The firmly established default Christian proclamation on the “question” of homosexuality is that being inclined toward it is no different than being inclined toward any other kind of sinful behavior.
“We’re all sinners,” runs the refrain. “We all struggle to overcome our sinful ways. Homosexuality is a sin. Just like all of us must strive to control our sinful behavior, so the homosexual must strive to overcome his or her sexual predilection. Even if a person is born gay or lesbian — even if homosexuality is genetic — a homosexual must still strive to overcome the ungodly behaviors toward which he or she is inclined, the same as we all must overcome our lower nature in order to realize our highest.”
That proposition is so logically flawed it should embarrass any Christian who hears it, much less says it. It completely ignores the crucial, absolute difference between homosexuality and the other sins people typically struggle against committing, which is that committing virtually every kind of sin except homosexuality objectively and tangibly hurts someone. If you lie, steal, cheat, rob, have an extramarital affair, be too greedy, be too selfish, waste your family’s money, and/or do any other kind of sin you can think of, someone, in no uncertain or abstract terms, gets hurt. That rule never changes, and has as much to do with theology or philosophy as a brick to the head has to do with architecture.
But you take the Bible out of the equation, and what grounds is there for determining that homosexuality is wrong? Whom does such love hurt? When two men are affectionately holding hands, who is getting hurt? When two women are snuggling together on their couch to watch TV, who is getting hurt?
Virtually all other behaviors Christians typically consider sinful can be readily understood as objectively and clearly wrong without any reference to the Bible. But you take the Bible out of a Christian’s hands, and he has no arrow left to shoot at the gay man or lesbian. He’s without recourse, justification, argument. Without his Bible to quote from, he has virtually nothing upon which to base his claim that homosexuality is wrong.
A dim-witted child could see that homosexuality isn’t the same as other kinds of sins. It’s distinctly, absolutely, categorically different. It’s like placing a robot in a pen with a bunch of farm animals, and then claiming that what makes the robot a farm animal is that a book you believe in says that robots are farm animals. That’s cool for you. But it doesn’t change the objective, empirical fact that robots aren’t farm animals. You’ve made the mistake of claiming that a subjective truth of yours is equal to an objective truth of everyone else’s in the world. It’s not. A robot shouldn’t be classified as a farm animal, because it doesn’t meet the first, most important criterion of being a farm animal, which is being an animal. Similarly, homosexuality shouldn’t be classified as a sin, because it doesn’t meet the first, most important criterion of being a sin, which is manifestly causing harm.
I’m a Christian, and no two ways about it. But I can’t be a Christian so severely lacking in logical powers that I don’t notice the difference between homosexuality and all the other kinds of sins anyone’s always doing. The latter hurts people; the former doesn’t. I can’t help that; and I’d certainly rather not shame myself by attempting to argue it.
Also, it’s high time Christians were honest about the fact that asserting that homosexuals should stop acting homosexual necessarily means asserting that they should spend their lives never knowing the loving intimacy with another that straight people enjoy and know to be the best and richest experience in life. Asking a homosexual to give up homosexual love isn’t at all like asking him to give up booze, or greed, or any other such negative thing. It’s asking him to give up love.
If I were gay, and I lived as most Christians would prescribe for me as ideal, I would live alone. I’d wake up every morning next to no one. I’d never hold hands with anyone. I’d never kiss or be kissed by anyone. I’d never cuddle up with anyone. I would not know the profound pleasure of every day growing older with anyone. For me, remaining as sinless as possible would mean never knowing love of the sort that all straight people, Christian or not, understand as pretty much the best thing life has to offer.
I hear a lot of Christians asserting that gays and lesbians should stop acting like gays and lesbians. But I never hear any of them saying the unavoidable follow-up to that — saying what that actually means — which is that gay and lesbian men and women should spend their lives never experiencing what people most commonly mean when they use the word “love.”
When, all along, the Bible repeatedly, emphatically, and explicitly tells us that God is love.
Something is seriously wrong somewhere in the mix between Christians and Christianity. (And it’s spelled Paul — whom I love, but about whom we really should be more clear. But that’s for another post.)
I want to be the very best Christian I can. And that means being as scrupulously honest as I can. And on the topic of homosexuality, that means admitting that being gay is not like any other sin, and that the Christian proscription of homosexuality is nothing less than a call for anyone who is gay to live their entire life never experiencing the physical expressions of love that all of we straight people happily accept as one of the very best things about being alive. Those two things are true, no matter how many logic-challenged pastors daring to call themselves compassionate Bible lovers claim they’re not.
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![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Are you saying that, even if a gay person genuinely believes in Christ and claims his salvation, if they disagree with you on this particular point they are not saved?
I’m not saying that your interpretation is necessarily wrong but (as I noted before) I do think that for any human to declare that their interpretation is the only one that’s valid sounds arrogant and intolerant.
Tavdy: I don't see anywhere in my comment #91 the thought that someone who disagrees with that interpretation is unsaved. Not at all. And I made the point of saying you might not disagree because I knew you wouldn't, otherwise, that scripture would undermine your other arguments. I also never said that I thought this was the only valid interpretation. I happen to believe it's accurate. In fact, it would be silly for me not to land somewhere. We all have to come to our own positions regarding what interpretations we agree with. You have certainly done so with the scriptures you cited. Was that arrogant of you? I doubt you think so. You've come to an interpretation you believe is accruate and correct. That's not arrogant, but common sense. Arrogance would be forcing a view down someone's throat and belittling the other person for their opinion.
Tavdy: A quick note. You took my male and female comment out of context. Here is the entire quote: Mark 10:1-12: “God’s plan..from the beginning of creation… ‘He made them male and female’…and the two are united as one.”
The point was that from the beginning, apparently according to Jesus in this passage, marriage (one flesh, and in Mark’s context, that is marriage) was originally created for a man and a woman. He is saying this in the context that in the OT, easy divorce, polygamy, etc., were allowed, but that these were not part of the original plan. Obviously from what you said, you disagree with this interpretation, but I wanted to set the record straight.
This is going to be almost unbelievably long, but since it’s taken me almost a day to read through all these and formulate responses (in between various DIY jobs) so I hope you’ll forgive me if it’s all in one post.
“Is being alone so as not to sin supposed to be different for a single heterosexual? If I were “homosexual” and Christian, wouldn’t I be bound by the same laws of God? My God tells me I cannot be sexually intimate with another person until I was married to same. – FreetoBe
A lot of people seem to be focussing on this point, but not actually hitting the full magnitude of the issue for gays who believe gay sex is sin.
As a single heterosexual you would presumably live with the hope that you might some day meet your soul-mate, secure in the knowledge that the union would be blessed and honoured by your friends, family and faith. For a homosexual who views gay sex as sin the prospect is not merely a life of loneliness and isolation, but one lived with the underlying fear that, should they ever meet their soul-mate, they will have to choose between their love and Christ.
In essence, the heterosexual is free to live in hope of love, the homosexual is condemned to live in fear of it.
“If it were illegal for us to marry, am I not also commanded to follow the laws of the country where I live, as long as those laws do not contridict the laws of God?” – FreetoBe
Does a government have the right to sanction a religious institution? In the case of polygamous faith groups, notably certain Islamic and Mormon sects, what’s important isn’t whether or not the government recognises each marriage, but whether or not God does. The same is true of any marriage, irrespective of who is married to whom. Gays aren’t campaigning for the right to religious marriage, which they already have (well, anywhere but Texas) but for the right to the civil benefits of marriage afforded by secular authorities – state, federal or other governments.
“I think, as a group of believers, we have missed the point. The sin/(or whatever you want to call it) is not the point. The point is that sin separates us from a relationship with God because he is unable to share the same space, if you will. with sin. Thus when we commit a sexual sin, we create a barrier between ourselves and God and our relationship becomes hindered. This is resolved by repentance as I am sure you are aware. I think the problem for too long for Christians has been that we are guilty of 1) labeling homosexuals and 2) focusing on the sin (act) instead of creating relationships with them and sharing how any sin carries the consequence of separation between man and God.” – Dominique
The problem with this is that most gays don’t, won’t and (in many cases) can’t see gay sex as sin, and have no interest in dialogue with anyone who tells them otherwise – a consequence of living in a subculture defined, in large part, by rejection by family, friends and faith. Those few who do regard it as sin figure that (to paraphrase C. Jay Cox) “since they’re going to Hell anyway they might as well take the scenic route”. To simply stop actively condemning gays, as you suggest, isn’t enough – as long as a majority (or even a vocal minority) of Christians view gay sex as sinful gay people will never feel welcome in the Church, and will remain unreachable to God’s love and forgiveness.
To say that it will take divine intervention to breach this barrier would not be speaking metaphorically.
Following on from this, I think that there is a good point made here:
“Every sin I commit today will be intentional. It will require me to intentionally ignore God no matter how small the sin. I will choose activities, thoughts and words that will not glorify Him.” – ric booth
In Matt 22, Jesus responds to the question “which is the greatest commandment in the law?” with the following:
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.“ – (King James Version)
In other words, everything has to by judged by those two commandments – every action, rule and scripture.
Wilfully sinning is one obvious example of something which does not show love to God – but is the sin the action or, as ric booth suggested, is it the wilful disobedience required to perform the act? If you don’t view an act as sinful, and therefore don’t consider yourself disobeying God by doing it, do you still sin by doing so?
Certain systems of hermeneutics, particularly those which focus on the socio-cultural contexts in which texts were first written, can result in a Biblical interpretation which does not condemn gay sex within the context of a loving, monogamous relationship (see below). If a person reads the Bible and comes to such conclusions are they any less of a Christian? And if, having done so, they perform an act they do not consider sinful but that another person does, whose interpretation of the Bible is relevant?
“Gods word clearly says:“ (et al) – Amanda
Of the Biblical verses typically used to condemn gay sex can almost universally be translated to condemn exploitative gay sex, rather than consensual and/or monogamous gay sex.
The verses in Deuteronomy (22:5 & 23:17) 1 Kings (14:24, 15:12 & 22:46) & 2 Kings (23:7) explicitlyrefer to the religious practices of the Canaanites 3000 years ago, which included the use of male temple prostitutes who were treated as property in a manner similar to the way women were at the time, and who would even dress and act as women during certain ceremonies. While gay sex is involved, it is not consensual
The verses in Leviticus (18:22, 20:13), when read in the original Hebrew, refer to men having sex with men in the way they would have sex with a woman. The cultural context of such a statement implies exploitative, non-consensual sex. The scriptural context of Leviticus 18:22, shortly after a list of prohibitions on the exploitative use of female relatives for sex, and between prohibitions on Canaanite religious practices (child-sacrifice and bestiality), supports this interpretation in light of the Canaanite use of male temple-prostitutes. This is further supported by the fact that the word translated as abomination, toevah, means “ritually unclean” and is used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to Canaanite religious practices, including Deuteronomy 7:25 and 2 Kings 16:3-4.
Likewise the verse in Romans (1:26) could refer to Roman religious and cultural practices, which included sexual orgies and (as shown below) the sexual exploitation of slaves by masters. In addition some scholars think the passage (Romans 1:18-32) was not in the original letter Paul wrote but rather a later addition, due to significant lexical differences between the passage and the rest of Paul’s writings.
The verses in 1 Corinthians (6:9-10) is not easily translated, but the two relevant words in Greek – malakoi and arsenokoitai – could refer to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and male slaves which were common practice at the time the passage was written. As the with Old Testament passages above, an exploitative sexual relationship is sinful irrespective of the genders involved.
The verses in 1 Timothy (1:9-10) features arsenokoitai again, flanked by pornois (prostitute) and andrapodistes (slave-dealer). This could refer to the Roman practice of slave-owners specialising in slaves used as prostitutes, in a manner similar to the way modern-day pimps use addictive drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine, to “own” prostitutes. Again, another exploitative relationship.
The verses in Genesis (19:4-5) 1 Peter (2:6) and Jude (1:7-8) all refer to the infamous “rape of the angels” in Sodom; and the passage in Judges (19:22) is very similar. Each case involved both rape and promiscuity – both of which are condemned throughout the Bible. That angels are (by definition) not human could be why (in some translations) the writer of Jude refers to lusting for “strange flesh”.
“God’s plan..from the beginning of creation… ‘He made them male and female’” – Longing for Holiday
Given the fact that God chose to create humanity with two distinct genders it would have made little sense for the first two humans created to be of the same gender. For reasons of simple biological reproduction the first two humans HAD to be of opposite genders, one female, one male. Consequently using that as the template for all permissible human sexual relationships seems somewhat limiting.
“There are no mistakes in God’s word.” – Amanda
True, but there are mistakes in fallible human interpretation of that word. For any human being to declare that their interpretation is the right interpretation, indeed the only interpretation, sounds to me like pride and intolerance, both of which (as I’m sure you’d agree) are condemned in the Bible.
“We have but to look down towards our genitals to understand God’s design is for men to become one with women and not with other men.” – Russell Roberts
If this is the case, how come receiving anal sex pleasurable? If you don’t believe me, think about that little burst of pleasure you get when you pass wind – it’s the same nerve endings. Nerve-endings are surprisingly specialised things, with those that feel pain quite different from those that feel pleasure – so why else would God put those particular nerve endings in and around the rectum?
“To encourage someone to act in accordance with God’s design is not cruel but the most humane thing we could do.” – Russell Roberts
To force your views upon someone else without having made the slightest attempt at understanding their point of view is dehumanising.
John: I've been keeping up with some of the comments here, and though you agreed with my last post, I still keep going back to your title: "It is being lonely." Really, it doesn't have to be. You agreed with my last comment that being married (and having sex) isn't an option for many heteros either, and it can be a great blessing. I must say that, other than having a 24 hour friend around (my husband), for most of our marriage, I have been far lonelier than when I was single and in a great community. Even when I lived in the former Soviet Union (when it was such) as a missionary and was often very alone (not just by myself, but in a strange culture who's language I hardly understood), I very strongly felt God's presence. Finally (this isn't directed to you, but a general observation), regarding the argument from scripture that homosexual activity is ok as long as it's in a long term monagomous relationship, I go back to Jesus' own words in Mark 10:1-12: "God's plan..from the beginning of creation… 'He made them male and female'…and the two are united as one." It is absolutely not unloving to say, if you are follower of Jesus, trust that when He lays out the definition of marriage, He is loving us. When, by definition (and, of course, other scripture), adultery, sex by anyone other than a man and woman within marriage, even certain types of divorce, are outside of His best, these commands are borne of love. Yes, that means that those of us who do not marry a person of the opposite sex will deny ourselves sex and the particular companionship of marriage. [Again, let me state as I did earlier, this applies only to those who believe the Bible is truth from God] But what blessings come from the denial!! What intimacy with the savior when we say no to what we want and yes to what we don't want because we trust that He has a better way, a way that we don't always "get." We share in His sufferings. And, don't you know, one day, any loneliness or sadness or struggle with the flesh that seems to render the Bible meaningless, all will pass away, along with our tears, and we will stand before our Lord, free from the ravages of sin and death, utterly fulfilled, and never again lonely!
John
Thanks for your enlightened observations on homosexual love not hurting anyone.
This is one of the core concepts of the site “Gay and Christian” (www.gaysandslaves.com). The site shows that the Bible approves of homosexual orientation (same-sex attraction) and it does not condemn any form of sex between men except for male-male penetration.
The site also shows that men penetrating men is okay if no one is harmed. Full details, including the Biblical basis of this reasoning, can be seen on the site.
I think that Wordsseldomsaid has left the conversation. But I hope that he is still checking in.
WSS, you spoke of “many former homosexuals have left the lifestyle”. I neither doubt nor disagree with you (although the use of the term “many” is a bit questionable – a best estimate is less than a few thousand).
I know with certainty that there are individuals who have “walked away from homosexuality”, in the sense that they do not engage in any sexual, social, or identity aspects of homosexuality. Generally, these folks are called “ex-gay”.
And I know that while the vast majority of ex-gays live celibately (or try), a few are married. But based on their statements, few if any could be considered to be heterosexual. Their behavior has changed and their self-label has changed but they continue to find themselves attracted to the same sex.
You state that you are formerly gay.
You are the person that John has written about with such compassion. You seek to live a life consistent with how you believe God has directed you even though it is most likely that this also means giving up on love.
And I commend you for your dedication. I wish you much success. I hope that you find celibacy to be a life that brings you peace and contentment.
Personally, I think that you’d be happier if you did not set reorientation as a goal – as best I can tell it just doesn’t happen. Nonetheless, continue to seek God.
It may be the case some day that you become discouraged. You may find that regardless of your faith and your efforts and your programs and your devotion that your attractions STILL are towards the same sex. (It isn’t denying God’s power to admit that this is often the case).
Should you find yourself disillusioned by reorientation efforts, PLEASE recall one thing: you don’t need to walk away from God to be gay. You can still – like some I know – recognize your orientation and live a pure life. Or you may – like many I know – come to believe that God has created for you a lifemate and that in His infinite wisdom that lifemate happens to be the same sex.
But whether you go on with ex-gay efforts or not, please keep God in your life.
I wish we could reverse the gay – non-gay thing for about 50 years so Leif and other anti-gay Christians could really know by experience what they're talking about.
If you guys had to live with the callous, mean-spirited, scripture-twisting, non-Christian attitudes and the ripped from their context proof texts that gay and lesbian Christians live with all our lives, you might begin to exhibit genuine compassion instead of merely lip service.
You hold up incestuous polygamists like Abraham and Sarah and polygamists like Gideon the great Judge/Deliverer of Israel as great heroes of the faith.
You look to King David as a great type of Christ and seem to ignore the fact that he had an intimate relationship with Jonathan (characterized by King Saul in I Samuel 20:30 with a Hebrew vulgarism which indicates Saul thought Jonathan was sexually intimate with David).
Does it ever occur to you that God called these folks to His service while they were living in incestuous and/or polygamous and/or same sex relationships?
The Holiness Code clearly forbids brother-sister relationships yet God affirmed, blessed and used these people and encourages us to view them as heroes of the faith.
The Holiness Code just as clearly prohibits same sex relationships which worship Molech and his fertility goddess consort Ashtoreth, Lev 18:22 and 20:13. But not by any stretch of the imagination do those verses condemn committed, faithful, intimate, non-cultic male-male and female-female relationships.
Has it ever occurred to you that God also calls gays and lesbians and affirms and blesses us in our committed, faithful, intimate, non-cultic relationships just like he called Abraham and Sarah (the brother-sister team) and Abraham and Hagar and Keturah and the concubines and Gideon and David and Jonathan?
The nation of Israel sprang from the polygamous family of Jacob, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah.
How can any Christian understand God's blessing on Israel without acknowledging that God did NOT enforce the standards of the Holiness Code on Jacob and his four wives (two of whom were sisters, a sexual relationship expressly forbidden in the Holiness Code, Lev 18:18).
Rick Brentlinger
http://www.gaychristian101.com
John, I am a Christian who doesn't believe that God condemns homosexual intimacy in and of itself; I don't believe that God calls gay people to celibacy. We clearly disagree on that point, but I'm not here to debate it. Rather, I wanted to be another person to thank you for a refreshingly honest and reflective take on the nature and ramifications of being gay, Christian, and celibate.
I think much of the frustration felt by Gay christians as they interact with a largely anti-gay Christian community is, first, the downplaying of the difficulty of life-long celibacy. Many Christians seem to throw around the expectation of celibacy so casually without appreciation of what that means for the individual, or they try to conceal it by using vague phrases like "freedom from homosexuality."
The second is the almost obtuse act of dismissing homosexuality as, "just like any other sin, and we're all sinners." Such a dismissal shows nothing but a lack of willingness to understand what a gay Christian is experiencing, and the implication that resisting one's homosexuality is no different from resisting the temptation to steal is belittling to that struggle.
You've identified these two points of frustration and you've called them out for what they are, and I thank you for it. Peace,
Chris
Hi Chris and John. I believe the main reason we have such religious controversies in the first place arises from the human need to have answers to the human condition. That, combined with an innate knowledge that we don’t know all the answers creates a need for absolutes and where they can’t be found, they must be invented.
We are the only living creature (so far we don’t know enuf about apes) that knows we will die. Fear of death, the great unknown, along with that vague longing for something greater than ourselves, prompts religion, and religion without absolutes doesn’t answer our needs. Some of us learn to live with the understanding that we can’t and don’t need to know all the answers. But it seems a huge percentage of humanity can’t live with that.
The impulse to insist that others believe as we do is merely an attempt to assure ourselves that our own beliefs are the correct ones. That becomes a desperate need in many who then try to impose their beliefs on others. The growing confidence of homosexuals in their own selves and, horrors, in their confident professions of Christian or spiritual faith, reminds others of their deep sense that they really don’t KNOW the truth and to quell their fear, they insist all the harder. Belief is not knowing, it is only telling ourselves that we know, sometimes to such a great extent that we really do think we know.
Remember, even Jesus did not answer when asked, “What is truth?” Ever wonder why?
Amanda,
Lev 20:25 You shall distinguish between the clean animal and the Unclean, and between the clean bird and the Unclean; you shall not render your soul abominable through such animals and birds,and through anything that creeps on the ground, which I have set apart for you to render unclean.
This places the eating of pork on the same level as the commision of homosexual acts.
Additionally, the bible requires you to celebrate Pesach, Succot, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur, at a *minimum.*
Lev 19:26 You shall not eat over the blood, you shall not indulge in sorcery and you shall not believe in lucky times.
I assume you buy kosher meat (which has had the blood drained and removed) and do not ever consult your horoscope?
Lev 19:19 … And a garment that is of mixed fibers shall not come upon you. (Any cotton wool blends?)
Basicly, there are a heck of a lot of laws that christians do not follow, many just as serious as the law against homosexual acts. (Note, there is not law against homosexual attraction, only against actual fornication. Also note that all Capital crimes in jewish law require 2 eye witnesses uninvolved in the crime. So, unless you are performing these acts in the town square…)
But thats okay, because most Christians *aren't* children of the covenenant. Unless they have been circumcised and dedicated to Torah, they are not required to follow any of the laws, at least under the strictures of the torah, unless they are residing in a jewish settlement or home. (None of the laws in the torah regard what a non-jew can do in their own home. Not even the injunctions against homosexual acts.)
Great, thoughtful and inspiring post, John!
Amanda: Don’t be quoting Bible verses at me. I’m not well enough versed in every aspect of the Good Book to give you a legitimate argument for or against anything. All I can tell you is that I think you need to have a little more compassion for others who are not like yourself, and less fire and brimstone, as if your opinion is the ONLY opinion.
The Bible is a collection of stories, eyewitness accounts, parables, etc. that supposedly are God’s Word. But, just like the children’s game Telephone, the original intent of any Bible verse is lost in the many translations of the Holy Text. How does anyone know what is in the Bible now is what the author orginially wrote two millenia before?
Now, before you start calling me a heretic or a non believer, I must tell you that I believe in God, Jesus Christ as my Savior, and in a good deal of what the Bible says. However, God also gave me free will to ask questions and learn things for myself. One of the things I’ve learned with this gift of free will and a somewhat competent mind that you have to love others as you love yourself. It doesn’t matter one iota whether they are straight, gay, black, red, brown, or pink with purple polka dots. Of course, there are a few baddies along the way, but for the most part, people are good. Even those who are not like I am (i’m straight, white and Catholic, BTW).
Stephanie: I remember that song, and yes, that is how I feel. We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord, Buddah, Allah, Yahweh, etc.
Thanks so much for an inspiring blog, that speaks truth to one of the biggest debated issues in the Christian culture. I admit I used to take the "love the sinner, hate the sin approach" about this issue… until I said a significant prayer one day to help me understand this better. I prayed that God would bring some homosexuals/lesbians into my life, because I couldn't believe something that I had no understanding of. The best way I know to understand something is to build relationships with people.
Well, years later, I have many friends with different sexual orientations, and I can see how ignorant and self righteous I used to be. Most of my friends are spiritual, and seek to do the right thing. I don't see their sexual preferences, as being the deciding factor on their values or belief in God. I am becoming a little more hypersensitive to the ridicule and arrogance by other Christians who want to make this about morality, especially when it seems to be done more out of ignorance and fear. I don't know all the answers, and don't pretend to be. We had a movie in Portland, called "The Bible tells me so", which shed some valuable insights into the scriptures many people use to condemn homosexuality. Several of these were taken out of context with many other rules that we no longer find relevant today.
I am greatly disappointed that I have had several situations in the church or ministry where this particular topic ruled me unfit, because I didn't agree that homosexuality was a sin. I believe that it would be unhealthy for me to start deciding for others what is right and wrong, especially when things seem really unclear to me. I can lead people to seek and watch for a spiritual source, and give them love, but find that I am rarely in the right mind to become a impartial judger of others, and to force them to do something they don't believe in.
Thank you, Elissa. The world needs more like you. You are truly the "salt of the earth." God bless and continue to enlighten you.
Blindness, Deafness, Autism, Rape, Incest, AIDS, Castration, Female Mutilation, Lynchings, Cancer…There are things worse than living a celibate life/never marrying. With all compassion and love, don't confuse this fallen world for heaven. Our purpose for being is not happiness. Christ, who alone was sinless sufferred more than any human being ever will and to truely know Him & His ressurection power Paul stated that we must also know the fellowship of His sufferring. I'm just thankful that He is the great I AM and that He can be to me whatever I need Him to be. His grace is sufficient.
To say that we are what we are because God made us that way, and therefore we are okay the way we are is a weak argument. If that were so, then why did God become a man and die to "SOZO" us? Fact of the matter is that we're all a teardown, and He needs to start over.
Another argument I disliked was that it is easier for God to heal my intimacy issues than it is for Him to make a gay man straight. Why doesn't He just turn ME into a porpoise? Because He made me a man. I struggle with that manhood because it is what I am called to do. Life is a road of discipleship. Some things get knocked off, and many things get added on. We are better humans for it.
I have many gay and lesbian friends that I deeply love and appreciate. I love them. And I pray my life brings healing, and a deeper desire to know Him who is able to do above and beyond all that we could ever ask or think.
I also love the idea that God is not through speaking to us. Just when we think we have Him figured out, we are blown away. The Job seat is an uncomfortable throne.
Do not be threatened by those who seek to bring words of correction. For whom the Father loves, He chastens. And, do not be threatened by those who seek to invite all who thirst for righteousness to come, regardless of their issues.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and your neighbor (whether straight or gay) as yourself. The rest is just details.
God's love; the love that offered Christ's blood to atone for our sins, is Agape love. It is sacrificial love that puts God's will first, and desire's to do what is in the best interests of others. Gaining mastery over our base nature that is self-centered & yearns to sin is fundamental to spiritual growth & is really the only way that we can manifest God's love. The Bible never categorizes sin, so homosexuality isn't a "special sin". The wages of all sin is death. Homosexuality, as all sin, is in direct defiance to God's perfect order. When we allow our lusts to become our god & disregard inconvenient truths we can excuse all sin and harden our hearts to a HOLY & LOVING God.
That was suppose to be the gifts weren’t so bad</em. Okay. The decoupaged wedding invitation glued on a plaque was so bad but the rest were sweeeeeet!
Longing: I agree with what you've said absolutely.
Free and John: For those of us who are female (conservative Christians, and who (so it seems) overwhelmingly outnumber males, we often feel just as "stuck" in our singleness as one homosexually inclined who decides not to enter into an intimate homosexual marriage. I was in my late 30s when I FINALLY married and have many, many committed Christian girlfriends who will likely never marry and experience the intimacy of marriage. But, Paul tells us that single folk are better able to spread the gospel because they aren't tied down to families. The point is, being single – not necessarily out of choice – can be a wonderful life, can lead to greater service (I know this from experience), can lead to deeper intimacy with Jesus (ask Paul who by all accounts was single by the time he wrote Philippians), and is really a calling (ask Jesus).
Amanda: Have you ever had any good friends who were homosexual? GOOD friends, I mean: friends who mean as much to you as anyone you’ve ever loved.
If you haven’t, then I’d like to suggest that you’re simply not in a position to understand or empathize with what’s at stake in the ongoing Christian “debate” about homosexuality.
John,
I recall that my wife went to a gay wedding a few years ago because she was invited. She resisted the chance to over think her choice and get too weighed down by ethical, religious or moral considerations. Looking back, I believe the decision was one to celebrate two happy people who wanted to celebrate their love together with their friends. She had a good time too.
Bruce, they have Jesus. He is the most precious relationship anyone could ever have and His love for us is far beyond the love of another human being. We need to be careful not to encourage others away from the truth. There are no mistakes in God’s word.
The mistake is believing that the Bible, literally and in its entirety is God's Word, with no considerations for cultural context or political/social agendas of the writers, or for the centuries of re-interpretations to the extent that what you are reading now is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, ad infinitum, of the original writings which were, in turn, written by ancient scribes taken from oral tradition, and that the first writings that even remain were were written in Sanskrit or some such language from bottom to top, right to left without punctuation, paragraph or sentence structure, and all that had to be figured out by those ancient scribes who may have had their own notions of what was meant by a given phrase or word.
Oh please. One looks on in wonder.
but the bible isnt always right. I remember a part in the bible about incest, and thats not right in reality. Wish I wasnt in the middle of class or I’d go look it up.
John,
This has been one of the best comments sections of yours I've read. I'm still chewing on the comments and going through mind-altering moments (no – change in POV, not drugs).
The song referred to above is one of my favorites – "Get Together" by The Youngbloods. Google the lyrics.
Peace.
-Sam
It amazes me that we can just simply sum up God's creation plan to men's genitals, women making babies and who should where the pants. I think our God is bigger than that and perhaps, just maybe, He had a bigger plan than that.
Amanda-I have to ask you the same questions you asked John. What are your intentions with your comments? What is the motive in your heart? Are you drawing people closer to Christ with the things you are saying?
I'm also curious, why are you so interested in someone's sin? (As you call it.)
Here is a question-Why are we so concerned with homosexuals and not with those who serve different God's? I mean we are quick to pull out the scripture rifle and fire "It's sin, sin sin and you're going to hell, hell, hell. But it also states in scripture that we are to have no other Gods and if we break any of those commandments, we have sinned. So what is the REAL reason we are so concerned with gay Christians?
And why in the world do so many people think that gay folks haven't read the bible and don't know scripture?
Why is it so wrong for people to test and question scripture in some folks eyes? Are we suppose to have "majority rules and popular belief theology"?
A song keeps going over and over again in my head. I'm sure many of you know it. "Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now."
It may not be in the bible, but I think it's pretty biblical and perhaps should be practiced more often by us Christians.
"To encourage someone to act in accordance with God’s design is not cruel but the most humane thing we could do."
How sad. Try explaining that to deeply closeted teenagers with same-sex attractions. You'll just confuse, shame, and anger them for really no reason. It's this type of rhetoric that leads to unnecessasry and premature suicides. I don't understand how you don't see how truly inhumane this is.
Consider that the world's leading health, medical, and pyschological associations would vehemently disagree with your position. Are they lying or wrong?
You can't possibly know the mind of God. You can't possibly expect that the Bible is clear on these issues considering the time and place in which it was written. Plus, I would imagine you don't speak Greek (I do). The Bible writers were referring to pedophilia and not necessarily what 2 mature men or women do in private in committed, loving relationships. Finally, this is a secular country. If your religion forbids something, then don't do it. Meanwhile, why deprive millions of gay couples of the happiness you enjoy?
I didn't read all the comments to this may or may not have been addressed. You posed the question of who is hurt by homosexual relationships. I would argue that both participants in a homosexual relationship are 'hurt'. N.T. Wright teaches an idea that I think is helpful. He frames sin as de-humanizing behavior. If we consider that Jesus came to demonstrate what it means to be a truly human, we can understand sin in terms of behavior that falls short of God's design for creation.
Now if we follow Paul's argument in Romans One, one thing becomes perfectly clear. We have but to look down towards our genitals to understand God's design is for men to become one with women and not with other men. The same principle applies to women. As Paul explained, homosexuality is actually the result of judgement, of God having given someone over to a disqualified mind.
To encourage someone to act in accordance with God's design is not cruel but the most humane thing we could do. We tend to think of love and intimacy in terms of a strong feeling of affection towards another human but that is not the picture that scripture presents. Love is a determination to look out for someone else's best interest and it is certainly in the best interest of a homosexual to abandon that lifestyle.
Far from asking homosexuals to live without intimacy or in physical and emotional isolation, God is calling all of us to live in accordance with his design and to experience the fulfillment of a truly human life as demonstrated in the life of Jesus Christ.
Just my two cents.
John, thank you. Thank you for your openness to question and test things in regard to this subject. It is refreshing to see a Christian (who is not gay), take a different approach to this subject.
Instead of the constant "Let me tell you what is so wrong with homosexuals", you're no afraid to ask the question " What is so wrong with homosexuals?"
It takes courage to ask questions like this and look further in to it. I think many are afraid to ask that challenging question, for one reason or another.
I think sometimes as Christians, we act like Pharisees with machine guns who fire out "You're wrong, wrong, wrong and you're going to hell, hell, hell." I don't think Jesus asked us to do that. I'm certain He got on to the Pharisees for doing that very same thing. What's worse is on top of doing this, we say we are “speaking the truth in love”. We have a lot to learn about love.
The part that bothers me the most about this debate is we as the loving Christians we are to be, will recite scripture to people and tell people we believe the word of God is flawless yet we will go to Red Lobster, eat shellfish and cook dinner for our families on the Sabbath and say it's ok. We will fire out that homosexuals "pick and choose" what scripture best suits their life but don't we all do that? We sound so very hypocritical.
I question the motive in our hearts if we continue to take the approach to this subject that we do. The behavior many of us take on in regard to homosexuality is the same behavior many took on when we as Christians were not allowing women to teach in the church, when we were justifying slavery and banning rock music and dancing. Were we watering down the truth then when we began to look at those things differently too?
I think part of the problem with this subject is many of us look at homosexuals as disgusting. The image we have had planted in our heads about the typical lesbian or gay man is most likely incorrect. I think some of us have the grave image of a gay person being one has no morals, who doesn't understand what it means to be Christ like, who has sex in dark alleys with anyone and when the after bar party starts, it's orgie time. Much like the image that is given to us in the bible about temple prostitutes. It's this very image that instills fear in us about our kids getting close to those who are gay. Sad to say, I've known some gay folks like that and I've also known some straight folks like that.
Until we are willing to admit that we were taught wrong, we will probably never be able to even take a different approach to this subject. We were taught wrong folks and that's hard to admit and accept.
I am standing and applauding with Shush and Chuck. Thanks John for taking a different approach to things.
"No matter the moral, ethical or cultural context, it is always wrong to steal or lie, because doing so always hurts another person."
I thought this comment was interesting, but it's not necessarily "true" so I wasn't totally in agreement with your comparison. Isn't this what makes the "white" lie so acceptable, because it's not REALLY hurting anyone? Or the loyal, hardworking employee who takes a few pens home from work. No big deal, right? Just a thought …
My point being, in any moral, ethical or cultural context, it's wrong to sin. Period. It doesn't matter who it does or doesn't hurt.
Also – the essentialist gender thing ("sex roles") is a reflection of what people understood at the time. God's creation is a lot more interesting and complex than that.
Amanda,
Actually, there are no mistakes in God's creation. It's not enough to read those scriptural passages, you must also understand who was speaking, who they were speaking to, when, where, what the context was, and what the speaker's objective was. In other words, you must use discernment.
Obviously, much of what is in the Bible is metaphor. Other passages are an account of a tribal people trying over time to maintain its identity under the constant threat of assimilation by other cultures. It happens that many of those cultures had some form of gender variance as part of their religious practices. You (as many others do, and have in some traditions for a long time) are just reading it literally, seemingly without any contextualization at all.
I understand that this approach to Scripture is all that many people have been taught in the tradition within which they were raised, and that the notion of trying to analyze and understand it might seem like debate to you, and might even be threatening, but I assure you that the tradition of such conversation goes back much farther, having its roots in Talmudic study. There is no need to place "scare quotes" around the term Christian when referring to people engaging in discernment – in fact, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't. We are all part of the body of Christ.
My view is that God is certainly still speaking, and working through people as always. Why would God be finished? That seems to me to be a very human idea. Recall that prophets were always the ones who made everyone else uncomfortable.
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