sort that all straight people, Christian or not, understand as pretty much the best thing life has to offer.
I hear a lot of Christians asserting that gays and lesbians should stop acting like gays and lesbians. But I never hear any of them saying the unavoidable follow-up to that — saying what that actually means — which is that gay and lesbian men and women should spend their lives never experiencing what people most commonly mean when they use the word “love.”
When, all along, the Bible repeatedly, emphatically, and explicitly tells us that God is love.
Something is seriously wrong somewhere in the mix between Christians and Christianity. (And it’s spelled Paul — whom I love, but about whom we really should be more clear. But that’s for another post.)
I want to be the very best Christian I can. And that means being as scrupulously honest as I can. And on the topic of homosexuality, that means admitting that being gay is not like any other sin, and that the Christian proscription of homosexuality is nothing less than a call for anyone who is gay to live their entire life never experiencing the physical expressions of love that all of we straight people happily accept as one of the very best things about being alive. Those two things are true, no matter how many logic-challenged pastors daring to call themselves compassionate Bible lovers claim they’re not.
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John thank you so much for this post. As you can see from some of the replies posted here, many gay people are justifiably wary of Christians who say “hate the sin and love the sinner”. When fundamentalists insist that gay people are perverted, desperate, miserable etc., it is so incredibly arrogant and dismissive to think that all gay people suffer these things without any mention of the fact that MANY straight people fall into these categories as well. Promiscuity, unhappiness, loneliness, pain, and “dark degrading and soul numbing sexual practices” are as frequent among straight couples as gay, and to link these traits only with homosexuals betrays a prejudice that causes many gays to justifiably fear Christianity. The kind of commentary that says gay people are dangerous, sinful. duplicitous and riddled with disease, especially when expressed without any hesitation by Christian leaders, can be directly linked to physical harm to gay people. I recently heard a gay man speak of how, when he told his Christian father that he was gay, his father told him that he would rather his son was dead. Many gay teens attempt suicide because of the shame and guilt they fear about their orientation, and who is telling them that being gay is shameful? I believe that Jesus’ message was one of inclusiveness. As a gay Christian, who has been in a monogamous relationship for 17 years, now legally married in a Christian Church, I KNOW that gay people can find full affirmation and acceptance within Christianity. The kind of bigotry that is expressed by some Christians is more akin to fundamentalists of other religions who see no problem with executing gays, non-virgins etc. It has no place in a true Christian community. Thank you again John.
There are far too many comments for me to read at this time, although I do believe I read a good sampling of them, including the response by MarkF. It's to Mark that I respond.
In your first section, you state "Homosexual practice tends to be dark, degrading and soul numbing." I think you're overgeneralizing based on your personal experience. I would be what most would call bi, although I consider myself a lesbian. I should also say that I've only been a Christian for the past 5 years although I was raised in a Christian environment. Based on MY experience, homosexual practice is in no way dark or degrading. It was loving, nurturing, and caring. The couple serious "straight" relationships I had were much darker than I would ever imagine with another woman. Your statement was all-inclusive, exactly like those made by prejudiced, bigoted people of any flavor.
In 3, you say that sexual sins defile us more than any other sin based on Paul's writings. Since becoming a Christian I do believe this to be true, but probably our definition is different. Sexual sin is sex outside of a committed union, be that hetero- or homo-sexual. I no longer have casual sexual relationships but do hope to have a committed relationship sometime in the future.
I wonder how, in your 4th paragraph, you can say that "non-Christian cultures have found that the practice of homosexuality is destructive?" On what do you base this opinion? Most advanced nations seem to be moving into the direction where gay marriages are becoming legal, so are all these nations being destructive in doing so?
At one point you say that homosexuals will not be honest with straight people. Just to set the record straight, yes, many of us will be. I have only ever hidden things I'm ashamed of. I'm not ashamed of who I am and don't make it a habit of doing things worthy of shame.
You state: "Homosexuality is a path to pain on earth." and "All the “gay” couples I know have either stopped being sexual with each other, or “play” with others." I'm very sorry that YOUR experiences brought you so much pain. Can you see that possibly there was more going on than just being gay? Obviously the people you associated with weren't very well adjusted either because they "all" stop being sexual or seek sex outside of their committed relationships. Well-adjusted adults who are capable of commitment are capable of remaining sexual with only their partner whether they are straight or gay.
I find most of your statements based solely on experiences that were hurtful to you. Please don't put your experiences on me, because it just ain't true.
Based on MY experience John is spot on, as usual.
@mark f, you just sound lonely and scorned, it's pathetic…
John, thank you for the insight…
I see your point, John, but what you are missing is that Christians that know what the Bible says think they are being kind and generous by saying it's just like any other sin. They're trying to be nonjudgmental. I think that's important to remember. For people who don't believe the Bible, hence, don't believe it is a sin, this sounds insulting and intolerant. But only half of the commandments are about doing harm to someone else. The rest are about harming God. And some of the things, like envy,jealousy, greed, only harm oneself, not anyone else.
MarkF, what an astonishingly courageous post. I’m sorry no one has responded. I hope you find peace and love.
Such a contentious subject, I will brief, even though each of my points could be greatly expanded upon
1.) The assumption here in the original article is that the practice of homosexuality is really just the same as love between a man and woman. It's not. I've spent thirty years practicing homosexuality, and you know what? All those "scary" Christian videos about what homosexuals do are not overstated. Homosexual practice tends to be dark, degrading and soul numbing. And it gets worse the longer a person is into it. I could talk for weeks non-stop about what homosexual reality is versus what homosexual propaganda tells us that it is.
2.) To assume, as the author does, that homosexuality is a victimless sin, also forces us to assume that when God tells us that it's wrong, he in fact is warning us of something that is benign. In essence then God is just giving us a meaningless commandment. God does not do that.
3.) St. Paul tells us that these so-called victimless sexual sins in fact unite with whores. In spiritual terms, sex is about union, "the two become one." The Bible in fact tells us sexual sins defile us MUCH more than other sins.
4.) Without the Bible, all non-Christian cultures have found that the practice of homosexuality is destructive. We don't need the Bible to see that homosexuality is dangerous. Can anyone tell me the name of one country, one state, or one city even where homosexuality is widely practiced where AIDS is not a major problem?
5.) "I have many gay friends, neighbors, relatives, etc. and they are nice people." Yes, they may very well be. But you don't know their homosexual side. You only see the non-sexual side. What they do is hidden from you. If you're straight, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOES ON, and no homosexual person will be honest with you.
6.) Homosexuality causes much unhappiness, this is why over HALF of gay men have been under the care of a psychologist, experience much more depression than straight people, are prone to drug and alcohol abuse, are plagued with AIDS, commit suicide at high rates…the list goes on and on. Homosexual activists, of which I used to be one, will never talk about this…except when they want to use these facts to blame it all on Christianity.
7.) "Homosexuals should be left to experience love in their own ways." Well, this search for love only leads to more pain, perversion, loneliness, and debauchery. I'm 51. I've seen this myself. I see it ALL around me in every city or country I've been in. Homosexuality is a path to pain on earth. Some my settle into a life of friendship, work and relatives. But the sexual aspect always ends badly. All the "gay" couples I know have either stopped being sexual with each other, or "play" with others. It's not just that homosexuals don't age well, it's that time and homosexuality is a fatal combination…the practice gets weirder the more time goes on.
I’m with you, Mark. Not on your overall contention, but that I will respond briefly, even though the points could be expanded upon greatly. Also, thanks for numbering your points. It makes a response easier.
1. I’ve found that there are really two gay communities. One that is ridiculously promiscuous, and one that is not. Sort of the same as the straight world. I’d hate to say that all Christians are judgmental just because most of the ones I know happen to be. I’d say the same for the gay community. There are lots and lots of wonderful gay Christians you should meet. They don’t hang out at gay bars much, though.
2. This point has a premise that is suspect. I disagree that God tells us that homosexuality is wrong. I find lots of prohibitions against being a whore, or being adulterous, but I don’t see anything that says a loving gay relationship is forbidden. In fact, Jesus claims that some were made to be eunuchs by God.
3. I don’t think it is biblical to discuss the “moreness” of any sin. While you can certainly find clauses that say such a thing, if you hold on long enough to consider the whole cannon, rather than a constitutional approach to picking clauses out and claiming the law says such and such, I think the point is that sexual sins are not about sex at all, really. They are about what we would call today ” self worth”.
4. I’m not even sure where to start on this one. How wide would a culture have to practice homosexuality for it fit your description? Would Greco Roman times work? How about modern day Netherlands? Australia? All those places have lower AIDS cases than America or Africa. Note that in most of Africa, people rally against being gay. But, AIDS spreads like wildfire. In addition. The claim that all cultures find homosexuality morally wrong is simply not true. The are dozens of examples against that claim.
5. We all have our hidden sides. Most gay people I know are much more open about it than straight people. Would you contend that they lie instead? I know many gay people, myself included, who don’t fit your description. Perhaps you lived your gay life in dark alleys, I don’t know. I live my gay life in churches, thankful for the blessing God has given me.
6. Being under the care of a psychologist is a GOOD sign. We should all be so lucky as to have a professional to help us work out our lives. People who are marginalized need such help. It helps them to learn to stop listening to the hatred of others Nd listen to the love God wants to give to them. God truly loves you, too. Whereever you are and whatever you want to believe about yourself. There are no prerequisites for that love.
7. I certainly do see some of this, too, I must say. But, I am a younger gay man. I’m 31. And I see change in the gay community. There is the possibility of a normal life. I know you look one way and see a wall, and look the other and see a hard place. But, I tell you that there are people to help you. The gay couples my age are ridiculously normal. And the more society stops spewing hatred, the more chance our children will be open to normal lives for gay and straight people. There is hope. I will pray for you that God will open your heart to change.
MarkF – your comments suggest that you believe that homosexuals have the market on sexual depravity. Almost all of your comments could apply to many, many straight relationships. How many straight men out there are hopelessly into porn or visiting prostitutes on a regular basis? Out there having all the kinky sex their wife won’t give them? You think those guys are out there telling the truth about their hidden activities? (Re: #5) Ummmm, NO! My father cheated on my mother their entire marriage (with women and MEN by the way) and she cheated on him. He also did some other very bad things I won’t mention here. So please, let’s not be so righteous with your comments about “what you know” about those homosexuals. Courageous my ass… you’re just majorly pissed off for some reason.
This will be my first time posting here. I am a gay Christian male, work as an LGBT rights activist in Dallas and I think you are spot on! One problem I am always a little concerned by with many Christians is that they take these beliefs to the ballot box. Is this not a form of tyranny forcing others to live by, UNDER THE LAW, your own private beliefs? How is this any different than in Afghanistan where the Taliban made the women wear burkas?
I have seen a few posts on here suggesting that homosexuality might even be a choice.. this is a common argument we hear from many Christians.. and unlike a lot of LGBT activists, I will not argue that fact. Weather or not any of us were born this way or created this way or chose to do so after seeing two men holding hands is completely irrelevant to the conversation regarding equality and here is why; Christians have the full protections of the law. You cannot be fired for being Christian. You cannot be thrown out of the military if it is found out you happen to be a Christian. You cannot be denied adoption rights, the right to visit your life long partner in the hospital or to make life decisions for said partner. You cannot be denied housing based on your religion. You cannot be denied marriage or religious holidays.There are literally thousands of other legal protections that many Christians enjoy yet use the ballot box to ensure that gays and lesbians will NEVER have access to because homosexuality IS a sin and a CHOICE. Yes, it is nice to be a Christian and have the support of the constitution on your side.. it is important to remember however.. the next time you are at said ballot box.. that Christianity is also a choice. I know this as a Christian.. the choice I made to follow the lord. I find it hypocritical then to deny homosexuals the same rights as anyone else in this country.. even IF it were a choice (which most in their hearts know is NOT the case) it is a choice that brings no harm to anyone.
Bill: I’m very glad you’ve come to visit; I hope you’ll stay. Wonderful (and flattering: thank you) comment. You’ve already been great addition to this blog.
A few of the other posts I’ve written on this matter are:
http://johnshore.com/2008/04/16/if-my-gay-loved-ones-go-to-hell-im-going-with-them/
http://johnshore.com/2009/07/15/away-gay-christians-but-about-that-charitable-work-you-do/
http://johnshore.com/2009/04/29/the-confusing-power-of-the-devout-gay-christian/
http://johnshore.com/2009/09/16/helping-christians-be-bored-by-homosexuality-since-april-2007/
http://johnshore.com/2009/04/17/christians-minus-the-sex-is-gay-love-ok/
Sorry: that was more than a few. But … it’s something I write about sometimes. And will yet, I’m sure.
Hello. I have newly discovered John’s site from being an avid Huff Post reader. You will find me in commentary there as “Soulmentor” but I see that here you all appear to use your real names. How refreshing it was to read the first posting there that I saw of John’s that caught my eye….this one. I since saw his most recent and was so impressed that I clicked into the site. I hope you have space for a learned, I think, gay man with a deep spiritual attraction to religious issues, particularly as they relate to homosexuals. With a personal library on the subject longer than twice my arm span, I probably have an unofficial Master’s Degree in my head.
A bit of background: I was farm raised in SE Minnesota in a conservative Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, Republican family. College educated and now retired, I have been married, raised two successful military officer sons, divorced, gone thru ELCA and UCC memberships, am now a non practicing anything, spiritually oriented Democrat/Independent, gay man at peace with myself and God on the issues, a pronouncement that causes deeply conflicted, quizzical expressions from my evangelical type siblings who fear for my soul but nevertheless remain lovingly civil toward me. We can even talk about it….on rare occasions. I am going to forward this site link to them as I believe they are open enuf to actually pay some attention to it. Tho they speak in the language of “the Lord this”and “the Lord that”, maybe my comfort level with myself has given them pause to think at least a wee bit beyond their own certainties. For the past decade, I have been an “out” gay activist writer/guest columnist on gay issues for the local/regional newspaper here in Wisconsin.
I find this site and dialogue one of the most interesting and civilly respectful I’ve seen, which I credit directly to Mr Shore’s succinct, intelligent, sharply insightful and often witty manner of addressing some very serious issues that are currently causing damaging disunity within our society, not to mention the hysterical response of those who are getting their religious certainty ox gored.
I hope I may be able to offer something useful to the dialogue.
“…outside of the Biblical injunction against it, whom does homosexual love hurt?”
In all honesty, I believe homosexual love hurts the homosexual and anyone else that is close to, and cares about that person. Gay life is often predisposed to self-loathing, self-deception, depression, anxiety and lying. While it could be argued that some of these attributes are specifically caused by the hostility, discrimination, familial upheaval suffered by homosexuals in most societies—I say, from my own personal knowledge, that such is not always the case. Maybe even not OFTEN the case.
I would go further to say that homosexual love harms others because I believe it sets up an environment of division within society that is harmful. For instance, tax breaks and healthcare benefits awarded on the basis of a sexual relationships as opposed to a family relationships doesn’t seem fair. Ouch! I know I’m hitting nerves and making enemies. I realize two gay people see their “loves” every bit as much family as do straights. But in all fairness, I would also see my unemployed adult son or father living with me as family too. But it is doubtful my employer’s health benefits would be extended to my family…unless they were (1) not my family, and (2) my sexual partners. The film, “I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry”, brought that notion to light when two straight firefighters pretend to be a gay couple to qualify for health benefits. So hypothetically, my family would be denied healthcare based on what seems to be a sexist policy. Maybe I should consider the perceived inequity as a form of reparations to homosexuals for the lumps they’ve taken over history from their revilers. Anyway, there are my thoughts. Peace 2 all.
Oooh. I just realized this was a repost. No wonder there are sooo many responses
Tim: Not to play the devil's advocate here or anything, but, for my money, it's not gay life that is, as you put it, "often predisposed to self-loathing, self-deception, depression, anxiety and lying." I think ALL life is like that. All people are predisposed to those things, gay or not. You just wrote a (great) post on your own blog about your terrible divorce, through which you did and are still experiencing those very things, as the result of a failed relationship. Suffering COMES with love, yes? Period, I think.
And I'm terribly sorry, but I just couldn't follow your argument about the health benefits. Most people CAN add family members to their benefits coverage, yes?
Anyway, righto. Thanks, as ever, for writing!
One has to either accept the Bible or reject it. If you reject it, then you can dodge the fact that God says homosexuality is wrong. If you believe the Bible, then you have to reject at least the act of homosexuality (while never rejecting the person…I promise it's possible). It's really simple. Do you believe the Bible is God's word or not?
Dan: I never questioned whether or not the Bible was "God's word." All I said was … well, exactly what I said.
Bob-
I find it a very dangerous thing for a Christian to say whether or not someone else is a Christian.
Perhaps if we focused our hearts and eyes more on the grace and the love of Christ, we wouldn't be so eager to point out who is a Christian and who is not.
Peace.
You are just simply awesome.
Thanks, Stephanie. That's a great thing for me to hear this morning.
It has always been interesting to me, that people can make any excuse
to do just about anything. God's word is very plain about what you should and should not do. No-one is making anyone live alone, you do this you yourself. You can either choose to live as God/Christ wants you too, or not. You can't be gay/homosexual, and continue
have male-male,and female-female sex, and say you are a christian
at the same time. just like you are not be christian if you're commiting adultry,fornication,masturbation, sex with animals,,etc, because
being born again,washed in the blood,cleansed by the lamb of God
"Jesus Christ means change!!! If you dont change you are not a Christian. Yes anyone can and does sin, but you must change sinful nature through Christ. If you die unchanged/unrepented then you will not be saved from Hell. If you ask God to change your Gay nature,and repent of it, and truly want to give it up he will take that nature from you and give the nature that is what he wants for you, male-female. You never have to be alone you just have to choose Gods way. It is either his way or Hell. Gay life is wrong,as any other sin, you must ask forgiveness for it,then repent of it,and give it to God, as you would any other sin. We all sin b t we must ask and receive forgiveness, otherwise we die here.and in the here-after.
Gods plain word:
Do not lie with a man as
one lies with a woman;
that is detestable.
Men also abandoned natural relations with
women and were inflamed with lust for one
another. Men committed indecent acts with other
men, and received in themselves the due penalty for
their perversion." (Romans 1:24-27, NIV)
Im A homosexual thats also Christian and ive tryed hard to fight this battle it isent easy u just cant Not be Homosexual i bellieve i was born this way i dont agree with the life style but if i want to live according to the way God wants me to id be single my whole life id be lonley i would have to fight the feelings id get for someone
life wouldent be fun or enjoyible God feels in most love ppl feel in other kinds of love yes God's love is amazing but to never know how it feel to be loved and to love someone els is a huge sacrifice
im not sure im willing to make im just about annoyed of being single
i cant like guys wat so ever if i went out with one id have to force myself every day just to be with him its like asking a striaght person to turn gay it aint happening because u just cant like ur same sex
“What’s most important, what’s treasured? The faithfulness of your significant other, or the physical bonding? Just something to think about.” – Christopher
For me, being able to physically hold a partner and/or express my love for them – irrespective of whether or not we’re able to actually have sex – is what is important. For me sex is an added bonus, not the focus.
Something to chew on…
Situation #1 Hypothetically, you are in a committed relationship, your spouse or significant other & you have been together for years. One day you're in an accident, and left completely paralyzed. Your significant other stays by your side , however a few years years later you find out that he or she is, or has been in a sexual relationship, to fill the physical void caused by your paralysis. Now your partner, after being confronted, tells you that they do "love" you, but… they do have physical needs (which you can't fill), and is leaving you.
Situation #2 Hypothetically, you are in a committed relationship, your spouse or significant other & you have been together for years. One day you're in an accident, and left completely paralyzed. Your significant other still has physical needs but faithfully stays by your side.
What's most important, what's treasured? The faithfulness of your significant other, or the physical bonding? Just something to think about.
"I don’t consider friendship “demeaning” at all and, frankly, it’s surprising that you do. Personally, I value a good friendship much more than I do a romantic relationship, even though I am currently in one. Romance doesn’t always last, but with friends, with close friends, you can count that they will always be there." – Callista Hogan
I have to wonder why you find that surprising? After all, God has created well over ten billion human beings so far and each of them has been unique – each has a distinct set of strengths and weaknesses, needs and gifts.
My past experience of friendship, especially within the Church, has been pretty consistently transitory. In addition I have typically put a lot of effort into friendships for relatively little in return. I am a very physical, passionate and demonstrative person, and yet physical displays of affection are not something which are socially acceptable between heterosexual males or unrelated men and women. Consequently friendship is not something on which I am able to place much value – it is of little benefit to me.
Since my relationship with my family is poor, like many gays from Christian families, I do not have that option for the love and affection I want and need.
When it is worked at properly, romantic love fulfils all those needs and desires, and so much more besides – irrespective of whether sex is involved or not. Even in a celibate romantic relationship the degree of emotional intimacy and trust I have with a partner is far greater than what I can have with a friend.
"Who ever said that homosexuals can’t live in the hope of love?" – Callista Hogan
I was referring specifically to romantic love, which is typically involuntary, powerful, and focused on giving, rather than reciprocating, love. I think I've established that I do not think that platonic love can be substituted for romantic love in all, or even the majority, of cases. That is why I said that under your rules gays would be condemned to live in fear of love – the very thing which for others is a cause for hope, joy and celebration would for us be a cause for anxiety, despair and self-deprivation.
Tavdy -
I don't consider friendship "demeaning" at all and, frankly, it's surprising that you do. Personally, I value a good friendship much more than I do a romantic relationship, even though I am currently in one. Romance doesn't always last, but with friends, with close friends, you can count that they will always be there.
I'm not saying that a homosexual cannot love another in the same sex. Platonic relationships aren't demeaning at all, and platonic love is sometimes stronger than romantic love.
You said that "In essence, the heterosexual is free to live in hope of love, the homosexual is condemned to live in fear of it."
Who ever said that homosexuals can't live in the hope of love? They can yearn for love just as heterosexuals can. Platonic love is not a bad thing. A person can be entirely fulfilled in a platonic relationship, without any sexual relations. I'm not saying homosexuals should shy from love. I'm saying they should shy away from burning in their desires for another person of the same gender, just as heterosexuals should shy away from burning in their desires for someone they want to have sex with before marriage. However, I guess that's where you and I differ. You feel as if romantic love is the epitome of happiness in a human life, whereas I believe that platonic love and love for God often is more important than romantic love.
"You say that Christians are asking homosexuals to live alone until they can renounce their sin. That is true – but isn’t the same thing applying to those who partake in premarital sex? We are asking heterosexual people who want to be close to that other person to wait until marriage – just as we’re asking homosexuals to go against their desires." – Callista Hogan
I think you missed a point I made early in my first post on this topic:
"As a single heterosexual you would presumably live with the hope that you might some day meet your soul-mate, secure in the knowledge that the union would be blessed and honoured by your friends, family and faith. For a homosexual who views gay sex as sin the prospect is not merely a life of loneliness and isolation, but one lived with the underlying fear that, should they ever meet their soul-mate, they will have to choose between their love and Christ.
In essence, the heterosexual is free to live in hope of love, the homosexual is condemned to live in fear of it."
Trying to compare a gay person to a straight one in this way simply does not work. Whichever way you look at it, one is free to live in hope of love, the other condemned to life in fear of it. To leave in fear of such a basic human need and emotion as love, and all the while lack the hope that the fear and loneliness will end, is the worst form of torture you can ever experience.
To offer something like friendship as an alternative is demeaning and, in time, fosters resentment, jealousy, self-hatred and depression. It is one of the reasons why many gay people end up rejecting Christ and the Church.
John,
I don't have much to add, because so much has been said. But I did want to sincerely thank you for your honesty and thoughtfulness on this subject. It's so rare to find an Evangelical who understands the implications of the typical, conservative teachings about the way homosexuals should conduct themselves. Even in the comments, I've seen several (well-meaning, I'm sure) Christians who minimize the lifelong loneliness that conservative interpretations subject people to. It only goes to show that they agree with your original conclusion: that to force life-long loneliness on someone is quite cruel and inhumane indeed. So instead of acknowledging how horrible the situation is for homosexual who seek to follow God (in a conservative sort of way, that is), they try to argue that this loneliness doesn't happen for whatever reasons (i.e., "Jesus is your best friend, and he's all you need", "You can get married to someone of the opposite sex one day after God 'changes' you, and thereby have the intimacy and companionship you desire", etc.) Those of use who've spent a good deal of time thinking about these things, and experiencing life understand quite well what's at stake with traditional understandings of Scripture on homosexuality: it is a sentence of loneliness and misery. And we don't have to go far to see the evidence for it in science, psychiatry, psychology, and personal anecdotes (author Philip Yancey does a great job of talking about the homosexual struggles of another great author and theologian – Henri Nouwen – and how horribly lonely he was until the day he died.)
Your current line of thinking is spot on, John. Keep working with it, and wrestling with it. You epitomize compassion and grace in doing so.
Blessings,
Darren
I have to say I disagree.
I, being a straight conservative Christian, believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, there are some things that I disagree with.
You say that Christians are asking homosexuals to live alone until they can renounce their sin. That is true – but isn't the same thing applying to those who partake in premarital sex? We are asking heterosexual people who want to be close to that other person to wait until marriage – just as we're asking homosexuals to go against their desires. There is a difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals, and that is that God merely considers homosexuality a sin, whereas God states that we can't go and have sex with the first heterosexual person willing to.
Those heterosexuals that want to have sex before marriage are surely lonely too – they don't have that physical contact they so desire. This is exactly like homosexuals, who don't have the physical intimacy with the person they desire to have it with.
It's not about being lonely, and it's not that homosexuals must be lonely until they forsake their sins. It's about getting closer to God and doing what he wants us to do.
After all, how can we be lonely when we have God on our side?
And I have one more point: we're not prohibiting homosexuals to have friends. Sure, they might not be able to have physical intimacy, but then again, so many people, whether straight or gay, are not able to have physical intimacy… and that's where friendship comes in. In a way, friendship is more important than a romantic relationship. So we're saying that, yes, perhaps homosexuals might be romantically lonely for a while. But they have so many things on their side, God included, helping them until they are no longer lonely.
You just don't grasp it, do you? Let's try this. Heteros, alone. Homos, alone. Heteros alone should not have sex. OK. Homos should never have sex. I hope you noticed the omission. Heteros should never have sex until married. Homos should never have sex. Heteros should never have sex until married but can look forward to getting married and having sex. Homos cannot get married (to each other) and must never have sex and must have no hope of having a sexual love relationship. God or Jesus will fill in for that loss or "sacrifice". THAT is the big lie. Even the most ardent single Christian cannot deny that God or Jesus will not come down from wherever and lie beside you and lovingly touch and embrace you. No power of imagination can make you feel that unless you have gone totally bonkers….or dreamed it, as I did, just last nite. And it wasn't Jesus, unless he took the form of a very handsome man. It's been awhile and it felt wonderful……and it wasn't the first time.
I truly don't mean to denigrate when I say that those of you who spout that stuff are just so clueless. Why? Do you ever seriously ask yourselves ….WHY?
Other than God or the Bible says so, because I don 't believe that. I have read it and I can't see it the way you do. You will suggest it is because I don't with to.
Well, I suggest you see it as you do because you wish to.
If it is true that I see only what I wish, at least I can explain to myself why.
thanks, tavdy.
I was awful confused by your remark. kept thinking: did I say that? glad I didn’t…!
"I don’t see anywhere in my comment #91 the thought that someone who disagrees with that interpretation is unsaved…
…I also never said that I thought this was the only valid interpretation." Longing for Holiday
That's my bad – I guess I'm so used to people who hold that particular view being closed-minded to other interpretations that I reacted to it automatically. I don't think that was arrogance on my part – just bad habit. Either way, I'm sorry for what I said in post #92.
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