I caught grief for the first item I listed in my last post, Top 10 Ways Christians (Including Me) Fail. Therein I used three direct quotes from Jesus (“Sell your possessions and give to the poor,” “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor,” and “You cannot serve God and Money”) to support my assertion that “wealthy Christian” should be an oxymoron.
I received some ten objections to that post. Each took exception with its first item only; each was from a male conservative Christian either explicitly or implicitly defending his wealth, and each claimed that a broader interpretation was necessary to properly understand the words of Jesus that I’d quoted.
The men pointed out how important it is that I consider the historical and social context of Jesus’ words, that I consider the valid exceptions to Jesus’ rule, that I take into account the spirit in which Jesus meant what he said about wealth. To take these words of Jesus literally, they said, is to miss Jesus’ larger point.
Cool. I’m with that. I don’t think Jesus is anywhere in the Bible as clear as he is on the issue of personal wealth, but I’m always down for considering contexts and metaphors and reinterpretations. I think that’s one of the things our brains and hearts do best.
But whenever someone says they’re a conservative Christian, that usually means they’re in favor of taking the Bible at its word. Take an issue like … oh, I don’t know … homosexuality. If a Christian identifies him or herself as a “conservative,” it’s a very safe bet that he or she believes that homosexuality is a sin against God. And the reason they invariably give for that belief is because the Bible says so. The Bible, they say, condemns homosexuality absolutely—in clear, unequivocal language. The clarity of its phrasing on that matter simply leaves no wiggle room for debate or interpretation.
“God said it, I believe it,” as they say. (Of course, with regards to homosexuality it is Paul, and never Jesus, who says anything all. But … minor point.)
I suppose by now my question is obnoxiously obvious. (And believe me, I hate being obnoxious.)
But: Shouldn’t the same people who insist that the Bible be taken literally on the matter of homosexuality also insists that the Bible be taken literally on the matter of personal wealth? If we are morally obliged to cleave to exactly what Paul said, aren’t we at least as morally obliged to cling to exactly what Jesus said? A school child can see that Jesus was every bit as clear on the matter of personal wealth as Paul was on homosexuality.
I know this is stupid, but I would totally expect every Christian conservative to be poor. Because they’re so keen on taking the Bible literally, right? Just like they take literally what the Bible says on homosexuality?
Related post o’ mine: Sarah Palin vs. Paul’s Directive for Women to be Silent and Submissive., Helping Christians Be Bored by Homosexuality Since April 2007, Our Church: “Wanna Be a Deacon? Then Sign This Anti-Gay Petition”, How I Broke My Lesbian Friend’s Heart, and If My Gay Loved Ones Go to Hell, I’m Going With Them.
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Posted by Martin Vipond on February 12, 2009 at 5:45 pm
I agree. Christians should be poor. I write this on an expensive laptop connected to a moderately priced access point, wired to a router via two inexpensive switches and served by a commercial quality server through a 6MB DSL connection to the Internet. So, I guess I’m wealthy. Or am I? I’m not defending the rich at all by the way.
I think I may be a conservative, but I wear jeans to church every week where I play a $1700 guitar through about $2500 worth of gear at a slightly louder than necessary volume in a worship team that plays what a lot of conservative Christians would call 7-11 songs. (Seven words sung eleven times… sometimes twelve). So am I a conservative?
Here’s my point. Which dollar divides weathly from poor? Which issue divides conservative from liberal?
I used to be confused, now I’m only obnoxious… or am I?
Posted by Lindsey on February 12, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I’m poor. And by that, I mean it quite literally. My family falls under what is defined, by our state and nation, as the poverty level. So I’m quite comfortable with the assertion that a good Christian shouldn’t pursue or hoard wealth, because I don’t.
My parents, on the other hand, are wealthy. Not only by my own definition, but by what the IRS defines as wealth. And I’m also comfortable with believing that they are being Good Christians, because they give away ridiculous amounts of money to their less wealthy neighbors, my dad does mission work in South America which he funds completely out of pocket (and not once a year for a week missions, he spends a good third of his time out of the country, totally out of pocket). My dad has used his wealth to “spread the blessing” by helping his friends in Mexico, Guatemala, and El Salvador start small businesses so that they can better take care of themselves, as well as simply giving out gifts and charity and just loving on everyone.
I do believe that Christians who have wealth can enjoy it, as long as they are like my parents. Not by “acknowledging that it is really God’s” (what does that even mean?) but by sharing it, really SHARING it, holding it loosely, living beneath their means, using it to quite literally help others build better lives.
I hope that my parents give away so much of what they have that I don’t even get an inheritance. I mean it.
Good Christians shouldn’t be materialistic. Period.
Posted by John Shore on February 12, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Martin: you may or may not be wealthier than would please the Lord. But if your first paragraph shows us anything, it’s that, without question, you’re a geek. (I loved your whole comment, by the way. It’s great.)
Posted by John Shore on February 12, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Lindsey: WOW!! That’s … amazing.
Posted by Brian Shields on February 12, 2009 at 6:09 pm
You hate being obnoxious about as much as I do, Mr. Shore.
I’ve always said if Christianity was more about the Sermon on the Mount and less about the insane ravings of the psychopath who had the psychotic break on the road to Damascus, it would be a more attractive religion to me.
Posted by JLS on February 12, 2009 at 6:10 pm
John,
Good thoughts to bring up.
Context is important. All of the verses you mentioned deal with someone being Mastered BY their wealth instead of mastered by Jesus.
If Jesus is my master wealth is under His control and will be used, not for selfish ends, but for His glory.
Working on learning to use my American wealth (as contrasted with African poverty) to His glory.
Here is a very good synopsis of how we should use money. http://www.desiringgod.org/dg/id162_cf.htm
Jason
P.S. I’m definitely conservative
Posted by John Shore on February 12, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Brian: I love you, but you go too far. I can’t play with you if/when you call Paul a raving psychopath. That’s … too insensitive of you. Paul can break your heart with his self-condemning inquiries, his painfully honest confessions, his dazzling intellectual prowess, his unimaginable forbearance. And he’s as fine a writer as ever worked anywhere, at any time. If you just flat-out malign him, then you take yourself off the list of people who might actually have anything real or interesting to say about him. And I know you don’t particularly WANT to be on that list, of course. But still. Dude. SOME respect is surely not too much to ask.
Posted by Brian Shields on February 12, 2009 at 6:39 pm
John
I certainly didn’t mean to insult you or hurt your feelings. Let me ask this in a positive spirit, would you disagree that Saul of Tarsus was a raving psychopath? It’s fair to say he had some sort of transformative experience on the road to Damascus. Your assessment is that he changed for the better. I tend to be skeptical of that because my reading of the NT suggests that when the subject is Love it’s likely something Jesus said while if the subject is hateful, it’s likely something from the mouth of Paul. His continued bigotry suggests to me that the kernel of the psychopathic behavior that terrorized Christians before the holiday in Syria remained afterwards.
I apologize if I said that too harshly the first time around.
Your friend… Brian
Posted by John Shore on February 12, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Brian: No, no: Your comment wasn’t ABOUT me, so it didn’t even … almost in any way hurt my personal feelings at all. You see why: You didn’t insult ME.
And yeah, I think it’s safe to say Paul turned for the better. He quit killing and imprisoning Christians right away, so I’d say that’s a reasonable claim for improvement.
But I see what you’re saying: you give Jesus a thumbs up, and Paul a thumbs down. And since so much of Christianity seems so wrapped up in what Paul wrote, you find yourself with no choice but to give Christianity as a whole two thumbs-down. Is that right? To you, Paul has basically and for all time ruined Christianity, yes?
Posted by JLS on February 12, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Marvelous words from the pen of the “raving bigoted psychopath:”
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of aprophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For lnow we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I must say that Paul did have a great deal to say about love.
In the end it all comes down to the glasses through which one reads.
Brian, please read Paul again.
Posted by Andrew on February 12, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Right with ya on this one. I grow weary of hearing some Christians say they are “bible believing” Christians, or that they go to a “bible believing” church. Is there a greater self-serving phrase in the church vernacular? This phrase always can be translated, “they get juiced up over the same scriptures I do”.
Posted by Melinda on February 12, 2009 at 7:00 pm
I love your controversial debates John. But I just wanted to throw Proverbs 13:22 in there which says “A good man leaves an inheritance for his children’s children, but a sinner’s wealth is stored up for the righteous.” Wouldn’t a person have to be somewhat wealthy to leave an inheritance?
Posted by Redlefty on February 12, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Great post, John. I see what you did there, and I like it.
Since nobody else has taken the bait, I’ll try:
Perhaps your point isn’t that Christians should be poor. Maybe the 10 respondents were right, and things like social context and interpretive freedom go a long way to giving people the teachings they really need on money.
And perhaps the texts on homosexuality are the same, especially since they are so rare and are never uttered from the mouth of Jesus himself.
For instance, I can make an excellent case that in the Old Testatment, the scriptures against homosexuality are actually condeming the idol worship that was usually going along with it. And in the New Testaments, Paul’s words are surrounded by others we now call socially-specific and meaningless to us today.
Last point: I never see a scripture against lesbianism. Always male-on-male. Maybe part of being made in God’s image is that we admit it’s sorta cool when women kiss?
Okay, that’ll do. You walked us up to the line and I just jumped over it with a rocket ship.
Posted by Brian Shields on February 12, 2009 at 7:12 pm
John: You seemed to imply that I had disrespected your forum which I was afraid you could interpret as disrespectful to you. I respect you far more than I do Paul.
Also, in your post, you suggest that it makes sense to give a bigger thumbs up to Jesus than to Paul in wondering why conservative Christians take Paul literally about what people do in bed but don’t take Jesus literally about giving away all their possessions to follow him. I thought that was a brilliant and courageous point for you to make.
I tnink it’s too facile to say that Paul for all-time ruined Christianity for me. To me what ruined it was the transformation of the teachings of a man who could have been a political revolutionary but instead taught peace and love into a bizarre death cult involving human sacrifices and alleged resurrections and using human flesh to replace the blood of the lamb. What the heck does that have to do with “Love thine enemies, bless them that curse you, etc?”
There’s no doubt Paul was a brilliant marketer. He took a Jewish cult and popularized it to everyone. You didn’t even have to get circumsized to convert (like James… Jesus’ bro wanted to require) Did Paul write eloquently about love, JLS? Sure he did. Does it ring as sincere to me? When stacked up against what I read as his bigotry, no it does not.
Posted by anita on February 12, 2009 at 7:25 pm
I don’t find any struggle in being a christian and a lesbian. Where my real spiritual and moral struggle continues to be is in coming to terms with how I can live in the relative comfort I do when Jesus said to give it all away. Not some, not much, not a 10% tithe, but all. I come back to this question often and while I don’t think living in guilt is the way to go I also don’t want to diminish the clear message Jesus taught repeatedly around wealth (and if I have a roof over my head, food on the table, and clothes in the closet I’m wealthy to a good portion of the population of this earth and pathetically poor to a much smaller one). My parents lived as Lindsey’s and that’s what they taught me as well but I still wonder if its enough.
Posted by Janelle on February 12, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Anita: It’s never enough. And that is the thing we have to live with. We took our family to Mexico at Christmas and built a school in a village. We aren’t “rich”. We saved for a year, rode a bus for 40 hours, and stayed in a crappy cabin in a little campground. It was wonderful. While we were there we passed out food and blankets. We ran out. Even the ones we gave to will be cold and hungry again. It will never be enough.
I guess my way of approaching it is with this philosophy: I simply try to do the next good thing.
And, I don’t really think the “rich man” example in the bible is about the poor. Not really. Although there are many, many scriptures that instruct us to care about the poor, this scripture is about the man. His heart. His struggle. The thing that was keeping him from really losing himself in God. In his case, it was about his possessions. But even if he did sell everything and give it away, the poor would still be poor.
When scripture talks to me about the poor, I get the sense of an ongoing responsibility. So, I try to resist the temptation of materialism and to embrace the “people are always more important than things” approach. Daily. (and, of course, not always successfully)
Posted by samwrites2 on February 13, 2009 at 3:38 am
John,
Oh that you, Brian, Lindsay, Anita and I could all meet at a Starbucks in Dallas, listen to KERA and converse about Jesus, Paul and wealth – all in a spirit of love.
Like Lindsay, I’m below the poverty line. I acknowledge benefitting from my church’s wealthy who have now given me two vehicles, helped keep me and the kids fed and hugged us with God’s love toward a hopeful life.
I’ll agree with what Jesus said – John’s three select quotes from him – and throw in Joseph of Arimathea as an example of wealthy folk following Christ.
Surely you can not serve God and Mammon, but I believe you can serve God WITH money, love Anita, Brian, John and Lindsay and some of their eloquent blog entries, comments and arguments even though disagreeing with some of their beliefs, and maybe keep the title of “Conservative Christian” if you want to.
As I read John’s blog and books, titles and platforms have become less important as love and peace toward others have increased. This could be because a lot of John’s humorous works point back to the author and practioner of perfect love and peace – God.
So just call me liberal in a conservative sort of way while I try not to get involved in any apathy today.
-Sam
Posted by Brian Shields on February 13, 2009 at 5:16 am
Sam:
I worked at KERA 1992-1994 as the local host of ATC and producer/guest host of the Karen Denard Evening Talk Show…
Posted by ric booth on February 13, 2009 at 6:27 am
I think wealth is one of my favorite prison cells. God disparately wants to leads me out of this trapping but I cling to it with a death-grip of a crack addict.
Fortunately, God abides in me and I in Him. After all, Paul reassures me, love IS patient. And who is love if not God?
Fortunately the American church is also very loving, patient, and forgiving of my vices. They welcome me into their fellowship. They encourage me and love me despite my persistent sins. They even look at me as a leader in some of the fellowship’s activities.
Why can we not welcome all with the same love? I think we humans extend the most grace to others in areas we know we personally need it most.
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 9:48 am
Wow. Another really awesome collection of inspiring, reflective, insightful, honest comments. I was just reading them all to my wife. We’re certainly impressed. Thanks!!
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 13, 2009 at 9:56 am
John, you always provoke me to think in ways I hadn’t considered before.
Certainly Paul was no raving lunatic but perhaps he might have had the type of personality we might call obsessive compulsive. Is there any reason to think that his zealousness for his earlier faith ceased when he chose to follow Jesus? Some of things he says and suggests…shudder! ….are not what one would expect from a “Christian”.
Plus, we tend to read Paul through the lens of the Gospels yet Paul was not familiar with the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John (or whoever wrote under their names). His letters are the earliest recordings we have about Christ (which makes it interesting when we see the things that he does NOT mention yet the evangelists think are so important).
So if Paul is ranting about homosexuality 20 to 30 years before the Gospels are written, I wonder why the Gospels DON’T mention it? Perhaps its because Paul was talking about something else, a societal problem endemic to certain Hellenistic cultures that is closer to pederasty than homosexuality? Or was there another reason? Some think that maybe that thorn in Paul’s side…..
Anyway, Paul addresses issues that seem to be a product of his particular time and place and not apparent today. Jesus DOESN’T address every issue that confronts the Jews of his time (he does talk about divorce, as we are often reminded but that was in response to a trap that the religious leaders were laying for him). But Jesus DOES talk an awful lot about money, a great challenge that the first century Jews must have had in common with us.
My problem is, the less money I have, the more I am obsessed with it. How do I fix that problem? “Wheel of Fortune”?
Posted by Jessica on February 13, 2009 at 10:24 am
I get the feeling that maybe this post is more about Christian conservatives and their zeal for choosing which scriptures to take literally, than Jesus’ call to give away our posessions. I agree that Christian conservatives can be quite choosy in which scriptures they tend to put emphasis on, but I think we should cut them some slack. For one, all of the Christian conservatives I know (I went to a conservative Christian university) ARE poor. Whether that’s by choice or because of circumstance, I’m not sure. And at least in all of my relationships with CC’s, the desire and burden of their hearts has been to give freely and often, as much as is needed. AND, at my university, we were encouraged to love and reach out to homosexuals – accepting them fully and completely.
I think it’s natural to come to a conclusion about a certain group because of the hateful, arrogant, and hypocritical few that tend to be louder than all the others. I guess I’m just sensitive to categorizing any group as being something or doing something.
In regards to Jesus’ call to sell our possessions and give to the poor, I have a bit of a question. Is he asking us to sell ALL of our possessions, or have we just unknowingly inserted that word into the mix? While I think it would be a faithful and noble act to give away all of our possessions, would that really be the smartest thing to do? Then, some other Christian would have to sell his possessions to give me money because I’m now poor.
I read a little further into the selling of possessions and enjoyed learning about the believers in Acts. They sold their possessions and gave to anyone as he had need – and God blessed them for it. Isn’t it really just a heart issue – that Jesus wants us to put people before money? Or am I missing something here? (By the way, I’m 0% wealthy)
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 10:30 am
Jessica: I absolutely agree with you about how vital it is none of us demonizes any “class” of Christians. That’s why (whoops! gotta run!) I made sure to include the “Okay, so I really want to be clear on this: When I say that some of my best, dearest, and oldest friends are Christian conservatives (and extremely wealthy Christian conservatives, at that),” part. I thought it was the quickest, most efficient way for me to make that point.
Posted by Jessica on February 13, 2009 at 10:42 am
I totally understand. I hate being critical of anything you say because I know you try hard to be sensitive in the midst of tough topics. I guess I just wanted to tackle that aspect of your post, since it’s one that I’ve experienced. Hope I didn’t seem too critical of an interesting, thought-provoking post.
Posted by angelbearoh on February 13, 2009 at 10:55 am
I move in circles where the people will routinely drop $2,000 for expensive animal costumes that will never see the light of day outside of one of the conventions that they go to, where they will drop another $2,000. And all this just to fit in. So I guess both Jesus and Paul are being ignored there.
My God never gave me more equipment than it took to get the job done, and I’m happy with that.
Posted by Ken Brown on February 13, 2009 at 11:36 am
Brian,
I think it’s too facile to say that Paul for all-time ruined Christianity for me. To me what ruined it was the transformation of the teachings of a man who could have been a political revolutionary but instead taught peace and love into a bizarre death cult involving human sacrifices and alleged resurrections and using human flesh to replace the blood of the lamb. What the heck does that have to do with “Love thine enemies, bless them that curse you, etc?”
Why don’t you ask Paul: “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy [i.e. everything Paul believed Jesus had accomplished and would accomplish, according to Romans 1-11]: offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God….
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:1, 9-21)
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Angel: What? Do you hang out with … animal impersonators? Oh! Those … Furry Folk, or whatever they’re called?
I mean …. um. Well. It’s a big world. Very diverse.
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 13, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“Is he asking us to sell ALL of our possessions?”
Or, is he was asking JUST the rich young ruler to do this? Did he recognize that this fellows love of wealth and power (he was a ruler) were this fellows particular stumbling block; that it was keeping him off the right path?
Maybe with someone else it’s their appearance, or their credentials, or their reputation or their envy that keeps them off the path.
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Jessica: No, no worries. The point you’ve made is a great one that I should perhaps more often make: “conservative” (and I always put that word in quotes because it’s one of those … Infinitely Fungibles) Christians are guilty of nothing more than trying to follow the Bible. I’ve known at least as many selfish, arrogant, self-righteous, flat-out dumb “liberal’ Christians as I have conservative. At least conservative Xtians believe SOMETHING. Liberal Xtians are so busy modifying, trimming, reinterpreting and refashioning basic Christian truths that half the time you can’t tell the difference between what they believe and what you’d find on any fortune cookie, or on the side of any Starbucks cup. Snotty morons are everywhere, and no two ways about that.
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 13, 2009 at 12:23 pm
is he was? was he fuzzy? fuzzy wuzzy? ….plushies!
Posted by Jr on February 13, 2009 at 1:44 pm
It is false that Paul’s letters were all written prior to the Gospels as someone mentioned above. 1 Timothy 5:18 for one, takes a direct quote from Luke 10:7; and in fact, Paul referenced “the Scriptures” when doing the quoting. Which means Luke’s Gospel was already considered Scripture – and we know that Mark was written prior to Luke – so then what does that tell us?
Jesus, for the money example, was talking to someone specific. If you read the story as a whole you will see that the man walked away saddened because he had so many possessions. This was the one thing that separated him from being a disciple of Jesus. What is it for you? Is it money? Is it lust? Is it anger? Is it (name your own vice)? Leave it, and follow Jesus.
In regards to money – if you live your life seeking it – you cannot seek God; period. Just as if you live your life with the lust of the eyes – you cannot live your life with eyes on God. There are plenty of Christians who use their wealth in humility and for the sole purpose of spreading the Gospel. Amen to that!
And Brian – have you ever read John’s Gospel? Jesus talks about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. I guess He is just a raving lunatic? It is awfully easy to say “you know, if this part wasn’t in the Bible, I would be all about it!” Please, oh unbeliever, speak not of what you know nothing about. Not all things, even to believers, are made known; for God is beyond comprehension. Shall the pot say to the potter, “What have you done?!” Like Job – it may be time to place your hand over your mouth and repent in the face of the Sovereign LORD.
Get on your face at the Cross; God requires it. In the end, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is LORD.
To the other question: Jesus never talks about beastiality either – does that make it permissible? He actually didn’t talk about a lot of things according to the accounts that we possess. But Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God, and the Word became flesh. Jesus was there at creation – Jesus was there at the Exodus – Jesus was there when God the Father ordered the massacre of an entire people group – Jesus was there giving sight to the blind – Jesus is here, today, shepherding His flock – and Jesus will reign for eternity.
The act of homosexuality is a sin, it is an abomination against God. It was not the natural order of things when God said “It was good.” And hey, guess what, neither is hatred, and lust, and murder, and strife – all sin is an abomination in the eyes of the Almighty and Holy God. The homosexual is not condemned if they do not practice that lifestyle nor is an alcoholic condemned if they do not practice being drunk all the time. That is the point of being aliens to this world when we are members of the higher Kingdom. We leave our natural evil tendencies and we live another way – we no longer live as the Gentiles do; but according to the Spirit which God has given to those who love Him.
We all have a tendency to do something. Is it looking at pornography – is it gluttony – is it greed – is it homosexual activity? You name it – you leave it. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.
We are all born objects of wrath. We are all dead in sin. We are all enemies of God. Only in Christ are God’s elect reconciled. Let nobody puff themselves up with any self-attained-worth. We either live for God and His Glory – or we don’t live at all. Don’t waste your life!
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Yeah, Beyer.
Posted by Grace on February 13, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I think listening to God’s word to me personally is much more important than any one person’s interpretation. The Bible is wonderful in that the same verse can speak to many different people in many different ways. With each reading, new nuances can be revealed….new ways to apply it to one’s own circumstances.
Personally, I think that the very best thing I can do for a poor person, is not to be one.
If you’re an American, you’re wealty. RICH, even if you’re collecting unemployment. For example:
At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day
According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death
Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
Out of the 2.2 billion children worldwide, half of them (HALF) live in poverty.
1/4 of all humanity live without electricity
Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
So..who’s “rich” and who’s Poor?
I’m fairly confident that Jesus said, “Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you”
So even if we DID give it all alway, God would supply even more back to us.
Posted by Christine on February 13, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Read this post and all the comments and want to say one thing: Woop woop Johnny boy. You must have some small parts of your body made of steel to takle this one knowing what you will get. Well done
Posted by Des on February 13, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Can I stir the pot a bit? OK thanks. If conservative Christians are all about taking the Bible literally, then why do most of them go to church on Sunday? Nowhere in the Bible does it mention anyone resting or attending church on Sunday. In fact I believe there is still a million dollar reward somewhere on the internet if someone proves it! The argument is always that this was a Jewish thing, but I always come back with “Was Adam a Jew?”
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 13, 2009 at 8:24 pm
JR, many scholars believe that the pastoral letters were not written by Paul but by a disciple of his and may have been written as late as the middle of the second century, well after Luke’s Gospel.
BTW – how do you feel about usury? Got a mortgage? Make car payments? Or worse yet; work for a bank? If a sin is a sin is a sin, why do we ignore so many others that are so acceptable to the folks in the pews?
Where were your sneakers made?
Posted by John Matthew Walker on February 13, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Pointing fingers are not befitting of any Christian, so I extend all of mine to you. Remember that the poor in spirit are the ones who are blessed. When I think I know so much, I have to remember that I am spiritually bankrupt. I have tried to find the passage of scripture that says, “Blessed are the ones who think they are smart enough to tell everyone else what’s right or wrong about themselves or what they believe,” but I have struck out thus far. I think it’s in 2nd Hesitations.
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 13, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Hey. Who is this guy? Is he talking to me? Why I oughta….
Posted by John Shore on February 13, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Whaddaya mean, “small”?
Posted by wickle on February 14, 2009 at 6:15 am
Part of the problem is that we always rate other people’s sins as worse than ours.
Although Jesus said that it’s the same to look at a woman with lust as to commit adultery, and never said a word about homosexuality, how many of us do look at women lustfully but think to ourselves, “At least we don’t touch”? and how many of us would look with grace and forgiveness on an adulterer but get repulsed by a homosexual? I can relate to looking … I can understand adultery … I can’t relate to homosexuality (not that I don’t like you, John, just … you know …).
Yes, I’m pushing my blog post:
http://tinyurl.com/atneam
I might like to be wealthier than I am. So, it can’t really be as bad as being gay, can it? I mean, I’m not that much of a sinner, am I?
You’re right, of course, that everyone looks at those words from Jesus and tried to spin them. For my own part, I don’t think that we’re forbidden to live our lives and have some stuff … but we’re NOT allowed to turn our backs on others.
At the same time, homosexuality appears to have gotten a big black mark from Paul. But I have better things to do with my time than worry about how someone else might be sinning. I have planks enough in my own eyes.
Posted by Mike (FVThinker) Burns on February 14, 2009 at 9:31 am
It is not the accumulation of wealth that would be an issue. It would be the conscious denial of your good fortune to others.
Posted by talialovesyou on February 14, 2009 at 3:13 pm
a-effin’-men. ;]
Posted by Christian Beyer on February 15, 2009 at 5:35 am
Ditto.
Posted by Mike (FVThinker) Burns on February 15, 2009 at 8:55 am
…Of course I see no justification to take anything in the bible literally.
Posted by John Shore on February 15, 2009 at 9:16 am
Really? Gee, we didn’t know that about you, Mike.
Posted by Mike (FVThinker) Burns on February 15, 2009 at 9:17 am
I was trying to get back to topic (literalism) John.
Posted by ric booth on February 15, 2009 at 6:15 pm
I dunno John, with all the laughing I’m getting out of the comments I’m thinking you need to post this question to Mr. Answers!
Posted by Brian Walton on February 15, 2009 at 6:16 pm
If I didn’t have Christian friends that were richer then I was, then I would likely be homeless today.
We can’t be giving without something to give.
At the same time, a part of me would prefer the life of poverty. A man of powerful prayer can give so much more then I give with me meager weekly offering.
Posted by ric booth on February 15, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Doesn’t some small part of you really want to do that?
Posted by Live & Learn on February 17, 2009 at 8:54 am
John said:
“The point you’ve made is a great one that I should perhaps more often make: “conservative” (and I always put that word in quotes because it’s one of those … Infinitely Fungibles) Christians are guilty of nothing more than trying to follow the Bible. I’ve known at least as many selfish, arrogant, self-righteous, flat-out dumb “liberal’ Christians as I have conservative. At least conservative Xtians believe SOMETHING. Liberal Xtians are so busy modifying, trimming, reinterpreting and refashioning basic Christian truths that half the time you can’t tell the difference between what they believe and what you’d find on any fortune cookie, or on the side of any Starbucks cup. Snotty morons are everywhere, and no two ways about that.”
Amazing summary, John. You just opened the door to many more readers to feel welcome here! Discussion is all the more meaningful when all sides feel equally respected. Many thanks!
Posted by Andrew on February 17, 2009 at 9:47 am
“At least conservative Xtians believe SOMETHING.”
I hear this complaint often – that liberals don’t BELIEVE anything. I usually interpret that as “they don’t believe that which is conventional”. I am told constantly that I don’t BELIEVE the Bible… yet I quote scripture more often to explain my stances than most. Yet I still get that label of not believing. Why? I don’t believe the RIGHT things. It is easier to dismiss me as an unbeliever or a weak Christian than to meet me as an equal and wrestle with my interpretation of scripture.
Posted by gins lou on March 17, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Nowhere does scripture instruct us to sell off our possesions. When Jesus said that he was speaking to one person, the rich young ruler. Being wealthy, while it can lead to sin, is not itself a sin. God certainly liked Job and blessed him with great wealth.
Posted by An understanding consistency « Castle of Nutshells on March 22, 2009 at 12:08 am
[...] leads me to a point (that John kind of made here) on consistency: If my interpretation of scripture considers homosexuality a grey area, how can I [...]
Posted by Truthseeker on August 24, 2009 at 8:34 am
First, while I agree with many points…I would like to point out that compared to the rest of the world…you are wealthy. You are educated enough to read, write, and know how to use a computer. The fact that you even have a web page makes you wealthy. I have a problem when we preach things we aren’t willing to really walk out. I’ve lived in Uganda. Now, that is poverty. No clean water. No food. No parents (who either died from AIDS or Malaria). No clothing but mere rags. When we as writers can challenge others to a way of life…it is hypocritical to preach it from a place of extreme wealth.
Secondly, I am diametrically opposed to the prosperity “gospel” of lies. The lie that Jesus wants us to be rich is preposterous and does not like up with scripture (the abundant life can happen without money). But, let me offer another view point. Christ stayed with some fairly wealthy people who accepted him as Messiah and on several occasions if it weren’t for their wealth he and the disciples would not have been taken care of. Even Christ’s burial arrangements were taken care of by a wealthy follower. The same can be said of Paul for some of the instances he…as well as the church benefited from the help of the wealthy.
I do not believe God wants us to be rich. But, I do believe He has gifted some people in the Kingdom with the resources to help financially by being His hands and feet with their wealth. This is a heart issue…not a pocket issue. Robert Morris has a book called “The Blessed Life”. I don’t agree with everything he says…but he talks about extravagant givers to the Kingdom. I believe that some people are blessed to be a blessing. The Israelites walked out of Egypt with untold riches that helped build the temple, helped them bargain with locals, and helped them live. Many got caught up in wanting “things” rather than Christ. Therein lies the true problem. “Where your heart is there your treasure lies also”. When you care more about what you own than what Christ wants you to do with it….there is a problem. The rich guy in the parable wasn’t being chastised for being rich. He was being chastised for not being willing to give it up for Christ when He asked. We have to be willing to give up everything at any moment when He asks without reservation.
I know some folks that write about taking on a vow of poverty that have many piercings and tattoos. Unless those things are free and donated gifts…how much of that money could have gone to the poor and is wasted on adornment and aesthetics? I hold to the old adage “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”. We all have a long way to go.
Posted by Doubtful on August 24, 2009 at 8:48 am
Well, you conservative Christians may all make claims about how poor you are, but you still hate gay people. That’s nothing to brag about.
Posted by phdinprocreation on August 28, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Who ever said that the Gospels were written before the epistles is absolutely wrong. On any timeline Thessalonians and Romans came first, the Gospels came later . . .
Posted by marykretzmann on October 12, 2009 at 10:04 am
I think the quote about wealth needs to first be read in context of the gospel:
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
First Jesus tells him this:
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
But the man wants to do more for he has done these things since he was a child… he wants a greater challenge…He THINKS he wants to go the extra mile for God…
So…
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
and the man was attached to his wealth:
And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
4 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
BTW – a “needle’s eye” was a small door to get into the city – when the big gates were closed. So it is not literally a needle as for sewing. So a camel would have a hard time with that! but not quite impossible, I guess – if the camel is young and has fasted!
So of course they are despondent:
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
So – through God’s grace – the soul can be perfected – in ways we do not see as of yet…
So – i take it as a statement regarding the attachment to wealth and comfort…when others are still suffering. So person can be a follower of Christ and do what Jesus said at first to the man. If they want an even closer relationship – then Jesus gives the next step of self -offering – to live more in divine trust – “Come follow Me.”
WOW – the man was offered a chance to walk with Christ while he was alive in the body!
Amazing!
To be attached to one’s poverty is possible as bad as being attached to one’s wealth…if it brings a “holier than thou feeling, that is.
My point is – a person could take Christ “literally” on this and still have a range of choices on what level they are ready for…
Sincerely,
Mary K
Posted by bbvmck on October 24, 2009 at 12:33 pm
John, email me photographic evidence of your compliance with Jesus’ literal words and I will start reading Paul figuratively. That’s right when you chop off your hand and gouge out your eye I will ignore GLBTQ sinfulness and start reading Paul in a nuanced, more sensitive way. Until then I will continue to love the sinner and hate the sin without compromise.
bbvmck
Posted by Meg on November 5, 2009 at 7:04 pm
I could be off on this one but one way that I interpret it is that the rich man was claiming to be perfect wasn’t he? He said that he had kept all of the commandments since his youth. But the Bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, that there is not one that is righteous, except of course Jesus. So obviosly the rich man either really thought that he had kept all of the commandments or he was intentionally lying, so I think Jesus knew the rich man’s fault which was his love for money and he pointed it out to him. That showed the rich man that he wasn’t perfect and he did need a savior, who is Jesus.
But then again this could just be talking about rewards in heaven… since Jesus said that if the rich man did what he said he would have treasure in heaven.
Posted by marykretzmann on November 7, 2009 at 7:44 am
I don’t think the rich man was saying he was perfect – but that he had complied with what had been asked of him. For the commandments don’t overtly ask a person to not have love of money – it says, “Thou shalt not steal.”
However the commandments to love the Lord, and to have no false gods – could definitely be interpreted to not have the false idol of money. I think in the outer ways – this young man had complied – and yet he sensed there was more. However – the “more” was more than he bargained for. To have inner, mystical compliance, he needed to forsake his attachment to money and materialism, and to then be free to give himself totally to God…