Yesterday in a coffee shop I totally eavesdropped on a conversation between an Evangelizing Christian (“EC”) and a guy who Wasn’t Having Any (“WHA”). Here’s the gist of their exchange:
EC: But you can’t get into heaven unless you’re a Christian.
WHA: Why not? I’m a good guy. I lead a moral life. Why should I be kept out of heaven?
EC: Because in the Bible, Jesus says, “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
WHA: But that doesn’t say you have to be a Christian in order to get into heaven. That just says that Jesus decides who does and doesn’t get into heaven. “You have to go through me to get into heaven” isn’t the same as, “You have to be a Christian to get into heaven.”
EC: Yes, it is.
WHA: No, it really, really isn’t. If Christ had meant, “Only Christians get into heaven,” he would have said that. But he doesn’t say that in this quote—which is weird, since that’s the quote Christians invariably rely upon as their ultimate proof that only Christians get into heaven.
EC: But that’s what, ”No one comes to the Father except through me” means. It means you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior in order to gain eternal life with our heavenly Father.
WHA: Well, that may be what Christians have decided that quote means, but that’s not what the words of that quote actually say. All Jesus actually says there is, “You have to go through me to get into heaven.” In other words, “When it comes to admission into heaven, I am the decider.” It doesn’t say anything whatsoever about what you have to think, believe in, or be before you can make the cut. It doesn’t say anything beyond that Jesus will determine who is and isn’t acceptable to him. That’s it. There’s nothing there to indicate that Jesus would necessarily refuse a Muslim or a Jew into heaven. That quote only refers to the process by which people do or don’t gain entry into heaven. It doesn’t stipulate any kind of qualifications for getting in at all. And for Christians to assert that that quote does mean what its actual, literal words clearly don’t support it meaning, isn’t good for Christians. It can’t help but make them seem exceptionally dense, willfully irrational, or lying. Either way’s not exactly an inducement to join their club.
Quite the speech! It worked, too: My evangelizing brother in Christ shut down like a Hummer dealership.
After the Christian effected an exit, I started up my own conversation with Mr. Articulate Atheist. I liked him; he was a decent, forthright guy. In the course of our talk, I promised him that here, on my blog, I would do as I have done, and recount his conversation with the proselytizing Christian. Furthermore, I promised him that I would ask whether any of my readers would be willing to take a stab at refuting his assertion that “No one comes to the Father except through me” doesn’t, in fact, say anything whatsoever about whether or not one has to believe in Christ in order to get into heaven.
If you’re inclined to answer this earnest seeker, he’s listening.
Follow-up post: Mr. Wasn’t Haven’t Any Responds to Christians.
See a related post of mine, “What Non-Christians Want Christians to Hear,” here.
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Christian, i too totally agree with you: To find faith is a personnal thing. One will be a believer after seing how wonderful the Universe is, another after reading the Bible, another after having at the bottom and cried over God for help. There are many ways to God.
I never been able to convince anyone with a particular argument that leads directly to God. It is a personal search.
The only thing we can do is plant a seed and hope that God will let it grow
Christian: Extremely well thought out, and said, as always. You're a great … commenter.
Dr. John: To be fair to WHA, all he was saying is: A: Christians rely upon John 14:6 as their primary proof that only Christians get into heaven/get to be with God in the afterlife, and B: The actual words of that passage don't actually say that. I don't see anything there that warrants an assertion that he's in any way being dishonest.
Hello “Seeker,” I’m sorry your name was witheld from this post.
How does one get into heaven? The first step is by faith. Determine (find out) for yourself that Jesus is who He says He is.
How can one get to know Jesus? By reading the bible.
The verbage “EC” used regarding a “christian” means, in other words, a “believer.” How does one become a “believer?”
Come to realize you are a sinner. Find out for yourself that Jesus Christ is God’s one and only Son. Find out for yourself what He did on the cross, that He sacrificed His life for your sins. Find out for yourself that His resurrection power will lead you to heaven.
If you haven’t read any books by C.S. Lewis please do so, at your convenience.
May I offer you a challenge? Read the book of John (4th book in the New Testament).
The bible says if you seek the Lord He will be found. Find out for yourself.
@ Mike, you say that the accuracy of scripture cannot hold up to scrutiny? Where do you come up with that conclusion?
How do you account for the hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled throughout scripture? Do you fall into the camp of those being mere coincidences? Hundreds of "coincidences" predicted by the authors of the Bible, without one contradiction, you have to admit, that's pretty good…
As far as more and more scientist choosing not to believe, what does that have to do with there being a true and living God? The Bible says that in the end days there will be a falling away from the truth. I can point to instance after instance of what could persuade those scientist in one way or another…secular education system that indoctrinates in a secular slant, the humanistic view of looking to one's self for answers versus to a higher power, nothing is new though, all throughout the Bible men turned to sorcerers and fortune tellers to try and find answers, its no different than man looking to science instead of to God. We are all given a choice and it does not mean there is a lack of God because some choose not to believe, where is the evidence in that? Romans says that man is without excuse when it comes to believing because of nature, but then we have the theory that has become a religion to most called "evolution" for which man tries to disregard the creator of that nature. It cannot be done, it has not been done, and it never will be…those scientist and anyone who decides they want to side with them have to make their decision for themselves.
I would love to know how you believe an experience can exist without a source to create that experience. Now you are simply moving into realism, which is not going to prove your point. An apple is red because it is red, not because I think it is red, just because you want to call red, blue doesn't make the apple blue for you and for your experience. My experiences line up with the Bible, and what it says, you can try to disregard that, but the fact is, you cannot discount personal experience, especially when there are millions of people who have shared in the same experiences even though specific details may vary. All you are doing is quoting "theory" to try and disprove something from existing, but you cannot disprove something with a theory.
All I read in each of your responses are man's opinion and apparently, your opinion…someone can give you an answer but because you do not accept that answer it does not make it untrue, but it at least gives you an out and a reason to say it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, yet you are giving no examples of your claims. It takes more faith to trust in science than it does a true and living God who created all things as the Bible says, when you said, "Looking at the universe based on evidence; the universe looks just as it would if no intelligent entity were involved." I laugh because that is simply ridiculous…all of the complex elements of nature, every species and their specific functions, the atmosphere and how it works, as well as the perfect functions of the Universe, the complex make-up of the human body, all of its functions, abilities and design, just happened out of the thin blue air, and then perfectly evolved into what they are today, you want me to believe that over God, right.
At least if you don't believe in God, a higher power, there's no one to be accountable to, right, which means you can do as you please, live as you please, and there are no consequences. I guess your life is meaningless then, since you were not created, because to be created would mean that their was a purpose or a reason behind that creation, but to just evolve to pop into existence would mean that everything is pretty much pointless. So really we should have no laws, there should be no moral code, people should be able to rape, kill, and do as they please because after all of this, there is nothing, just pitch black nothing, so why bother here, its so much easier to live how I want and to do what I want, so why try so hard to live a disciplined life, to treat others with respect and love, according to you, it gets us no where right? I think your point of view makes life easier, interesting!
So I want to go back to the top of this comment tree and ask another question as long as we're being persnickety about words…
>"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects >the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Okay, so what does that mean "eternal life"? Who says that's the same thing as heaven? Under the Christian system, don't people in "hell" have eternal life, even if it is an eternal life of burning, sulfur, and anal probes?
Maybe believers have the shot at Eternal Life and Jesus (or a surrogate?) decides if the believer goes to heaven or hell while the rest of us poor schlubs just have the eternity we deserve, of blessed nothingness.
this is something i've been thinking about quite a bit recently. i haven't come to any kind of conclusio yet, but i keep thinking about something i read in a brian mclaren book, i think it was a new kind of christian. to paraphrase, it went kind of like: "jesus said 'i am the way, the truth, and the life. no one comes to the father except through me.' but most christians visualize it as jesus, not AS the way but standing IN the way of salvation."
plus there's a crazy before-his-time cs lewis story that my brain hasn't really come to terms with yet. i can't remember the title of the story and it's really bugging me. it's time for me to do some googling, i guess. it was about a man who served a different god, and then he died and God told him that everything good he had done in service to the evil idol, he had kept for himself. it was very interesting and thought-provoking. obviously.
Dear Friends,
If I can call you friends, for what is in your (our) hearts only God knows completely – we even fool ourselves with deceitfulness.
Jeremiah 17;9-10 states:
The heart is hopelessly dark and deceitful,
a puzzle that no one can figure out.
But I, God, search the heart
and examine the mind.
I get to the heart of the human.
I get to the root of things.
I treat them as they really are,
not as they pretend to be."
We all like to think we are good people…there are always others who we compare ourselves to who don't make our standard, but there are others who are better than us. God reminds us that all of us fall short of His standard. He reveals to those of us who are willing to admit that we are arrogant and we keep reproducing our own lower standard of life. It's the best we can do!
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
Galatians 6:6-8
Now, WHA, if we really want to know what is real we ask in sincerity (and God, who knows the sincerity of our hearts, gives wisdom generously and doesn't hold back)
"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own".
John 7:16-18
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Galatians 3:5-7
So, my friend WHA – to your heart I beg the question: If there is a God who credits righteousness to a person…and if He credits it according to our believing in Him and His promises, then we are accountable for knowing what those promises are and if we believe in those promises.
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:23-25
"If God were your father," said Jesus, "you would love me, for I came from God and arrived here. I didn't come on my own. He sent me. Why can't you understand one word I say? Here's why: You can't handle it. You're from your father, the Devil, and all you want to do is please him. He was a killer from the very start. He couldn't stand the truth because there wasn't a shred of truth in him. When the Liar speaks, he makes it up out of his lying nature and fills the world with lies. I arrive on the scene, tell you the plain truth, and you refuse to have a thing to do with me. Can any one of you convict me of a single misleading word, a single sinful act? But if I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me? Anyone on God's side listens to God's words. This is why you're not listening—because you're not on God's side." John 8:44-46 The Message
WHA, whose side are you on? Choose. To not choose…that is a choice. I pray for your Peace.
KT
Jeff McQ says:
“No one comes to the FATHER but by Me.” It doesn’t even say “heaven.”
Granted, the Father is in heaven, and Jesus was ultimately going back there to be with His Father. But I think this verse means much more than where you go when you die. I think it is talking about relationship with God. I am not dead yet. But I have already come to the Father–through Jesus Christ.
YES! This is the point (and I think someone else makes it in this thread) – we are doing our best to find our way based on a text translated into English from a vernacular Greek which most likely was translated from Aramaic. “Comes to the Father” “the Kingdom of God” “My kingdom” “Believeth on me” – these would be hard enough to comprehend and agree on if they were dictated from the mouth of God directly into English. There’s much we don’t know/can’t comprehend, and Jesus knows this. For every place his words seem to damn (the non-believer, the rich, etc.) someplace else he redeems. Honestly, I wasn’t able to come to Christ until I STOPPED worrying about whether I was getting into Heaven and started worrying about living the life I should be living because it would please God. I still do a lousy job of it, can’t even claim to be doing my best, which is why I need an understanding savior. I can’t program the doggone VCR – I’m supposed to judge others based on texts written in a language I don’t understand 2,000 years before I was born?! The most Christlike human being I ever knew was an avowed atheist. It’s a paradox. I can’t understand it. I trust and hope to someday.
Thanks, John, for spurring and sustaining this type of conversation.
@ #12 mhogue: I understood your point; just saying that the verse the EC was concentrating on says that “no one comes to the Father except thru Me.” And we have to believe in Jesus in order to go thru Him to come to the Father.
Acting on that belief is a whole different subject.
Yes, if you go outside of one verse and look at the whole of the Bible, you find all kinds of interesting things….
“But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Romans 10:8-10
“Research, on the whole, diminishes belief. Citing the anecdotal cases of research leading to belief, does not diminish this fact.”
Fact? Hmmmm, I’m with you ncarnes. This statement does not in any way reflect the years of life experience I am aware of. I have spent my life in study of not just Christianity but other religions or lack of religions and I have become convienced in the Christ of the Bible (though I realize that is follishness to those who do not know Him).
“Sorry guys, you’re fighting a losing battle. Reason will always prevail, eventually.”
I agree with the last half of your statment which is why I disagree with the first half.
Good discussion here ……..
@wordsseldomsaid
…and by the way, the trend is that scientists are believing less and less. You can see one summary of the NAS survey here:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002….
@wordsseldomsaid
I don’t think I misspoke. A 1998 well-responded study published in the journal Nature documented the level of belief in the (at the time) 517 member National Academy of Sciences (NAS) with the following results:
In my previous readings related to the study; the scientists with the highest levels of belief were mathematicians. Those in the area of biology, cosmology and physics (those that focus on the hows and whys of the universe) were pretty much universally non-believers. I don’t know where you were going with the “only 20 something percent are really being honest”…but I don’t like it.
You then ask for evidence that for my claim that “the universe looks just as it would if no intelligent entity were involved”. All I am saying is that what we know of the universe fits nicely into our understanding the interaction of matter and the time frames that that are predicted. I am NOT saying that empirical knowledge exists that defines anything prior to the “big bang”. (There are reasonable theories, but none are deeply satisfying [to me] or testable) The important point here, though, is that NOT knowing what predated the big band, in no way gives credence to any theistic creation story…it merely leaves the door open for a deistic worldview. Theism requires far more evidence.
As far as how we know the how old the stars are…
We have, with precise instrumentation, accurately assessed the size and motion of the bodies within our universe and the distance between them. We know how light travels and know how long that light would take to reach earth. If you gaze at a star that is 6 million light-years away (the distance travelled by light over one year in a vacuum), you are seeing that star as it looked 6 million years ago. For all we know that star may no longer exist, the light showing us its death hasn’t reached us yet. For any of the creation stories to be true; God would have had to create the light from the stars already in transit toward earth otherwise our sky would be black because no light would have reached us yet. The fact that we can see stars that are billions of light-years away, means that they are at least billions of years old. It’s rather simple.
Ack! Typos!
But Hitler had black hair.
All this talk of stars placed in the heaven at certain times – perhaps some theists as well as atheists are taking the Bible a bit too literally and then coming to opposite conclusions. I don't think the writers expected such a literal take on things – heck they probably hoped we would appreciate their poetry and artistry and in the process inhale the truth of what they were trying to say. (Besides, they weren't really 'writers' were they? Genesis was oral history for a long time before someone put quill to papyrus.)
We face the same problems when we try to figure out exactly what it is that Jesus was saying about the Way and his Sonship and Heaven and Hell. I think if Jesus had wanted to he could have been much more explicit about things. But he wasn't – in fact he rarely answered a question directly, relying upon the Aramaic equivalent of "Well, it's kind of like this…." Seems like he was hoping that we would come to our conclusions about God, rather than being spoon fed doctrine and dogma. You know, treating us like adults instead of children.
No offense, but I think it takes a certain maturity to understand and accept the truth of scriptures (and not just the Judeo Christian ones) without insisting that everyone else understand it in the same fashion. As someone on my blog said, it is crazy to think that someone with a six pound brain is going to comprehend the enormity of God or the Universe. There are certainly many humble atheists out there who seem to get the much more of God's truths than many of us who call ourselves Christian. And part of that truth involves being gentle with ourselves and towards each other.
Matt 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
According to his works, not his faith. You can pick your chapter and verse on either side of this issue.
acutally, john post doesnt say whether or not they were looking at all the passage, or just one sentence of the passage. It says they were discussing one sentence… just like it doesnt say wether or not the atheist man was an atheist or buddist, or wearing a flower print dress.
It does sound like jesus is the decider, and no he doesnt explicitily say you have to be christian, he says you have to go through him… well, since we dont honestly know he's only going to chose christians, then that makes the arguement less important, like skerrib said. He could in fact be choosing only blonde, blue eyed people- like hitler. We dont know.
here mike…i will make it easy for you…
the bible in gen says the stars were placed in the heavens on the fourth day…it also says things were going on on earth in the days before that…which makes some say that might possibly indicate the bible as teaching us that the earth is older than the stars(depending on how one reads it)…of course science says they can show us that is not true and stars are much much older…
can you explain to us how they know that?…
thanks…
mike said,
"Looking at the universe based on evidence; the universe looks just as it would if no intelligent entity were involved."
please how us the evidence mike…
you say 70 something percent of sceintist don't believe and 94% if one includes agnostics…so you are saying that only 20 something percent are really being honest than…yes that is what you said whether you will admit it or not….
Okay, that did seem a tad dramatically bitter/caustic/cynical…
No problem. Anybody who can afford to pay a substantial bribe makes it in. Forget all the other nonsense.
@ncarnes,
There are those that seek the spiritual and there are those that seek the empirical. At risk of painting with two broad a brush; the former are really working on a presupposition of a higher being and, generally, disregard that which is not affirmative of their supernatural worldview. Those that look at the empirical evidence find that nothing stands up to scrutiny. Whether it is the efficacy of intercessory prayer, out-of-body experiences, spiritual experiences, accuracy of scripture, miracles and more…none of it holds up…at all.
Looking at the universe based on evidence; the universe looks just as it would if no intelligent entity were involved. This does not deny the "spiritual experience" or the "transcendent experience". People have them, but there are other explanations for them…and we can sometimes artificially reproduce them. These experiences, though, do not mean that the god of Abraham (or Vishnu, or Osiris or ….) exists. It only means that the *experience* exists.
The problem is the word Christian and what is has come to mean in the world to day.
Follower of Christ and Disciple are much more accurate terms, for what a person needs to believe to be at the point where Jesus does decide.
We have to allow Christ to take our sin to the cross for us, and believe in God's saving Grace.
II Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
No one will get to Heaven unless they gaze upon the wonders of the Cross and believe that Christ died for them. Was raised again to defeat death and make us eternal beings in our belief in Him.
This opportunity to believe is open to everyone of every Race, Color, Nation,
"Go preach, Teach, to all nations, the Jeasus Christ is Lord" …Some one famous said that I think….
Looking thru the many messages, I think maybe a point has been missed here. "WHA" claimed the verse was only saying Jesus decides who gets into heaven, not that you had to be a Christian. (And several commentors agreed with his claim.)
But that's not what the verse is saying, either. Look at it again:
"No one comes to the FATHER but by Me." It doesn't even say "heaven."
Granted, the Father is in heaven, and Jesus was ultimately going back there to be with His Father. But I think this verse means much more than where you go when you die. I think it is talking about relationship with God. I am not dead yet. But I have already come to the Father–through Jesus Christ.
In this whole passage Jesus is affirming His one-ness with the Father through statements like "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus is pointing the way to the Father through His own life. I think too often we wrongly engage people in arguments that boil down to whose religion is the best. For Jesus, it wasn't about religion at all. It was not about the label "Christian" (which did not yet exist). The heart of this passage is that it is through Jesus alone that access to the Father has been made. Relationship with God. And that occurs now, not merely at the gates of heaven.
@ Mike, I would have to look into that research as I am not familiar with it, however from personal experience the only people I have ever known that took a "journey" to discover God, his reality and authenticity and were turned away from belief or from accepting Christianity are those who looked more externally at those who say they are "Christians" or followers of Christ and deemed them as hypocrites or as posers. Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians; Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. – Unfortunately some are looking for Christians to be perfect as an evidence of a Christ or God, and the truth is they will never find perfection, just those who think they are
Unfortunately if I were looking at some people who called themselves Christians I would be tempted to turn away as well, but there are too many evidences for me personally to say there is no God. Christ has done too much in my life for me to reject him. I have been illuminated to his truth and for that I cannot deny it or turn away from it.
@ncarnes,
Yes, there are some who went from non-belief to belief and I have read several of them (Strobel among them). The unfortunate statistic, though, is that nitty-gritty research produces far more non-believers than believers. Look at the National Academy of Sciences whose ranks are 74% atheistic (93% if you include agnostics).
Research, on the whole, diminishes belief. Citing the anecdotal cases of research leading to belief, does not diminish this fact.
As an aside, the believing authors I have read were PAINFULL to read. Most begin with invalid presuppositions to build their case or create straw men to beat down.
One of the things about this discussion that interests me is WHAs view of himself as a good guy, leading a moral life. I guess I'd want to know more about what that means to him.
An awful lot of people — most people, actually — view themselves exactly that way. But if you look at reality, it's almost always … less "clean". A little (or a lot) more messy.
That was the case for me, anyway.
The fundamental issue is "through me". There is a criteria stated in scripture that will not change because man does not believe it, regardless of how long or loud they shout or the endless documents that are wriiten. The Bible cannot be reduced to a singular verse to support a doctrine. It is a totality that cannot be divided into what we like or dislike.
The resort to "Reason" is a euphemism for the arrogance of man, a belief that I say it is so and therefore it must be. Time will be the proof of any form of belief. Eventually we die and will discover the truth – that the Bible is right or wrong. Other than that we are left with speculation which is an endless debate.
Your atheist is imprisoned by the philosophy of "creating God in man's image", that is to define God by his own desires. To say that I am a good person therefoe I go to heaven is only said in ignorance by a person who has not read the Bible, and insists on writing his own version.
The above is forwarded for consideration.
Matthew, you sound just like me, for the first 50 years of my 51 on this earth.
So certain, you are.
But things can (and do) change. For some, anyway.
The problem here is that you're getting preoccupied with details that don't matter. I'm reminded of the phrase, "rearranging deck chairs on the titanic." You bog the atheist down with irrelevant details by over-complicating what's basically Pascals Wager. He doesn't have to and shouldn't believe anything in the bible without a reasonable evidential excuse. Who cares if he interprets the a few lines in the bible a certain way, you Christians have proven very good at reading the same book slightly different ways and making a big deal about it. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter who's right, because everyone's wrong concerning particular details in the Bible; it's not a legal document that can be taken to court, it's fantasy. It's like arguing about the phrasing in an instruction manual for a product that doesn't exist. The bible's a fictional history book, you know, like Stephen King.
Also, would it matter that the guy you were spying on was an atheist? He could have been a Buddhist or even another Christian and your quibble would still be the same.
You know who writes pretty good instruction manuals? Volkswagen and Microsoft. The dawn of man was approximated at conservatively 100,000 years ago; that's when a slightly more primitive version of us split off from our cousins officially. God inexplicably waited 98,000 years before he sent down Jesus, and we got a pretty poor book about it and absolutely no evidence. If he had waited just a small fraction of time longer (2,000 years or so) he'd be able to recruit the best and brightest to make a succinct and easy to understand holy book like a medical text, with graphs and diagrams and pictures and hair samples. Then you wouldn't have to be searching for the phantom needle of truth in the haystack that is the bible.
Sorry guys, you're fighting a losing battle. Reason will always prevail, eventually.
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