What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding?

15 Jul

What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding?

Posted by John Shore in Christianity, Gays and Lesbians. 240 Comments

I’ve recently been invited to a couple of gay weddings. (I live in California, don’t you know—the land of fruits and nuts). So I asked myself the famous “What would Jesus do?” question.

Which led me to the Bible.

Which led me to this:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matthew 23:24),

this:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. (Matthew 23:13),

and, most painfully, this:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:15)

And so it seemed to me that I should go to the wedding of my friends, that Jesus would much prefer I put my love into action—that is, that I participate in the world, wherever it calls me to be—rather than staying at home, alone with my dogma, and showing no one any love at all.

But what do you think? Better to go the weddings, and thereby keep and enhance my relationship with my gay friends, or refuse to go, and probably irreparably damage those relationships? Cuz those are my choices.

240 Responses to this post.

Posted by kade82 on July 15, 2008 at 10:29 am

I was invited to a gay wedding as well; I’m unable to attend due to finances, but I struggled with what my decision should have been. I usually don’t go to weddings at all (unlucky in love, I guess), but I’m grateful that you found the scriptures you did, as that might have made my decision easier.
Posted by Ross on July 15, 2008 at 11:19 am

John,

The quotes of Jesus that you included were Him blasting the Pharisees made up rules, and more importantly, rules that did not originate with God. They were neglecting God’s laws – “love God with all your heart mind and soul, honor father and mother, etc. ” – in favor of their own rules. Included in God’s laws were/are sexually morality. This is not an arguable point and Jesus said he came NOT to abolition the law (God’s law) but to fulfill it.

Some say Jesus never addressed the issue so how can we know for sure where He stood, but there are many sins he didn’t address such as bestiality …so maybe he was for it? The reality is that when Jesus was alive, homosexuality was not an issue amongst the Jewish people and therefore was not addressed as his “mission field” and who He came in contact with was, for the most part, religious Jews. But the gentile world did engage in homosexuality to varying degrees and here Paul, who had much contact with the gentile world, addresses the issue and clearly condemns (Romans 1) it.

My two cents is that we all need to read the Word for what it says and not through a lens of our own opinions. It’s a double edge-sword the Bible is, sometimes it encourages us and sometimes it makes us gulp and realize we need to alter, with God’s help, our behaviour and what we believe.

God Bless
Posted by Danny on July 15, 2008 at 11:33 am

Jesus would have no doubt called it like it was, sin, does he love the homosexual? yes, but he hates the sin. Jesus would not even go, because marriage is between a Man and a Woman, the very frist command was to be fruitful and have children, Jesus can not bless Sin.
Posted by ANNA on July 15, 2008 at 12:26 pm

no way would have I went,nor do I think Jesus would have. Like Danny said he loves the homosexual, but HATES THE SIN.
Posted by David Wallace on July 15, 2008 at 12:42 pm

I would not go to a gay wedding if invited anymore then I would attend a party where people are using illegal drugs, accompany someone on a shoplifting spree, attend an orgy… well you get the point.

If I believe homosexuality is a sin (and I do), then I would feel that I am somehow condoning that sin by taking place in an event that not only condones the sin but celebrates it as well.

Don’t get me wrong – I do not hate homosexuals. I view their sexual preferences as sin just like any other sin. Nor do I stay away from worldly events, hiding my faith and doctrines under a cover.

However, I feel that if we are going to be representatives of the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel, the line has to be drawn somewhere as to what “events of the world” we as Christians attend and partake of.
Posted by ANNA on July 15, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Sorry, I was not finished,dont get me wrong,you should share the love of Jesus Christ, and stand for up for what is right,and you can still love your gay friends, but NOT AT ALL CONDOME WHAT THEY DO. And try and show them that what they are doing is wrong and sinful in the Lords eyes. HIS WORD SAID IT. SOME THINGS ARE JUST BLACK & WHITE NO QUESTIONS ASKED. I pray for all that are gay that one day they will let Jesus be the Lord of their lives and know it is true and pure.God loves his people and wants them to know the truth.And not listen to what Satan haas for them. God Bless you all.Jesus is LOVE. But also HATES sin.Anna
Posted by ANNA on July 15, 2008 at 12:47 pm

David , you hit the nail on the Head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Praise the Lord for Christians who will say things like that!!
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 12:48 pm

I think he would have gone, and talked to those who asked for his advice, and remark upon god, and satan and sin. I dont think he would have a bad attitude, or a holier than thou, he would have preached god and the bible as it said and as he said. I think he would have found the good in people and not just the bad. And I think he would have expressed that they are good, and god loves them, but also that they must accept him and his laws, and at least got them to think about what God wants from them. I dont think he would have asked them to change, I think he would want them to make that decision on their own.
Posted by Rachel Cabal on July 15, 2008 at 12:57 pm

You know I so think you did the right thing!!! Thanks again for your reminder of the oldie but goodie…”God loves EVERYONE”
Posted by makarios on July 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Interesting replies. My thought is that there is a difference between the issue of Going to a “gay” wedding, and being invited to a wedding by a good friend who is involved in a homosexual relationship. My guess, and maybe I’m wrong is that most of the people who replied only have heterosexual friends. Jesus was notorious for hanging out with sinners. They knew where He stood on their behaviours, yet His love for them was, in some cases at least, a life changing experience. Love God. Love your neighbour as yourself.
Posted by Rachel Cabal on July 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm

one other thing…I wonder if David would go to a wedding if he knew someone in the wedding party had a drinking problem or if he knew the guest sitting next to him was gay…cuz that’s probably happened you know…I don’t think I’ve ever been to a sinless wedding…
Posted by ANNA on July 15, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Everyone that would have went ,,,would you like Daivd Wallace said go to a drug party or an orgy,sin is sin? We are not saying we dont love people or that God does not love ALL people. But he has said you have to be in this world BUT NOT OF THIS WORLD.
Posted by makarios on July 15, 2008 at 1:15 pm

To Anna who wouldn’t go anywhere there might be sin – When my neighbour, who isn’t a Christian invites us over to a BBQ where some of the people are smoking dope and/or drinking alcohol, I still go. I even let our kids play with his kids. Yikes!
Posted by David Wallace on July 15, 2008 at 1:23 pm

@makarios – True that Jesus was always around sinners – prostitutes, tax collectors, lawyers, thieves, etc. He even attended parties.

However, I do not recall anywhere in scripture where Jesus partook in their “sinful” activities. I references a few examples in my comment above.

Remember that marriage is a celebration of two people coming together to legally commit their lives to one another in love. When you attend a wedding, you are doing so to celebrate the event with the couple. You also endorse the event by your attendance (if any person objects to this couple being joined in marriage, speak now or forever hold your peace).

Therefore as a Cristian who believes homosexuality is a sin, I could not attend such an event. And if one or both of the gay people were truly my friends, they’d understand my religious convictions.
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Anna, I’m not sure I can answer your question with out confusing you. or myself.

Just because you go does not mean you agree, or partake in what is happening.

John Shore can go to a gay wedding. He may think the couple is going to hell and god hates them and blah, blah. But if he is only witnessing it, then it isnt the same thing as getting up there and Marrying the couple. He’s observing, not partaking- or agreeing or disagreeing.

I can go to a bar. (Which I have occasionally) But being in the bar doesnt mean I agree with people drinking, or even that I am drinking. It means I was there. Observing.

Or you can go to church. And you can merely observe. You dont have to listen, or sing, or even stay awake. You can just be there. Observing.

John says time and time again that god is all about free will. He gives us free will to make these choices on our own. We dont all have to make the same choices or agree with the choices that others make. But we do have to accept that we cant force our choices on others, and we have to respect the choices others make. Regardless of what happens.

I hope that made sense and answered your question.

(And no John this does not mean I believe in god, I’m merely listening to you and paying a small amount of attention…)
Posted by David Wallace on July 15, 2008 at 1:28 pm

@Rachel Cabal – C’mon, Rachel – you are kind of grasping at straws there aren’t you?

I did not say I would not attend an event that had “sinful” people in it. If that were the case, I wouldn’t even be able to attend any event, go anywhere or even hang out with myself now would I?
Posted by samwrites2 on July 15, 2008 at 1:34 pm

John,
Given my relatives, I might get such an invite.
I’d have to let them know I’m not endorsing such unions but I’m not their judge – a higher power is that has a history of condemning such actions like those of Sodom and Gomorrah’s residents, etc…
I’d still go because I love my kin – especially when I can bug the heck out of them.
Course I couldn’t go if they decide to use a Wiccan minister – then we’ve got a problem.
I mean, that’s when the whole event goes to hell.
-Sam
Posted by makarios on July 15, 2008 at 1:34 pm

arlywn – you’ve gone to a bar? I’ll pray for you. David – I hear you. Really I do – But – Well, I guess I just see weddings in a different light. So, am I endorsing sin (smoking dope is technically illegal here) by going to my neighbour’s get-together or just deceitfully opening channels of communication for a later stab at their conversion?
Posted by makarios on July 15, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Does 1 Corinthians 5:9-12(a) apply here?
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Makarios- what are you praying for me for? Do you know what you find in bars?

Normal people who like to drink with their friends instead of alone. People who like to shoot pool. Or gamble on the game machines. Bartenders with a sense of humor. The have better selections in soda than the fast food restraunts. Plus food. They have white chedder popcorn thats becoming really hard to find. They actually card people, unlike the little gas stations that claim too. If youre too drunk they’ll take your keys away so you cant drive drunk. Most everybody is friends. If you need to sell something- someone almost always wants it. If you need it, someone has it. If your car breaks down there are back yard mechanics around every table. People give out stuff they’ve grown in their gardens.

Zuccine is 1.70 a lb at the grocery store. I get it for free from a guy my mom knows through a bar.

when my car broke down several months ago, a guy came and fixed it…. for a case of beer. We met him in a bar too.

Hell, when we moved last year. We had at least 3 people help us and they were all friends from the bar.

They have the best frekking fish frys in town, and people regularly bring their families.

I dont drink, I’m only 19, but I’ve been around some of these people since I was 8- 9. So I dont know what bars you go to, but the ones down here have the southern hospitality down pat.
Posted by David Wallace on July 15, 2008 at 1:50 pm

1 Corinthians 5:9-12 is Paul dealing with a sexually immoral person in the Corinth church (dude slept with his father’s wife).

It is a good portion of scripture that reminds us that as Christians we can and should have relationships with people that do not know Christ. In fact, that is the best way to reach them.
Posted by David Barach on July 15, 2008 at 1:52 pm

David W.,

I appreciate your comments, but I think there is a difference between attending and participating. People who go to drug parties or orgies, go to participate, not simply attend, and I can certainly understand that you wouldn’t want to do that.

I don’t want to put words into John’s mouth, but I think his dilema was regarding attending. If he were asked to officiate or participate actively in the wedding, I think it would be a different question, but attending is not an active act of condoning, rather it’s an act of love for the people involved.

This leads me to believe that Arlywn has the right approach about attending. Don’t shut people out because you don’t approve. Be there for them so that they know that you love them, even if you think that they are wrong. If you turn your back and not go, they will only be hurt and won’t be open to anything you have to offer them. Through your grace, they may learn a thing or two.

Disclaimer: I’m not Christian, but a big fan of certain Christian’s – like John and my wife – and I support gay marriage. My comments are not about religion, they are about how people respond to being loved or shunned. This may not be irrelevant to a theological debate, but as John said, “Jesus would much prefer I put my love into action.” I think that would be more effective.
Posted by ANNA on July 15, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Are we not all glad that on judgement day, we will all stand b-4 God almighty for ourselves and noboby will be there but me & God..Love ya All have a wonderful evening. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 1:58 pm

oh… well if we’re going that way. Have fun in heaven Anna. I’ll kick it with Satan and my friends in hell.
Posted by The Jesus Site Blog » As a Christian, Would You Attend a Gay Wedding? on July 15, 2008 at 2:17 pm

[...] post with a very interesting question caught my attention today. John Shore asked the question, “What would Jesus do if invited to a gay wedding?” While he [...]
Posted by makarios on July 15, 2008 at 2:21 pm

My wife reminds me that if I have to tell people I’m joking then maybe I’m not that funny. arlywn, I was joking about praying for you because you’ve been in a bar. On the other hand, I was bartender back in the days before I became a Christian. I know all about how wonderful that world is. No thanks. Gotta go. Sorry if I’ve offended – Anna. I know your heart is in the right place. See ya there.
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 2:24 pm

oh… sorry makarios.. I’m used to people being serious…
Posted by David Simpson on July 15, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Can we really know what Jesus would do? He probley would pray
for this gay couple, that they would repent,be forgiven. Turn from their sinful life styles.

But, we really do not know what Jesus would do, after all He is God.
Posted by Allen on July 15, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Those who say that Jesus loved the sinner but not the sin are indeed right but would Jesus have given credence to the sinful practice? No! When Jesus hung out with the sinners it was not hanging out in the same way we would see it. He went there because he was invited to teach and to tell them the good news. Those sinners he was in contact with were transformed by his presence. The occasions were about Jesus and not the celebration of sin.

Bringing division and a metaphorical sword may be illustrated best by Jesus’ actions in cleansing the temple of the poseurs of His day. The Gospel’s descriptions of His actions there exemplify very well the way Jesus went about separating the sheep from the goats. And I think it informs my remarks about what Jesus would do today at a gay wedding. I am quite confident of this much: He wouldn’t just let it go.

Allen
Posted by Morse on July 15, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Go, John. Be with your friends, celebrate their love and happiness, and remember the love and happiness you share with your own wife and family.

I don’t know what your personal opinion of the anti-homosexual laws in the OT are. Perhaps you grapple with them. Perhaps not. But I recommend you treat them all the same. Is the law telling you not to east shellfish silly? Is the law saying you must stone disobedient children to death foolish? Well then so is the one about homosexuality.

But that’s only my evil, godless opinion on the matter.

You’ve been invited to an event that celebrates the love of people you care about. If you can’t get into heaven because of that, do you really want to go to that heaven?
Posted by Apes on July 15, 2008 at 4:04 pm

I think you should go. Gay is a sin and it is a sin that is open to the world to see. Would you not tell your kids you loved them if they lied to you or if they lusted??? Those are sins too just not as visible as being gay. To be like Jesus we need to love one another! So go love on your friends and support them but just continue to be the light in their lives.
Posted by John Shore on July 15, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Ross, Danny, Anna, David Wallace, and Allen: While I certainly understand and deeply respect the reason for which you’re able to so readily claim such ringing clarity on the question at hand, can I ask if either of you actually has any dear gay or lesbian friends? Is there any chance at all that you actually WOULD get invited to a gay wedding? If not, then, to be fair, you’ve got to admit that you may not be in the best position to assess or evaluate the whole of the dynamics necessarily at play here.

I’m reminded of a time in the late ’70’s when Paul Simon felt moved to defend Linda Rondstadt against some flak she was getting for agreeing to play a concert in South Africa’s Sun City. I think it was Joey Ramone who was leading the criticism against Rondstadt.

“It’s easy enough for Joey Ramone to say he wouldn’t play Sun City,” said Simon. “But it’s not like anyone’s ASKED Joey Ramone to play Sun City, have they?”

If you don’t have any gay people in your life whom you love with all the passion and devotion that you feel for anyone you love, then you must trust that you’re missing something vital that’s at the very heart and soul of this conversation.
Posted by Candace on July 15, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Not exactly on-topic, but why do people always ask, “What would Jesus do?”, as if He were gone? He’s still in it, folks. He’s here and He’s now. Wake up and smell the perfumed oil.

The more satisfying question, perhaps, is what is Jesus doing? Right now? In this case (in every case), He is giving John (and all of us) yet another blessed opportunity to show character, and to grow in understanding, and to love as He loves.

If EVER there is a time to extend to others the grace the Lord shows you, it is now. Which is kind of a silly statement, because it is no more now than it is any other time, and it is, always.

GO, John. GO to these weddings. Love your friends. Maintain these relationships. Pray for Jesus to show you what He has for you in this, and then watch for Him and follow His lead.

But I’m preachin’ to the choir, because it is clear to me that you do this — you LIVE this — on a daily basis anyway!
Posted by anita on July 15, 2008 at 4:39 pm

John,
While the miles between us kept you from joining my beloved and I at our recent wedding (more specifically the third reprisal) I would remind you that it’s never too late to express your love through a generous wedding gift. Please refer to the online gift registry for Home Depot.
Posted by Lynn on July 15, 2008 at 4:44 pm

John, since you already call them friends, you apparently have developed a relationship with them. If your friends know about your position in Christ, then it is very possible that they will sense the supreme reason for your participation, is one that originates from your love for them. To borrow from one of the scripture verses you quoted from Matthew 23:24, I believe you would be showing mercy towards them, looking through the choices they are making, and displaying a Christ-like attribute of love toward them. God’s commandment is for us to love one another, not to be their judge. He doesn’t command us to judge them, for He is the only one that is qualified to do that. And as for our part in loving others, no matter what choices they have made, God can certainly help us love them if we ask Him to.
Posted by Greta on July 15, 2008 at 5:20 pm

Just came online….the dialogue has been good! I trust the words of Jesus! In the sermon on the mount [matthew 5-7] He told the crowd and the desciples, whom he had just chosen, that they were the light of the world and they were the salt of the earth. Light is the most effective when it is in a dark place… He took us out of the darkness only to put us back into it, to change the darkness with the light of unconditional love….just as God does. Salt means ‘integrity’! I think that calls for pure motives on our part.

Carry on John, with loving your neighbour……even the gay ones. God hasn’t called us to fix people, He’s called us to love them.
Posted by Candace on July 15, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Anita, may I just say, you totally crack me up, every dang post you write
Posted by Skerrib on July 15, 2008 at 5:50 pm

I’d totally go. I think Jesus would, too. I mean, I think he does in a way, being God, who is omnipresent and all. Right with you there, John. Did I use enough commas??
Posted by arlywn on July 15, 2008 at 5:53 pm

did they have gay wedding in jesus’s time? cause if they didnt, then how do we know what he would have done? I mean for all we know he couldva been like “OMG!!!!! A Wedding? No way, I’m not doing formal occasions!”

(I mean that literally Candace, though I know you believe he is still here.)
Posted by furnituremaker on July 15, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Mercy Triumphs over judgment!!!!
Posted by Candace on July 15, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Hey, all I wanna know is, why on earth did I preface my comment with “Not exactly on-topic, but …”, and then proceed to be completley on-topic? THAT is the bigger mystery to me right now.
Posted by Derrick on July 15, 2008 at 6:23 pm

John, I would pray about it and let the Holy Spirit lead you in the right direction. If you feel convicted about going then there is something wrong. That is how I go through questionable situations. If I pray about it and don’t find peace with doing whatever it is, then I don’t go. The Holy Spirit WILL convict you if it is the wrong thing to do. God Bless.
Posted by anita on July 15, 2008 at 6:53 pm

Candace,

I blush, but seriously sometimes a girl, particularly a gay one, has to laugh. The other options could well involve jail time.

As to what would Jesus do, well….I guess the best indication I’d have of how he’d respond to a gay marriage is how he responded to all those who were considered sinners or unclean by the religious zealots of the time; which along with prostitutes and adulterers included those who didn’t keep the full letter of the Jewish law, those who by their profession touched dead bodies or worked with animals and animal skins considered impure. In other words, social outcasts.

And how did Jesus respond to them? He accepted their invitation to dinner. He entered into table fellowship which in first-century Palestine was an intimate encounter and was so offensive to the Pharisees because in eating with them Jesus was identifying himself with those with whom he ate; he was willing to “contaminate” himself with sinners and social outcasts.

And at least as I read the Scriptures, I don’t notice any mention that Jesus demanded that all those eating with him change by the time dessert was served. The tax collector remained a tax collector, the leather smith continued to skin and prepare animal hides and yes, there’s every chance that the prostitute turned a trick the next day rather than starve. But I have no doubt, that while the externals of their life might well have remained the same, their hearts were changed forever because love, grace, compassion, kindness, and mercy never fail to leave their mark on a human life.

Did Jesus tell them to change their ways? Did he call them to repentance while passing the bread? I don’t know for sure but I suspect not because there’s every reason to believe Jesus trusted that if those at the table with him needed to change that God was more than capable of doing so in God’s own time, and for the moment the thing those people most needed before him was simply to spend time in his presence, which was to encounter in a radical and amazing way the grace and love of God.
Posted by Yvette on July 15, 2008 at 7:11 pm

Our neighboor is gay, and our friend. While we don´t really hang out, we talk through the fence and he comes over every once in a while for coffee. He knows where we stand and we know where he stands.

We respect each other.

I tend to agree with David´s posting. I doubt we would attend a gay wedding, that would imply giving it our stamp of approval.

Jesus loves them, that does not change.
Posted by Candace on July 15, 2008 at 7:14 pm

And THAT, my dear Anita, is as well as I have ever heard it said.

I have nothing to add but a great big AMEN!!!

Well, and thank you.

Oh, and God bless, too.
Posted by wickle on July 15, 2008 at 7:28 pm

John,

My wife and I were just talking about a different gay-based story when I came across your post in my Blog Surfer. So, we talked about this, too.

We don’t find it an easy question, but I think we’d go. We will continue to show our love for the friends. We don’t particularly celebrate the relationship or the union, but we would honor the friends and our care for them.

In my case … I had friends who wouldn’t come to our wedding, because I’m previously divorced. Two of them don’t speak to me anymore, largely because of what they consider to be my adultery. Their decision did nothing to dissuade me, of course, but it did a lot to hurt our relationships.

To the nay-sayers … is this position based on homosexuality itself, or just wicked marriages? Would you attend a wedding of a couple that had been living together for the past 8 years, as long as they were good heterosexual fornicators?

Jesus showed a lot of love, grace, compassion, and freedom. I think that “legalism sucks” was one of His big themes. I would argue that he’d go, John, and that you should do the same. I’m sure that your friends know where you stand, and who you are. To refuse to show your love is to send a message that you think God doesn’t have any love for them.
Posted by anita on July 15, 2008 at 7:40 pm

I’m curious. Have any here ever attended a straight wedding that troubled them for some reason. Perhaps you felt like the couple weren’t emotionally and spiritually ready to be married. Maybe the groom is in clear violation of Jesus words in Matthew 19:9 (”I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery”), or maybe the bride was pregnant prior to the wedding, or one is a believer and the other an unbeliever or some other objection, no matter how grave or trivial. Are the only weddings you’ve ever attended been ones you fully approve of? I’ll admit it. I have.

I also think it might be helpful to re-examine what it means to be a guest at a wedding. The role of the guest is to be a witness to the marriage and the vows exchanged between the two people. It’s not about approving of the marriage but of witnessing it and then being a voice that can hold that couple to account in the future for the promises they made to one another and to God. To be able to say to the husband or wife with a wandering eye, “Hey my friend, I was there on the day you promised to be faithful to your husband/wife and as a witness I’m here to remind you that what you said that day mattered”; or to encourage the one who’s thinking of calling it quits after a rough patch, “On your wedding day I heard you give your promise to be there through good times and bad. How can I help you as a friend to honor your word?” We’ve defined being guests at a wedding to being celebrants at a party but going to a wedding comes with responsibility; not the obligation to judge and approve but to witness and give account in the future if account is needed.
It’s both a joyful and solemn thing to attend a wedding but I see nothing in Scripture that would warrant one refraining from attending based on disapproval but instead it cycles right back to Jesus’ continual pattern of practicing table fellowship.
Posted by anita on July 15, 2008 at 7:41 pm

Okay, Wickle said with much more clarity what I was trying to say.

Nevermind me
Posted by Christy G. on July 15, 2008 at 8:05 pm

JOHN,

EVERYTIME GOD HAS APPEARED TO US HE HAS BEEN A GUEST AT A “GAY WEDDING.”

WE ARE NOT STRAIGHT…AT LEAST NOT SINCE THE FALL.

REALLY THINK ABOUT IT…
WHO THEN ARE WE TO JUDGE.
Posted by Steven on July 15, 2008 at 8:06 pm

Jesus was a fisher of men, bringing sinners to repentance. I have a relative who is gay, I don’t support his choice; but in your situation I would use the opportunity to share the gospel and how a close relationship with Jesus has impacted your life.

I also have friends who are atheist, agnostic, etc.; religious conversations are always exciting. Our duty is to spread the good news of the gospel. If you want to be a fisher of men, you have to plant yourself in places other then “the church” to be successful. How can we bring sinners to repentance if we only surround ourselves with fellow Christians?
Posted by Taryn on July 15, 2008 at 8:24 pm

I would go. But I would also let them know where I stand on the issue. And seeing as your friends already, they already know your view. But think of it from their side as well. Some people said you would be condoning the sin. But have any of you ever gone to a wedding where the couple lived together before, or even simply had sex before the wedding? That’s sin. So should I have not gone to my friend’s wedding because of that? Or if they served alcohol, should I not go to that wedding either because other’s might perceive it as wrong? If my friend is getting married, I’m going to support them and be there for them…regardless of whatever sin they might have committed before or after the wedding. So go…who knows, maybe you’ll be the only Christian friend there.
Posted by Nia Nymue on July 15, 2008 at 8:43 pm

It depends whether you consider yourself a representative of Christianity everywhere and for all time, or their friend. As a friend, perhaps it is better to just focus on their happiness. Marriage is a huge thing, regardless of whoever the other party is. It’s a different matter altogether for the Pope for example. It would totally ruin his credibility if he’s seen attending a gay wedding. But then again, I doubt the Pope has gay friends. Take care.
Posted by mark on July 15, 2008 at 9:20 pm

John – you have opened a huge can of worms here, huh? I don’t wanna get preachy so allow me to say this: I think the love, grace, and compassion of Jesus should lead you there.
Posted by David Wallace on July 15, 2008 at 10:41 pm

@John Shore – Regarding your questions as to whether I have any gay people in my life and if the possibility exists that I might be invited to their wedding, the answer is yes.

I have two family members I love dearly who are gay, one of which we visit every year while we are in the Bay Area on business. My wife and I love him as well as his live in boyfriend of many years. We spend much time together and always have enjoy our visit.

They know we are Christians and view homosexuality as a sin but also that we respect their right to live the way they do.

However, if either of my relatives (both of which live in California) decided to get married, I wouldn’t attend the ceremony because of my reasons I mentioned before in this discussion. I think they would understand as they know my religious convictions.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 3:41 am

Taryn:

“But I would also let them know where I stand on the issue.”

To what purpose? In case someone is there recording it so you can make sure no one thinks you support gay marriage? Or because you think they’ll say “Oh! You’re right! How stupid of us, let’s cancel this wedding!”?
Posted by thereisnogray on July 16, 2008 at 4:23 am

Um, last time I looked, fornication is a sin. How many heterosexual weddings have you gone to where you know that the happy couple had been sexually active prior to their wedding? Seriously, how many?

When your invitation showed up in the mail, did you open it and say to yourself: “They’re fornicators, I can’t go to that wedding,” or did you pull up their registry at Target and look for a gift?

Is attending a homosexual wedding any different? Should we take a stand against all of that sin by not attending? If you say you’re not going to attend the homosexual wedding because it condones the sin, then apply that reasoning across the board to the hetero wedding too. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite!
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 16, 2008 at 4:37 am

And once again, I’m reminded of the political candidate here in West Virginia who, when asked if he could draw an ethical distinction between a monogamous Gay couple and a promiscuous Gay man, said, “Sure! One is bad, and the other is worse.”

Not a good value judgment.

I think we can all pretty much agree about what the Bible says in terms of rape, incest, adultery, inhospitality, and ritual sexual practices in pagan temples. But when it come to two compatible adult Gay individuals who have made a solemn commitment to love and support one another in the presence of family and friends …. well, I just can’t imagine there being two different standards based on sexual orientation. So sue me.

It is not my desire to dismiss the religious convictions of people like Ross, Danny, Anna, David Wallace, and Allen. But I still have to wonder why we offer so much support to Straight couples when they date, and get engaged, and get married, and build lives together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and we think this is a GOOD thing … and yet for Gay couples to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing. If you’re Straight it’s all lovely and wonderful, but if you’re Gay it’s just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Me, despite the fact that I am not a religious person, I still am quite old fashioned when it comes to love and commitment. I think people today do not take marriage NEARLY as seriously as they ought to. Too many people, Gay and Straight, rush into weddings with stars in their eyes while not completely grasping the fact that this is SUPPOSED to be a lifetime commitment, no something one just goes along with for as long as it suits. All my friends, Gay and Straight, know how strongly I feel about this. I’m not going to be judgmental about people who are just dating, but MARRIAGE is supposed to be a much more serious matter.

Having said all this, John, I would encourage you to attend your friends’ weddings. And when you get a chance to talk to the lucky couple before or after the ceremony, by all means express to them how important commitment is, because I think we can all agree that heartbreak and betrayal and pain are among the GREATEST of evils.

Your pal,
CHUCK A.
Posted by Tamara on July 16, 2008 at 6:25 am

It’s so easy to spot topics that are sensitive. I mean when John wrote about the houseboats or the plastic furniture, there were maybe 10 posts on each. Surely we couldn’t be as passionate about things like that, but wow.

I’m not going to claim that I know the right or wrong answer to whether or not a righteous person should be seen in an unrighteous setting. However, I have a friend that is gay and we hang out weekly. I wrestle with what it means to not be yolked with unbelievers, but I think it means don’t find yourself participating in their sin, (in this case, don’t be gay).

My friend knows how I feel about a homosexual couple getting married. We had a debate once about what’s so wrong with gay marriage. The outcome was that I couldn’t agree with a couple that insisted to have a minister officiating. Because that’s perverting our faith. But if they have a civil ceremony, I couldn’t disagree on that, no one was asking God to bless the relationship. Aye? So, seeing as my friend and I are more than just accquaintances, how could I withold my presence from an occasion like that? It’s not like he’s asking me to be gay or to get up and say a prayer or anything. I think it would be a tremendous testimony of God’s love to go, not to condone, but to just say, “Hey I love you, man.”

My friend came to church with me a few times when I invited him and he knows that he can always come, no matter what’s in his life. And maybe someday, God will touch his life and open his heart. Or maybe not. That’s up to God.
Posted by Dorothea Jackson on July 16, 2008 at 6:30 am

The question is John, what are you? I know that people have relatives that chose this life style as well as friends. But are you letting them know this is not something you agree with, but because you have God’s love for them you will not cut ties. By allowing your light to shine, maybe in time it will light the road for them to see God’s true creation. That creation is Jesus the Light of the World, and in him is not Gays or Lesbian,or Homosexual nor effeminate as the Bible states. 1Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulteres, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
Posted by Love and pray for them. on July 16, 2008 at 6:39 am

Are we forgetting the whole gist of this issue? God loves everyone and want them to come to Him, but he does not endorse homosexual marriage.

The Bible does not say “Search out your own salvation according to the social standards of today and whatever you think is right…”

It’s not our personal interpretation of “What Would Jesus Do?” according to today’s social standards where black has become white and white has become black or various shades of gray. We need to apply it directly to scripture and understand what Jesus would do according to God’s word.

Attendance at a marriage that is not supported by God’s word implies support of homosexual marriage, not lack of love for someone we might consider personal friends.

Those who don’t know Christ and have chosen a lifestyle that is in direct contradiction to God’s word need the Savior. Why compromise or confuse your principles with today’s society rather than what the Bible has to say? You can still love that person and pray for them. Homosexuality doesn’t make someone a bad person, but it does separate them from God because of their sin. Pray for them, love them, but don’t attend the marriage.

Why would we endorse that? You can still be supportive of them as a person and in recognition of their need for Christ without compromising God’s word or your Christian principles. Seek the Lord and his guidance, not the words of man.

Don’t mistake changing social mores with biblical mandates. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is sin. While we love the sinner and hate the sin, we shouldn’t be confused with TV images of homosexuality as a normal acceptable lifestyle in God’s eyes…and accept that as long as it is a committed and loving relationship, that makes it OK?

Marriage is an institution set by God between a man and a woman. What kind of precedent does that set for our children and the message it gives them for future generations?

Be loving and kind to your friends Gay or straight who don’t know the Lord because you will never lead them to the Savior if they don’t see a glimpse of Him in you. Going to support a homosexual marriage is not the way to do it.

By all means, don’t every forget the importance of commitment…to our Savior for time and eternity. We should base all our relationships from our commitment to Him. He set the standard for our relationships and commitments, and none of them involved homosexual relationships.
Posted by Scott on July 16, 2008 at 6:41 am

John, I applaud you. Looking past the sin, and to your friend, who invited you to a civil event out of love and honor. You do great justice to Jesus when you help others. Remember, what you do to the least of these, you do for Him. We are called to be among the world. Not to enclose ourselves in our own little community, helping none other than those like ourselves.

As someone that does have gay friends, I struggle with this. If two people love each other, and have a committed, caring relationship, I see no problems with them joining in what, at the end of the day, is a civil ceremony.

Also, I think you’re right on another note. By invoking the “Woes” passages, you’re pointing out how hypocritical we (as a society) are by doing things like banning gay marriage. Marriage is a legal standing in this day and age. That’s not to say that marriage isn’t something the church doesn’t desire. It does. My marriage is a sacrament before God and I treat it as such. But for my gay friends, it’s just a legal right and social standing that they too deserve.

And yes, as a matter of fact, I do live in California.
Posted by anita on July 16, 2008 at 6:47 am

Just to provide the perspective of a real, live gay person…when my partner and I had our church wedding back in 2002, (that would be the one I finished paying for in 2004) I invited all my siblings and parents. All are conservative Christians and believe unwaveringly that homosexuality is a sin, as did I for many years. In inviting them I told them I wanted them there because I loved them and they were my family and that were they to attend I wouldn’t take that as a change of conviction on their part but just that they were being there as my family on a day that was deeply important to me. My siblings all came. One walked me down the aisle. One helped arrange the table flowers at the rehearsal. One squirmed uncomfortably through the entire event and when I said “I know this is hard for you and it means the world to me that you’re here” answered by saying “Youre my sister and I love you. Where else would I be?”

They were there for me on that day and I will always remember that with the greatest fondness though it did nothing to change their view on homosexuality nor did I expect it to. After the wedding my friends didn’t ask me if in coming to my wedding it meant they’d changed their minds. What they commented on was the quality of my siblings love to have put aside their personal convictions and discomfort and be there for me on my wedding day. Many of these friends weren’t Christians and so the message they received about Christians was a positive one.

And no, my parents didn’t come nor acknowledge the day at all. That was painful to me even while I understood. Over the years there have been good times and not so good times with my family over this. Times when painful words have erupted and walls temporarily built between us but always we come back to being family and loving each other despite the places where we think the other is wrong. One of the greatest gestures of love Ive ever experienced in my life came to me from my mom a few months after my dads death three years ago. She wrote a very short note. In it she apologized for some very hurtful words she’d said at the time of my engagement to my beloved. And then she wrote “You know how I feel about the whole thing but I want you to know Im happy you have someone in your life that you love and someone who loves you. I’m happy you have a church that loves and appreciates you. I love you Honey.”

My beloved and I spend Christmases with my huge family. When I talk to them on the phone they ask how D is doing and tell me to tell her hello for them. Mom sends her birthday cards each year. My family doesn’t approve of homosexuality. They just love me.

That’s one human story in response to Johns question.
Posted by Warren Throckmorton on July 16, 2008 at 6:49 am

To those who would not attend, would you attend the wedding of two people who you believe were not Christians or who were involved in some other activity that you believed to be sin?

There are many comments, I am sorry if someone has addressed this.

Thanks John for bringing up the tough stuff.
Posted by Diana on July 16, 2008 at 7:00 am

Wow. Lots of discussion. A lot of which I’ve come to expect coming from the church–lots of hatred masked as “love the sinner, hate the sin.” But also a lot of surprisingly open-minded and gracious comments. It was encouraging to read that I’m not alone in my views…

Let me just say this, your presence, John, is an incredibly strong witness to your love to your friends, in Christ. They’re watching you–seeing whether or not you love them as you say you do–as you say God does.

I’ve been involved in a similar dilemma: whether or not to openly and actively support my friend in his drag. It’s been an interesting road, but I’ve decided that he needs my support and encouragement far more than he needs my condemnation. I recently went to see him perform and it only strengthened my desire to support him and encourage him to follow his dreams (which, include stepping beyond drag)

While I know that my choices are not going to be understood by many in the church at large, I also stand confident in my relationship with Christ, and my conviction that it is my task to show these men Christ’s love. It’s not my job to change them–that belongs to God alone. I simply seek to offer them healing and love.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 7:21 am

To those who have used the example of attending the wedding of a couple that have fornicated (had sex) prior to the wedding and questioned how this is any different than a gay wedding, I will say this:

If you wish to argue along those lines, then my defense would be that two fornicators getting married are “making things right” whereas a gay couple getting married is making nothing right. One act is a correction while the other is a continuance in the sin.

Therefore it is a poor example indeed because it is not the same scenario.
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 7:43 am

thereisnogray, your analogy doesn’t work. A heterosexual couple who is getting married is doing the right thing and puting an end to their fornication. A gay couple who is getting “married” is still sinning. The bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin – an abomination – in the eyes of God. I don’t understand this, but it is God’s word and I accept it. Of course we should love all people as God does, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t have the right to believe that what they are doing is wrong.
Posted by madmonq on July 16, 2008 at 7:47 am

3 words: Water into wine.
Posted by J. Nelson on July 16, 2008 at 7:52 am

I have two homosexual children. A 25-year old woman and a 19-year old man. My children grew up in church, had christian education and acknowledged Jesus as Lord. I also have to two heterosexual children. The youngest is a godly young man who serves the Lord with all his heart.

It is difficult to accept, my wife and I have been embarrassed by some of the antics that come with the choices my children have made. They know that we love them unconditionally; BUT, we DO NOT approve the life-style. We call it sin, because that’s what it is. We would never attend a wedding. That would be mocking God and the union he calls HOLY. We will never cheapen something God blesses. Some will call us “homophobic, out-of-touch, insensitive” you name it.

It has to be done in love. We have not bought into the liberal lies that are so common place at the home state of this author. We don’t cherry-pick the scriptures for a socially acceptable middle ground. The answer is best written then followed up with a call. It goes something like this: Dear _____ we love you so much. You are so special to us. It is with great disappointment that we have to inform you that our belief in God and his infallible word doesn’t permit us to celebrate your marriage union. God’s word is clear on this topic, it is an abomination in His eyes. God loves you dearly and hates all sin. We understand that much of society views this differently, our decision is not hate based nor is it a reflection of who you’ve chosen for a partner. It is based on our acknowledgement of the scriptures as God’s commands to us as to how to live our life and what is acceptable to Him. It is with great disappointment that we are informing you that we cannot attend your wedding. Our prayers are with you.
Posted by thereisnogray on July 16, 2008 at 8:19 am

David- Marriage doesn’t “make it right.” Asking for God to forgive the sin and then turning from it makes it right. What I am getting at is that we seem to look past some sin when it’s convenient to us, but other sin is a huge stinking deal. Sin is sin. Is one greater than another? If two raging alcoholics want to get married, but their entire relationship is based on being drunk together all the time, should we support it? I’m not equating homosexuality with drunkeness, simply trying to make the point that if we are going to turn a focused laser beam on homosexuality and marriage, then why don’t we apply the same standard to all sin? I say it’s because we have the plank in our eye, but we still try to get the speck out of our neighbor’s eye.

Heather. I agree that it is a sin-an abomination-in the eyes of God. I was trying to raise the bar and extend the debate. Please see above as additional comments.

In this day and age, many churches are happily marrying anyone who shows up at the door and says they want to get married–regardless of their relationship with Christ and any unrepentant sin in their lives. What if the Gay couple decides that they love each other and want to be married and agree that they will never have sexual relations again so long as they can live together and celebrate their love and affection for each other? What do we do now?
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 8:27 am

“To those who have used the example of attending the wedding of a couple that have fornicated (had sex) prior to the wedding”

I honestly want to know the world you people live in where people don’t have sex until they get married. Because, unless I’m terribly blind, that isn’t the world I live in.

That being said, I’m being considered to officiate the wedding of a gay friend of mine. I hope they pick me. Can’t wait.
Posted by thereisnogray on July 16, 2008 at 8:36 am

I guess we live in different worlds then, don’t we?
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 8:55 am

Plainly.

I’m just glad that homosexual couples are finally being allowed to legally marry.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 9:06 am

thereisnogray “What if the Gay couple decides that they love each other and want to be married and agree that they will never have sexual relations again so long as they can live together and celebrate their love and affection for each other? What do we do now?”

Your argument does not hold water.

It is the sex that makes it a homosexual act. Therefore two people of the same sex who live together, are committed to one another as friends and do not take it to the stage of sex are not homosexual. They are very good friends.
Posted by mormonsoprano on July 16, 2008 at 9:10 am

There are a lot of comments on this one, and I have only had time to read about half, so perhaps someone has already shared my thoughts. This does present a dilemma, as on one hand we love our gay friends and want to show respect for them, and on the other hand we love God and want to show respect for His law. On one hand we know Jesus taught us by word and example to not judge others, and on the other hand we are instructed to “Stand Ye in Holy Places”.

I personally have many dear friends who are homosexual, some are married, some are considering marriage. I don’t agree with their practices, I don’t agree believe that their marriage is recognized by God, nor should be recognized legally. However I do love them as brothers and sisters and children of God. I know that Jesus does as well. I have never been asked to attend one of these weddings (yet) however, if and when I am, I would first do what John has done. I would turn to scripture, I would study out for myself the teachings of Jesus and his prophets. And then I would kneel and pray and ask the Lord what He would like me to do in that individual situation. The wonderful thing about facing any of life’s difficult decisions is that each of us are entitled to personal answers, direction and inspiration from God through the Holy Spirit (James 1:5, Job 32:8, etc)
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 9:10 am

@Morse – I dated my wife for 6 months, asked her to marry me and then was engaged for another six months before being married. In all that time, we did not have sex. We waited.

That was 17 years ago but I also know many people today that wait.

True it is a rarity but it still does occur. And as to what world we live in – a very dark one my friend.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 9:16 am

First of all, I was not in any way disparaging people who wait until marriage to have sex. Merely expressing that it is quite a rarity these days.

“a very dark one my friend.”

Strange how different two peoples outlooks can be.

Certainly the world is not perfect. But the world I see forming is one with more acceptance and freedom, more love and caring, full of more education and the search for knowledge and truth.

The fact that John and many others want to show their love for their friends in spite of their dogma proves that, and gives me a great deal of hope.
Posted by Dan on July 16, 2008 at 9:26 am

I guess for me, it’s about salt and light. If you can bring Jesus light to the world without being near/in the darkness, more power to ya.
God loves me (regardless of my sinful state) because he made me. Does He want me to stay that way? No way!
Posted by Dan Harrell on July 16, 2008 at 9:41 am

John,

It’s probably a good think I get these the next day.

I feel like I tuned into a blog and stumbled onto a lynching. It is a revelation to see the arguments one way or another. Anita and Wickle seemed to capture the question and the answer best.

Jesus would go, celebrate the friendship and let his actions speak for him. Jesus wouldn’t condone sin, but he would not call a tactical nuclear air strike on it either. Isn’t he the same guy that changed water into wine? He wouldn’t want people to get drunk, but having wine at a wedding celebration was good stuff in his mind. And remember that encounter with the prostitute at dinner and the Mary Magdelaine thingy too.

When we try to make God human with human characteristics, we limit him to our flawed perceptions. God tells us he doesn’t think like we think or do what we would do. And the love part is unconditional love, not flawed like ours.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 9:42 am

@Morse – Guess it depends on what lense you are looking through. I am generally a very positive and optimistic person but as a Christian, I see the world getting darker and darker. Just turn on the local news! Or even compare the local news now to say 20 years ago. Big difference at least in this country.

There’s more crime, more hate, more racial prejudice, not to mention how unstable the Middle East is and global warming. I could go on but I digress.

If you can’t see these things, then maybe you just aren’t looking.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 9:56 am

David W:

Hmmm, 20 years ago you say?

Let’s look at what was happening in 1988, shall we?

January 15 – In Jerusalem, Israeli police and Palestinian protestors clash at the Dome of the Rock; several police and at least 70 Palestinians are injured.
March 16 – The Halabja poison gas attack is carried out by Iraqi government forces.
March 16 – Iran-Contra Affair: Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North and Vice Admiral John Poindexter are indicted on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States.
October 5 – Thousands riot in Algiers, Algeria against the National Liberation Front government; by October 10 the army has killed and tortured about 500 people in crushing the riots.
December 2 – A cyclone in Bangladesh leaves 5 million homeless and thousands dead.
December 7 – In Armenia an earthquake 6.9 on the Richter scale kills nearly 25,000, injures 15,000 and leaves 400,000 homeless.
December 21 – Pan Am Flight 103 is blown up by Libyan terrorists over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing a total of 270 people.

And those are just bits and pieces.

It seems to me that the world is pretty much the same today.

However, there’s more racial acceptance (a black man is running for president and is actually the frontrunner), more acceptance of homosexuals (they’re getting their right to marry) and I honestly don’t remember the last time there was a riot in a major US city.

Is the world perfect? By no means. But it is certainly on par, if not better off, than 20 years ago.

Every generation thinks the younger generation is worse than they were. And every generation of Christians thinks the world is coming to an end.

And yet, the world keeps not ending, even if the gays are getting married.
Posted by thereisnogray on July 16, 2008 at 9:58 am

David, you miss my point. If we remove the sin (sex) part, do you go to the wedding? I’m trying to figure out what we have the problem with. Is it the sin (sexual acts), or the being married? For example, God says don’t be unequally yoked, yet we have all been to weddings where a Christ follower and a non-beleiver have tied the knot. Did anyone stand up and say: “I object to this marriage because they will be unequally yoked”? If you are a believer/Christ-follower, do you go to that wedding? Why or why not?

There were a whole bunch of people that said they couldn’t go to the wedding because it was the marriage of people who were sinful and keep sinning. Why don’t we apply the same test in everything? I would argue that if a person is not a homosexual, that they will freely point the finger and say it’s wrong, but if they’ve had sex prior to marriage, they will say it’s OK. No one seems to want to talk about the hypocrite part because that knife cuts a little too close to home.
Posted by Chris on July 16, 2008 at 10:02 am

I do believe Jesus would show love for homesexuals if he walked the earth today. I don’t think he would treat them any different than a straight person. However, I do not think Jesus would put on the appearance of supporting their union by attending it. A wedding is a spiritual union and a celebration between a man and a woman, not those of the same gender. In my mind, attending shows approval of the union, not attending shows the opposite. If Jesus had attended a gay wedding in the bible and he said nothing but celebratory words, where would we be today on this issue. But he didn’t.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 10:17 am

@thereisnogray – You wrote, “If we remove the sin (sex) part, do you go to the wedding? ”

Then what is the point of getting married in the first place?

Look, marriage is a God-created thing where His original intention was for a man and a woman to join themselves together and become one.

Unfortunately what is happening in our society today is that people are trying to redefine what “marriage” is. And if it is not a union between one man and one woman, what will it become?

Will people start marrying “anything” they love – a person of same sex, their pet, their computer, a child — you get my point.

Therefore, if God created marriage and limited it to one man and one women, anything else is a perversion and twisting of His original intention, whether there is sex or not.

That being said, I have never heard of a gay marriage where sex was not to be part of the relationship, unless I suppose the couple is so old that sex is only a distant memory for them.
Posted by wickle on July 16, 2008 at 10:20 am

Anita (#48) – great minds think alike, right? Actually, I’m not sure what that has to do with me. I usually rate more like, “Even a stopped clock is right twice per day” (which doesn’t apply to digital clocks).

@David:
“One act is a correction while the other is a continuance in the sin.”

Are you assuming contrition? My two brothers each lived with their girlfriends before marriage. Neither thinks it was wrong, even if they are now married.

But the real point is, What will leave John in the best place to witness to his friends?
Posted by Rachel Cabal on July 16, 2008 at 10:24 am

DW…I don’t grasp at straws unless they are bendy straws….
Then what ARE you saying. how do you go anywhere or love anyone when you know they’re all sinners. Isn’t the most important thing to love one another? We all have relationship (even with ourselves) where we don’t completely approve of the person. Only Christ’s love overcomes what we as humans feel about each other. Try being the love guru and not the judge guru.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 10:25 am

“Will people start marrying “anything” they love – a person of same sex, their pet, their computer, a child — you get my point.”

I’m not even going to point out how grossly offensive it is to compare a homosexual to a pet, computer or child.

But fine, I will answer your hypothetical.

People WILL start marrying their pets, their computers, and children…as soon as those things are considered full and legal citizens who have the ability to sign contracts.

No one is trying to redefine marriage. We’re merely trying to point out that the religious definition of marriage isn’t the legal one. At least not in America.
Posted by wickle on July 16, 2008 at 10:29 am

I hate automatic smileys … That’s supposed to be a 48 after Anita’s name.
Posted by ANNA on July 16, 2008 at 10:46 am

Hi David !! am back lets just pray LORD COME QUICKLY!!!!!!! BOY IS THIS A DISCUSSION…..When doing my devotions today, in John ,,Jesus said the world hates me, and they will hate you,so until he comes I will stand firm on his word and serve him and trust him with all my heart !!! And just pray God give all of us your love and conviction in our hearts to whats good in your site and do your will,Daivd we will not be right in alot of people eyes!!! But hold on to what is right in the site of God…Because like I said earlier,,WE ALL WILL STAND B-4 HIM ONE DAY !!! AND ALL I WANT TO HEAR HIM SAY IS ENTER IN MY GOOD AND FAITHFULL SERVANT,,, GOD BE WITH YOU ALL (WE ARE ALL HIS CHILDREN)AND HIS WILL IS NOT ONE TO PERSIH….SATAN IS OUT TO KILL AND DESTORY ALL OF US IF WE LET HIM…
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 10:49 am

Many of these postings are frightening and a clear indication of just how far we are from God and his word to us. We’ve lost sight of the truth that God laid out for us in the Bible. How can we even think for a moment that Jesus would attend the celebration of something that his father said was an abomination. We can love our homosexual friends without attending a ceremony that goes against our God.
David Wallace, you have made some excellent points. Please keep speaking the truth even when it’s hard for some to accept.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 10:53 am

“Many of these postings are frightening”

I agree wholeheartedly. But we are thinking of quite different posts.
Posted by ANNA on July 16, 2008 at 10:58 am

@ Morse ,,hello are you a minister?
Posted by Allen on July 16, 2008 at 11:02 am

John, you are correct, my view of gays may change upon knowing them personally, but not my opposition to gay marriage. I guess what 2 adults do between themselves is up to them, but what society ought to endorse and promote is the real question when it comes to legal marriage. And by the way, does God get any say in this? Jesus himself confirmed that from the beginning it was to be man and wife (Matthew 19). Jesus is not in the business of rationalizing sin, although he is in the business of forgiving it. We should follow his example. I don’t think loving someone unconditionally means you should have to give up your moral principles.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 11:05 am

@Rachel Cabal – You wrote, “how do you go anywhere or love anyone when you know they’re all sinners.”

We’re discussing whether we or even Jesus would attend a gay wedding (the event), not whether we would attend events in general where sinners were present.

Seeing that we are all sinners, if an event did exist in which no sinners were present, Jesus would be the only one in attendance.

Furthermore I’m not judging anyone. I respect a gay person’s right to be gay. We all have free will. I am merely stating what I would do (attend or not attend) based on my moral and religious convictions.
Posted by ANNA on July 16, 2008 at 11:10 am

@ David read # 87 hi its me Anna
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 11:12 am

“I guess what 2 adults do between themselves is up to them, but what society ought to endorse and promote is the real question when it comes to legal marriage.”

Would you deny marriage (in America, not your church) to atheists? Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Mormons? Scientologists? Anyone who didn’t subscribe to your particular brand of Christianity?

@ Anna: Nope, just a well studied atheist.
Posted by thereisnogray on July 16, 2008 at 11:20 am

So that we are clear, I would have no intention of going to the wedding. I’m just saying that if you say you aren’t going either, do you know why? If you can’t go on principle because you feel will be celebrating sin or giving your blessing to something that is not of God, then fine! I merely wondered how far you were going to take that principle. In God’s eyes (and I don’t know the answer to this) is homosexuality a greater sin than drunkeness, or adultry, or [insert sin here]? Do you accompany your friends into the bar and watch them get drunk? Do you drive your friend to meet with his mistress?

I realize that the post was about attending the wedding ceremony of two homosexuals. As Christians, where are you going to draw the line when it comes to standing up for the truth that you believe in as a Christ follower?
Posted by ANNA on July 16, 2008 at 11:23 am

@ Morse,,Wow arent we glad God is good and loves everyone even atheist,,,I pray for you that your eyes will be open one day ,,God knows my heart,when I say that I dont mean to be judgemental,,just saying we are all of his children and he wants us to live with him in Heaven one day !!! Am gonna pray for you even if you dont want me to,,,Anna
Posted by arlywn on July 16, 2008 at 11:27 am

wow… anita, if we listen to the thoughts of the ‘fanatically christians’ then you’re going to hell. I thought you were a fairly sane person, but after reading about you and D… I still think you’re a fairly sane person. imagine that. Lets chalk that up to one more thing they’re wrong about.

Oh, and morse? I always liked you. Now I know why.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 11:30 am

Arlywn: Cheers. Right back at you.

Anna: Pray all you like. Doesn’t bother me one bit.
Posted by anita on July 16, 2008 at 11:37 am

Arlywn,

My sanity, as well as my lack of rhythm, has been an occasional matter of debate but that I am His and He is mine isn’t up to majority rule. That was settled along time ago. Up a hill. On a cross. In an empty grave.

And the good news is at least I’m not like certain people (who will remain nameless and shameless) who gasp, sigh, shudder frequent BARS!. ::::roll of the judgmental eyes::::
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 11:56 am

Anita, you seem like a very nice person (and a gifted writer) So, I hope you won’t be offended by my questions. I’m just curious and trying to figure life out. Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? And, if so, how do you reconcile your lifestyle – which God clearly does not approve of – with your faith?
Posted by Spike on July 16, 2008 at 12:13 pm

What did Jesus do when they turned His Father’s house into a “den of thieves?” Do you think Jesus would sit there and wink at it? No, I don’t he wouldn’t tolerate His Father’s house being turned into a house of sin for California-style political correctness.

Quit cherry picking scriptures and rationalizing. Christ is loving, He is also holy.
Posted by Mike Ferraguti on July 16, 2008 at 12:14 pm

…if I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

I recall Phillip Yancey’s book on Grace. Yancey had a friend “come out” with his homosexuality. Someone asked the friend’s mom, “Isn’t it an abomination that your son is a homosexual?” The mom responded, “He may be an abomination, but he’s my pride and joy.”

Sounds just like how God would respond to all of us abominations.

Go to the wedding. Let love rule in your heart.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 12:22 pm

@ Heather:

“which God clearly does not approve of”

So, according to you, does god also clearly disapprove of shellfish, pork, multi-fiber blends, and clean-shaven men?

@ Spike:

“What did Jesus do when they turned His Father’s house into a “den of thieves?” ”

Are you suggesting that a good Christian go out, make a whip, return to the wedding ceremony and attack everyone with it until they run away?
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Morse, you know (some of) your old testament, but a little knowledge can be dangerous. I’m pretty sure God now approves of shellfish, pork, and multi-fiber blends – and I really hope he approves of clean-shaven men as I don’t like facial hair I could be wrong though. Like I said, I’m still trying to figure everything out.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Heather, I find it funny that those same rules are placed directly next to “homosexuals are an abomination”, but Christians ignore the shellfish rules and cling to the gay one.

It seems to me that it all comes down to “Gays are icky, and this old book we mostly ignore says they’re bad. So let’s listen to that part of the book, and keep ignoring the rest.”
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Maybe we should stop ignoring those shellfish rules after all. Many are allergic to shellfish and even die because of partaking……. And don’t even get me started on pork. I’ve abstained ever since dissecting a fetal pig in school. Icky stuff indeed.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Heather,

That’s fine. Just don’t pick and choose. No speaking in church. No clothes made with multiple fibers. If your children talk back to you, stone them to death.

There are many other rules, but that’s a good start.
Posted by Christi on July 16, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Before I met my wonderful husband I was bisexual and I see this from such a different prospective. I believe that when I was living that lifestyle I was lost. When I met my husband my life changed because I found someone who loved me. Shortly after meeting my husband I came to understand God’s love for me too. Now I am a Christian and I believe the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. I believe it is a sin just like any other sin… like smoking. Some people think it’s fun, others think it’s disgusting, but it doesn’t matter what we think because God is the judge. I believe our job is to love everyone and be a light that shines so bright people know that it is Christ’s love overflowing our lives. The question of going to a gay wedding should be the same question as any activities you are thinking about. If you can go to the wedding and shine Christ’s love then go. If by going to the wedding you are putting yourself in a risky situation where you are tempted to sin (even if that just means being judgemental) then stay home.
Posted by David Wallace on July 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm

@Morse – Romans 1:18-27 as well as 1 Corinthians 6:9 reveal homosexuality is still a sin in the New Testament.

Also understand that the laws of the Old Testament fell under three categories:

1. Man’s relationship with God
2. Man’s relationships with each other
3. Avoiding things that are harmful

Homosexuality would fall under man’s relationships with each other while shellfish and pork would fall under things that are harmful.

Another thing one must understand about the law of the Old Testament is that is essentially reveals that we cannot live by it and therefore need a Savior. That is why those who lived under Old Testament law had to continually offer sacrifices and offerings for their sins but now that Jesus Christ has sacrificed Himself as the ultimate and final sacrifice, we are under grace.

A good example of this is that homosexuals were killed in the Old Testament, now they can repent and be forgiven.

This is all head knowledge to you however, Morse. You being atheist can never truly understand the mysteries of God as they have not been revealed to you.

Also not to discredit your arguments but wasn’t the original post really designed to explore what Jesus would do if invited to a gay wedding and a Christian as well and not people who are non-Christians?
Posted by Polycarp on July 16, 2008 at 1:44 pm

No, you should not participate in a decision to rebel against God. You can minister to them about the compassion and righteousness of Christ without taking pleasure in their sin. Would you wish them godspeed? Would you wish them a happy life?
Posted by What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding? « Suddenly Christian « The Church of Jesus Christ on July 16, 2008 at 1:46 pm

[...] What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding? « Suddenly Christian What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding? « Suddenly Christian. [...]
Posted by anita on July 16, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Heather

Anita, you seem like a very nice person (and a gifted writer) So, I hope you won’t be offended by my questions. I’m just curious and trying to figure life out. Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? And, if so, how do you reconcile your lifestyle – which God clearly does not approve of – with your faith?

Mmmmm…Am I a Christian? Yes, I’ve had a personal relationship God through Christ since I was five years old. I would have thought when I wrote “I am His and He is mine isn’t up to majority rule. That was settled along time ago. Up a hill. On a cross. In an empty grave” that would have been clear but I’m more than willing to say it again. Yes, I follow Christ and no other.

How do I reconcile my lifestyle with my faith? Easily. My lifestyle is similar to the one my Christian parents and grandparents imparted to me from my earliest days. My priorities, commitments, and behaviors whether at home, at church, and in the world, I pray speak more to my faith in Christ than to my economic status, my gender, my race, or my sexual orientation.

But returning to John’s question, “what would Jesus do if invited to a gay wedding?” I’m interested to know why those of you who say no, do so in light of Jesus’ continual attendance at the table of sinners and outcasts. Since you believe homosexuality is sin, how does that prohibit Jesus from responding to gays/lesbians in the same way that he did with prostitutes and tax collectors? Could you possibly just keep your response to that question because I’d very much like to know the rational for such a position in light of the witness of Jesus’ example. Thanks
Posted by anita on July 16, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Heather, I didn’t comment on your opening and very kind words to me. I want you to know I received them as genuine and thank you for them. Anita again….and again….and again….and…
Posted by arlywn on July 16, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I didnt know we were discussing you and gods relationship Anita, I was merely pointing out IF we were, then a lot of people would condemn you to hell. Nothing wrong with that- I’ll be there, morse will probably be there. But since we’re not…

I was pointing out how much that doesnt change my opinion of you. I thought you were cool, and I still think you’re cool. your relationship reference doesnt change who you are. or make you a bad person, or a person that has blonde hair, or… 5 foot 7.

so to recap…. you’re cool, and im not questioning you, they are… *points toward mobbers* over there..

and I dont frequent bars. I just go to their fish fry’s and get my mom to see if she can get someone to fix my car. lol.
Posted by anita on July 16, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Oh Arlywn, I didn’t take you as saying anything negative at all, and I was totally joking about the whole bar thing. This kind of misunderstanding is what a sarcastic humor will sometimes get me.

I’m cool. You’ll cool. It’s getting downright chilly in here!
Posted by arlywn on July 16, 2008 at 2:58 pm

then we can party with the polar bears!
Posted by Spike on July 16, 2008 at 3:16 pm

The original question is “What would Jesus do if he was invited to a gay wedding?”

We know that Jesus attended weddings. We know that weddings are typically held in churches. We know that when the money changers “turn God’s house into a den of thieves” Jesus was outraged and turned over tables.

Do you suppose that Jesus would sit there and smile and wink at the sin? No, I really don’t think so. What did he say to the adulteress after the last accuser dropped his stone? ” Go and sin no more”

You can cherry-pick, twist and preach the false doctrine of tolerance all you want. Jesus is a just and righteous God. He does not condone sin.

“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22

“…Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:26-27

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can’t help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.
Posted by indecisivenerd on July 16, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Jesus said in Mark 9:43: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.” Now body parts do not actually make us sin, therefore, Jesus must be talking about the “body parts” in our lives, that is, activities we choose to do and friends we have. I am not saying that your friends are forcing you towards homosexuality, nor that they are any worse christians, if they are. If you feel that your friends sin is influencing you, Jesus tells you to sever your connection. However, otherwise you should show love and go to the wedding. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and your friends are your neighbors.
Posted by Morse on July 16, 2008 at 3:33 pm

“You can cherry-pick, twist and preach the false doctrine of tolerance all you want. Jesus is a just and righteous God. He does not condone sin.”

But he does create arbitrary rules. Well, not completely arbitrary. Rules about stuff that is viewed as ‘icky’ isn’t completely arbitrary.
Posted by Andy on July 16, 2008 at 3:58 pm

I didn’t have the energy to read all of the replies so if I end up restating something that was already said I apologize.

First off, you might not regard my opinion very much since I am a gay man. It seems like you are a smart man though and probably will take it into consideration.

I grew up in a baptist home and had always been told homosexuality was wrong. The issue of gay marriage has come up and I have asked my dad if he would attend my wedding if it was legal. I expected him to be against it, but he said he would. He doesn’t agree with it, but he still wants to support me with what makes me happy. I personally know that I would have taken great offense if he had told me know. Jesus told love. If you can’t show your support for people that have fallen in love and want to show everyone then it’s tough to think you should be a friend. If you hold things against them it’s easy for someone to hold something like this against you as well.

I think you seem to be a smart man and came up with a good conclusion. This is something that obviously means a lot to them and if you dismiss it then you lose that chance to have good interaction with them.
Posted by José Honesto on July 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm

If they are your friends and know what you believe and think about it, because you have mentioned to them, they would understand your absence. Attending the wedding would mean that you aprove their behaviour. You should love them sincerely, from the heart, so if they value your friendship they would understand you and wouldn’t be expecting you to “betray” your beliefs for their sake.
Be a witness!
Posted by Danielle on July 16, 2008 at 5:10 pm

One of my dearest friends is preparing for marriage next June to a wonderful young man who is absolutely perfect for her. She asked me to be her maid of honor and I accepted. However, I don’t think they should be married when they’re planning. For various reasons, including maturity, I feel the ceremony should be postponed 2-3 yrs. But I still agreed to participate.
Why? Because I love her too deeply. I know that if I had declined, she would feel to her core that I didn’t value our relationship despite my attempts to convince her otherwise; that I couldn’t look past my own issue/agenda and simply act out of love for her.
When the minister asks who objects to the union, I’ll be silent. Why? I love her and I want her to know it. I also want her to know that when times get hard there won’t be an “I told you so” waiting for her. That instead there will be a loving friend full of grace and compassion ready to lend an ear, a shoulder, and a helping hand.
Why should we no longer be concerned with displays of love because we disapprove of a “lifestyle” (and I use that quite loosely as one’s way of life is generally dependent on more than who they are/not having sex with; which is, quite frankly, not my business) that someone else has? If our love, when expressed, is not interpreted as love, then it is not, by definition, love. Intentions have no bearing. We must speak the love language of those we are addressing or our love is invalid and void. I think God clearly demonstrates this for us, most notably through the person of Jesus Christ.
I would argue that our Christian duty does not involve drawing lines at all. Our Christian duty is to love the Lord our God with every fiber of our heart, mind, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Spelled out for us it is to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God. This is the harmony of the testaments. We cannot exclude either of the first two and claim to keep the last.
For the reasons I’ve stated, I believe my Christianity dictates that I would have to attend my gay friend’s wedding. Not only as a testament to my love to him as a friend, or of Christ’s unfailing love to him as a person, but as a demonstration of my committed love to Christ. For me to not attend would be a denial of all three. But do what God instructs you to do.
Posted by Candace on July 16, 2008 at 5:37 pm

@Danielle

“If our love, when expressed, is not interpreted as love, then it is not, by definition, love. Intentions have no bearing. We must speak the love language of those we are addressing or our love is invalid and void.”

I had little problem with what you wrote, but you may want to re-examine this (quoted above). In my opinion that is flat-out incorrect. Many, many instances come to mind in which very loving action may not be interpreted as love by the recipient. Much of how God himself intereacts with us can feel distinctly unloving, yet it is perfectly so. Children often feel unloved by their parents when the parents are being as loving as can possibly be. Intentions have all the bearing in the WORLD.

The sentiment reflected in that quote is new age psycho-babble, and for some reason I just could not let it pass.
Posted by Heather on July 16, 2008 at 6:39 pm

I truly don’t think that Jesus would attend a gay wedding. Some posters have made the argument that Jesus hung out with sinners of all sorts. This is true. But He didn’t participate or even stand by and observe them in their sins……. He didn’t watch the prostitutes turn tricks. He didn’t stand by and watch the tax collectors or the money changers cheat people. He didn’t allow the men to stone the adulterous women. And He wouldn’t stand by and watch two people make a mockery of the institution that He created to be between a man and a woman.
Posted by Danielle on July 16, 2008 at 8:13 pm

@Candace

I do consider myself to be progressive and I am studying to be a psychologist, so that’s probably why my comment came across in the way you described. The following is an excerpt from a post I wrote on the expression of love. Hopefully, it will allow you to better see where I am coming from.

“…that discussion made me think about how important it is communicate to others on their level. which would include loving them in a way that they would be able to interpret as loving. basically, speak the love-language of the person you’re trying to love, not your own. now, i’m going to define love as placing another’s interests, desires, and emotions above your own. with that definition i would argue that loving someone in the way that you choose regardless of how they will interpret your actions is not true love, but selfishness b/c you haven’t put them before yourself.
with that said, i think that one should choose to love a person in a way that they would see as loving. this doesn’t mean that you have to pretend to agree with whatever decision they made or try to ignore the issue altogether. your opinion and beliefs should definitely be made known (while employing a tremendous amount of tact). but, after they know where you stand, love and support them in ways they see as loving and supportive. don’t add insult to injury. if your sister comes home pregnant, or your brother’s out boozing, or your best friend comes out of the closet, let them know where your convictions lie and of your concern for them, then tell them you still love them, and finally, prove it. go to lamaaze (sp?) classes with your sister; hang out with your brother (in alcohol-free situations); meet your friend’s significant other. they know you don’t approve of what they’re doing (trust me, they do know), but now they know that you still love them. and that’s the most important thing. if they aren’t assured of your love, they won’t open up to you or come to you for help, and then you’ll have missed your opportunity to make a difference. after all, you’ll catch more flies with honey.
above all, remember that while you were yet a sinner, Christ loved you without any merit of your own. and that while God told us of His disapproval of our sins, He told us He still loved us, and then He proved it by sending His perfect Son to die for us. He showed his love to us in our love-language.”

Also, you mentioned that we don’t always interpret God’s acts as loving, yet they always are. And that’s very true; however, in that situation One of the individuals involved is perfect and the essence of love. His ways are higher than ours, and often we cannot readily comprehend how they are loving, we just know they are. When dealing with fellow humans, we have two imperfect forms of communication occurring, hence the need for us to be aware of and concerned with the perception of our actions.
This is my opinion; it’s how I choose to live life. We may not agree, but, in my mind, that’s okay since God didn’t save either of us to become like the other. Sorry for the epistle of an explanation.
Posted by Danielle on July 16, 2008 at 8:25 pm

@Heather

For your consideration: the story of Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10). Christ voluntarily abode at Zacchaeus’ house without any call for repentance or proclamation of condemnation. The Pharisees saw and commented “That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner” (KJV).

Also, I think the examples you gave are irrelevant. I’m pretty certain that John is not planning on accompanying his friends on their honeymoons to observe or engage. He’ll be passively filling a seat. And I don’t believe the people involved will be trying to make a mockery of anything. I’m sure they’re very serious in their decision to commit to one another for life.
Posted by Missing the Point « A True Believer’s Blog on July 16, 2008 at 8:42 pm

[...] Shore, always worth the time to read, had a great post on a different gay marriage-related issue, which finally drove me to write this one. The comments [...]
Posted by Delphine on July 16, 2008 at 9:16 pm

I have a niece that is gay and no I would not go. I don’t support it I love her but I’m not going to put myself where people will look at me and ask why I would support that kind of behavior.
It is what it is sin but supporting that sin is wrong.
Posted by arlywn on July 17, 2008 at 4:56 am

question here….

I was under the impression that God and jesus were 2 seperate people until jesus died. So its confusing when people reference stuff that he did or said or saw or what ever. Jesus didnt make marriage- he supported gods decree about it. Jesus didnt write the commandments- god did.

jesus supported his father because he loved him and believed in him. Which… if you think about it is all anyone is asking in this situation. Johns friends arent asking him to be gay, or to participate- but to love them and believe in them. By attending an event that they are holding.
Posted by needle on July 17, 2008 at 5:17 am

Sir,

I must admit to my own bias on this issue– I am a lesbian myself– but I do have a short story to tell. I have no desire to argue with these others– I have spent way too much time trying to convince my friends that I can be both Christian and gay, and my heart has been too weary to read most of your comments, especially the ones in capslock.

My close friend B. has a brother, F., who is gay and in a committed relationship. About two years ago, F. had a commitment ceremony in his affirming church and married a wonderful man, even though this was not a legally binding ceremony. B. chose not to go, in order to show her condemnation of his lifestyle; they were not reconciled for over a year. He was very hurt by her refusal to attend and I don’t think their relationship has been the same since, even though B. acknowledges that F. is clearly a better candidate to raise his daughter than her estranged mother, and she loves her niece very much.

About a year ago, B. herself married a wonderful man, and F. chose to attend the ceremony. He wasn’t asked to participate in the wedding, even though he was her brother, because of his lifestyle (this is what she told me). In my opinion, F. did the more godly thing by loving his sister enough to attend her wedding, even if she did not extend him the same courtesy. Even today their relationship is strained, all because B. holds to these old ideas about homosexuality and what it means to be Christian. He can no longer see God’s love in her– and I don’t blame him. I can’t either. B. and I are estranged as well.

I don’t know if that helps you or not, but I thought it would be nice to share. Making this decision cannot be easy. I wish you luck.
Posted by Spike on July 17, 2008 at 5:32 am

Arlywn,
If you examine the scriptures you’ll find that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one. Jesus was with God in the beginning, the world was made with him and through him. It is a sin so horrific that you cannot inherit the kingdom of God (heaven) A sin that brought down Sodom and Gomorrah (where we get the word sodomy)

Consider the following verses from both the Old and New Testaments.

1) Lev. 18:22 – “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

2) Lev. 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

3) Romans 1:26-27 – “26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

4) 1 Cor. 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

5) 1 Tim. 1:9-10 – “We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts (perverts is the word for Homosexual offenders), for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine”

Homosexuality is not the unparondable sin. It is a sin like any other sin. However, Scripture is clear that it is sin. It is also clear that one cannot practice a homosexual lifestyle (even a monogamous one) and be a Christian. Those who practice such a lifestyle are listed among those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Posted by Morse on July 17, 2008 at 5:42 am

Spike,

I always find it interesting when people quote the bible about homosexuality. Because nowhere in any of those quotes does it say WHY homosexuality is bad. It just is. No explanation, no break down, no demonstration of its harm.

Now, if you could come up with a good reason, I bet more people would agree with you.
Posted by Mike (FVThinker) Burns on July 17, 2008 at 5:51 am

Wow! A busy, busy thread John!
And here we see, happily displayed by some of the commenters, the insidiousness of dogma. So many are willing to demonize a segment of society…to hate…on nothing but dogma. To be blunt; I find it pathetic that some try to come off as liberal and loving and progressive with the “love the sinner, hate the sin” crap. By calling it a sin, one victimizes a person or people. Once someone creates a victim with their beliefs, then I find it immaterial what good those beliefs hold for the believer. My allegiance is with the victim.

Here is a brief article nicely summarizing the actual research on the origins of homosexuality. http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/born-gay

One study that it mentions is as follows:

William Reiner, a psychiatrist at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, explored the question of environmental influences on sexuality with a group that had been surgically shifted from boys to girls. These boys had been born with certain genital deformities; because it is easier to fashion a vagina than a penis, the boys were surgically made into girls at birth. In many cases they were raised as girls, kept in the dark about the surgery, and thought themselves female long into adulthood. Invariably, Reiner found that the faux females ended up being attracted to women. If societal nudging was what made men gay, at least one of these boys should have grown up to be attracted to men. There is no documented case of that happening.

It is pretty well understood (outside of theistic circles) that homosexuality is not a choice. Those of your readers that want to make victims under the banner of their faith lose any chance of seeing any respect or compassion from me.
Posted by John Henderson on July 17, 2008 at 6:05 am

When you go is more a question of what you do with Christ once you are there. If you hold Him up, you are in the right place.
Posted by arlywn on July 17, 2008 at 6:15 am

3) Romans 1:26-27 – “26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

I have a problem with this quote Spike. Specifically this part.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

Because of WHAT exactly? If you would be so kind to quote the begining of this, so that I may know. Right now it sounds like God created homosexuals. So, if its bad why create it?

And if you say that he did not create homosexuals- then pray tell, tell me why you bothered quoting that sentence since it doesnt prove your case? Oh, and where is the free will in that sentence?
Posted by Tamara on July 17, 2008 at 6:26 am

The last time I was so depressed reading a blog, it was the debate on an atheist website about whether or not schools should teach intelligent design. My husband had to ask me to stop reading it because it was affecting my attitude. What I think is that Satan is having a good laugh at how bothered we are all getting. Aren’t the foes the principalities of darkness? Regardless of what each person thinks, that should not cause divisiveness between fellow Christians. Each person makes and is responsible for their own choices. If we argue and argue and maybe even change someone’s mind, it’s still that person that has to give account. Not the peanut gallery.
Posted by Candace on July 17, 2008 at 6:33 am

I have a beloved friend whose opinion on this I was interested in, so I filled him in on the discussion here. This friend is the godliest, most spirit-filled man I’ve ever met. Until I knew him, I did not know the meaning of the word “integrity”, nor of the word “service”. Nor of the word “love”, for that matter. A preacher’s kid, who loves the Lord with a depth and passion I’ve seen displayed in maybe 3 people over the entire course of my life. (We’re both 51.) He also happens to be the (earthly) person most responsible for my own conversion, and he literally saved my life.

So we had this chat back and forth (via e-mail, as he lives in another state), examining all the sides of the debate, pretty much as reflected in the comments here. As it wound down, I asked him what he’d do if he was invited to the wedding of a gay friend.

Here’s his answer: “I’d go and treat them exactly as I would my musician friends, cop friends, and amputee friends — I’d load up on gay jokes for the reception.”

Not a drop of pharisee in that guy. And I wanna be like him. Because of everyone I know, he is the most like Jesus.
Posted by ANNA on July 17, 2008 at 7:05 am

@ Spike ,,the world hated Jesus and he said in the book of John,that for us not to be worried,they would and will hate you,speaking to his disciples,so we just have to share to wonderful word of Jesus Christ to those whom will accept it. God does not and will never ever need to prove anything to anyone,he gave us his word as a road map to Heaven,and if we will accept him as our pesonal savior.Yes he did go to old rugged cross to died for our sins. And that means we die daily to sin.It does not say we dont have things in our lives we work on.My prayer for all of these people are that one day God will open their eyes. But they have to be a willing vessel.
Posted by Reed Swanson on July 17, 2008 at 7:11 am

The thing that gives me pause is that many at the wedding could be struggling with whether or not it was “right” in the eyes of God. If you are seen as a “true Christian” in the eyes of those who are struggling or unsure, your presence might seen as approval or affirmation.

“Speaking the truth in love,” is what we are called to do as Christians. To go to the wedding without expressing any reservations, seems to be clearly sacrificing the truth to show your “love.” That I would argue is not love at all. Could you attend the reception and not the ceremony? In that way you could show your friends that you care, without compromising the truth and faith you believe.
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 7:25 am

What would Jesus do? Well, what did he do concerning the woman caught in adultery? Did he accuse her? No. Was he angry or hateful toward her? No. Did he judge her? No. He simply said that her sins were forgiven, go and sin no more. Did he “hang out” with her? I doubt it. Did he hang out with other sinners? I doubt it, unless they were actually or actively following him, as the disciples (sinners) did. Mary Magdalene was a forgiven sinner, who as far as we know had stopped sinning, who chose to follow Jesus, so yes they “hung out.”

Is a homosexual marriage valid in God’s and Jesus’ eyes? I don’t believe it is. Would they silently validate it if they attended? I could be wrong, but it seems like it. A response of silence usually indicates approval.

BTW, marriage by traditional definition, is not only a commitment of the 2 individuals to each other, but also to the offspring they create.

I don’t know John’s conviction concerning the sinfulness of homosexuality, but assuming he considers it sin, surely his friends understand that and would understand, while loving them, he could not bring himself to attend their “wedding.” That’s most likely how I would want to explain myself to them for not attending.
Posted by John S. on July 17, 2008 at 7:31 am

Oh! The Bliss! The Joy! that God enjoys. It comes from being true to Himself…He is one in himself, Three in One, not contrary to Himself…no flaws, nothing lacking, no imperfections…HE IS HOLY!!!
We too enjoy the joy of the LORD as well by the force of His integrity. When the character and attributes of God are magnified, truth is revealed and we are truly set free.
God hates sin because he loves His own name. And truly there is no rational, that cannot NOT celebrate His worthiness. There is another reason that God hates sin: Sin is by nature is destructive to sinners–not to God or to His reputation because He is untouchable–God hates sin because He loves us. If the fame of the LORD is diminished so is our joy–our hope hinges on the day that God is truly exposed-the one unique true God being true to Himself making all things in the end, right!
To the topic at hand, your own or my presence/absence is not going to diminish the name of the LORD. I think though, that attendance to a gay or lesbian wedding would send a mixed message of blessing. The receiver needs to filter out: “I love you” and “God loves you” but “God hates what you are doing.” God is one in Himself and we are made one with God by the authority of Jesus Christ. And this union of God and His people is made holy because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ which covers our iniquities. God clearly comdemms same sex marriage because He knows it to be harmful to us, to society, to the human race, and because His love for us-He consequently has reserved His wrath to destroying sin and those who cling to it.
Ask yourself, “to whom shall I give honor to?” The more to Christ Jesus! In one way or another the name of the Lord will be invoked on such of an occassion…should you be there, being linked with Christ in connection of an invocation of blessings to the name of the LORD…upon an unholy union? Or, should you make Christ connecting God to condonig homosexuality? I think the message should be: Fear the LORD God for He is Holy. Love can be the hardest thing to do, outside of our own selves it is truly is foriegn to us. Thank God! He is HOLY! He is unique. He is LOVE! Thank God, our Benefactor, our Savior and for his Gifts. For Jesus who saves! For the Holy Spirit who quickens and enables us.
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 7:44 am

Arlywn–here ya go. I believe the key verse is 23. They exchanged the image of God in which they were created for a corruptible image they created for themselves, even though they know God.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Charles
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 17, 2008 at 8:03 am

I don’t know how often this occurs in modern wedding ceremonies, but it used to be customary for the person conducting the ceremony to say, “If anyone can show just cause why this couple should not be married, let him speak now or forever hold his peace.” I suppose that would be the appropriate moment for those who object to Gay marriages to “speak the truth in love,” as it were.

Or perhaps it’s just as well that you stay home.
Posted by arlywn on July 17, 2008 at 8:07 am

First, thank you Mr. Horton. Im in the middle of class and dont have access to a bible, otherwise I’d have looked it up myself.

it sounds as if he got angry that no one believed in him and his power. And since all he had done was there for them to see, they didnt have any excuse to sin. By saying they understood what god had said, they in reality became foolish and ignorant by what he really meant. Instead of referring god as he is, they took god and replaced him with man’s image and flaws and such. Twisting what he had said, and making it okay to sin. So because we twisted what he meant and what he said he not only made us want to sin, but he created the desire to be homosexual.

that was my interpretation of the quotes that Spike and Mr. Horton were kind enough to give me.

now, for something new. If he inflickted people with being homosexual then why is everyone not a homosexual? Becuase it sounds like he just said homosexuals are born this way. If thats the case then they have no control over this and it makes him sound worse because he’s supposed to love everyone and if makes some a sin, and he hates sins…. then hes discriminating and making it so that everyone cant be loved. Right?

* not trying to offend anyone, I’m trying to understand where the christians arguement is coming from, and since everyone quotes the bible, then I’m trying to understand the thought process of the bible quotes. *
Posted by ric booth on July 17, 2008 at 8:12 am

Way to go John. As you can see, I am behind as well. I had to work at work this week. Anywho, I think Anita said it more eloquently in her comment but here’s my Ric-Notes version:

Who am I to say who is worthy of my presence and my love, when Jesus the Christ himself condescended to be with me?
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 9:04 am

This sure is one of those ?’s where Christians have to agree to disagree. It’s a real tough one for me because I want to be able to love people, including sinners, as Jesus loves me. But for the sake of food for thought:

Assuming you believe homosexuality is sin, how would you react to the idea of hanging out with bank robbers while they plot their next job, especially if they invite you to come and party with them while they make their plans? Most Christians would probably decline the invitation. But I suppose new Christians who used to rob banks could handle it…. or should they? What does love require in this case?

I don’t believe God inflicted homosexuality on anyone. Some may be attracted to it, but that doesn’t mean God put it on them. I used to be fully and actively attracted to certain things that I now know are unacceptable to God. The only way I could overcome them was to first believe that they were unacceptable to him. After that came a very long process of prayer, meditation, Bible study, and constant reminders to myself that I must change my thinking. Over many years, all praise to my dear Lord, he has cleansed me of those things. The love of Christ now moves me to try to help others still stuck in the mire where I used to live, but it does not move me to condone or accept the mire.
Posted by John S. on July 17, 2008 at 9:06 am

A few more thoughts:

God has revealed Himself to us and He has revealed us to ourselves by His table of Truth–I see truth as being absolut because God has said He is Truth, there is none that has any more authority…He is the ultimate nay-sayer. Truth, therefore, is absolute for God being true to himself does not change in character or nature. He cannot lie.
He has revealed also that He is Holy and that we are sinners. There is more than a chasim of differences between us. Sinners are not true to themselves -
Jeremiah 17:9
“ The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
And if they love themselve it is out of vanity, (having nothing useful or nothing good in of themselves). There is no merit or saving grace in the human condition. There is nothing within us that is useful to God. And Because of our desparation, being useless, God sent Jesus Christ.
Another revelation is that sinners love sin, so very much more different from God who hates sin and its destructive power.
Sinners love darkness because of the illusion that their sin is hidden.
This is why I argue that Love is so foriegn to us because we are so different from God.
God’s institution of one man and one woman is to be a mirror reflection of His own Holy union, God with God, one with Himself manifested in the trinity, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. This image is to be manifested as “the twain shall become one flesh”… on the physical plane it is obvious, but on the spiritual plane, on the plane that God is, it is more apparent when two souls become so intertwined that they become indistinguishable. That being said the intertwining can be God-like or sinner-like. We are truly bonded to the oneness of God when the blood of Christ is applied, therefore God can be true to himself, or we can deceive ourselves with human bonding when we justify sin.
Part of that deceipt is when we think we understand what love is. We love others because they can return love to us. It is easy to sacrifice when we think we will receive something in return, even if it as useless as a legacy. For if Christ left us a legacy of His good virtues, ALONE, even though that has influenced our behavior, it is not enough to make us acceptable to God. Thank God that He shed His power cleansing blood that pays for our shortfall and transfer His righteousness to our account. Even though, we plumb the depths of love with selfless sacrifice it is still foriegn to us because of the way God has loved. God gave his most precious possession, Himself, to obtain the most useless thing, us.
For all this rambling, (unschooled theologin), this is probably a pretty weak argument for my opinion, but I think that the love of a homosexual is based on the love of self. Self that denies the desparate condition that we in ourselves cannot please anyone but ourselves, let alone God-it impossible without Christ. A condition that is focused on self. Disregards God. Homesexuality is so unlike God, it does not demonstrate in any form his character because it is self-centered. Not whit standing that hetrosexual unions are any better, but they can mirror the likeness of God when they are made one in Christ Jesus as God has intended.
Posted by Polycarp on July 17, 2008 at 9:18 am

Wow, so many opinions and so many false ideas. To read through all of them would take some time, but to Morse. Homosexuality is deemed a sin because it does away with the intended point of marriage, and the mystery that surrounds it as a sign of Christ and the Church.

To someone else who liked homosexual marriage to not being mature enough…are you kidding me? Honestly, being immature in a mature can be fixed when the couple grows together. Gay marriage is itself entirely wrong and can never be fixed from within.
Posted by Morse on July 17, 2008 at 9:44 am

Polycarp:

So should couples who intend to have no children not be allowed to marry? Couples who can’t, biologically, have children…what about them?

Horton:

Are you seriously equating homosexuality with bank robbing? Is your world completely void of shades of gray?
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 10:21 am

Morse,

The only way I am relating homosexuality and bank robbing is, and note my qualifier-”Assuming you believe that homosexuality is sin”- that homosexuality and stealing are both sin. That is the connection. Of course, if you believe that homosexuality is not sin, then the entire discussion needs to shift away from the topic of homosexual marriage to “is homosexuality sin?” another topic that seems to divide people who call Jesus their Savior.

Re your response to Polycarp, I would just say that God’s intention (in Genesis) is that a man leave his parents’ family and become one with a woman, creating a new family. There are exceptions to this, such as when Jesus and Paul talked about the few who would abstain from sex activity altogether, men and women, in order to devote the whole of their lives to the serving him and the Kingdom of God.

(BTW, I’m not Catholic. You can abstain from sex without being a nun or a priest for the sake of serving God more thoroughly. You can also have a husband or wife and serve God more than someone who abstains ) )
Posted by Morse on July 17, 2008 at 10:42 am

Horton,

And my comment was in regards to you, seemingly, saying that there are no levels to sin. Taking god’s name in vain is on par with murder. Rape is the same as working on Sunday.

Are you really saying that? I sure hope not.
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 17, 2008 at 11:55 am

Morse, it’s become increasingly obvious to me that some people become so wrapped up in their black and white moral precepts that they’ve absolved themselves of any genuinely HUMAN desire to make good value judgments.

Heather said, “I don’t understand this, but it is God’s word and I accept it.” I think this is a very telling comment, because we SHOULD be able to understand it, just as we understand why The Golden Rule is what all of civil law boils down to. We don’t murder, steal, bear false witness, or even betray the trust of our spouses, because we would not want to be similarly treated.

So when someone says, “Love and commitment in a Straight relationship is good, but love and commitment in a Gay relationship is bad,” I’m left scratching my head. And for someone to follow that up by saying, “I don’t understand it, I just accept it,” to me seems almost a complete renunciation of what makes us human.
Posted by ANNA on July 17, 2008 at 11:57 am

@ Morse , am still praying for you !!! love ya Anna
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 11:58 am

What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding?

Bring a good bottle of Chardonnay and flowers for the bride. Both of them.
Posted by ANNA on July 17, 2008 at 12:04 pm

@ anita, hey I just wanted to ask, back in your comments earlier,you had said that your family (Mom & Dad) didnot approve of your lifesyle?Why,,,cause if your saved and going to Heaven,why does that bother them? Cause our goal is to make Heaven our home,not sure why they dont approve of you?
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Morse,

I agree–there are low-level and high-level crimes and sins. What I am talking about is sin in general–the desire to put one’s own desires over and above what God wants us humans to live by. More specifically, for example, the robber on the cross and the adulteress caught in the act were both sinners. Jesus spoke to them both about their sin with forgiveness. Jesus loved them in spite of their sin, even though he didn’t condone their sin. And hey, the angels in heaven rejoice when somebody recognizes their sin and repents.

OK so yeah, everybody is a sinner of one type of sin or another. Personally, I believe that homosexuality fits into that category. The Bible speaks quite clearly to me about it. But it is only one of all the many sins that God wants us to overcome by learning his definitions of right and wrong rather than simply to go with what seems to us as right or wrong. Oftentimes what seems right and wrong to us is obviously right in line with what God outlines in the Bible as sinful. Other times, our idea and his idea about sin don’t jibe. This is where the difficulty arises, when you have to decide what you believe God is saying. When this happens, sometimes you have to do research and get scholarly, but in our case, homosexuality, I think the Bible speaks clearly about God’s view of it. Again, in no way does this mean he despises gay people. Christians who do despise them are way out of line. But surely you can understand that to force homosexuality on someone who strongly believes in its sinfulness is asking for big problems. And to put homosexuality in the same light as heterosexual marriage is going to be grossly untenable to many people. (What it does do, though, is help those who would despise to learn that they must overcome that as well-that is, if they hunger and thirst after righteousness!)

Look, the wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23. Same thing in Ezekiel 18 and elsewhere. All sin earns us that penalty regardless of its level. So when God said to Abraham, and Jesus says to us, “Be perfect as your father is,” he’s just saying “hey, you’ve got a whole lifetime to recognize your sin. Don’t worry about it, I love you. Start seeking me and I’ll help you to work out of it.” Don’t forget, this is a temporary life in preparation for the real life–the next and never-ending life. God’s grace and kindness forgives all our sin. That’s why he got up there and subjected himself to being beaten to a pulp and dying for us. We just need to know what the sin is and why he died, and then take little steps, seeking God, to help us draw closer to him as we overcome our proclivity to go away from him.

The items in the 10 commandments are real clear. Others are not so clear, but the more we know God, the closer we get to him, the more we hunger and thirst for his righteousness, the more we seek the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, the better understanding we can have about the things that ARE the Kingdom of God, as well as the things that are not a part of it. And he promises to help us overcome the parts that don’t fit. I think that all sin comes from our misuse or wrong choices concerning the free will God gives us that lead us away from rather than toward God. In my view, a la Romans 1, homosexuality points very far away from God.

But as John Shore says, to err on the side of love might well be preferable to losing the friendship. On the other hand, the Proverbs instruct us to be careful about who we choose to be friends with. I guess what it all boils down to is, Is homosexuality sin? If it is, then you know how God feels about it. From there, how close can you be to it before you say No, I don’t want to be around it? And when a person gets closer to that line than he/she can bear, then its probably time to find other friends.
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Anna,

My parents believe as do many of the people on this list, that homosexuality is a sin and so it’s caused them to worry about my salvation, despite being fully aware that I continue to love and follow Christ and that my faith is central to everything in my life. It creates a conflict for those who are Christians, have been taught that homosexuality’s a sin and yet also know the character and faith of their gay loved ones. Either everything about their family member is a falsehood and a lie or what they’ve come to believe about homosexuality might in fact be wrong. Family and friends of gay people also live with the effects of the churches ostracizing of gays and lesbian Christians.

And by the way, my mom and I had one of those mother-daughter conversations a couple weeks ago and while she still believes homosexuality is sinful, she any longer worries about my future, in this life or any other. She knows well of my commitment to my faith and how it is that I live my life rather than believing the supposed lifestyle others project on gays and lesbians. Hopefully that answers your question
Posted by hktelemacher on July 17, 2008 at 1:06 pm

It seems extremely bizarre to me that you have such a wide variety of Christians who fall on different sides of the issue. I attend a United Methodist church, yet I am certain that a wide variety of Christians would look at my beliefs and say either that I am not a Christian at all, or that I am going to hell (for reasons other than homosexuality, as I am not a homosexual, which I normally would not point out except to clarify for the purpoaes of this thread).

As an example, I flat-out reject the assertion that God will make material distinction between two roughly equal people because one is Christian and one is not. There is no way, no how that a God of justice and fairness and love utilizes that single factor as a decision-maker. It is such an inherently abhorrent concept that flies in the face of anything rational, and any such premise of religious exclusivity has been the cause of so much of the society’s pain since its inception.

What do I believe Jesus would do? I go back to Heather @ 125 who said “He didn’t watch the prostitutes turn tricks.” to which I would inquire as to whether in this particular ceremony would the homosexual sex take place before or after the exchange of vows?

Jesus would go. He would break bread with them. He would influence people by his example, that you treat others as you would have them treat you. That you beat your swords into plowshares (symbolically) by putting aside your hate and tilling with love. Jesus did not fish for men (and women) by condemnation, or through prideful excess.

Then again, so many things about contemporary Christianity (megachurches, the slavery to money, the use of Government force to enforce “Christian” doctrine, among other things) would offend the Jesus I interpret from the Bible, some days I figure it would just be best to renounce organized religion in its entirety, and spend Sunday mornings in quiet reflection in my back yard.
Posted by ANNA on July 17, 2008 at 1:10 pm

@Mr.Horton ,,very well said, you know Mr.Horton, Jesus told the adulter in the bible,your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more,so that to me means we can go in forgiveness and sin no more,,am I right? Jesus said it!!! So I think when a homosexual,that asks Jesus in to their heart, they at that time go and substain from that way of life..All we can do at this point in this whole blog is pray God open our eyes,,
Posted by Charles Horton on July 17, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Sounds good to me Anna! You gotta know what it is that Jesus forgives before you know the value of the forgiveness. And I think the Bible tells it all to us. Bless you Anna. Excuse me while I go and pray. Thanks!
Posted by ANNA on July 17, 2008 at 1:42 pm

@MR.Horton,,,have a Great prayer with the Father…God knows my heart I truly love & pray for everyone of you (Morse)God Loves you very much !!!!

@ Anita, sorry for just not getting all of that,,the first part sorta contradicts the last part,,,, God bless you & your Mom am sure she’s a great Mom,,,,not that your not a great person. Have a Great evening******
Posted by Candace Ware on July 17, 2008 at 1:47 pm

What is coming across as kind of curious to me, especially from the Christians commenting here, is that the terms “sin” and “sinner” seem primarily — overwhelmingly — directed at someone else.

And that we as a group are so focused on parsing out every nuance of it all, when — if I have it right — Jesus died so we wouldn’t have to be hung up on this anymore. To absolve everyone who believed in His name from the effects of all sin, past present and future.

I can hardly make it 5 minutes without sinning. Every direction I turn, I’m bumping into my own sin. If you all were being honest, you’d admit YOU DO TOO. We all do. (Ah-ah — catch yourself! Did you just start to think in terms of yourself not being as bad as those “other” people? For shame!)

The whole point of “law” and of the 10 commandments is to show us, without any wiggle room at all, that ALL of us are doomed without the grace of God. Lost and dead, without the Gift of Jesus’ substitutionary atonement.

So every last one of you who is displaying that all too familiar heart of stone, that sanctimonious attitude of others being worse sinners than you are — you are all, at the core, right in there with the pharisees, acting all whitewashed on the outside when inside you are as grimy as can be.

Here’s a Bible verse for ya: “Jesus wept.”
Posted by Grace on July 17, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Is this post the one with the most comments yet?

Just curious.
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 3:09 pm

No, I don’t think it is. Maybe. It’s right up there.
Posted by Grace on July 17, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Very interesting.

I’m a Presbyterian, you may recall….lots of diaglogue happening there.
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 4:11 pm

What do I believe Jesus would do? I go back to Heather @ 125 who said “He didn’t watch the prostitutes turn tricks.” to which I would inquire as to whether in this particular ceremony would the homosexual sex take place before or after the exchange of vows?

I seldom laugh out loud at the computer. Until now. He shoots. He scores. Zing.

Jesus would go. He would break bread with them. He would influence people by his example, that you treat others as you would have them treat you. That you beat your swords into plowshares (symbolically) by putting aside your hate and tilling with love. Jesus did not fish for men (and women) by condemnation, or through prideful excess.

HT, it’s virtually impossible for one person to do the wave solo but just so you know there’s a middle-aged woman sitting in her Northern California home in her Mission style recliner, attempting to do just that.
Posted by thebraswells on July 17, 2008 at 4:43 pm

John,

Five years ago I was asked to attend the gay union (marriage equivalent in the state I was living in at the time) of my cousin and his partner. I very much love both of them and was struggling myself over what to do. I had been at one time very close to my cousin (he was like a brother to me) but long before he came out we drifted apart. It was not a shock to me when I was told of his homosexuality, but it grieved me that he had put a wall up around himself and wouldn’t let me in.

Anyway, I prayed and prayed about it and asked God to show me clearly if I should go or not to the wedding (I was leaning toward going at that point and felt sure that God would give me a peace about going). I was browsing my cousin’s church’s website and came across their 3 options of different marriage ceremonies. All of the ceremonies that they used stated that anyone who was there bearing witness was stating by their attendance that they were obligated to bless the couple’s union. When I read that, warning bells went off in my head and I took that as God’s way to let me know that I was not to attend because there was no way that I could bless that union.

I lovingly declined to attend by telling my cousin that I would not be able to make it, but that I loved him and I loved his partner and that I would pray for them and especially on that day.

My cousin and I are still friends, we still love one another and I’ve made it as clear as I can that I love and accept him, but he knows what I believe that the Bible states very clearly – that homosexuality is a sin.

Blessings,
Lori
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 5:23 pm

Okay, now at this point I’m only posting because I want to see this thread hit the 200 comment mark. Come on people, we can do it! I know you all have more to say out there on this topic and if not, we can always subdivide onto other topics of equal import. Here are just a few suggestions but don’t hesitate to offer your own.

“Should Gays be allowed to live in the Bible Belt?”

“What Would Jesus Do If He Saw Christians Paying 4.25 for a Drink at Starbucks While People In Darfur Are Starving?”

“What Would Jesus Do If He Was Invited to Speak in Support of Boycotting McDonalds For Being Too Gay-Friendly?”

“What Would Jesus Say About Fred Phelps?”

“Would Jesus Wear Clothing Made by the Hands of Children in a Third Word Country?”

“What Translation of the Bible Would Jesus Read?”

Candace, Morse, Leif, Ric, Arlywn…I beseech thee.
Posted by ric booth on July 17, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Anita, I love you!
Posted by ric booth on July 17, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Also you rock. Have you read my poem While the World Burned? You and I think alike… from Darfur to Home Depot. You would also like The Rich Young American.
Posted by Bill Chapman on July 17, 2008 at 6:50 pm

JESUS would have exposed them and told them to repent and follow Him….Just John The Baptist exposed Herod, he told him he was sleeping with his brother’s wife and repent….
Posted by Candace on July 17, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Morse, regarding your comment #152 — in a way, from God’s perspective, that is exactly the case.

To a perfect and holy being, ALL sin is equally horrible. That’s where the whole “to look upon a woman with lust is equivalent to adultery” concept comes from. It’s a matter of scale.

It’s a fast, off the cuff, and pretty poor analogy on my part, but say you could assign a “height” to sins. The gravest sin we can imagine might be 12 inches high. The smallest, only half an inch.

But to God, being infinitely tall, well the difference between 1/2 inch and 12 inches is relatively insignificant.

In my understanding, this is what it’s like, anyway. Which I realize will make no sense to you. 17 months and one day ago, it wouldn’t have to me, either.
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Ric, I love you too! In fact, the love is just ridiculously thick around here. And no, while I haven’t yet read your poem, the minute after I click “say it!” I’m jazzin’ over to your corner of the universe to check it out!

Candace said:

The gravest sin we can imagine might be 12 inches high. The smallest, only half an inch.

:::::Looking around the blog to see if anyone is going to dare walk into that minefield of comedy potential::::::

Candace, I totally get what you were saying and amen it all. Seriously. I just know the boys around here and what they’ll jump on for a laugh so please don’t take my smartypants remark as trivializing what you shared and now I’m asking myself if I’m going to this extent to explain myself wouldn’t hitting the backspace just be a whole lot easier but then I answer myself “nah” and click it through.
Posted by anita on July 17, 2008 at 7:46 pm

Ric,

Just read it. Same theme, but a much better beat. I give it a 85. (That’s an American Bandstand reference, FYI.)

And seriously (Weird I feel compelled to qualify whether I’m serious or kidding) I liked it a lot. Actually, I take that back. I didn’t like it. I find the questions the poem raises and the truth it reflects disturbing to say the least. I also HATE that it makes me reflect on my accountability. Shoot.
Posted by Candace on July 17, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Aw, MAAAN, Anita! Now you have posed a challenge, complete with an entire LIST of provocative fodder. And I ahven’t even been home to potty the dogs yet (whiiiine).

Ok, just one tonight, but I am enlisted. We will reach 200 comments, trust me on that!

“Should Gays be allowed to live in the Bible Belt?”

Not just allowed. No, no, that is thinking too small.
I vote for a coordinated, en masse, relocation there.
Go, and love the heck out of all those bible-thumpers.
Decorate. Repair. And for mercy’s sake, straighten them out, fashion-wise.

Could be just the ticket, no? Think about it!

Off to potty my dogs and get some shut-eye (yes, it’s true — I have no internet connection at home. A failed attempt to impose limits on my usage. Just means I’m out late using other people’s computers. Sad, ain’t it?? )
Posted by Candace on July 17, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Oh, drat, Anita. Can you tell I’m tired?

Bad, BAD way to put it. Shoulda used metric!
Posted by Candace on July 17, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Oh, Lord. It’s a sickness. One more:

“Would Jesus Wear Clothing Made by the Hands of Children in a Third Word Country?”

Um, actually? I think there’s a really good chance he did?

Ok, I am gone … the keyboard typed this all by itself, on the leftover energy in the capacitor…
Posted by Skerrib on July 17, 2008 at 9:30 pm

I just wanted to contribute to the reaching of 200. I would still go to a gay friend’s wedding.
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Wow. 200. It just
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:40 pm

seems like such
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:41 pm

an impossible number
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:41 pm

to reach. I can’t even
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:41 pm

imagine how that could
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:41 pm

possibly
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:42 pm

happen without someone
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:42 pm

basically
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:42 pm

going
Posted by John Shore on July 17, 2008 at 9:42 pm

insane.
Posted by Skerrib on July 17, 2008 at 9:45 pm

OOOH, I qualify there.
Posted by hktelemacher on July 17, 2008 at 11:06 pm

Bill @ 172 “JESUS would have exposed them and told them to repent and follow Him….Just John The Baptist exposed Herod, he told him he was sleeping with his brother’s wife and repent….”

Yah (doing my best Office Space impersonation) . . . it’s a gay wedding. Pretty sure the whole “exposed” part has been covered already.
Posted by Prince Hanniel on July 18, 2008 at 2:16 am

How many have been able to attend ALL of our friends weddings whether gay or straight? Does the fact that we didn’t go to somebody’s wedding mean that we have lost them as friends forever? Not really, we still are friends even when we fail to attend their functions.
Please notice that Jesus used to hang out with sinners BUT the activities they were engaged in by the time he was hanging out with them were not SINFUL but what everyone does everyday. Eating with Tax Collectors (everyone eats) and that is not a sin. But notice that when he found sinners DOING a sinful act, he would not be party to it… remember the time he drove people out of the temple for turning it to a business premise? Were they SINNERS? YES. Was Jesus in their MIDST? YES. Did he sit and OBSERVE? NO!!

John your friends might want to celebrate their gay marriage as a happy occassion. But the act they are celebrating is in itself SINFUL. The problem here is not hanging out with sinners but OBSERVING them celebrate sin. Would it be different if a friend of yours called you to go and watch him enjoy killing coz he gets a fixation from killing? Would it be different if your married friend told you to go out with him and watch him enjoy a lap dance in a strip club coz he loves that? Would you accompany a friend who’s filming a porn movie coz it will pay his/her bills. Would you accompany a friend who wants to abort? WOuld you go with a friend to rob a bank though 4u you will just sit and do nothing? Maybe the answers to these questions might be easy coz some of the situations are illegal by law. But even the ones not punishable by state law doesn’t mean they are right.

My point.. I wouldn’t attend a gay wedding BUT I wouldn’t sever my friendship with the persons. I will still look for opportunities that have neutral ground to speak to them of Christ’s love.
Posted by ric booth on July 18, 2008 at 4:03 am

Anita, I knew you would hate it. Thank you.

Now, if the most insidious and pervasive sin afflicting American’s today is gluttony (to the tune of club memberships, wide-screen-plasma-surround-sound-megawatt home theaters, summer homes, beach homes, and time-shares) why is this not the most preached message and the most discussed issue in blogosphere? Why are not pastors who refuse to change their lifestyle not removed? Why does the topic of homosexuality, less than 5% of the population, generate all the discussion whereas Anita’s comment about our blind eye toward poverty and child-slave-labor is ignored. Still. And no doubt will be all the way past comment #200.

(The questions within my rant are rhetorical.)
Posted by Morse on July 18, 2008 at 4:30 am

“Were they SINNERS? YES. Was Jesus in their MIDST? YES. Did he sit and OBSERVE? NO!!”

C’mon. If Jesus is God, you know he likes to watch. I mean, what else does he do up there all day every day?
Posted by Weekly news from around cyberspace 7/18 « The Church of Jesus Christ on July 18, 2008 at 5:15 am

[...] What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding? « Suddenly Christian. I realize that this is a question that has to be asked, occasionally, by some, but the easy answer is really, could you wish them well in their sin? [...]
Posted by arlywn on July 18, 2008 at 5:47 am

now, for something new. If he inflickted people with being homosexual then why is everyone not a homosexual? Becuase it sounds like he just said homosexuals are born this way. If thats the case then they have no control over this and it makes him sound worse because he’s supposed to love everyone and if makes some a sin, and he hates sins…. then hes discriminating and making it so that everyone cant be loved. Right?

Personally Anita, If jesus were here, on earth with us, and saw all these people arguing over what he would do- I think he would hide. Maybe crouched in a corner somewhere and go “OMG, you didnt tell me this would happen! What happened to all those people who just listened to me- instead of thinking about what I said and applying it to other situations? And who gave them a bible?????”

I know morse~ he sits in heaven with a book and goes, “Morse- dies of… hm… dermatitis… lets see, how about next year? Yea… he’s being particularly heathen like lately.”
Posted by mhogue on July 18, 2008 at 6:38 am

“And so it seemed to me that … Jesus would much prefer I put my love into action … But what do you think?”

*jokingly* Good thing we have all these wonderful Modern-Day Pharisees to consult with when we already know what Jesus wants us to do!

John, I think you just enjoy reading these “comment battles” a little bit too much! I’m sorry that nearly everyone missed the point.

“God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.” I John 4:16
Posted by Skerrib on July 18, 2008 at 6:56 am

C’mon kids, almost there…
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 18, 2008 at 6:57 am

Arlywn asks, “If he inflickted people with being homosexual then why is everyone not a homosexual?”

Who can say? If he “inflickted” people with being left-handed, then why is everyone not a leftie? It’s one of the mysteries of life. Most people are right-handed. And in ages past people who were left-handed were viewed with suspicion. People would traditionally eat food with their right hands, since the left hand was used for … other things. But today we know that left-handedness is simply a naturally-occurring variant of manual dexterity. And I’ve read some research that indicates that the “Left-Brain, Right-Brain” functions are actually REVERSED in people who are left-handed. Why left-handedness occurs is anyone’s guess. My suspicion is that there is probably some obscure genetic marker for it, but it has not yet been discovered.

And just as left-handedness is a naturally-occurring variant of manual dexterity, so being Gay is a naturally-occurring variant of human sexuality.
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 18, 2008 at 6:58 am

Ta-dah!
Posted by Morse on July 18, 2008 at 7:01 am

“And just as left-handedness is a naturally-occurring variant of manual dexterity, so being Gay is a naturally-occurring variant of human sexuality.”

I was reading something recently that suggested the genes that are responsible for homosexuality (or at least homosexual inclinations) in men are the same genes that, in a woman, would make her more fertile.

Which would explain why homosexuality as a trait hasn’t been naturally selected out of the gene pool.
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 7:06 am

@ John Shore,,hey just a quick question,I was reading your other post on ,,if God sends your gays friends to Hell , then you would be there also,or something like that….I’am not sure why you even would ask WWJD about going to a gay wedding,,cause Hell would be alot more of a place that I would ask about, you know I have alot of sinners friends WOW!! But just because they are loving to me and good to me and me to them,,,,( And they themselves admit to being sinners)not me judgeing them….) Dont make me say if God sends them to Hell I want leave them….Besides God does not send anyone to hell!!! We send ourselves thru not receiving his son as our personal savior.My prayer for them would be that one day to see God”s goodness and accepted him as their personal savior. They all know where I stand with serving the Lord,,and I respect them for how they live,,so we all Love each other…But because they are my friends ,,,they dont even ask me to do things they know are against how I feel also…So I really think that should work both ways…..
Posted by John Shore on July 18, 2008 at 7:13 am

I see. And your simple question was …?
Posted by arlywn on July 18, 2008 at 7:23 am

of course he doesnt send them to hell. the handbasket does. he just says we cant go into heaven and we have to go over there….
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 7:23 am

@ John if you would go to Hell for your gay friends, then why would you even ask Jesus what he would do about going to a gay wedding?That should not be hard at all to do …just asking,I think being willing to go to Hell for them would be alot harder to do than a wedding for them.. going to their wedding’s should not be a question.
Posted by arlywn on July 18, 2008 at 7:26 am

so, anna… do you invite your gay friends to your ’straight’ weddings? knowing its against what they believe?
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 7:32 am

@arlywn,,,,not at all
Posted by Morse on July 18, 2008 at 7:37 am

Gays don’t believe in straight weddings?

What about all those wedding planners?
Posted by Chuck Anziulewicz on July 18, 2008 at 8:14 am

TO ARLYWN:

Excuse me??? Whatever gave you the idea that Gay people would ever be “against” a Straight couple’s wedding? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard! I’ve been to lots of weddings, and I’ve been an usher in at least three. I believe very strongly in monogamy and commitment, whether by a Straight couple or a Gay couple.

That Gay couples seek to marry is not an attack on marriage. If anything it is an ENDORSEMENT of marriage, an acknowledgment that it far better to encourage couples toward monogamy and commitment, rather than relegating them to lives of loneliness and promiscuity.

Ask any Straight couple why they choose to marry. Their answer will not be, “We want to get married so that we can have sex and make babies!” That would be absurd, since couples do not need to marry to make babies, nor is the desire to make babies a prerequisite for obtaining a marriage license.

No, the reason couples choose to marry is to make a solemn declaration, before friends and family members, that they wish to make a commitment to one another’s happiness, health, and well-being, to the exclusion of all others. Those friends and family members will subsequently act as a force of encouragement for that couple to hold fast to their vows.

THAT’S what makes marriage a good thing. Gay couples recognize that and support that.
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 8:26 am

Oh joybells! We’re in the 200’s and the energy hasn’t abated yet. I feel so warm inside.
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 8:32 am

@John ,just when you get a min,,dont forget # 203—205Thanks just a question?
Posted by Charlene on July 18, 2008 at 8:38 am

This is a very good question. I think that unless God told Jesus to go, He would not go to this wedding. Jesus only went to places where he could minister and show people the way to the Father.

Another reason not to go is if there are immature Christians going to the weddings, you are giving them the wrong message.

Any time Jesus spent with sinners, he was telling them to repent, so you need to be prepared for explaining the reason why you wouldn’t attend a homosexual marriage.
Posted by Charles Horton on July 18, 2008 at 9:05 am

John, this one is for you.

Several times on this thread I preceded my thoughts with, “assuming one believes that homosexuality is sin.” I haven’t seen any responses to it, and so I am wondering.

John, the question you ask in your article raises a more fundamental question. How do you believe God views the act of homosexuality? I’m not asking you about any particular friend or person, but about the act itself. What do you believe God has to say about homosexuality?
Posted by Skerrib on July 18, 2008 at 9:06 am

I had a whole little homily typed out, but then it all started to look like “blah blah blah…”

Charlene, something to consider (and I’m saying this gently and with respect)–do you think the only way to minister & show people the way to the Father is to talk to them about God? I think you’re right about him only going places he could minister, but I think ministering and showing love doesn’t have to involve speaking directly about God.

Jesus went to the wedding at Cana and turned the water in to wine (kick-a$$ wine, btw) after everyone was already ‘well-drunk.’ He enabled the partying and didn’t give any sort of sermon or speech. He just helped his friends out when they needed it.
Posted by samwrites2 on July 18, 2008 at 10:13 am

Man, I’m just going to comment so I can say I was number 215!
Posted by samwrites2 on July 18, 2008 at 10:18 am

Now I’m going to go explain to my kids why they can’t says some activity is so “gay” when what they really mean is it is not something they want to be involved in.
Posted by samwrites2 on July 18, 2008 at 10:18 am

Wait, that should read “say.” Woo-hoo – I get 215-217!
Posted by rebecca h on July 18, 2008 at 11:07 am

I too have had many close relations at one time of my youth to have supported free love,and an end to loneliness and non-acceptance which had brought me to the study and acceptance of gay/lesbian relationships, but after i had my 5 kids (3 girls/2 boys) gays have attacked my personal life in horrible ways. Besides prowling for my boys in every public setting, i am bombarded with signage that puts down my christian lifestyle, crushing my childrens up bringing in public schools, forced sexuality in our High School to join the gay alliance club or you’ll be ostrisized by teachers and students. My question really lies in this… are you invited to be apolitically correct show that “all kinds” are welcome only if …you lay in bed with gay veiws, are you only to get acceptance if you agreeto go and show? Can your boundaries be accepted about sexuality? Are you considering acceptance to going because of the negative proplems that will be inevitable? I encourage you to have strength and realize that you can have a boundary (like I’m telling you right?) and still have relations without falling into a trap of compromise that is not pleasing to whom you follow. When Jesus Christ had dinner, did He eat with gays and enjoy Himself or did He go and eat with ex-gays? I have also witnessed ex-gay “members of the club” (it is a club) and these men have moved on with healthy mental peace and heter- marriages. In conclusion gracefully bow out for religious purposes which the couple would already be expecting. Please note that you deserve to be loved for your yes’s and your no’s.
Posted by bethyoung on July 18, 2008 at 11:22 am

I think it’s one of those things where you go with your heart. It won’t take you saying “no thanks” to going to their wedding (but still remaining friends with this couple) to have them turn from their sexuality. In fact, if anything it will seem hypocritical of you NOT to go. I say you do things that make a difference to them in their lives in a positive way. You aren’t gay. I’m not gay. We can’t understand what they live with every day. The Bible says that a homosexual won’t enter heaven just like it says that liars, prostitutes and drunks won’t enter heaven. We’ve all lied and most have been drunk…so I’m not sure how that makes us any different than any homosexual. When the Bible speaks of this, I believe that it’s referring to our lives without Christ, before we were forgiven. As if we were to be a drunk and never turn to Christ….and so on. We all have a lot to learn and unfortunately we probably won’t ever learn until we get to heaven. I view myself as full of sin. So full of sin that I cannot pass judgment onto anyone else. The only thing I can pass to others is that I know I am forgiven and it’s only by Christ’s blood that I can enter the gates. I can’t even believe that I may hear the words “Well done” because it seems like I fail so often. We all do. So, maybe it’s pointless to even argue about the little things like going to a homosexual’s wedding and more beneficial to talk about who’s feeding the hungry and poor?

Not that you shouldn’t be blogging about this (for Pete’s sake I blog about decorating my home most of the time) but as Christians I think we have it all wrong. I could go on and on….
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 12:30 pm

but after i had my 5 kids (3 girls/2 boys) gays have attacked my personal life in horrible ways. Besides prowling for my boys in every public setting, i am bombarded with signage that puts down my christian lifestyle, crushing my childrens up bringing in public schools, forced sexuality in our High School to join the gay alliance club or you’ll be ostrisized by teachers and students

I can’t begin to imagine what area of the country you live in but here in San Francisco that’s not the case at all and wouldn’t you think it would given all us queers running wild in this corner of the nation? Given that most child predators are heterosexual males, how have you concluded your sons are being prowled upon by gay men? What kind of “signage” are you seeing and where that ridicules and condemns your christian faith? Are the signs similar to those that read “Fags should die!” and “God hates queers!” And I’d really be interested in any documented and proven evidence you have about youth being ostracized by school officials and faculty for not joining the Gay/Straight Alliance.

When Jesus Christ had dinner, did He eat with gays and enjoy Himself or did He go and eat with ex-gays? I have also witnessed ex-gay “members of the club” (it is a club) and these men have moved on with healthy mental peace and heter- marriages.

Since you seem to equate homosexuality to other sins, do you actually read in your Bible that Jesus only ate with ex-prostitutes, ex-tax collectors, and ex-sinners? Not only did Christ eat with those who were sinners but he didn’t demand repentance from them as a condition to sitting with them and sharing a meal. He didn’t patronize them or look down on them. He loved them. He shared bread with them. He identified with them. If you or anyone feel called to separate yourselves from “sinners” that’s the right of your convictions but don’t mis-characterize Jesus as ever having done the same thing, because HE. NEVER. DID.
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 1:20 pm

@ Anita, Jesus might have not demanded repentance from them to sit with them on earth,,but he did say you had to repent and sin no more to sit with him in Heaven,,,he does not expect us to contiune in our sins,,in others words he loves you but does not accept you or anyone that contiunes in that sin,,if you can say how you feel, I have to stand b-4 God in how I feel and believe.
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Oh Anna Anna Anna.
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 1:30 pm

@ John Shore How do you feel about Homosexuals being a minister? WWJS (What Would Jesus Say ?)
Posted by ANNA on July 18, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Its a very dark world we live in indeed…My very first Blog ever,and am sick to my stomach at what Satan has done. Wow !!!!!!!! Love All in Christ
Posted by arlywn on July 18, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Clarity here, I was not trying to hint that I think gays dont believe in marriage, I was attempting to point out that knowing they dont believe in the same kind of marriage….

okay how about this example instead? I doubt very seriously that Anita would consider marrying Morse, anymore that Anna would consider marrying Anita. So if Anita invites Anna to her wedding, and Anna doesnt go- because homosexuals are going to hell and so is everyone who attends the wedding, blah- then is it anymore fair for Anna to expect Anita to come to her wedding?

Does that help? I was not saying gays dont believe in marriage!!!!!!

Anna. What has satan done specifically? Dont give credit to things that havent done anything.
Posted by Tony on July 18, 2008 at 2:29 pm

John,

I loved the message. I truely think that through love is how we are to fellowship to people. I was just awoken with a phone call from a christian friend who is really on fire for God. I told him of this message you wrote and for a while he was hard set against it. I am not trying to change someones heart about the subject but food for thought rather to possibly help guide them in thier walk. We started talking and his friend called who was hard set against it, we went into a 3 way convo and to make a long story short he basically told me that Jesus wouldn’t go simply because sin is condemed, whne they get to the part of “whosoever thinks these two shouldn’t be married speak…..” he said it was our duty to then bring forth the wrod as it is an abomination of God. Ugg……………This convo was one of the most stressful I have had, I agreed to disagree but think these people are missing the point.

At one point in the convo he stated it was sin, like adultery is an abomination. I then asked him if he had been to a wedding of someone who wasn’t biblically separated from thier first spouse and got remarried…..How short sighted we can be when we are uncomfortable with things…..

God Bless You All!
Posted by Candace on July 18, 2008 at 2:57 pm

So, Anna (#221) …

Are you saying you no longer sin? Interesting. Would like to know how you manage that. Please explain.
Posted by Candace on July 18, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Ok, now we are past 200, are we going for 300? What’s the record for blog comments in general, I wonder?
Posted by Joni on July 18, 2008 at 3:48 pm

When you go to the wedding (any wedding) you are giving your blessing and your approval. You can love them, do other things with them, but as Christians, we have to stand up for righteousness, and no, I do not believe you can go to their wedding, and give your blessing.
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 4:01 pm

When you go to the wedding (any wedding) you are giving your blessing and your approval. You can love them, do other things with them, but as Christians, we have to stand up for righteousness, and no, I do not believe you can go to their wedding, and give your blessing.

Whew. You just saved me a ton of money in wedding gifts since that means I should no longer attend marriages of straight friends who I know gossip, are prideful, self-righteous, judgmental, who don’t welcome the outcast, who ignore the plight of the homeless, who have let the sun set on their anger or have been divorced and are getting married for the second time. Wait. Now that I’m thinking about it, I should never go to another straight wedding again since how am I to know if the couple are going to practice sodomy, which the Bible calls sin. I wonder….should I ask if they intend to do so before returning my RSVP card?

Sigh…no more white taffeta for me and rice-throwing for me.
Posted by Neil on July 18, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Good question. We just went to a wedding of two former co-workers and friends – the bride was on her third marriage and the groom on his second. It appeared that they started dating seriously before the divorces were final and vacationed together. We went to be supportive and just prayed for them most of the time.
Posted by Patrick on July 18, 2008 at 5:44 pm

I think the real question is this; If these are your friends, have you spoken the truth in love to them about what Jesus would say to them about their sin just as He spoke to the Pharisees that you mention concerning their sin(s)? If these people are truly your friends the obedient and hardest thing to do is to confront them over their eternal destination. Obviously that they are gay and now “married” signifies that they have no personal relationship with Jesus. Your concern should not have been “should I go?” but rather, “should I go and tell them that without Jesus they are on thier way to hell?” This is truly loving your neighber as your self.
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 6:59 pm

Obviously that they are gay and now “married” signifies that they have no personal relationship with Jesus. Your concern should not have been “should I go?” but rather, “should I go and tell them that without Jesus they are on thier way to hell?” This is truly loving your neighber as your self.

Obviously they have no personal relationship with Jesus? Honestly Patrick, as someone who’s had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ since the age of 5 and spent my entire life wildly crazy in love with Him, I find your remark to be the most arrogant and offensive of everything I’ve ever read on any blog and dear man, I’ve read some pretty horrendous stuff. Others will bare witness that I usually respond as graciously as possible but all I can think to say to you is “How dare you!” Your statement not only demeans my commitment to Christ but makes a mockery of what has forever been the foundation for our relationship with Christ and that’s the work that Jesus alone bore on the cross so that in believing in him and the glory of what he did for us, we might enter into communion with God. I’m sickened by what I just read. Not because I’m gay since your judgment makes no difference in what I know to be true in my life, but because I’m a Christian and I’ve seen the wounds and scars on the hearts of people who’ve taken such words from others into themselves.

This is one time I have no lighthearted or even sarcastically witty comment to add.
Posted by John Shore on July 18, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Anita’s right, Patrick. “Obviously that they are gay and now ‘married’ signifies that they have no personal relationship with Jesus,” is an atocious thing to say. No matter how you feel about it, the plain fact is that there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of gay and lesbian people who are every bit as ferociously dedicated to Jesus as you are. In this particular case, you have royally screwed le’ pooch, because Anita is an accomplished Protestant minister who I GUARANTEE you knows the Bible every bit as much as you wish you did. You need to apologize to her for your arrogant maligning of her passion for Christ. Do her, yourself, and all of us a favor: Let shine some of the kindess, humility and grace that all we followers of Christ are called upon—are commanded by Him, in fact—to cultivate within ourselves, and to then share with others.
Posted by Neil on July 18, 2008 at 7:28 pm

“Anita is an accomplished Protestant minister who I GUARANTEE you knows the Bible every bit as much as you wish you did”

All I can say to that is, “So what?” Lots of atheists know the Bible well (I’m not saying she is an atheist, just that knowing the Bible doesn’t make you a Christian). Lots of apostate churches ordain gay pastors. That doesn’t make them Christians either.

If you want to say that only God can judge the salvation of gay people then go ahead. But I think you are making the opposite error of Patrick. Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean he or she is.

Homosexual behavior is a way of shaking one’s fists at God, and same-sex unions are a full-time way of doing that.

100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.

100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.

100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).

0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.

To be in such a union and to insist that one is in a true saving relationship with Jesus is to be “saved and confused” at best.
Posted by John Shore on July 18, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Allllllllllllrighty, then.

My feeling is that continuing this is like continuing to chew a huge wad of gum once it’s utterly devoid of flavor. No fun. Time to move on.

I’m going to let Anita have the last word here, because she’s the one toward whom the most people have directed the most venom—and because I’ve been deeply impressed by the thoughtfulness, kindness, patience, and resonating love that she evinced with each and every one of her responses. If that’s what homosexual Christianity looks like, maybe we should all go out and buy Tinky Winky dolls.

Anyway, fair is fair: She gets the last word. If any of you have anything else you’d like to add to this comment chain, do so now, because once Anita’s had her next say, I’m shuttin’ this puppy down. Thanks to each and every one of you for your contribution to what turned out to be a dialogue much more intense and invigorating than I’d imagined it might prove to be.
Posted by Candace on July 18, 2008 at 7:51 pm

Just going to quickly report that I did an internet search on the Greek words Anita provided above, and found some interesting reading.

For those whose minds and hearts are open to a broader discussion of whether the Bible actually does globally condemn homosexuality.

John, thank you. I am profoundly grateful that this discussion was given the freedom and the room to run that you gave it.

Anita, God bless ya, girl. I consider you a friend, and wish the wedding wasn’t already over or I’d be angling for an invite
Posted by anita on July 18, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so,
Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves Patrick
Yes, Jesus loves Neil
Yes, Jesus loves Candace
Yes, Jesus loves Anna
Yes, Jesus loves Ric Booth
Yes, Jesus loves Sam
Yes, Jesus loves Skerrib
Yes, Jesus loves John
Yes, Jesus loves Tony
Yes, Jesus loves Arlywn

When I married my beloved, Jesus came to our wedding.
And he smiled.
And he danced.
And I am forever thankful.
Posted by John Shore on July 18, 2008 at 8:00 pm

And there you have it. Thanks, all.
Posted by Got Fruit? » Blog Archive » Post #200: Worldview Wedding Worries on July 19, 2008 at 9:52 am

[...] an interesting read this evening that posed the WWJD question. Hat tip to Wickle. The post titled: What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding? by John Shore,poses the question of how should a Christian respond to an invite to a gay wedding. [...]

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What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding?

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