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	<title>Comments on: What Would Jesus Do If Invited to a Gay Wedding?</title>
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	<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/</link>
	<description>Trying God&#039;s patience since 1958</description>
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		<title>By: susan</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-77752</link>
		<dc:creator>susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The words &quot;homosexual&quot; and &quot;homosexuality&quot; (specifically in 1 Corinthians 6:9) have been substitute for the original Greek word &quot;catemite&quot; which translates: &quot;boys kept for purposes of prostitution&quot;.  The term Sodomy clearly refers to RAPE or more specific to the quoted scripture Deuteronomy 23:17, gang rape!  The whore and the sodomite are classified together because they are both used for prostitution.  And if you really think about it, can you really say that the whole of Sodom were homosexuals?  There were men, women and children gathered at Lot&#039;s door.  These people were interested in degrading Lot&#039;s visitors, overpowering them, defiling them in, not having loving, committed sexual relations with them.  Come on James, seriously?

Both Paul and Jesus tell us in the New Testament that we are not under the Levital law.  These laws were laws of &quot;Holiness&quot; given to the priests.  They were instructed not to wear certain clothing, eat specific foods, and to abstain from several sexual situations.  Many Biblical scholars, believe that the quoted scriptures about men lying with men refer to the, then common, pagan practice of men taking male prostitutes within the temple.

Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” and “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every Biblical text is also without error.  We ARE fallible. We DO err&quot;.  And we can certainly misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The words &#8220;homosexual&#8221; and &#8220;homosexuality&#8221; (specifically in 1 Corinthians 6:9) have been substitute for the original Greek word &#8220;catemite&#8221; which translates: &#8220;boys kept for purposes of prostitution&#8221;.  The term Sodomy clearly refers to RAPE or more specific to the quoted scripture Deuteronomy 23:17, gang rape!  The whore and the sodomite are classified together because they are both used for prostitution.  And if you really think about it, can you really say that the whole of Sodom were homosexuals?  There were men, women and children gathered at Lot&#8217;s door.  These people were interested in degrading Lot&#8217;s visitors, overpowering them, defiling them in, not having loving, committed sexual relations with them.  Come on James, seriously?</p>
<p>Both Paul and Jesus tell us in the New Testament that we are not under the Levital law.  These laws were laws of &#8220;Holiness&#8221; given to the priests.  They were instructed not to wear certain clothing, eat specific foods, and to abstain from several sexual situations.  Many Biblical scholars, believe that the quoted scriptures about men lying with men refer to the, then common, pagan practice of men taking male prostitutes within the temple.</p>
<p>Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” and “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every Biblical text is also without error.  We ARE fallible. We DO err&#8221;.  And we can certainly misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words.</p>
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		<title>By: Green Woman</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-76147</link>
		<dc:creator>Green Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-76147</guid>
		<description>A few years ago, similar pseudo &quot;biblical justifications&quot; were used to &quot;justify&quot; slavery, racial segregation, the interdiction of biracial marriage and apartheid in South Africa. They also denied women the right to vote and hold public office because &quot;women are to stay silent&quot;. Strangely, very few people still try to to that nowadays (except with ulterior motives).

Was the Bible wrong, James? Or rather, were the people interpreting the Bible through the lens of their ignorance and racism wrong? Fundamentalists like to cling to old translations of the Bible (negating the progress made in understanding the meaning of words) because it suits their frame of mind, simply. They are scared of anything that is not simplistic, black and white, cut and dried.

Do you know some children are born with an ambiguous gender, incomplete genitals, or hormone signatures that are not clearly male or female and sometimes with extra chromosomes? These children are created by God, James. Is Creation evil?

According to the latest scientific research, homosexuality is decided before birth. (God gave us heads to use them, said my old pastor.) Children often know at a very young age that are gay and sometimes their parents know it too, before puberty, in the absence of any contact with any gay adult or other outside influence.

How then can you say that this is a &quot;perversion&quot; (meaning by that a conscious choice to do evil)?

These children are also created by God. They are my brothers and sisters. But you prefer to act like Cain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few years ago, similar pseudo &#8220;biblical justifications&#8221; were used to &#8220;justify&#8221; slavery, racial segregation, the interdiction of biracial marriage and apartheid in South Africa. They also denied women the right to vote and hold public office because &#8220;women are to stay silent&#8221;. Strangely, very few people still try to to that nowadays (except with ulterior motives).</p>
<p>Was the Bible wrong, James? Or rather, were the people interpreting the Bible through the lens of their ignorance and racism wrong? Fundamentalists like to cling to old translations of the Bible (negating the progress made in understanding the meaning of words) because it suits their frame of mind, simply. They are scared of anything that is not simplistic, black and white, cut and dried.</p>
<p>Do you know some children are born with an ambiguous gender, incomplete genitals, or hormone signatures that are not clearly male or female and sometimes with extra chromosomes? These children are created by God, James. Is Creation evil?</p>
<p>According to the latest scientific research, homosexuality is decided before birth. (God gave us heads to use them, said my old pastor.) Children often know at a very young age that are gay and sometimes their parents know it too, before puberty, in the absence of any contact with any gay adult or other outside influence.</p>
<p>How then can you say that this is a &#8220;perversion&#8221; (meaning by that a conscious choice to do evil)?</p>
<p>These children are also created by God. They are my brothers and sisters. But you prefer to act like Cain.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-76124</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-76124</guid>
		<description>Matthew, that was great &amp; amazing. I pray that I can learn to make such well worded responses to &quot;Christians&quot; who are hatemongers. I have had a hard time explaining why I know that I am not wrong in my belief that Jesus would not condone the mistreatment of the LGBT community. 

John, I am so happy to have found your blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, that was great &amp; amazing. I pray that I can learn to make such well worded responses to &#8220;Christians&#8221; who are hatemongers. I have had a hard time explaining why I know that I am not wrong in my belief that Jesus would not condone the mistreatment of the LGBT community. </p>
<p>John, I am so happy to have found your blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Connell</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-76045</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-76045</guid>
		<description>James, please read Romans 2:1-4 the next time your quote anything from Romans 1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, please read Romans 2:1-4 the next time your quote anything from Romans 1.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Tweedell</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71588</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Tweedell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 04:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71588</guid>
		<description>(well... I&#039;ll just go ahead and post this reply anyway...)

&quot;John 1: 1-2 states that, &#039;In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word Was God. He was in the beginning with God.&#039; Guys, this is the trinity. The &#039;Word&#039; here is Jesus.&quot;
We&#039;re aware of that (and personally I think those verses and the ones which follow are some of the most profound verses in any Scripture ever). The problem seems to be that *you* aren&#039;t aware of that, and its implications. You think the Word is the Bible, instead of Jesus (and what that really means is that you think the Word certainly says whatever your interpretation of whatever Bible you happen to choose happens to be). Now Jesus doesn&#039;t go around telling people they&#039;re not allowed to be married. Of course, neither does the Bible, but whatever. (In fact, the Bible never *does* anything; Jesus, however, works miracles---yes, even the miracle of uniting a same-sex couple in Holy Matrimony! Would you believe that? O you of little faith, all things are possible with God [I know, that&#039;s the problem I have with God too].)

&quot;When you reject concrete teaching of scripture (which is the infallible word of God), you effectively reject Jesus-the &#039;Word&#039;.&quot;
But look at the difference in capitalization that you used. I don&#039;t know about you, but to me that makes a difference. Are you saying that capitalization is without effect as regards concrete meaning? Well, is it the same to talk about an apple store and an Apple Store? Sorry, but Jesus is not a book. Jesus is a diving being, and Jesus is a human being. His human being can be seen in flesh and blood; his divine being---in love and truth. That&#039;s all love, James: gay, straight or indifferent, Jesus is in their midst! The new covenant, writes Paul, is not of the letter, but of the Spirit.

&quot;sin is sin&quot; -- Agreed. So I&#039;ll pray that what your saying hasn&#039;t and doesn&#039;t hurt someone, and I&#039;ll pray for your forgiveness if so.

&quot;addictions to pornography is just the same as homosexuality&quot;
How so? Are all homosexual persons unhealthily lustful? (Or is it that all porn addicts are gay?)

&quot;If we live in habitual sin, we have not been born of the Spirit, and we certainly have not been washed with the Word (Jesus).&quot;
Exactly. So I really hope that this isn&#039;t a habit for you, James. I&#039;ll trust this is the first time you&#039;ve said these hurtful things publically and that it will be a one time mistake, yes?

On a more theological matter, assuming you meant God&#039;s Word is timeless (otherwise, I&#039;m not sure which of God&#039;s words exactly you could be referring to as somehow timeless), why do you think so?
 The Father is without beginning, and so without time, but the Son---the Word---is the beginning and the end, in time, so as, in the fullness of it, to reveal the Father, becoming (and remaining) man, which is such a being as abides in time. How else does the Timeless minister to those stuck in time but by sending word into time in some way? Now, the Word is indeed immortal, but only because he died, that Hades holds no power over him, but by his death (a real event in time, as I understand it) he put Death to death, for those who believe in him. While the Father is eternally the same, the Son, in order to do the will of the Father in these things (and so much more that I doubt the world itself could contain all the books that should be written), did will to be incarnate---and matter does not exist except with energy and motion at some level, and these have meaning only assuming time. &quot;And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.&quot; (Luke 2:52) So it doesn&#039;t sound like the Word is timeless to me; ever-existing---perhaps, but if so, ever-moving and ever-changing; the Everlasting, from everlasting, to everlasting, which we see as beginning and end, which know as different forms—Alpha and Omega—though the essence is One with Father and the Holy Spirit: and the essence is Love, James. God is love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(well&#8230; I&#8217;ll just go ahead and post this reply anyway&#8230;)</p>
<p>&#8220;John 1: 1-2 states that, &#8216;In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word Was God. He was in the beginning with God.&#8217; Guys, this is the trinity. The &#8216;Word&#8217; here is Jesus.&#8221;<br />
We&#8217;re aware of that (and personally I think those verses and the ones which follow are some of the most profound verses in any Scripture ever). The problem seems to be that *you* aren&#8217;t aware of that, and its implications. You think the Word is the Bible, instead of Jesus (and what that really means is that you think the Word certainly says whatever your interpretation of whatever Bible you happen to choose happens to be). Now Jesus doesn&#8217;t go around telling people they&#8217;re not allowed to be married. Of course, neither does the Bible, but whatever. (In fact, the Bible never *does* anything; Jesus, however, works miracles&#8212;yes, even the miracle of uniting a same-sex couple in Holy Matrimony! Would you believe that? O you of little faith, all things are possible with God [I know, that's the problem I have with God too].)</p>
<p>&#8220;When you reject concrete teaching of scripture (which is the infallible word of God), you effectively reject Jesus-the &#8216;Word&#8217;.&#8221;<br />
But look at the difference in capitalization that you used. I don&#8217;t know about you, but to me that makes a difference. Are you saying that capitalization is without effect as regards concrete meaning? Well, is it the same to talk about an apple store and an Apple Store? Sorry, but Jesus is not a book. Jesus is a diving being, and Jesus is a human being. His human being can be seen in flesh and blood; his divine being&#8212;in love and truth. That&#8217;s all love, James: gay, straight or indifferent, Jesus is in their midst! The new covenant, writes Paul, is not of the letter, but of the Spirit.</p>
<p>&#8220;sin is sin&#8221; &#8212; Agreed. So I&#8217;ll pray that what your saying hasn&#8217;t and doesn&#8217;t hurt someone, and I&#8217;ll pray for your forgiveness if so.</p>
<p>&#8220;addictions to pornography is just the same as homosexuality&#8221;<br />
How so? Are all homosexual persons unhealthily lustful? (Or is it that all porn addicts are gay?)</p>
<p>&#8220;If we live in habitual sin, we have not been born of the Spirit, and we certainly have not been washed with the Word (Jesus).&#8221;<br />
Exactly. So I really hope that this isn&#8217;t a habit for you, James. I&#8217;ll trust this is the first time you&#8217;ve said these hurtful things publically and that it will be a one time mistake, yes?</p>
<p>On a more theological matter, assuming you meant God&#8217;s Word is timeless (otherwise, I&#8217;m not sure which of God&#8217;s words exactly you could be referring to as somehow timeless), why do you think so?<br />
 The Father is without beginning, and so without time, but the Son&#8212;the Word&#8212;is the beginning and the end, in time, so as, in the fullness of it, to reveal the Father, becoming (and remaining) man, which is such a being as abides in time. How else does the Timeless minister to those stuck in time but by sending word into time in some way? Now, the Word is indeed immortal, but only because he died, that Hades holds no power over him, but by his death (a real event in time, as I understand it) he put Death to death, for those who believe in him. While the Father is eternally the same, the Son, in order to do the will of the Father in these things (and so much more that I doubt the world itself could contain all the books that should be written), did will to be incarnate&#8212;and matter does not exist except with energy and motion at some level, and these have meaning only assuming time. &#8220;And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.&#8221; (Luke 2:52) So it doesn&#8217;t sound like the Word is timeless to me; ever-existing&#8212;perhaps, but if so, ever-moving and ever-changing; the Everlasting, from everlasting, to everlasting, which we see as beginning and end, which know as different forms—Alpha and Omega—though the essence is One with Father and the Holy Spirit: and the essence is Love, James. God is love.</p>
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		<title>By: DR</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71582</link>
		<dc:creator>DR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 04:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71582</guid>
		<description>Attending an Exodus International convention, perhaps?

hmmmm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attending an Exodus International convention, perhaps?</p>
<p>hmmmm.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Tweedell</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71538</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Tweedell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 00:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71538</guid>
		<description>No problem. Thanks, John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No problem. Thanks, John.</p>
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		<title>By: John Shore</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71505</link>
		<dc:creator>John Shore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71505</guid>
		<description>Oh, I didn&#039;t realize you&#039;d given it a big answer. I&#039;ll reinstate it. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I didn&#8217;t realize you&#8217;d given it a big answer. I&#8217;ll reinstate it. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Tweedell</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71497</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Tweedell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71497</guid>
		<description>Awwwww, what did have to go deleting that for, when we finally got to take on a *real* argument for preventing gay marriage? I didn&#039;t find that particularly disrespectful (compared to, say, the comment immediately below), and it was with no insignificant effort that undertook giving rebuttal to it, knowing that this sort of stuff coming out of &quot;family values&quot; think tanks is what allows policy makers to sustain their prejudices with an air of rationality, whereas no one wins a national debate, much less a major election, these days running on a platform of &quot;the Bible says so&quot; (free universal public education, for all its failings, has at least secured us this). In fact it should be remembered that the intellectual forces with which neoconservatism (let’s make no mistake that that’s were the problem lies; more traditionally conservative libertarians tend more to see gay/straight marriage on equal legal footing nowadays) originates and by which, to a great extent, it is shaped, are atheistic (which, b.t.w., is part of why they are in our understanding misguided; yet they know no such thing as &quot;our understanding&quot; because their philosophies assert the primacy of self, or of consciousness, defined as self-awareness, or something along these lines).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awwwww, what did have to go deleting that for, when we finally got to take on a *real* argument for preventing gay marriage? I didn&#8217;t find that particularly disrespectful (compared to, say, the comment immediately below), and it was with no insignificant effort that undertook giving rebuttal to it, knowing that this sort of stuff coming out of &#8220;family values&#8221; think tanks is what allows policy makers to sustain their prejudices with an air of rationality, whereas no one wins a national debate, much less a major election, these days running on a platform of &#8220;the Bible says so&#8221; (free universal public education, for all its failings, has at least secured us this). In fact it should be remembered that the intellectual forces with which neoconservatism (let’s make no mistake that that’s were the problem lies; more traditionally conservative libertarians tend more to see gay/straight marriage on equal legal footing nowadays) originates and by which, to a great extent, it is shaped, are atheistic (which, b.t.w., is part of why they are in our understanding misguided; yet they know no such thing as &#8220;our understanding&#8221; because their philosophies assert the primacy of self, or of consciousness, defined as self-awareness, or something along these lines).</p>
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		<title>By: John Shore</title>
		<link>http://johnshore.com/2008/07/15/what-would-jesus-do-if-invited-to-a-gay-wedding/comment-page-9/#comment-71481</link>
		<dc:creator>John Shore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnshore.wordpress.com/?p=520#comment-71481</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s so weird we&#039;re not hearing from rabid Christian homophobe James anymore. I wonder what happened? It&#039;s like he&#039;s been blocked or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s so weird we&#8217;re not hearing from rabid Christian homophobe James anymore. I wonder what happened? It&#8217;s like he&#8217;s been blocked or something.</p>
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