Comments on: Christians: When It Comes to Homosexuality, Man Up http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/ Trying God's patience since 1958 Wed, 23 May 2012 04:13:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Calypso http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-1/#comment-29357 Calypso Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:33:53 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29357 This is a Rhetorical Q isn't it? This is a Rhetorical Q isn't it?

]]> By: alison http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-2/#comment-29205 alison Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:35:08 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29205 Cavalcade, perhaps I can relate to you in a small way (not completely, because I am hetero-sexual). I was raised to believe, and many people I respect teach convincingly from the Bible that a divorced person cannot remarry. I believe that is true in some, but not all, circumstances. Given that, I realized at the age of 32 I would probably spend the rest of my life alone - not entirely alone, I had two small children, daughters. And I find my relationship with them very fulfilling. But now they are grown and I face the possibility of once again being alone. Like you, I haven't taken care of myself, partly because of the reason you started, and partly because I didn't want to be attractive to anyone and get into a situation I couldn't handle. I can say that my life is very fulfilling, and if the right guy came along now, I would have to think long and hard - not just if remarriage is something I can morally do, but also, do I really want to give up the freedom of this life I have created for myself. I watch The Office a lot, and in a recent episode, Michael was dating a married woman. At the end of the show after much turmoil and indecision he said (not word for word). "I realized I could do the right thing, or I could be happy, and I decided to do the right thing." Life is not easy. There is no guarantee anyone would ever want me, even if I felt that I could remarry. The same is probably true for you. I am on your side as you struggle to do what is right. And I would never condemn you if you chose happiness instead. I can't condemn you because (1) I have never been tempted in that area, and (2) because I don't know what I would do if that opportunity presented itself to me. God be with you. Cavalcade, perhaps I can relate to you in a small way (not completely, because I am hetero-sexual). I was raised to believe, and many people I respect teach convincingly from the Bible that a divorced person cannot remarry. I believe that is true in some, but not all, circumstances. Given that, I realized at the age of 32 I would probably spend the rest of my life alone – not entirely alone, I had two small children, daughters. And I find my relationship with them very fulfilling. But now they are grown and I face the possibility of once again being alone. Like you, I haven’t taken care of myself, partly because of the reason you started, and partly because I didn’t want to be attractive to anyone and get into a situation I couldn’t handle. I can say that my life is very fulfilling, and if the right guy came along now, I would have to think long and hard – not just if remarriage is something I can morally do, but also, do I really want to give up the freedom of this life I have created for myself.

I watch The Office a lot, and in a recent episode, Michael was dating a married woman. At the end of the show after much turmoil and indecision he said (not word for word). “I realized I could do the right thing, or I could be happy, and I decided to do the right thing.” Life is not easy. There is no guarantee anyone would ever want me, even if I felt that I could remarry. The same is probably true for you. I am on your side as you struggle to do what is right. And I would never condemn you if you chose happiness instead. I can’t condemn you because (1) I have never been tempted in that area, and (2) because I don’t know what I would do if that opportunity presented itself to me. God be with you.

]]> By: Talia http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-1/#comment-29200 Talia Tue, 10 Aug 2010 03:41:35 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29200 There is nothing to support your claim that Mary Magdelene was "caught in sexual sin." Luke 8.2 and Mark 16.9 both say that Jesus cast demons out of her--an act of healing, not forgiveness. There is nothing to indicate that the woman "caught" in adultery in John 8 (although, of course, no sexual partner was accused), whom Jesus instructed, "Go and sin no more," was Mary Magdelene, and nothing to indicate that she was a prostitute. And rather than serving as the subject of a quick object lesson and then being dismissed, Mary Magdelene played a valuable role in the early church. There is nothing to support your claim that Mary Magdelene was “caught in sexual sin.” Luke 8.2 and Mark 16.9 both say that Jesus cast demons out of her–an act of healing, not forgiveness. There is nothing to indicate that the woman “caught” in adultery in John 8 (although, of course, no sexual partner was accused), whom Jesus instructed, “Go and sin no more,” was Mary Magdelene, and nothing to indicate that she was a prostitute. And rather than serving as the subject of a quick object lesson and then being dismissed, Mary Magdelene played a valuable role in the early church.

]]> By: Melissa http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29197 Melissa Tue, 10 Aug 2010 03:11:12 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29197 MarkF - your comments suggest that you believe that homosexuals have the market on sexual depravity. Almost all of your comments could apply to many, many straight relationships. How many straight men out there are hopelessly into porn or visiting prostitutes on a regular basis? Out there having all the kinky sex their wife won't give them? You think those guys are out there telling the truth about their hidden activities? (Re: #5) Ummmm, NO! My father cheated on my mother their entire marriage (with women and MEN by the way) and she cheated on him. He also did some other very bad things I won't mention here. So please, let's not be so righteous with your comments about "what you know" about those homosexuals. Courageous my ass... you're just majorly pissed off for some reason. MarkF – your comments suggest that you believe that homosexuals have the market on sexual depravity. Almost all of your comments could apply to many, many straight relationships. How many straight men out there are hopelessly into porn or visiting prostitutes on a regular basis? Out there having all the kinky sex their wife won’t give them? You think those guys are out there telling the truth about their hidden activities? (Re: #5) Ummmm, NO! My father cheated on my mother their entire marriage (with women and MEN by the way) and she cheated on him. He also did some other very bad things I won’t mention here. So please, let’s not be so righteous with your comments about “what you know” about those homosexuals. Courageous my ass… you’re just majorly pissed off for some reason.

]]> By: Derek http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29193 Derek Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:40:53 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29193 John thank you so much for this post. As you can see from some of the replies posted here, many gay people are justifiably wary of Christians who say "hate the sin and love the sinner". When fundamentalists insist that gay people are perverted, desperate, miserable etc., it is so incredibly arrogant and dismissive to think that all gay people suffer these things without any mention of the fact that MANY straight people fall into these categories as well. Promiscuity, unhappiness, loneliness, pain, and "dark degrading and soul numbing sexual practices" are as frequent among straight couples as gay, and to link these traits only with homosexuals betrays a prejudice that causes many gays to justifiably fear Christianity. The kind of commentary that says gay people are dangerous, sinful. duplicitous and riddled with disease, especially when expressed without any hesitation by Christian leaders, can be directly linked to physical harm to gay people. I recently heard a gay man speak of how, when he told his Christian father that he was gay, his father told him that he would rather his son was dead. Many gay teens attempt suicide because of the shame and guilt they fear about their orientation, and who is telling them that being gay is shameful? I believe that Jesus' message was one of inclusiveness. As a gay Christian, who has been in a monogamous relationship for 17 years, now legally married in a Christian Church, I KNOW that gay people can find full affirmation and acceptance within Christianity. The kind of bigotry that is expressed by some Christians is more akin to fundamentalists of other religions who see no problem with executing gays, non-virgins etc. It has no place in a true Christian community. Thank you again John. John thank you so much for this post. As you can see from some of the replies posted here, many gay people are justifiably wary of Christians who say “hate the sin and love the sinner”. When fundamentalists insist that gay people are perverted, desperate, miserable etc., it is so incredibly arrogant and dismissive to think that all gay people suffer these things without any mention of the fact that MANY straight people fall into these categories as well. Promiscuity, unhappiness, loneliness, pain, and “dark degrading and soul numbing sexual practices” are as frequent among straight couples as gay, and to link these traits only with homosexuals betrays a prejudice that causes many gays to justifiably fear Christianity. The kind of commentary that says gay people are dangerous, sinful. duplicitous and riddled with disease, especially when expressed without any hesitation by Christian leaders, can be directly linked to physical harm to gay people. I recently heard a gay man speak of how, when he told his Christian father that he was gay, his father told him that he would rather his son was dead. Many gay teens attempt suicide because of the shame and guilt they fear about their orientation, and who is telling them that being gay is shameful? I believe that Jesus’ message was one of inclusiveness. As a gay Christian, who has been in a monogamous relationship for 17 years, now legally married in a Christian Church, I KNOW that gay people can find full affirmation and acceptance within Christianity. The kind of bigotry that is expressed by some Christians is more akin to fundamentalists of other religions who see no problem with executing gays, non-virgins etc. It has no place in a true Christian community. Thank you again John.

]]> By: Nathan http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29190 Nathan Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:35:20 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29190 I'm with you, Mark. Not on your overall contention, but that I will respond briefly, even though the points could be expanded upon greatly. Also, thanks for numbering your points. It makes a response easier. 1. I've found that there are really two gay communities. One that is ridiculously promiscuous, and one that is not. Sort of the same as the straight world. I'd hate to say that all Christians are judgmental just because most of the ones I know happen to be. I'd say the same for the gay community. There are lots and lots of wonderful gay Christians you should meet. They don't hang out at gay bars much, though. 2. This point has a premise that is suspect. I disagree that God tells us that homosexuality is wrong. I find lots of prohibitions against being a whore, or being adulterous, but I don't see anything that says a loving gay relationship is forbidden. In fact, Jesus claims that some were made to be eunuchs by God. 3. I don't think it is biblical to discuss the "moreness" of any sin. While you can certainly find clauses that say such a thing, if you hold on long enough to consider the whole cannon, rather than a constitutional approach to picking clauses out and claiming the law says such and such, I think the point is that sexual sins are not about sex at all, really. They are about what we would call today " self worth". 4. I'm not even sure where to start on this one. How wide would a culture have to practice homosexuality for it fit your description? Would Greco Roman times work? How about modern day Netherlands? Australia? All those places have lower AIDS cases than America or Africa. Note that in most of Africa, people rally against being gay. But, AIDS spreads like wildfire. In addition. The claim that all cultures find homosexuality morally wrong is simply not true. The are dozens of examples against that claim. 5. We all have our hidden sides. Most gay people I know are much more open about it than straight people. Would you contend that they lie instead? I know many gay people, myself included, who don't fit your description. Perhaps you lived your gay life in dark alleys, I don't know. I live my gay life in churches, thankful for the blessing God has given me. 6. Being under the care of a psychologist is a GOOD sign. We should all be so lucky as to have a professional to help us work out our lives. People who are marginalized need such help. It helps them to learn to stop listening to the hatred of others Nd listen to the love God wants to give to them. God truly loves you, too. Whereever you are and whatever you want to believe about yourself. There are no prerequisites for that love. 7. I certainly do see some of this, too, I must say. But, I am a younger gay man. I'm 31. And I see change in the gay community. There is the possibility of a normal life. I know you look one way and see a wall, and look the other and see a hard place. But, I tell you that there are people to help you. The gay couples my age are ridiculously normal. And the more society stops spewing hatred, the more chance our children will be open to normal lives for gay and straight people. There is hope. I will pray for you that God will open your heart to change. I’m with you, Mark. Not on your overall contention, but that I will respond briefly, even though the points could be expanded upon greatly. Also, thanks for numbering your points. It makes a response easier.

1. I’ve found that there are really two gay communities. One that is ridiculously promiscuous, and one that is not. Sort of the same as the straight world. I’d hate to say that all Christians are judgmental just because most of the ones I know happen to be. I’d say the same for the gay community. There are lots and lots of wonderful gay Christians you should meet. They don’t hang out at gay bars much, though.

2. This point has a premise that is suspect. I disagree that God tells us that homosexuality is wrong. I find lots of prohibitions against being a whore, or being adulterous, but I don’t see anything that says a loving gay relationship is forbidden. In fact, Jesus claims that some were made to be eunuchs by God.

3. I don’t think it is biblical to discuss the “moreness” of any sin. While you can certainly find clauses that say such a thing, if you hold on long enough to consider the whole cannon, rather than a constitutional approach to picking clauses out and claiming the law says such and such, I think the point is that sexual sins are not about sex at all, really. They are about what we would call today ” self worth”.

4. I’m not even sure where to start on this one. How wide would a culture have to practice homosexuality for it fit your description? Would Greco Roman times work? How about modern day Netherlands? Australia? All those places have lower AIDS cases than America or Africa. Note that in most of Africa, people rally against being gay. But, AIDS spreads like wildfire. In addition. The claim that all cultures find homosexuality morally wrong is simply not true. The are dozens of examples against that claim.

5. We all have our hidden sides. Most gay people I know are much more open about it than straight people. Would you contend that they lie instead? I know many gay people, myself included, who don’t fit your description. Perhaps you lived your gay life in dark alleys, I don’t know. I live my gay life in churches, thankful for the blessing God has given me.

6. Being under the care of a psychologist is a GOOD sign. We should all be so lucky as to have a professional to help us work out our lives. People who are marginalized need such help. It helps them to learn to stop listening to the hatred of others Nd listen to the love God wants to give to them. God truly loves you, too. Whereever you are and whatever you want to believe about yourself. There are no prerequisites for that love.

7. I certainly do see some of this, too, I must say. But, I am a younger gay man. I’m 31. And I see change in the gay community. There is the possibility of a normal life. I know you look one way and see a wall, and look the other and see a hard place. But, I tell you that there are people to help you. The gay couples my age are ridiculously normal. And the more society stops spewing hatred, the more chance our children will be open to normal lives for gay and straight people. There is hope. I will pray for you that God will open your heart to change.

]]> By: A'isha http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29192 A'isha Mon, 09 Aug 2010 18:39:31 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29192 There are far too many comments for me to read at this time, although I do believe I read a good sampling of them, including the response by MarkF. It's to Mark that I respond. In your first section, you state "Homosexual practice tends to be dark, degrading and soul numbing." I think you're overgeneralizing based on your personal experience. I would be what most would call bi, although I consider myself a lesbian. I should also say that I've only been a Christian for the past 5 years although I was raised in a Christian environment. Based on MY experience, homosexual practice is in no way dark or degrading. It was loving, nurturing, and caring. The couple serious "straight" relationships I had were much darker than I would ever imagine with another woman. Your statement was all-inclusive, exactly like those made by prejudiced, bigoted people of any flavor. In 3, you say that sexual sins defile us more than any other sin based on Paul's writings. Since becoming a Christian I do believe this to be true, but probably our definition is different. Sexual sin is sex outside of a committed union, be that hetero- or homo-sexual. I no longer have casual sexual relationships but do hope to have a committed relationship sometime in the future. I wonder how, in your 4th paragraph, you can say that "non-Christian cultures have found that the practice of homosexuality is destructive?" On what do you base this opinion? Most advanced nations seem to be moving into the direction where gay marriages are becoming legal, so are all these nations being destructive in doing so? At one point you say that homosexuals will not be honest with straight people. Just to set the record straight, yes, many of us will be. I have only ever hidden things I'm ashamed of. I'm not ashamed of who I am and don't make it a habit of doing things worthy of shame. You state: "Homosexuality is a path to pain on earth." and "All the “gay” couples I know have either stopped being sexual with each other, or “play” with others." I'm very sorry that YOUR experiences brought you so much pain. Can you see that possibly there was more going on than just being gay? Obviously the people you associated with weren't very well adjusted either because they "all" stop being sexual or seek sex outside of their committed relationships. Well-adjusted adults who are capable of commitment are capable of remaining sexual with only their partner whether they are straight or gay. I find most of your statements based solely on experiences that were hurtful to you. Please don't put your experiences on me, because it just ain't true. Based on MY experience John is spot on, as usual. There are far too many comments for me to read at this time, although I do believe I read a good sampling of them, including the response by MarkF. It's to Mark that I respond.

In your first section, you state "Homosexual practice tends to be dark, degrading and soul numbing." I think you're overgeneralizing based on your personal experience. I would be what most would call bi, although I consider myself a lesbian. I should also say that I've only been a Christian for the past 5 years although I was raised in a Christian environment. Based on MY experience, homosexual practice is in no way dark or degrading. It was loving, nurturing, and caring. The couple serious "straight" relationships I had were much darker than I would ever imagine with another woman. Your statement was all-inclusive, exactly like those made by prejudiced, bigoted people of any flavor.

In 3, you say that sexual sins defile us more than any other sin based on Paul's writings. Since becoming a Christian I do believe this to be true, but probably our definition is different. Sexual sin is sex outside of a committed union, be that hetero- or homo-sexual. I no longer have casual sexual relationships but do hope to have a committed relationship sometime in the future.

I wonder how, in your 4th paragraph, you can say that "non-Christian cultures have found that the practice of homosexuality is destructive?" On what do you base this opinion? Most advanced nations seem to be moving into the direction where gay marriages are becoming legal, so are all these nations being destructive in doing so?

At one point you say that homosexuals will not be honest with straight people. Just to set the record straight, yes, many of us will be. I have only ever hidden things I'm ashamed of. I'm not ashamed of who I am and don't make it a habit of doing things worthy of shame.

You state: "Homosexuality is a path to pain on earth." and "All the “gay” couples I know have either stopped being sexual with each other, or “play” with others." I'm very sorry that YOUR experiences brought you so much pain. Can you see that possibly there was more going on than just being gay? Obviously the people you associated with weren't very well adjusted either because they "all" stop being sexual or seek sex outside of their committed relationships. Well-adjusted adults who are capable of commitment are capable of remaining sexual with only their partner whether they are straight or gay.

I find most of your statements based solely on experiences that were hurtful to you. Please don't put your experiences on me, because it just ain't true.

Based on MY experience John is spot on, as usual.

]]> By: Scott http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29191 Scott Mon, 09 Aug 2010 18:36:06 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29191 @mark f, you just sound lonely and scorned, it's pathetic... John, thank you for the insight... @mark f, you just sound lonely and scorned, it's pathetic…

John, thank you for the insight…

]]> By: alison http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-29189 alison Mon, 09 Aug 2010 18:34:02 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-29189 I see your point, John, but what you are missing is that Christians that know what the Bible says think they are being kind and generous by saying it's just like any other sin. They're trying to be nonjudgmental. I think that's important to remember. For people who don't believe the Bible, hence, don't believe it is a sin, this sounds insulting and intolerant. But only half of the commandments are about doing harm to someone else. The rest are about harming God. And some of the things, like envy,jealousy, greed, only harm oneself, not anyone else. I see your point, John, but what you are missing is that Christians that know what the Bible says think they are being kind and generous by saying it's just like any other sin. They're trying to be nonjudgmental. I think that's important to remember. For people who don't believe the Bible, hence, don't believe it is a sin, this sounds insulting and intolerant. But only half of the commandments are about doing harm to someone else. The rest are about harming God. And some of the things, like envy,jealousy, greed, only harm oneself, not anyone else.

]]> By: Margaret Evans http://johnshore.com/2008/04/15/homosexuality-isnt-stealing-or-lying-but-it-is-being-lonely/comment-page-4/#comment-21768 Margaret Evans Fri, 14 May 2010 22:12:20 +0000 http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=327#comment-21768 MarkF, what an astonishingly courageous post. I'm sorry no one has responded. I hope you find peace and love. MarkF, what an astonishingly courageous post. I’m sorry no one has responded. I hope you find peace and love.

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