I waved my hand in the air. “Excuse me! Excuse me! Okay, so, if God is love, then I don’t understand why there’s hell.”
What my Sunday school teacher didn’t understanding was why I, the new kid in her class, wouldn’t shut the freak up.
I’d never been in Sunday school before. And that totally worked for me. To me, the final proof of just how bonkers Christians were was that they wanted more school in their lives. But my family was new to the neighborhood, and my dad, a salesman, decided that our attending church would increase his contacts.
Right off the bat I learned that adults went to church, while their kids got shoveled off to some place that I was rapidly discovering was modeled on Actual School, but wasn’t.
For sure my new Sunday school teacher, Miss Quinn, hadn’t liked my latest question. She never seemed to like any of my questions, which I asked by way of participating, by showing that I understood that that this was a school was all about God.
Plus, I had gotten pretty immediately into it. Who doesn’t want to know all they can about the absolute ruler of the entire universe?
“The reason there is hell,” answered Miss Quinn with a studied patience “—although that is a bad word, class, that we must never, ever use—is because that is where people who do bad and evil things end up as their punishment for disobeying God.”
I shot my arm back in the air. It was obvious that somehow my relationship with my latest teacher had gotten off on the wrong foot—but I was confident she’d get back to her natural state of liking me if I asked a really good question that demonstrated with what care I was paying attention. Plus, I was genuinely curious.
I saw Miss Quin’s neck tense a bit as she looked at me. “Yes?”
“If God is all-powerful and all-knowing,” I said, “then before a person is even born, God must know if that person is going to hell or not, right?” Miss Quinn’s expression made clear she had not yet been moved to cuddle me. “But why would God make anyone just so they could spend eternity in hell?” There. I’d delivered the coup de’ cuddle.
“What did I just say about cursing?”
“You said not to,” offered a shiny-faced boy I instantly hated.
“That’s right, Bobby. I said not to curse.” To me Miss Quinn said, “And yet you chose to curse anyway, didn’t you? Why do you think that is?”
“I’m sorry,” I said. “I was just … I was just asking a question about … I mean … how do I talk about … that place, without actually calling it hell?”
The class gasped.
“What is the matter with you?” said Miss Quinn.
“Nothing. Nothing’s the matter. I swear. I mean, I don’t swear. I mean, I try not to swear if I can help it. I only wanted to ask a question about … that place. That’s all.”
“Well, you’ve asked enough questions for today. Why don’t you just sit there quietly and not ask any more questions, okay? That will be fine.” Having properly dispatched of me, Miss Quin turned back to her chalkboard.
Having apparently been born without the Shut-Up gene, I was talking before I could stop it.
“That’s not fair. I asked a real question. This is supposed to be Sunday school, right? You’re supposed to learn stuff in school, not be told you can’t use the words you have to use to ask the questions you need to ask to learn the stuff you’re supposed to learn. What kind of crazy trap is that?”
“Young man!” yelled Miss Quinn. “Sit down!”
“And that’s not even the point! The point is that I asked a real question. If God is all-knowing—if he knows everything that’s going to happen before it happens—and someone ends up … down there, then God must have known all along that that person was going to end up down there. If he let that happen to that person, then how can God be as loving as you said he was? If God didn’t know that was gonna happen to that person, then how can he be all-knowing? And if he knew the person was going down there, and wanted to change it, but couldn’t, then how can God be all-powerful? Now aren’t those good questions?”
Miss Quinn came charging down the row of desks directly at me. “Oh,” I said, and waited for her arrival. She grabbed my arm, and with it yanked me so violently forward that it knocked me off my feet.
“I can’t believe you’re actually dragging me out of class!” I cried. I called out to my classmates. “Those were good questions! Good questions!” With my arm wrenched painfully over my head I then fell silent, and watched the ceiling of the classroom going by.
♣ Join me on Facebook here. ♣
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
I was addicted to The Show for a while. I was an awesome left fielder for the Astros.
We have the Sony Playstation 3 and the Nintendo Wii at our house. I like the PS3 because it also plays Blu-Ray discs, which, John, you need to see on that nice plasma TV. Way above and beyond DVD in quality.
Wii is more for the kids but many of the games give you exercise, if you don't want to feel like a slouch.
Both systems come with instructions, and usually come in a bundle with a game or two as well.
I like sports related video games. My eclair habit has made it so that I can't actually DO sports but I can be a virtual star.
My current obsession is MLB08:The Show.
yeah, you know: if that works for you, coolio. It wouldn't for me (obviously) because "the data" would leave so much unaccounted for or anywhere near explained. You can't quantify, or data-ize, love, or nobility, or sacrifice, or ideals, or altrusism … or ANYTHING emotional. And the religious experience–as is LIFE, I would argue—is primarily an emotional experience. So the "models" derived from this data of yours would, to me, automatically be so lacking in scope that I would—as, of course, I did—move on to a system wherein ALL of the human experience is contextually reasonable.
But that's just me, of course. I mean, not JUST me, obviously. But me.
Bongs, eclairs, and video games. Good way to kill an afternoon, anyway. Or … about four years, I would guess.
I've never played a video game. Ever. It's so stupid. I want to. What should I buy? I have a new, 52" plasma TV. What system? What games? I assume the gaming consol will come with some kind of SET-UP instructions??
I hear you John but I can tell you absolutely beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would be "happiest, most content, most peaceful" in a world where chocolate eclairs provide all of the nutrition I could want and playing video games while doing bonghits will provide me with all of the sustenance and socialization I would ever need.
Why don't I choose choose to believe that? I could definitely have faith in a chocolate eclair bonghit videogame world.
I think what I'm proposing is more realistic than choosing to believe in Jesus or Buddha or Chocolate eclair honghits as enticing as all three might seem to me. Instead I choose to try to create models that explain the data I am confronted with but choose not to believe in any one of the models.
So (my point being:sorry) to me it's about Thinking and trying to disprove instead of about faith or belief or even knowing… because I agree with you knowing seems impossible
But the question (Brian) isn't whether or not any of us can ever get any objectively verifiable proof of God. The question, for everyone, is are we happier CHOOSING to process our natural understanding and experience of God within the context of an established, traditional religion, or are we happier choosing either to believe that there is no God, or that we simply can't know. One of those three is all any of us have. In the end, all that really matters is which one makes any given person the happiest, most content, most peaceful—which of the those three, in other words, most fully accords with his nature. Being by nature a religious person, I naturally tend to think people are best off when they process their religious/spiritual natures through a religion they don't have to make up as they go along—and, being a Christian, I of course think Christianity is the best religion. I have all KINDS of issues with the way it's so often practiced and articulated in the world—but so what? I may not like Sempra Energy, or whatever, but that doesn't mean I don't love electricity. I'm more comfortable than not believing in a God; believing a God exists makes more SENSE to me. And I think the Christian concept and understanding of God is the best one. Simple. But (my point being: sorry) it's not about KNOWING. It's about choosing to believe. That's what … faith is.
Funny, this is much the way I came to Model Agnosticism. A similar moment to this led me to realize, "No one knows." What happens after death? No one knows. How was the world created? No one knows. etc. The best we can do is to take the available evidence and create a model that explains that evidence… but always remain agnostic about the models because new data can and likely will come along that will negate that model and require an updated one.
I came to that agnosticism many years after attending Christian Science Sunday School which always ends with "The Scientific Statement of Being" which I can still recite by heart even if the words seem more and more meaningless to me.
Sometimes we find it difficult to just admit that we dont know all the answers, we bluff our way through or use our seniority to snub the questioner! I think it hurts & discourages a child to be brushed aside or in your case dragged down the aisle:). Thankfully it didnt have a lasting effect
you still ask questions!
whatever happened to the “a teacher learns most from her students” saying? most christian communities in India do not encourage questioning especially against their practices and beliefs. but if we do not question, how will we find answers that will make us stronger in what we believe. what you believe in should be able to withstand the questions that arise against/about it.
John,
The saddest part of your story (IMHO) is that it is played out again and again at Christian colleges all over the country. No, they don’t drag you kicking and screaming from class (and sorry, but since i’ve never seen photos of you as a kid, all I can think of is a little kid with the photo of you from the blog superimposed on his body – an image which makes me giggle) but asking tough questions is still looked down on.
Too bad you weren’t studying Bhagavad-gita. It actually makes sense.
I haven’t been reading that long, but there seems to be a “church horror story” pattern developing with several of your posts — the church ladies who wanted you to dump your attending but as-yet-unbelieving wife, the same church who wanted you to sign a policy statement, and now what would be a nightmare for any child. All of these stories stir your readers’ sympathies and outrage.
Is that by design — to stir up discussion uncovering man’s never-ending failures in organized religion, or have you just been especially “blessed”?
Very funny post. Did you ever get an answer that satisfied you or DIDN’T make God look capricious at best? I actually did. This blew my mind and I’m not sure why I haven’t heard it before…but check out the passage about the weeds and the wheat. Matt 13. I’m just sayin…it’s interesting. One of the very few parables we see Jesus explain.
When I grew up, I sure did. For at least 20 years I kept a fantastic translation of the BG on my nightstand, and read it … well, pretty much every night. It's just such a beautiful articulation of (what I now think of as) pre-Christian spirituality.
Answers, John, answers, please. The questions I’ve got. The answers I need.
Ditto arlywn’s question for me John.. how would you have answered that question today if you were the Sunday School teacher?
You should have known better, then to question, god works better if just left mysterious.
Holy Lord. This is so sad. and so very common. I find that persons who ask these thought provoking questions are usually seen as trouble makers, when they really and truly just want to undertstand God’s personality. Alot of persons I know are just plain confused..even people who are christians, but are just afraid of being ‘trouble makers’ so they just stay silent.
The big issue is that this all causes a ripple effect. I bet that sunday school teacher got so upset because she just did not know how to answer such a question – and that rings true for many christians. We need to know the character of God, so that we will be able to share that knowledge (myself inluded)
great post
Lindsey: What happened is from then on I had to go the adult service. I still remember that as the most boring time of my life. I just died.
Greta and Wickle: Yeah, right? I KNEW "hell" wasn't an Official Swear Word.
Redlefty: Totally funny! Excellent.
Mark: Both. Neither.
Thanks to each of you: Free, Latoya, Jason, Joshua. Excellent comment, guys. I contend I have the best readers/writers in the blogosphere, and … you guys show it! Great stuff.
Dale: I know you have a lot more answers than you're pretending to—but thanks.
This'll sound insanely self-serving, but both my book "Penguins," and the book I authored with S. Arterburn, "Being Christian" were written to very specifically and clearly answer exactly the sorts of questions raised in this little Sunday School story. And i know they do a very good job of doing that.
Off this blog, a few posts that come to mind are:
http://johnshore.com/2007/07/10/evil-surprise…
http://johnshore.com/2007/07/25/free-will-vs-…
http://johnshore.com/2007/07/23/the-comfort-o…
John, my belly jiggled with laughter at the teachers response to the word "hell" being a curse word.
Your youthful reply: I’m sorry,…. “I was just … I was just asking a question about … I mean … how do I talk about … that place, without actually calling it hell?”
I hope it's o.k.to laugh at the teachers ignorance….she was intimidated by your questions…that's why she threw you out of the class! I hope all sunday school teachers read this . . . so many are unqualified volunteers…. bless their hearts….but my goodness,will somebody teach them right theology…. 'hell' is a curse word? Jesus said it first!
Where do people get the idea that "hell" is profanity, anyway? It's a perfectly-appropriate word in the context you were using it.
guys, I've done a LOT of blogging in which I directly addressed those very questions. So I'll see about maybe hunting them out of the archives and pointing you to them…
wow….. that sounds identical to my sunday school experiences. Except when I got older I had more answers, which the teachers loved until I followed with something along the lines- thats not really probable….
So- according to you, Joshua, I'm not going to heaven?
Oh, and John- just for kicks, what are those answers that you now know to the questions you got kicked out of class for?
For real?! And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why I ask all my questions at church under my breath and with a sly smile.
First rule of Hell Club — we don't talk about Hell Club.
I'm sorry for that memory to etched into your memory. Situations like that are too common in SS and children programs. God can lead conversations through the thoughts and imaginations that our little ones present to us. Who knows maybe if that conversation would have been allowed to continue perhaps a mystery of the kingdom of God would have come to fruition. I have found that God will work in the spirit of the little ones on so many occasions and adults will pass by it!
Luke 18:16-17
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
NKJV
I remember those days…you didn't ask, you just read your KJV and didn't understand anything and went home, where mom asks, "What'd you learn in sunday school?" and you say, "nuthin."
Geesh, what is it with volunteer SS teachers? Maybe they didn't have teaching material then? I hope it's better nowadays.
How sad for you, John. And how happy for you now that you've gotten your answers.
:)