God designed us with absolute and inviolate free will so that we could choose to be in relationship with him; the fidelity of a person who has no choice but to give it is worthless. God desires a real relationship with us, not one of zombie automaton to controlling master.
Granting us absolute and inviolate free will means granting us absolute and inviolate autonomy. That’s why God arranged for us to come into this world from nothing, and to leave it again into nothing (that we know of). That’s the only way for us to remain truly, permanently, organically autonomous.
It’s also why God doesn’t ever, in any objective, empirically verifiable way, “prove” he exists to anyone. Because then whomever he proved that to would have no choice but to believe in him—meaning their free will had been severely compromised. Which would render them unsuitable for a relationship.
Again, we’re meant to choose to be in relationship with God.
People are forever getting their relationship with God backwards. It’s supposed to be brain first, and then emotion.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Sarah didn't say she was divine, just a prophet. As I recall, most prophets don't raise people from the dead, and most are in fact prophets to a particular people, such the nation of Israel, or the Lenape nation, or whatever else. How is she any less sane than many Old Testament prophets (such as Samuel or Isaiah, for example)? God is (according to the Bible) eternally unchanging in his divine nature, so why would there cease to be such prophets? Also, what if she IS raising people from the dead (in at least the same sense as Jesus)?
It is most definitely about the proof. Sarah has the disadvantage of claiming divinity after the Enlightenment when such claims were put under the scrutiny of empiricism. There were plenty of 'miracles' from plenty of 'prophets' back in the first century.
You two missed her the most obvious failing of her claim…why would God send a prophet specific to some silly thing like a man-made state border (the U.S.)? If anything; her delusion is too restrained!
"Once you say, “I Know because I am the True Prophet for these United States,” you’ve officially marked yourself as crazy."
(grin) Wouldn't that be an argument for the Lunatic horn of the trilemma? Jesus said many things more out there than that.
Well, ben, when Sarah starts raising people from the dead, she can make any claim about herself she wants to. It's all about the proof.
Sarah: Here4Years is right. Once you say, "I Know because I am the True Prophet for these United States," you've officially marked yourself as crazy. Which means you won't listen. So never mind.
Sarah, seek professional help!
@benjdm
If you are promoting certainty, then you are promoting extremism…they correlate directly.
If all believers demonstrated a little humility and doubt in what they claimed to know, then you might not see non-believers feeling the need to engage in discussions such as this. Unshakable (and unjustified) certainty afflicts a minority of the believing population, and it is those that I speak against and unabashedly ridicule. If that ridicule offends or challenges the vast majority of moderate/pragmatic believers…well…there is not really anything that I can do about that until the moderate demonstrates the truth of their system of belief. Failure to do so while demanding respect for their beliefs is tacit protection of the extremist.
"Nothing but free argument, raillery and even ridicule will preserve the purity of religion." – Thomas Jefferson
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. " – Thomas Jefferson
@OldStuff1835:
Doesn't the Bible advocate against doubt in Hebrews 11:1?
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
Not unsure or uncertain, sure and certain.
typos… they=then…..subjugates=subjugated
@Pat
Doubt should be an essential aspect of belief. It is the lack of doubt that creates all the nastiness that theistic belief too often does. If the 9/11 hijackers weren't quite sure of their 72 virgins, they maybe we would still have the World Trade Center. If some weren't so sure of the divinity of the bible, then segments of society may not be unjustly demonized or or subjugates.
Doubt (at least in this context) is a very good thing. Certainty (at least in this context) is almost invariably a bad thing.
The most interesting thing about this to me is along the lines of Janelle's first question – put more broadly, your own personal doubt in the existence of God is an essential aspect of your relationship with God, and in fact you are arguing it should be an essential aspect of anyone's faith. In fact, presumably many (most?) times, apologists could preface their arguments against doubt with some statement like "Yes, that bothers me, too, and maybe there isn't a God. But here is why it make more sense to me that there is one…." But I wonder how many people here would agree with this concept of faith.
Sigh. No, it's not nonsense, Rude Boy. You have no choice but to believe that a square has four equal sides; in that sense, your "free will" relative to that matter is, in fact, eradicated. But that eradication ONLY pertains to the truth about squares; it reaches no further beyond that. The reason that having God proven to you with equal conclusiveness would automatically eradicate your will is because so much (if not all) of your will is ABOUT trying to find answers to a trillion questions about you and life that, at the moment of God's being utterly known to you, would be a mystery no more. You'd slump to the ground like a spineless automoton before you could say, "Oh, so that's what happens to people after they die."
And could you at least TRY to be a little gracious in your comments. Why present your perfectly legitimate questions as, above all, an insult?
Hmmm….so, you say that if God 'proved' he exists, then this would compromise our free will. So, all the things that I believe based upon scientific and mathematical proofs undermine my free will? Interesting, but, of course, nonsensical, argument.
It is pretty safe to say that EVERYONE has [what some describe as] 'spiritual' experiences. Nobody denies the experience; just some people just think there are actual 'spirits' involved. I prefer the term transcendent…and I have them as often as anybody…no 'spirits' involved.
What is the word for an essence transcendant? Is it not a spirit? like the American spirit, or a spirit of thanksgiving, or a generous spirit, or the spirit of the law, or YOUR spirit? What else is there about you that anyone could describe as spiritual?
There IS a lot of variation in people's brains. I've had experiences I thought of as sort-of-religious, in the sense of extraordinary joy and feeling 'spread out.' Those experiences were almost all while listening to music. One other was a foos-ball game in Georgia during a port call.
….. so…. how about them Cubs?
Sometimes, when people write these comments, I wonder if they have had a Spiritual experience at all. You are so “book learned”.
The Calling can be of 2 forms. There is a Calling of the Lord God Almighty, Himself, as of the Prophets in the Old Testament. There is a Calling of "Jesus Christ", as He is called by the present day christian church, as He Called His Disciples.
The Calling of the Almighty God, Himself, is both a mind and a heart issue. You definitely Know that God Himself is Calling. He Calls you by Name. You have Biblical description to back the Calling. And… the Voice that is Calling is NOT that of your own earthly father. Or mother for that matter, as some people have tried to state has happened.
The Calling of "Jesus Christ" is a heart issue. He pulls at your heart and it is emotion that takes over. "Jesus" soothes your sadness, He Comforts your grief, He Heals your illness and Loves you Unconditionally. He is Always at your side, although you may not See Him. The Holy Spirit is the generator of the Knowing Information. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell with you to keep you safe, Knowing and in Peace.
Any good christian pastor will confess he/she wants to see crying and a person who is completely emotionally distraught and traumatized so they can “mold” that person into the “christian” they want that person to be. "Jesus" would never do this to anyone. He would never publicly humiliate His "sheep". He would never knock you over so you could hit your head on the ground. He is Kind, Loving and Compassionate. He Protects His Own. Just as He Protected His Followers (from the priests and other religious fanatics of the time) while He was alive, He Protects His "sheep" today from those who are not yet Saved or of Understanding.
The Calling of God or Jesus Christ is a Private CALLING. It is not meant to be public, although it may occur in public. The Calling of God is to a nation, through a single person. The Calling of "Jesus" is to a single individual through their heart. "Jesus" does not "speak" to a person; it is a Knowing that is there in your mind. You will Know what He is saying to you without Hearing a Voice. God, however, Speaks Clearly and cannot be denied. God doesn't change. He continues to deal with the world as He did in Old Testament days.
How do I Know? I Know because I am the True Prophet for these United States. I received my Calling from the Lord God Almighty, Himself, at the age of 9 years old. He Spoke Clearly in the night, Calling my name.
Be careful praying for people who are Saved of God. You will not Know who they are. Your Spiritual Attack will come back to you like a boomarang, only BIGGER. This is the same Message I gave pastors in the State of Georgia in the late 1990s. There is so much Spiritual Attack generated because of prayer for the salvation of those who God Himself has Saved. "Jesus" Saves no one. Scripture tells you that He was Delegated Authority from the Father. The Saving Grace comes from God Alone, through "Jesus". Prayers for Salvation generate Spiritual Attack. A person will unknowingly go to the source of Spiritual Attack and try to appease the generator by making that person "happy" so the Spiritual Attack will cease. The “altar call” is a man generated event. "Jesus" never performed an altar call… He Called to people to Join Him in talking about and appreciating the Words of God, to Join Him in Living out Godly lives, to Join Him in Living Eternal Life.
Love Always and God Bless, Sarah
With all due respect; EVERYTHING you describe is in the brain, so the title reference "Brain First, THEN Emotion" makes little sense. If you mean to intimate "Reason First, THEN Emotion", then there might be a basis for discussion.
My contribution to that discussion would be that 'Reason' can mean many things…and there are good reasons and there are bad reasons. In the apologetic's vernacular (as on display here); 'brain' and 'reason' are shorthand for their their muddled understanding of things like 'evidence' and 'empiricism'. The reality is that there is no 'evidence' for the apologist's deity of choice, nor can their deity be empirically supported…even a little bit.
The 'reason' that the believer has is that their belief seems to answer questions that they don't understand nor care to answer properly. It does not mean that that there is any truth to their belief…just that it makes things 'work' for the believer. But which is worse? ….knowing that you don't have the wrong answer? …or thinking you have the right answer and being wrong?
It is pretty safe to say that believers in deities are in the latter group.
Thinking about it some more, aren't you contradicting yourself? You claim you have absolute, inviolable free will and that you can choose to believe something. When I asked if you could choose to believe I was a squid, you seemed to indicate that you couldn't, though you weren't explicit: "I can look at you and see you’re not a squid."
Actually you cannot see me. All you can see are words on your screen. So you might not have answered the question at all.
I will tell you "I am a squid" as outlined in Lynn's comment above. If you do have absolute, inviolable free will and an ability to choose your beliefs then you can choose to believe I'm a squid – even though your understanding of squids is that they don't know english, or know how to type, etc. Can you actually do that? I'm being serious here. For myself, I can try and fancifully imagine a squid typing out a message, or pretend a squid typed out the message, but I can't believe it. I can't ignore all the other reasons to think that a human wrote the message instead of a squid. The weight of the evidence points at a human author and I cannot choose to believe otherwise.
Then you, like Lynn, have an ability I lack. I cannot fathom choosing beliefs.
Right. But I can choose to believe in (in my case) the truth of Christian theology. And I do. And I see no evidence to dissuade me that I’m wrong in that choice.
That’s fine. I don’t think you’ve claimed an ability to choose beliefs, which is what I’m questioning. You seem to be agreeing – that you can’t choose to believe something either. If I type like a person, look like a person, etc., you can’t choose to believe I’m a squid upon hearing the message.
I can look at you and see you’re not a squid. There’s nothing I can look at that proves to me there’s not a God. You look inside yourself and outside at the world, and see no God. I look inside myself and outside at the world, and see nothing else.
One of us is wrong. So? We’ll know soon enough. I won’t mind at all if I’ve spent my life with the belief system I have and it turns out I’m wrong. How would that have hurt me?
How in the heck can you choose to believe? Can you choose to believe that I'm a squid? If you can, you have an ability I lack.
Robert: I think the reason why those who don't believe in god would so heartedly reject the notion that god created the universe is because up until a certain point those who "represent" go on earth spent so much time denouncing scientific evidence that the earth is round, the unvierse is billions of years old, etc. There are those of faith who still can't acknowledge the earth is 3 billion years old.
Granted, I try to seperate the "faith" from the person who would make such ridiculous comments, but, nevertheless, it gives everyone of faith a bad image, just like Russian Communism gave a bad rap to atheism as if they were one in the same idea.
John: If the global representatives of the respective world religions shared that same view of god, the world would be a better place
You, too!
Have a safe 4th, John.
Wrong. I can believe until my arms fall off that I can fly. Won't change a thing.
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