Yesterday in a coffee shop I totally eavesdropped on a conversation between an Evangelizing Christian (“EC”) and a guy who Wasn’t Having Any (“WHA”). Here’s the gist of their exchange:
EC: But you can’t get into heaven unless you’re a Christian.
WHA: Why not? I’m a good guy. I lead a moral life. Why should I be kept out of heaven?
EC: Because in the Bible, Jesus says, “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
WHA: But that doesn’t say you have to be a Christian in order to get into heaven. That just says that Jesus decides who does and doesn’t get into heaven. “You have to go through me to get into heaven” isn’t the same as, “You have to be a Christian to get into heaven.”
EC: Yes, it is.
WHA: No, it really, really isn’t. If Christ had meant, “Only Christians get into heaven,” he would have said that. But he doesn’t say that in this quote—which is weird, since that’s the quote Christians invariably rely upon as their ultimate proof that only Christians get into heaven.
EC: But that’s what, ”No one comes to the Father except through me” means. It means you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior in order to gain eternal life with our heavenly Father.
WHA: Well, that may be what Christians have decided that quote means, but that’s not what the words of that quote actually say. All Jesus actually says there is, “You have to go through me to get into heaven.” In other words, “When it comes to admission into heaven, I am the decider.” It doesn’t say anything whatsoever about what you have to think, believe in, or be before you can make the cut. It doesn’t say anything beyond that Jesus will determine who is and isn’t acceptable to him. That’s it. There’s nothing there to indicate that Jesus would necessarily refuse a Muslim or a Jew into heaven. That quote only refers to the process by which people do or don’t gain entry into heaven. It doesn’t stipulate any kind of qualifications for getting in at all. And for Christians to assert that that quote does mean what its actual, literal words clearly don’t support it meaning, isn’t good for Christians. It can’t help but make them seem exceptionally dense, willfully irrational, or lying. Either way’s not exactly an inducement to join their club.
Quite the speech! It worked, too: My evangelizing brother in Christ shut down like a Hummer dealership.
After the Christian effected an exit, I started up my own conversation with Mr. Articulate Atheist. I liked him; he was a decent, forthright guy. In the course of our talk, I promised him that here, on my blog, I would do as I have done, and recount his conversation with the proselytizing Christian. Furthermore, I promised him that I would ask whether any of my readers would be willing to take a stab at refuting his assertion that “No one comes to the Father except through me” doesn’t, in fact, say anything whatsoever about whether or not one has to believe in Christ in order to get into heaven.
If you’re inclined to answer this earnest seeker, he’s listening.
Follow-up post: Mr. Wasn’t Haven’t Any Responds to Christians.
See a related post of mine, “What Non-Christians Want Christians to Hear,” here.
Just out: UNFAIR: Why the “Christian” View of Gays Doesn’t Work (softcover edition; Kindle edition; NookBook edition). Find me here and on my Facebook page.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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The more I read the discussion above, the more I think "Calvinism."
God will touch the hearts of who He will touch when He's ready to do so.
What's that scripture? No one can see the kingdom unless he's been born again? God touches, makes new, the eyes see, the heart can then respond.
Those who see: love each other and your neighbor and your "enemies."
I like this.
Suk: That's a great metaphor, about God being the chairman, and Jesus the CEO. That's really good. I'm stealing it. AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!
bwwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Hi guys. Why act like children. Why some religions have this obsession with heaven and eternal life. Heaven to some is a five star hotel where you don't have to pay the bills. Eternal life? Couldn't that be boring? Imagine that you are able, thanks to modern medicine, to live for 500 years. Will you welcome it. Not me. Ugh! I will be fed up. Why think of God, who is the creator of all the universes right from the smallest atom to the huge planets, complex structures, as a cigar chomping chairman of a corporation called heaven, with his only begotten son acting as the CEO and also door keeper. I thought Peter had the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Does a worm need the adoration of man. Does omnipotent God need the adoration of puny man. There is an outer world – a sprawling universe. Similarly there is an inner world. Why don't you first understand the inner world of man before venturing to explore the outer world. To say man was born in sin is itself a sinful statement. When the secrets of the inner self is revealed to you the mystery of the entire universe will also be revealed to you. When the haze of ignorance is removed truth shines forth.
The problem is not what Christians have "decided" the verse means, the problem is that the word "Christian" could be defined in different ways. Let's drop the "Christian" conversation completley. Jesus said he was the only way into heaven, and we know from reading the rest of scripture that Jesus has forgiven the sins of those who confess their sins and ask him for forgiveness. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins; he has redeemed us, or bought us back. In Revelation (20 I think) Jesus will admit into heaven those whose names are written in the book of life. Called them Christians, born-again, the saved, whatever you will. Those who have accepted Christ he will go to heaven, and Muslims have not. They do not believe God has a son. You be honest, moral, good hearted, outgoing, etc. and not have accepted Jesus Christ as you savior, and you will die and go to hell. That is what Jesus is saying.
The bible for sure doesnt say only Christians will go to Heaven but the truth is the one to lead us to His Father is Jesus Christ.We can only be led to the Father if you identify yourself with the Man(God in this case) who is the key to Heaven.As it is even in the corporate world one has to be identified with the company inorder for them to do business and access any information about the company.The name Christian is drawing from a Group of believers at Antioch according to the book of Acts who lived their lives like Christ hence the name.However if one accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour then Jesus Christ will decide who goes to heaven.If a moslem,hindu,earthiest or whoever accepts him then they are identified with Him as Christians.
@ncarnes
Another point on scientific corroboration of the supernatural or religious narratives…
Many believe that science has their eyes closed to the possibility of your (or any other god). The reality is, though, that any scientist who properly documented and CONFIRMED (lets say) the efficacy of intercessory prayer, would be showered with awards and notoriety.
"You know, you have a remarkable insight here. You've shown some important observational skills and the ability to think critically about what the text actually says.
"I haven't met many folks like you. I wish there were more, but our churches are sadly filled with lots of folks who don't really give much thought to what the Bible actually says.
"Let's take those observational skills and think through what Jesus meant when he uttered the words recorded in John 3:18."
@Skerrib
I put "the golden rule" in quotes to use it as a metaphor. The "do unto others" premise was documented at least a millenia before biblical times. All indications are that the core trait of reciprocal altruism (which is the fundamental base of "do unto others") is identified in many other species.
It is a reasonable argument that all the holy texts took their best stab at documenting morals and ethics and proper conduct given their knowledge of the day. "Do unto others" is innate in [most] us…and would have to be for us to thrive as a species.
@ncarnes
Real scrutiny of prophecies has shown they are sufficiently vague that any of them could have come to pass myriad times through history. Some have been documented to have been recorded after their occurrence! But nothing I say could convince those that hand their hats on the prophecy card. Google “debunk bible prophecies” to get some flavor as to where many people rank prophecies as proof. Now if there had been one tiny nugget of unambiguous insight (i.e. the size of the universe, our place in it, the makeup of our sun…THAT would be pretty impressive.
All I am saying is that those that look at the universe, our world, and the life on it with our best techniques come away with less and less reason to credit the supernatural for anything in our observable universe. There may have been some intelligence that got the top spinning (the big bang) but all observations would indicate that intelligence has not been involved since.
If you are referring to the ID movement; I have no problem with ID being discussed in schools. I just shouldn’t be in the science classroom (philosophy maybe, mythological studies even better). And don’t forget our Constitution that mandates no favoritism toward any one religion. If Christian narratives were taught in public schools, then every other religious narrative would have to be taught in schools…even Scientology. Let religious indoctrination be left to those that are not receiving my tax monies.
I have no problem appealing to something that I believe exists. I am not wired such that I can appeal to the non-existent. That said; it should be know that I used to be a believing Christian who DID pray in times of difficulty. At times, it did seem to help, but other stress-relief methods work just the same…be they meditation or praying to Hindu gods (if that is your culturally dominant religion). Since Hindus and Christians receive the same comfort and equivalent results from mutually exclusive gods, wouldn’t it seem another factor is in play? Check out http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
I don’t claim that there is no source for the experiences. I (and others) claim that they are electrochemical processes in the brain as opposed to supernatural. With targeted electrical stimulation of the brain, we can reasonably reliably induce 1) the sense of another presence (culturally prevalent deities, aliens, or ‘others’), 2) the sense of ‘oneness’ with the world (interrupting the sense of self), 3) disembodiment or floating, 4) the “feeling of knowing” something absolutely. (On the latter; read the book that I review here: http://fvthinker.blogspot.com/2008/03/book-review-on-being-certain-believing.html . )
As per above, I don’t discount the experience, but we have evidence to discount the claimed source.
It is not realistic to, in this forum, educate you on the scientific method or just what ‘theory’ and peer-review are. I will merely say that, to my mind, the scientific method is more about eliminating wrong answers than find some precise final answer to a question. Do you believe that water is made up of two parts hydrogen and one part water (H2O)? Do you believe that atoms are made up of protons and neutrons surrounded by a cloud of electrons? Do you believe that gravity is a real force? These are all theories backed up by crushing amounts of evidence and we live our lives as though they are fact. Evolution by Natural Selection is in that same pantheon of theories where multiple fields of science converge on the same answer. Evolution is a theory; but just as we live as though gravity is a fact, we can live as though evolution is a fact. It is that well supported. I wish I could spend more time on this, because it apparent there is much you don’t know about science.
This, ncarnes, is where it gets nasty. Let me start with a couple of points of language. I will be using the terms ‘ignorant’ and ‘stupid’. The former (‘ignorance’) is a resolvable problem. In days of old, prior to the discovery of microorganisms and their role in disease, many thought that sickness was caused by demons and spirits. They were ‘ignorant’ of bacteria and virus. For lack of another explanation in those darker days, it was not unreasonable to attribute illness to the supernatural. We, as a species, seem predisposed to create supernatural actors to fill the gaps in our knowledge. With the advent of the microscope and further investigation, we now know that colds and flu and myriad more physical maladies are the direct result of these microorganisms. Someone of average intelligence, when exposed to new facts and evidence can work that into their knowledge base and become less ignorant. If someone, today, were to claim your sniffles were caused by demons (assuming they had been exposed to western culture, media, and science) you could rightly consider that person to be ‘stupid’ (or otherwise mentally impaired). Keep this distinction in mind.
I shall be blunt here about why you find the ‘angry atheist’. This is where the vitriol that is spewed from the pulpit shows itself as a cancer on society. It would seem to me, from what you are saying, you subscribe to the theistic dogma that morality and ethics can only exist because of your god…that, without god, there is no right and wrong, there are no caring impulses, that the non-believer, necessarily, cannot have a reference for right and wrong. If my assessment is accurate, you would be ignorant of many compelling studies that showed the trait of reciprocal altruism to exist in many other species. You would be ignorant of the “Madison monkeys” trials that showed monkeys preferred starvation to having their lab-mate receive a painful shock. You would be ignorant of the Creighton University study (a Christian university) that showed (in the MOST flattering interpretation) that there is no correlation between level of religion and societal ills in ‘prosperous democracies’. Indeed the societies with the fewest societal ills (as defined by the university) were the Nordic countries that are almost universally non-believers. You would be ignorant of the Canadian University study that compared devout believers to active non-believers in measures of education, racism, and much more. Non-believers bested believers on all but one count (charitable giving, but we don’t have clubs). I could go on. If you are not exposed to compelling contrary information you are ignorant. If you are exposed to compelling contrary information and you don’t incorporate it, you are stupid. If you are only willing to seek out that which affirms what you already believe, then you are not work conversing with.
Now the part the makes my blood boil. There are many that will claim loudly and publicly that, without a divine set of moral rules, the non-believer cannot be moral that “people should be able to rape, kill” in the non-believers world. These people will demonize a segment of society on nothing by evidence-devoid, vacant dogma. These people are willing to hate other people because their preacher, pastor, mullah, priest told them to. Are YOU willing to hate people because someone told you to? Are YOU willing to hate someone with no evidence that they deserve it? I certainly hope not. All that being said; I respect a person’s right to believe it, but I don’t have to respect the holder of those beliefs or the religious institutions that promote them…and I will work very hard to be sure that religious law does not corrupt our secular state.
As far as your contention that the non-believer’s “point of view makes life easier”; it is just the opposite. We non-believers have “the golden rule” (along with many other species). I live my life by the simple idea that “if there is a victim to my actions, then it is probably wrong”. Add to that, we don’t have the luxury of thinking that dictators and despots “will get what’s coming to them”. Unfortunately, Adolf Hitler is NOT writhing in a lake of burning sulfur. He got away with it. We need to take these people to task now, in the world that we know exists. We have to be responsible for all our actions and the people around us. When something needs to get done, we don’t have the option to appeal to some higher power. We need to make it happen ourselves…how is that easier?
Jesus the decider: Concerning who gets into heaven.
I have read some of the postings on the blog concerning this issue. I do not believe that it is Jesus who is the decider, but that it is the Father.
- In Matthew 11:27, it reads, "All things are delivered unto Me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
- In Luke 10:22, it reads, "All things are delivered to Me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."
- In John 5:21, it reads, "Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so also the Son gives life to those He chooses."
In late September of 1974 I decided to call it quits and bring an end to my life here on earth. Several hours later I woke up in the recovery room of the hospital at which time a nurse said to me, "By rights, Mr. Beeksma, you are supposed to be dead."
I knew without a question of doubt in my heart that there was no possible way for me to have survived the suicide bid that I had made: so even I could not understand how I had been brought back to life. And once again I became angry and demanded that I be released and allowed to go on my way, but that was only possible if I agreed to sign out.
When I signed out, the doctor said to me, "We cannot understand how you ever lived?" Well neither could I?
After leaving the hospital and walking down a dark and lonely street I could feel the tremendous pain in my chest and knew that the doctors had to have pounded my chest for quite some time while my heart was stopped.
Seven years later I accepted Christ Jesus as my Lord and Savior as the only hope in this life and the life hereafter. For it was by the grace of God, whether the choice was of the Father or of the Son, is unknown to me. But when I look at John 5, verse 21, as noted above, it could have been either the Father or the Son that chose to give me life through the power of the Holy Spirit.
So my dear friend I challenge you to accept life eternal, free of charge, for Jesus is standing at your door and He is waiting for you to open it.
Is it even worth pointing out that the golden rule is found in Matthew 7:12? Not trying to start a fight, just an observation.
I'm thinking that the response will be along the lines of "it may be in the Bible, but Christians don't have a monopoly on it." Fair enough…
@ncarnes
Here are some links related to some of my statements:
The Creighton University study comparing religiosity with societal ills:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
The above is dense and difficult to read (by design?), so a nice graphical representation is found here:
http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/featured_arti…
Here is the paper on (what is commonly referred to as) “The Madison Monkeys” where rhesus monkeys would forgo food to keep their conspecifics from getting shocked.
http://www.madisonmonkeys.com/masserman.pdf
Here are several of many books by renowned primatologist Frans de Waal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_de_Waal) who, among other distinctions was listed by Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in 2007.
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Natured-Origins-Humans… http://www.amazon.com/Primates-Philosophers-Moral…
Here is the Canadian University study comparing active-nonbelievers with devout believers:
http://www.amazon.com/Atheists-Groundbreaking-Stu…
These are just some from the top of my head. Let me know if you would like more.
Well, let's see……. If the only way to get to heaven is through Christ then I believe it implies that your beliefs and faith must be aligned with what Jesus was teaching. That who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life( or something like that ).
The only way to make spegetti is by boiling spagetti pasta. Penne pasta is not spagetti. It may still be good but it is not the same thing.
Jews and Muslims, as well as other religions, don't accept christ as savior. But they will oneday so they still have a shot.
So if Jesus lets you into heaven it is because you believe what he says to be true. That he came to set the sinner free and through his death and resurection you are offered salvation. If you believe that then you are a christian! CONGRATULATIONS!!!! WE WILL SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE!!! If not, sorry. Bring alot of solarcain.
hmmmm. My post with the corroborating links didn't seem to get up. I will try to reformat it this evening to that spam filters don't block it.
The problem with using prophecies (predictions) as an apologetic argument is that they are only seen as such when one accepts the premise of the incarnation. Every one of them has an alternative explanation that is very reasonable and some of them seem to have been manipulated by the Gospel writers to underline their point ie. the confusion over Jesus’ choice of mount upon his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem.
Although some claim to have been brought to faith by the logical arguments of folks like Lewis and Chesterton I think that it is almost impossible to argue a person into having a faith. God’s evidence may be in abundance throughout nature but his ways are counterintuitive to natural man.
The man was parsing words, pretending to be contextual when in fact he was applying definition apart from the context of Scripture. He was proof-texting in reverse. He was insisting on his choice of definition as to what it supposedly means by clouding the issue with what it does not say. It doesn’t say a lot of things but that does not change its clear meaning. My grandfather, a former trial lawyer, once told me something I never forgot. I was trying to convince him of his need for Christ by quoting isolated verses from the Bible. He said, “Son, remember this: when you use a verse like that, be sure you know what went before and what comes after that gives it its meaning.” If this man wants to be honest, really honest about it, let him do the same.
What's the context? "We don't know where you're going, how can we know the way?" "I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus is talking about the way to go. Traveling, not just arriving. How do you get there (to the Father)? You travel the 'Jesus way', you learn the truth that is an intimate relationship with the Father, you walk in the life that he guides and directs. He is the decider, as all authority has been given to him, but it is not taking the whole scenario into account to reduce it to a mere decision point.
Jesus is talking about a whole lifestyle. That lifestyle is the Jesus life –modeled after him, empowered by the Father, destined to become like him. "You know the way…"
Call it Christian (or not) –it is the way of Jesus.
First I'd like to address the gentleman's comment that Jesus did not say "you have to be a Christian." I'll leave the research up to the reader on this, but it is a historical fact that the word Christian was a derogatory term at the time, that was NOT coined by Jesus or his disciples. It was first coined by non-believers who lived in the city of Antioch. Over time, however, the followers of Christ took that name on for themselves (most believe after the time of Christ's death & resurrection).
Over a period of time, I could quote many areas where the Bible expounds on the fact that we achieve salvation through our belief that Jesus is the only way to salvation – and many have already done so here. The Bible tells us in both the Old Testament (when the prophets of old wrote about the coming Messiah) and through Jesus' teachings, and subsequently through his diciples that he charged with "spreading the good news" that God sent Jesus to pay the ultimate price for our sins, so that we would be "redeemed."
However, I'll add to this discussion by presenting to you Ephesians Chapter 1where Paul talks about redemption, which means to deliver by paying a price. (definition summed up from 3 different Greek interpretations of the word redemption.)
As Paul writes to the Christians in the city of Ephesus, which according to geography experts is now western Turkey, he is telling them about God's love & mercy, and that through Christ Jesus we are redeemed. If you read on in the entire book of Ephesians (which this is one area of the Bible that it pays to do so, to understand all of Paul's message) I think you will see that it supports the Christian view.
I could be misinterpreting what this "athiest" man said, but it seems that he and the other gentleman both were focusing on just the one verse – "no man cometh to the Father except by me." If you take ALL of scripture and put it all together on this subject you will see that it is not just by believing in Christ – like "yeah…hey I believe the guy lived and he was crucified, and I even believe that he was resurrected" —but it is by understanding the fullness of it all. It's understanding that we are able to obtain forgiveness & salvation "through" what Christ did for us. He was the conduit, if you will, that brought us back into relationship with God. If we believe that He did this all for us, so that we could come back into right standing with God, then we only begin to grasp the fullness. Basically, God had kinda given up on humans. He put us here for a purpose, he gave us free will and the tools and resources to rule this planet, an WE screwed it all up. This was what he decided to do to try to save us. But we still have free will. We can either accept it, or not.
I'd like to ask you to pay special attention to verse 13.
Ephesians 1:7-14
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.
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