Sitting at Starbucks yesterday I overheard the following exchange between two men I’ll call Bob and Dan. I recount it here not to make any point of my own, but because it perfectly captures the kind of logjam we Christians so often reach when trying to explain our beliefs to non-Christians.
Dan: But that just doesn’t make any sense.
Bob: What doesn’t?
Dan: That the same God who loves me might very well condemn me to hell for all eternity. If he would do that to me, then what God feels for me cannot be love.
Bob: But it is. God loves you enough to let you determine your own fate.
Dan: But at the last minute God could change the fate I’ve chosen for myself if he wanted to. If God really wanted me to be okay after I die, he could choose to send me to heaven instead of hell. Right? He has that power, right?
Bob: Yes. God can do anything.
Dan: Which can only mean that if I end up in hell, that was God’s will. God actively chose that for me. He could have changed it, but he didn’t.
Bob: You chose that fate for yourself by refusing to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
Dan: That I made that mistake doesn’t alter the fact that God has chosen to punish me for that mistake by forcing me to spend eternity being physically tortured. And anyone who would choose that for me—who would choose to punish me eternally just for having used the mind and soul he gave me to arrive at a conclusion that displeases him—cannot possible love me. That’s not love. It’s something. It sounds to me like the worst kind of shallow vindictiveness. But it’s certainly not love.
Bob: It’s divine justice.
Dan: Whatever. It’s not love. Look: After I’m dead, God either has the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t have that power, then he’s too weak to matter. If he does have the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, and he wills me to go to hell, then he’s without compassion—or at the very least he certainly doesn’t love me. That’s your choice. By your own definition your god is either not all-powerful, or not all-loving. But he can’t be both.
Bob: You’re looking for rational explanations for mysteries that only God comprehends.
Dan: That’s so typical. Whenever Christians run into a simple logical inconsistency that cuts directly to the viability of their entire belief system, they resort to the only “argument” usually left them, which is that we mere mortals can’t possibly understand how and why God works the way he does. At the slightest challenge you absolutely abandon logic. It’s ridiculous—and should be embarrassing to you. If you can’t explain the simplest, most obvious, most terrible contradiction in the qualities you say your God possesses, how in the world to you expect anyone but an idiot to take you or your religion seriously?
Bob: God bless you, man. I fear for your soul.
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I agree that God cannot love me with His electing love and then send me to the Lake of Fire. God is often patient and tender with the wicked for a long time as we measure time, but Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1-2 make it clear that His electing love precedes our response of repentance and faith. Yes, God’s treatment of Pharaoh and of Esau in Romans 9 also teach that He exercises His right to condemn as well as to bless based on His own plan which is in no way contingent on our responses. Our default setting from the Fall forward has ben to deny and defy God. If God chooses not to change it through His Holy Spirit, then matters will run their course right through the condemnation of Matthew 25:31-46. We will never change that fatal default setting on our own — we naturally like it too much! We make genuine choices because we cannot know God’s will before He reveals it, but His plan controls in sovereign power.
I struggled with this question for a long time myself; and Dr. Adrain Rogers gave a Biblical answer to it in one of his sermons that has really satisfied me with that question. I’ll try to condense what he said for you (if it gets long, then hang in there, I am not going to give all of the verses). He used 4 – R’s as follows:
1. Revelation – ‘All men’ are given ‘some’ light by God. John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
The witnesses to this light are creation and conscience. Creation as seen in Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Conscience as seen in Romans 1:18-19 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
2. Refusal – Light refused increases darkness. This can be seen in Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
A man denies the Truth because of his sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
3. Reception – Light obeyed increases light. Creation and conscience show us the fact of God but not the way to God. God is under no obligation to show a man the way to God who is not even interested in the fact of God.
Luke 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.”
God has given to each man a measure of faith and it is the man’s responsibility to respond to it. If he does he is given more light, if he rejects it because of his sin, the truth he has will be taken from him. If someone has progressed enough in the truth that they are ready to hear the gospel and know the way of salvation; God will send somebody.
There are countless stories like this in Christiandom – if you listen to people’s testimonies of how they came to Christ, you will see that many, many Christians were led to salvation by perfect strangers that they never saw again. There is an instance in the Bible in Acts 8:26-40 where God sends Phillip out into the desert to speak with an Ethiopian about the way of salvation. It is a great story. Phillip chases him down in his chariot and jumps aboard to explain to him the ancient scriptures. The Ethiopian beleives in the Lord Jesus Christ and gets baptized.
There are also stories in the Bible where a missionary did not go, but the Lord himself went. The apostle Paul was met by Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus and was led to salvation by the Lord.
I was just recently listening to a Pastor speak who has one of the only Christian churches in Iran. He shared several stories about Muslims who were visited in a dream by Jesus and led to salvation. The church in Iran today is actually growing way faster than most churches in the west, and there are hardly any Christian teachers in Iran because of the intense persecution.
Pastor Rogers said that he believes the scriptures teach that “there has never been a man who has lived or died without an opportunity to receive Chirst had they lived up to the light that God gave them.”
4. Reconning – We will not be judged by the sin we have committed; but we will be judged by the light we have rejected.
Romans 2:4-8 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
According to this passage – all have sinned and must repent before a holy God and ‘SEEK’ to do good. It is not Christianity as a religion that saves us (the Bible talks of many who think they are saved who are not) – it is the right understanding of who God is and who we are; and knowing that God has made the way to be right with him through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Because God is Righteous – the price for our sins had to be paid by soembody. Accepting Jesus work on the cross with a truly repentant heart restores our relationship with Holy God.
Well, this sermon was very helpful to me; I hope you can gain something from it as well. Dr. Rogers said one other thing in this sermon that I always remembered – regarding people who doubt the existance of God and the work of Jesus on the cross.
He said that there are two kinds of doubters – honest and dishonest.
Honest doubters really want to know the truth and have just not yet found sufficient light to answer what their hearts want to know.
Dishonest doubters cannot find God for the same reason that a theif cannot find a policeman!
I looked in his sermon archives, but I couldn’t find the link for the sermon I am talking about here. You might enjoy listening to some of his other sermons though, he is a wonderful Bible teacher. http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/listen/broadcast-archives.html
I know for a fact that I believe in a higher power/creator. There are simply too many things that point to this. For instance, if the Sun was any closer to Earth we would burn up and life would cease to exist. If it was farther away, we would freeze to death. If we did not have a moon, life very well may not exist. Everything just came together perfectly for life on Earth to exist…it just makes sense that this was all part of a higher power's plan. Look at our human bodies…they are incredible in every way. Go study just a fraction of anatomy and physiology and see how many thousands of things inside of us work together for us to function the way we do…and not only that, but the fact that all of these tiny processes and "parts to a whole" HAVE to work this way or we can die. Their are just way too many coincidences for there not to be a creator.
However, I grew up in the SE United States, aka the "Bible Belt." Basically the only religion I grew up around was Christianity. Therefore, if I was going to believe in anything, the overwhelming odds were that it was going to be Christianity. I consider myself a Christian, but I would be lying to you all if I said I did not have any doubts. However, my MAIN doubt is the one stated below.
"If you were born in saudi arabia chances are you would be Islamic talking about how you believe in allah and that he is the only way. So people that are born in the wrong place, at the wrong time like native americans who were killed and raped by christian faith based people will burn in hell because they never accepted jesus in their life? This is just?"
Every time I mention this point to fellow believers, they can't give me a satisfactory (for me) answer! It is so frustrating! I am not naive enough to think that if I grew up in the Middle East that I would still be Christian. I'm pretty certain that if all of my friends and family were of a different religion, say Islam, that I would be of Islamic faith as well. Combine all of that influence with a culture that you could be killed if you do not believe in a certain religion (plenty of cultures out there like that, I was lucky not to grow up somewhere like that), and that only furthers my point. Would I go to hell simply bc I wasn't surrounded by the "right" influences?? Would I go to hell essentially bc I grew up in the wrong place at the wrong time??
Don't give me this argument that "that is what missionaries are for"…bc missionaries don't reach near everyone. Also, let's imagine an Islamic missionary coming to Alabama, where I live, to preach to me about converting to his/her religion or I'm going to hell. I can tell you it really would take an act of God for that to happen. Fact is is that there is way too much Christian influence around me…my family is Christian and so are several of my friends. Plus, I am partial to Christianity due to what I've been taught all my life! The odds of me converting to Islam are next to NOTHING. Therefore, putting yourself in their shoes, how would hardly any people actually convert to Christianity if the situation were reversed?
I just can't imagine my God punishing these people for being born into another religion. How is that fair?? What if someone has FAITH and believes in something you cannot see (like Jesus)? What if they live to follow their covenant and try to live with good morals at the same time? What if they believe in a higher power and believe life actually has a purpose and that there is something after this life on Earth for mankind? Are these people going to hell bc they grew up somewhere where Christianity was in the vast minority? This is by far my number question. There are so many religions out there…enough to NOT have time to study near all of them. How do I know that I picked the RIGHT one in order to have eternal life?? Why do these other people go to hell when they were pretty much born into other religions, not by choice of their own??
Can someone ACTUALLY attempt to really answer this question???!!
I'm not sure if I can really answer this question, but I'm willing to let you know what I think.
“If you were born in Saudi Arabia chances are you would be Islamic talking about how you believe in Allah and that he is the only way. So people that are born in the wrong place, at the wrong time like Native Americans who were killed and raped by christian faith based people will burn in hell because they never accepted Jesus in their life? This is just?”
No, it isn't just, which is why I don't believe it is true. I do believe that Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, but God didn't stop revealing himself with the life of Jesus. I believe that God is ruthless in his love for all people (all beings for that matter) and so will do whatever it takes to bring us home to him. If that means going through other religions, God will use other religions. God isn't nearly as prissy about these things as some of us like to think. To me, rigid dogmatism and the need to threaten other people with dire penalties (both now and after death) for failing to buy into that dogmatism–these things are more about our own fear and need to be right than they are about God.
In the end, God looks at our hearts, not our heads. So it's less about picking "the right religion" than it is about having the right attitude–one that loves God (however we understand him/her) and loves neighbor (all people being our neighbors.)
Diana A.,
Thanks for your comments. I've tried to imagine God letting all people into heaven that have faith, try to live with good morals, believe in a creator, believe that life has a purpose, believe that once you die life doesn't simply end and there is nothing else left, etc. However, I don't mention this to fellow Christians bc I know that would completely be against the idea. If this really was the case, it would make my commitment to Christianity much more solid.
Jeanine,
I really appreciate this effort, and it does definitely help me out. The explanations make sense and I've gained more from your answer than any other I've heard before. It puts me at ease more so than in the past. That's pretty awesome about that church in Iran too.
With all of that said, there is still something irking me. Let's say God "sends someone" your way that witnesses to you temporarily…and you live in an area dominated by another religion. If you want to convert to Christianity and follow God in order to be saved, that is wonderful. However, when that messenger is gone, what then? I can easily see this being a "religious high" of sorts. I've had them. Over time, and being influenced by friends and family on a daily basis, you might stray back to the religion you have been brought up in…in fact, that is the very likely scenario. In this instance, would God continuously find ways to put Jesus into your heart? Or would this be God's one and only offer that you better not reject or you will go to hell? Would this be the "refusal of seeing the light" as you mention?? I mean, this type of person would want to accept God, but there would be just so much outside influence that could very well hinder this from happening. I would hope God would find many more ways to reach someone in this situation due to them not being surrounded by Christians whatsoever. It just doesn't seem like everyone is on the same playing field when it comes to being influenced to follow God and get into heaven..? That is what I have a problem with. God is all powerful and all knowing…so I could assume that he can reach anyone that wants to be reached…that he will send someone or put a vision in someone's head in order to reach them (even in somewhere like the Middle East). Logically speaking, however, this is just so hard for me to honestly believe.
I am very analytical, and this makes taking things at face value harder for me to do. Some people can just say "okay, sounds good" and believe in something for the rest of their life. I struggle very much with this, which hinders my commitment to Christianity. It makes me question my faith more so than most I think. I don't like being like this, but I cannot help myself. I realize I'm never going to come close to understanding everything, understanding God's will for others (heck, I don't know God's will for me yet). However, I need to know and accept my God not only as a loving God, but ALSO as a FAIR God in order to devote my life to him. I believe in Jesus, that he died on the cross to save us from our sins, etc. However, the doubts I mention are keeping me from giving my life to God, from living like a Christian should live, etc. I know deep inside that I have a GOOD heart. However, I don't live like a Christian should. I don't set a Godly example. I don't read His word like I should. I pray, but not like I should. I still desire to go out with friends and party, which is not the Christian thing to do. I've just never had this burning desire to change yet. I've been saved, but I know I need to change my ways in order to make sure I have a spot in paradise with God. I guess the fairest thing to say is that I LIKE God right now, but I'm not in LOVE with God to the point where I strive everyday to do what he would want. I hope a burning desire comes over me soon, but until these doubts/questions go away, I doubt that happens. The worst part about it is that while I know I need to change, I don't have an urge to make the effort. I don't have an urge to read His word even though I know I need to. I don't know if I'm ready to give up the lifestyle I have now. This is just a confusing time, and I know that I could perish tomorrow (which is scary). I think I would go to heaven, but I don't KNOW that I would go to heaven. It's not the most secure feeling in the world.
You sound a lot like me in terms of how your mind works.
Regarding your first question, the Bible says over and over again that 'God is not willing that any should perish, but that 'all' should come to repentance.' No way do I think He gives us one chance and then, hey forget you. Actually, I think he gives us every possible chance; until he knows that our hearts and minds are made up and have really decided either for or against him.
Think of Pharaoh in Egypt. God could have just struck him dead, blinded the Egyptians and made the way of escape for his people. He could have just zapped them out without a trace. But no, he gave Pharaoh a choice to obey Him. Again and again God spoke to him, sending signs and wonders -proving to Pharaoh who He was. Ten times he tried to get Pharoah to repent and finally Pharoah let God's people go. They left and God sent no more judgement on Pharaoh. But it did not end there. Pharoah changed his mind and in open rebellion against God, tried to overtake the children of Israel to recapture them. Only then does God destroy Pharoah.
I think God is patient beyond anything we could imagine. But I also think that the Bible teaches that His patience will come to an end.
Psalm 95 says,
Today, if you will hear His voice: 8 "Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 When your fathers tested Me; They tried Me, though they saw My work. 10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, 'It is a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.' 11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
And please allow me to share one other thing.
When I was in college years ago, I was asking all kinds of questions like this. I was also raised a Christian and believed in Jesus and his death on the cross. My architecture major had a small class, so for all five years I was in class with the same people daily. There was a group of about 5 'born-again' Christians in that class. I had both a respect for them and sort of a disgust for them.
They were perfectly harmless and never said a mean word to anyone; they had a great bond between themselves; and seemed to really live out what they said they believed. This I guess is why I respected them. However, I was also disgusted by them because I thought they were looking down on me (a liked to party as well). I thought they were self-righteous and had a holier-than-thou attitude. I knew I wasn't perfect and thought that I was forgiven by God just like they were. Who gave them the right to act so pure? I was not going to be so conceited; I was going to hang around with sinners just like Jesus did.
Well, fast-forward about 6 or 7 years. I was now a single mom, with a 4-year old and my fiance' (who I had been dating for 6 years) cheats on me while we were planning the wedding. I had always tried so hard to be a good person in my heart (if not so in my actions); but now I found myself in a deep, deep pit. This is where God met me. He showed me the darkness of my own heart and how many times I had rejected Him and His ways. I was completely broken and very sorry. Sorry for everything really, my whole life.
And miracle upon miracle; he lifted me out of that pit and I became 'born-again'. The blood of Jesus washed me whiter than snow. He removed the darkness that stood between me and Him. My heart came alive and the things I used to do became disgusting to me, because they had really kept me from knowing who God is. He changed me inside and out and continues to change me daily. Just like watching a baby learn and grow; I can see myself learn and grow to be more like Him. I couldn't even help myself when it came to reading the Bible. I craved it. I still do.
I now understand that being 'born-again' is something that happens to us; it is not something we say we are. And the goodness I saw in those kids in college was not self-righteousness, it was His righteousness. He gave it to them, they did not develop it on their own.
I hope you understand what I am saying. I don't think everyone needs to be in a pit like me to recieve God's grace; but I guess I was just such a know-it-all, it was the only way he could get my attention.
I hope you will be blessed Marshall, and come to realize that the lifestyle we try to hang on to is really just a lie – nothing can compare to the goodness and joy of knowing the one true God, being 'born-again' and sure of our salvation our inheritance in Christ. Everything else just falls away and we don't miss it one bit. He does not just ask us to give up this and that; when we are sincere; He fills us up to overflowing with truly good things that bring us life and love and joy and peace and friendship and answers and so on and so on…..
He takes away our sinfulness and fills us up with Himself.
This is one reason, I think, why people start believing in reincarnation: because then you'd get more chances to "straighten up and fly right".
I come from a scientific/physics background…although I use alternative medicine and find it works well, too. I'm more apt to believe that however we were created, we work via some basic principles…including for instance that being angry all the time makes you sick and being forgiving and loving makes you well. Perhaps "Heaven" and "Hell" are simply the completely NATURAL result of how you interact with the world, how you feel…the more fear, the worse you feel, the more love, the better, kindof thing. Have you ever seen one of those really rabid fear-mongers on TV? I don't think they are happy or relaxed. They are ALREADY living in Hell…?
I'd like to think that we get an infinite number of lives to experience the whole gamut from Hitler to Mother Teresa, to test out which brings us higher, which makes us lower, and eventually, we will ALL find our way "up" to him/her. And in the meantime, we experience the consequences in our own bodies and lives right now, of our current choices.
Personally i believe in God. but i have always believed that hell was reserved for the lowest of the low, Murderers, Rapists, Phaedophiles. I simply will not believe that god would judge us and condemn us to hell forever because we do not believe in him. God knows we are not perfect. God loves us and forgives us. Would you condemn someone you love to hell for all eternity?
Stuart,
If you believe in God, then you must believe in His Word and that He is righteous and soverign. Meaning, He can do what He wants, so what you personally think will happen about hell will not matter. Getting into heaven is not as easy as you believe. Read Luke 13:22-30 about how narrow the way is into heaven. The Bible is clear that if someone is not saved, asking Jesus into their heart, then this person will spend an eternity in hell. Murderers, Rapists, and Phaedophiles will be there as well (only if they do not repent and ask forgiveness of their sins), but so will all non-believers and some people who thought they were Christians.
God's love is unconditional. He sent His Son to die for us in order to take place of our sins. God did not have to die for our sins. He did this out of His grace, mercy, and love for us.
And yes, God does know we are not perfect. We are all born into sin due to Adam and Eve's Fall, so it is vital that all people accept Christ as their Savior on this earth. God will not let an unsaved person into heaven (someone who does not have a relationship with Him- Luke 13:22-30). And that is why we need a sacrifice, blood (life), for our sins. Jesus Christ is the ultimate and only sacrifice for the sins of the world. It is true that God does love us and forgives us, but the breaking of His laws cannot be forgiven until a perfect sacrifice has been made. Jesus Christ was that sacrifice because He never sinned (making Him perfect).
God doesn't want us to go to Hell. If God gave us these commands in Exodus 20, that Jesus also elaborated on in the gospels, and we failed to keep these commands but God let us enter into heaven anyways, then God would not be just. There are penalties for sin, which is hell.
A person must ask for their sins to be forgiven and repent of those sins. God took everybody's sins with Him on the cross, but in order to avoid hell a person must accept Christ to dwell in their heart.
After only a few seconds of a person's death, that person will realize how he/she should haved lived their life here on earth. God loves everyone. He is a just God. And, He desires a relationship with all of us.
The Bible consitently supports this, so I cannot use all of the scripture to help me back everything up. So, read the Bible and you will gain more evidence supporting my statements.
If god is in the BUSINESS of keeping people out of hell his business has went bankrupt thousands of years ago. How is it man puts more power in their will to sin over gods will to save his own creation. This is where the bible becomes very contradictory. Adam's will to sin against all of our wills and choic3s (because we didn't say hey adam sin for us so we can all be born into sin) is greater than christs will to save all man against their wills. We have more power than christ and god because we can send ourselves to hell and he can't save us unless we want to be saved.
So why is it an earthly parent would never allow their child to burn forever? That would indicate that an earthly love is greater than gods love for us. Even human beings wouldn't allow each other to burn forever. We are far too compassionate for that yet we believe our all loving god will burn us?
We nefer created ourselves. We didn't ask to be born under which parents, or which nation or which social status. Yet all of this plays a huge part in which religion you are raised under and how you morally form as a person. A child that is born under a wicked set of parents has close to no chance at heaven because they will be taught that right is wrong and wrong is right. So they grow up only living based on how their parents taught them and eventually die and burn in hell based on circumstances they had no control over. Yet religious folks claim we CHOOSE hell because we are born faulty and imperfect..
No one is perfect therefore you would have to repent every second of the day to have a good chance of making it to heaven. the bible says if you think of a sin it's a sin so literally no one would make heaven unless they got extremely lucky and god allowed them to die at the perfect time in life where they just asked for forgiveness.
I think it's time to find a new way of thinking because love should never be fueled by fear of death or pain. That is not true love.;
Preach it Che!!
Andy how is it that god is punishing us as soon as we are born before we can even sin? How is it we are being punished to being created imperfect when we did not create ourselves?
If a machine breaks to you blame the machine or the maker of that machine?
God could have created a place where there is no pain, no sorrow, no sin just us living forever with him yet he chose to create pain, sin and suffering and tell us to somehow figure out why we are here out of all of the religions that are out there. If you were born in saudi arabia chances are you would be Islamic talking about how you believe in allah and that he is the only way. So people that are born in the wrong place, at the wrong time like native americans who were killed and raped by christian faith based people will burn in hell because they never accepted jesus in their life? This is just?
If god is in the BUSINESS of keeping people out of hell his business has went bankrupt thousands of years ago. How is it man puts more power in their will to sin over gods will to save his own creation. This is where the bible becomes very contradictory. Adam's will to sin against all of our wills and choices (because we didn't say hey adam sin for us so we can all be born into sin) is greater than christs will to save all man against their wills. We have more power than christ and god because we can send ourselves to hell and he can't save us unless we want to be saved.
So why is it an earthly parent would never allow their child to burn forever? That would indicate that an earthly love is greater than gods love for us. Even human beings wouldn't allow each other to burn forever. We are far too compassionate for that yet we believe our all loving god will burn us?
We never created ourselves. We didn't ask to be born under which parents, or which nation or which social status. Yet all of this plays a huge part in which religion you are raised under and how you morally form as a person. A child that is born under a wicked set of parents has close to no chance at heaven because they will be taught that right is wrong and wrong is right. So they grow up only living based on how their parents taught them and eventually die and burn in hell based on circumstances they had no control over. Yet religious folks claim we CHOOSE hell because we are born faulty and imperfect..
No one is perfect therefore you would have to repent every second of the day to have a good chance of making it to heaven. the bible says if you think of a sin it's a sin so literally no one would make heaven unless they got extremely lucky and god allowed them to die at the perfect time in life where they just asked for forgiveness.
I think it's time to find a new way of thinking because love should never be fueled by fear of death or pain. That is not true love.
Repeating Pamela:
Did he punish sin.
More like we punish ourselves. In that 'sin' can be defined as working against God's will, summed up by Jesus as to love him with all and to love others. A tall order, yet when we don't do this, when we take another path, we, and often others, suffer.
Hi John.
As much as I want to say yes, sadly, I cannot.
I have 3 Native lines from my Grandparents -Great Grandfather and Grandmother were fullblood. Yet there is no paper trail that I can find that I can claim as proof of Native Blood. At least not any that I can find; yet. And, also sadly, due to the stigma heeped upon Natives forced to convert to a White world, their Native heritage was lost or forced to be forgoten or face further discrimination and intimidation.
However, the Creator still found a way to lead me to my path. If one needs to label my walk- it is roughly a Lakota path I strive to walk. As with most, my path has been long and windy. (I may post a bit of it on my blog…) I cannot exclusively claim Lakota as a title or creed, yet my Heart belongs to Creator and the Chanupa the Creator led me to carry.
Each must follow the Path Creator sets them on. We each have a song to sing. Some of these are Christian, some are not. Some carry a Cross, others a Chanupa, and other yet other Ways. There are many songs that need to be sung, many voices that Creator has given each. It just not all one monotonous tone, but a chorus of millions, each singing in the Harmony Creator has led them to….
May we all find our song and sing it in Beauty and Truth, wether it be Christian or Lakota, Hindu or Muslim, Wiccan or Tibetan…
Aho! Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations),
~julia
Julia: Are you Lakota?
Hi Andy.
I do not subscribe to the Christian concept of original sin. Never have. Of course in your god's eyes this means I am in rebellion, which is another concept I do not subsribe to. This concept has humans born as damaged goods, not pleasing to god. Only way to repair this inborn damage is for you to admitt that you are born damaged (or damned) and worship JC for only JC can fix the damage and thus can make you good enough for god. In short you are born broken and the only cure is JC.
How convenient, dont you think?
Again, you tried, but it stil spins around that you better well worship JC or else.
BTW, 'Mitakuye Oyasin' is not a name; it is a prayer in Lakota: 'All my relations.'
Peace,
~julia
Mitakuye,
I freely and willingly acknowledge that I believe Jesus is the Way of salvation; I wasn't attempting to suggest otherwise.
We are not being punished because we will not worship Jesus. We were condemned already, because of our sin, our rebellion against God. This is a main theme of scripture which is important for us to understand. But we Christians don't like talking about it, maybe because it is no fun. So we don't. And that leads to misconceptions outside the church — for example, that God is punishing us for not worshipping Him.
For sure, there are plenty of people through the last 2000 years who have wrapped themselves in the cloak of 'Christianity' and have committed crimes in the name of God. Real Christians, the members of the real church, have always been a spiritual minority. Those who committed murder, genocide, theft, oppression, were not sent by God. God did not tell them to do what they did. It did not even enter God's mind to tell them to do that.
There are going to be some surprised people at the Last Judgement. Some of the most surprised people may be the 'Christians' who never really repented of their sin and who committed those crimes in the name of God. Many of them may well wind up in Hell. I wouldn't want to join them.
We don't know what it's going to be like — facing the God of the universe, the new order of things, etc. No matter what we envision, it is almost certainly wrong, maybe way off.
Best wishes,
Andy
I was walking in town yesterday and saw a store I had never seen before. It was called "Heaven and Hell Tattoos and Piercing". This got me thinking about the subject (not tattoos and piercing, but heaven and hell). So I thought I would post in my blog on the subject this morning. As I was checking Facebook I ran across this post, and it helped prompt my thinking Thanks.
My commentary can be found at http://www.slownewday.wordpress.com. There are a couple good links there for further study.
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