This past Sunday I went to a meeting of a church men’s group. The group was in session #20 (!) of a series it was doing called (something like) “Finding Your Authentic Manhood.” Just before offering my idea about exactly where each man in the room could find his authentic manhood, it occurred to me to shut-up.
Staying quiet was easy to do, too, because what the thirty or so men in the room were doing when I showed up was watching television. That made perfect sense. It was a men’s group—and if there’s one thing men like to do, it’s watch TV. What these middle-aged men were watching on their big-screen TV was another middle-aged man talking about what does and doesn’t make for a happy marriage.
I got there just in time to watch the guy on TV start talking about how in a good Christian marriage a wife should be submissive to her husband. The moment he said that he started saying what I knew he would, which is that what he meant by the word “submissive” isn’t what people generally mean when they use that same word.
I have never, ever heard a pastor or ministry leader assert that a Christian wife should be submissive to her husband without them immediately launching into an explanation of how they’re not using that word to mean what everybody else thinks it means. And then they always say a bunch of stuff I can never follow, because in my mind it keeps folding in on and contradicting itself. But I’m sure that’s just me.
Anyway, I would like to suggest that when it comes to describing how a Christian woman should act toward her husband, we Christians start employing a different word than “submit” and/or “submission.” Think of how much time pastors could save explaining themselves by using the right word in the first place! I know Paul used “submit,” but … maybe he meant something different, too. Or maybe “submit” is a terrible translation of whatever word Paul originally used to describe how Christian women should act toward their husbands. I don’t know. All I know is that today every pastor who uses that word when he’s talking about women in marriage then has to spend 15 minutes talking about how that’s not actually the right word.
I think we should come up with the right word. I’m a writer. I like using the right word. If I want anyone to take my work seriously, I have to use exactly the right word, every time. And pastors say way more important stuff than I do. I think at this point it’s safe to say that “submit” isn’t working for them or us. There are about one million words in the English language. Surely there’s one in there somewhere that comes closer to what we’re actually trying to communicate about the proper attitude of a wife toward her husband than “submit” does.
It’s weird, though. I can’t, at just this moment, think of that word might be.
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Yeah, Beyer.
Hippie.
(eyes rolling)
Silly people. Maybe a little brush-up on the Bible being the inspired Word of God is in order??
The difference between Paul and any old preacher?? Puh-lease. Give me a BREAK.
uh-oh
yeah
And there, to me, is the $10 million dollar question.
I have enjoyed reading all of these comments. I have submitted to my husband because I trust him with everything but there are times he ask for my opinion because he trusts me. As a Christian I have always read the scripture from Paul:
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
As I was reading all these posts, I realized Jesus did not say this, it was Paul. I then dared to question why it is different from any other Pastor today who might say something we would disagree with. Couldn't this have just been Paul's opinion and nothing more? Pastor's give there opinions and doctrine all the time. So what I'm asking is, how is it any different than say if Billy Graham said it? The pastor at the church I grew up in said "Women should not wear pants"?
“Submit” hhhmmmmm? The word of JESUS is like a 2 edged sword. “Submit” I believe it’s our responsibility to understand this word via the Holly Word and its understanding instead of the “World” understanding!
This is one of word(s) which needs to get a specific understanding and not a assumption of what the word means set up by MAN but by the understanding of GOD word.
Remember everything we do in life should be evanglism….
If you happen to a friend which is not a believer and doesn’t understand the word, well it would be a pleasure to explain and also present the gospel..
So, I agree ! I would keep it the same.
Praise him name ALWAY!
Blessings,
this seems to be the most frustrating and wrongly interpreted discussion ever … sorry John … i thought your original article was quite clear in your objective to find a word that when said more clearly implies "the heart behind" "submission" without tying in all of the emotional connotations of being a doormat that "submission" often implies
i have no ideas or suggestions, but i just wanted to let you know that i feel your pain with this discussion…who knew it could go so wrong, lol
i look forward to any better words that people come up with
so far, i've liked "mutual submission". i think that might help women to feel less like they'll be walked all over for submitting b/c the guy will be submitting too
You’ve got to keep in mind the entirety of the verse. What Paul says isn’t “wives, submit to your husbands in everything”. He’s saying, “submit as you would to Christ… …in everything”.
So since her husband isn’t Christ and is fallible, it is impossible for her to Submit as she would to Christ. Because while Christ will always be caring for her and everything Christ requires of her is ultimately for her good, the same isn’t true of the husband.
It is only possible for this command to be followed when the husband is truly acting as Christ for his wife.
Skerrib: What I’m meaning (and, clearly, failing) to address is that fundamental aspect of submission that isn’t about choice at all. Yes, when you CHOOSE to submit, we can call that submission, too—no problem. But Paul directs women to submit to their husband’s will absolutely, at all times. He says:
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
“Wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
That’s as clear and unequivocal a command as exists anywhere in the Bible. And all I was saying is that I’ve never heard anyone preach on it without them immediately going into a long bit about how Paul doesn’t REALLY mean that wives should submit to their husbands in everything—even though, as we see, that’s exactly what he says.
It’s funny (ha, ha, ha) how sometimes we argue that Paul is so perfectly clear it’s foolish to pretend that what he’s saying is any more complicated than it is—and then, relative to other things Pauls says in which he’s as perfectly clear as he ever is about anything, we not only tolerate subtlties of interpretation, we vigorously insist upon them.
John, John, John! I only said the Kevlar undies thing about him trying to take my kids away from me! (And I dare you to find any mother who wouldn’t say the same!)
I submit to him often when I disagree. A disagreement is NOT the same thing as unequivocally knowing he’s wrong. If we, for instance, disagree about what our grocery budget should be, there is no reason for me to believe that I am in the right. We both have reasons and arguments, and I will honor his side of the argument. If we, for instance, disagree about whose family we will spend Thanksgiving with and we can’t come to a compromise, I will honor him. These are situations in which there isn’t a clear moral imparative or any way to empirically define “right” and “wrong”, just “she wants” and “he wants” and in these cases I’m willing to set aside my desires. When I said “if I’m unequivocally sure he’s wrong” I was talking about a moral imperative. If he, for instance, decided that watching porn and sleeping with other women was fine there’s no way I’d “submit” to that, because I’d be doing both of us a disservice. There is a line between healthy submission (showing that I honor him EVEN WHEN I DISAGREE, about matters that WOULD NOT PUT OUR FAMILY IN PERIL) and castrating the relationship.
A good wife isn’t a doormat or an extension of her husband’s will. She is willing to set herself aside and apart for him, as a sign of respect.
But he has to be respectable. He HAS to show that he has her best interests at heart. You keep trying to divide these things, you keep trying to define submission as ALWAYS giving in, ALWAYS saying yes, but the fact of the matter is that Ephesians 5 is talking about BELIEVERS, not just MARRIAGE, it is MARRIAGE in the context of BELIEVERS, and thus this “submission” thing does hinge on both people behaving as a spouse that is ultimately submissive to God should behave.
Which means that the wife should never be in a situation where she would be asked to submit to a bad behavior or situation that puts her family or the wellbeing of her children in peril. A Godly husband wouldn’t do that.
That anyone brings up having to submit as something that only wives are expected to do means that said person is not following the whole counsel of God; nine times out of ten, such a person chooses to ignore the admonition immediately before it in Ephesians 5:21,” Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Wouldn’t this mean that periodically, husbands would have to submit to their wives, parents to their children’s wishes, etc.?
Also, shouldn’t a men’s group be talking about how a husband should treat his wife, and not vice versa? Isn’t the admonition in Galatians 5:25 on how a husband should treat her wife as follows: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”?
Especially if the pastor is a woman. Can't be havin' that now, can we?
I believe that "submit" is the only word. We are talking about to your husband. If you don't want to submit to him, then why did you get married. If you have chosen someone that you are compatible with, respect, love, and who loves the Lord..what's the big deal? Women these days don't want to be viewed as different from men…reality check-we ARE! God made us that way, and we glorify Him most when we embrace the way He created us. Marriage is supposed to be a picture of Chirst and the Church-are we not to submit to Christ? The first thing someone does when they come to Him is deny themselves. And while I'm at it..I am sick of pastors trying to be PC and watering down the Truth.
Submission is NOT subordination. A subordinate always submits, but you can submit WITHOUT being subordinate. A CEO will submit to the CFO’s budgetary plan, but the CEO is still the boss. And a wife can submit to her husband’s will without being his subordinate.
In a godly marriage both are putting the other first, and in that way both are always assured of their best interests being considered. If you’re asking me if I would submit to my husband when I unequivocally knew that he was in the wrong? Um, No.
Maybe I should think about this more.
Um, still no. Because my duty as his wife is NOT to be his doormat, it’s to help him grow to be the man he should be. If he wanted to do something that could put my family in peril, I would have a duty to hold him accountable. If he did something that I knew was sinful, I would have a duty to hold him accountable. If he made some sort of important life decision without consulting me or considering my needs, I would have a responsibility to call him on it. Because I’m not his employee- I am his “help-mate”. I am to help him lead a better life, and I wouldn’t be doing that if I lost my voice. I wouldn’t be doing that if I allowed him to think that his will was the only will that matters.
God’s will still matters more.
Which is why we live in Christian community, we have friends and fellow believers and pastors to help mediate those situations in which the husband misses the mark. (And the wife, too, because God knows no one is perfect.)
I submit when I am unsettled, when I am unsure, or in areas where no long term ill will befall my family. If he wants to go out with his friends and I want him to stay at home and fix the leaky sink, I can submit and shrug it off and let life be life.
If he wanted to send my kids to boarding school without my consent, he’d have to have his Kevlar undies on. I hope that clears things up?
Lindsey: But I’m not talking about a situation where you have “unsettled feelings” about something your husband wants to do. “Unsettled feelings” means you have no clarity on the issue at hand; you don’t know what you think. So, sure, in that case, why not go with what your husband thinks?
I’m talking about what happens when you DO know what’s right–or where you’re sure you do, anyway. When you DO have a thought or idea that directly contradicts something your husband says is right: when God has told YOU what’s right, and your husband wants to do something different.
Do you then submit to his will? And if you do, isn’t that the very definition of being subordinate to him? It is, of course. I haven’t confused submission and subordination. You submit when you’re subordinate. That’s just … not debatable. I’m not JUDGING that at all: it’s just a fact. Suborinates submit. That’s … what those words mean.
Skerrib said:
That's not true. I have made complete sense of it.
John, are you confusing submission with subordination? A subordinate is beneath by default, but submission is one choosing to place one’s self beneath another. It’s a gift.
The wife puts herself beneath her husband not because she is a doormat, but to uplift him. To help him grow and be more like Christ. And because of the wife’s choosing to be with him, to uphold him, to set aside some portion of her own desires to honor him, the husband is commanded to give up his life for her as Christ did. And I can assure you that this is not the least bit uninteresting- in reality these things can get awfully bloody. Because no woman WANTS to be beneath a man all the time, and a lot of men confuse the woman’s GIFT of submission as subordination.
This is submission: A woman has some unsettled feeling about a decision, the husband insists that he has heard God, the woman puts her trust in his relationship with God and sets her feelings aside. (The same thing sometimes happens with dirty towels on the floor and his insistence on giggling when he farts. She sets her feelings aside and goes on with her day with grace and good nature)
This is subordination: he says, “get in the woman and bake me a pie.” She says, “I’m busy.” He says, “SUBMIT.”
That isn’t submission. That’s treating her like an employee. Submission honors- subordination hurts both.
Therisnogrey: I was only suggesting we find another word for “submit” because, as I wrote, I’ve never seen a pastor use the word when talking about Christian wives in marriage without that pastor immediately then launching into a total redefinition of the word. The word GETS redefined, every single day, in churches all over the country. Seems to me they should come up with another word—one that means something they’re actually comfortable saying.
Whoa, whoa, whoa…hang on a second here. The mere idea that we are going to redefine a word in the Bible gives me the creeps. It’s just a bad idea and sends us down a slippery slope with regard to redefining any part of the Bible we don’t like.
Perhaps we need the context of the entire passage in Ephesians. If you read Ephesians 5:22 – 33 I think you will find that Christ (through Paul) places the greater burden on men in describing our roles as wives and husbands.
Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church. He is to present himself to her without stain or wrinkle, but as holy and blameless. Men, your role is to get right with God. You have to walk in his will which means you have to be praying about it every day. If you don’t draw upon God’s strength to lead your family and love them within His will, you will fail.
Els suggested that “submit” doesn’t reflect ‘the modern view of the woman’s role in the family.’
I would suggest that women have been forced to change their role because men have failed in their role as leaders. Be it in the church or in our families, men are either shirking their responsibilities or taking them entirely upon their shoulders and leaving God out of the equation.
In short, I don’t think we can even discuss a wives submission until we talk about men’s roles at the same time.
Gotta say…I am repulsed by those (often women) defending ‘submit’. People are willing to violate a fundamental human right based on ancient dogma and zero evidence.
Know this…those outside of theistic beliefs see these things and consider them vile, while many of you see absolutely nothing wrong. Nuff said.
I feel the need to point out that Jesus died to break the curse of sin and death and to bring us the message that all of the law and the prophets come down to loving the LORD our God and loving our neighbor as ourselves, so I'm pretty sure that Jesus would agree that stoning kids = bad.
Just sayin'.
Morse, I just noticed you are smiling in your new pic…very nice!
I'm right with Mike & Morse on this one. Stoning children–bad.
There were a lot of things wrong about the culture then, just as there are plenty of things wrong about our culture now. It's the problem with being human and fallible and all that. Same thing with applying our human understanding to God's word. We just can't do it justice or make sense of it all, so there are going to be areas where we disagree.
Lauri: You’ve said something that I think captures what so many here have said: “…where a husband’s love for his wife would be so pure and unselfish that it would cleanse her and make her a better woman. How can you not submit to a husband who loves you like that?”
That’s great, of course, to be in a relationship like that. But it renders the word “submit” meaningless. If the husband at hand is perfect, as you just described him—if, as Lindsey put it, “the man is being the husband he should be”— then of course his wife has zero problem “submitting” to him. But that’s not submission. That doesn’t have anything to do with submission. That’s just enjoying a ride on the greatest yacht ever. That’s just you doing what anyone wants to do, which is to be loved and admired by a perfect person. Of course you’d agree to that.
But doing that—happily letting a moral, intellectual and emotional genius lead your team—entirely removes the whole concept of submission from the dynamic of the relationship. It doesn’t even a little address what submit actually MEANS, which is … well, according to the American Heritage Dictionary: “to accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person.” To submit means to do what you think or know is wrong because you HAVE to, not because you want to. If you WANT to, that’s not submission at all.
What do you do when your husband is wrong?—and when he’s NOT going to change his mind? What if it’s about something large—like, say, he wants to send your children away to a boarding school because he thinks they’ll benefit from being away from home, or he wants to buy himself a new SUV because he thinks the prestige of it will be good for his business, which is already failing? THEN do you “submit”?
It’s not interesting that you “submit” when he’s fantastic. It’s interesting what you do when to “submit” means compromising your own sense of morality, your own sure knowledge of what’s best, and sane, and most pleasing to God.
Hey now, it's not often I get this much blog action. Let me bask in it!
All right, you two. Get a room.
And I would be standing right next to Morse along with every other enlightened individual.
"Instead of changing the eternal truth of the Bible to fit our culture, why don’t we change our culture"
Because then we'd be stoning disobedient children to death.
And I have no intention of letting that happen.
This may answer some questions- -http://www.godswordtowomen.org/boss.htm
Instead of changing the eternal truth of the Bible to fit our culture, why don't we change our culture – freeing it from the life-sucking grip of this post-modern philosophy so many of us are encouraged to "submit" to.
Ah, I see what you mean. I'll have to read up a bit…
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