Sitting at Starbucks yesterday I overheard the following exchange between two men I’ll call Bob and Dan. I recount it here not to make any point of my own, but because it perfectly captures the kind of logjam we Christians so often reach when trying to explain our beliefs to non-Christians.
Dan: But that just doesn’t make any sense.
Bob: What doesn’t?
Dan: That the same God who loves me might very well condemn me to hell for all eternity. If he would do that to me, then what God feels for me cannot be love.
Bob: But it is. God loves you enough to let you determine your own fate.
Dan: But at the last minute God could change the fate I’ve chosen for myself if he wanted to. If God really wanted me to be okay after I die, he could choose to send me to heaven instead of hell. Right? He has that power, right?
Bob: Yes. God can do anything.
Dan: Which can only mean that if I end up in hell, that was God’s will. God actively chose that for me. He could have changed it, but he didn’t.
Bob: You chose that fate for yourself by refusing to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
Dan: That I made that mistake doesn’t alter the fact that God has chosen to punish me for that mistake by forcing me to spend eternity being physically tortured. And anyone who would choose that for me—who would choose to punish me eternally just for having used the mind and soul he gave me to arrive at a conclusion that displeases him—cannot possible love me. That’s not love. It’s something. It sounds to me like the worst kind of shallow vindictiveness. But it’s certainly not love.
Bob: It’s divine justice.
Dan: Whatever. It’s not love. Look: After I’m dead, God either has the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t have that power, then he’s too weak to matter. If he does have the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, and he wills me to go to hell, then he’s without compassion—or at the very least he certainly doesn’t love me. That’s your choice. By your own definition your god is either not all-powerful, or not all-loving. But he can’t be both.
Bob: You’re looking for rational explanations for mysteries that only God comprehends.
Dan: That’s so typical. Whenever Christians run into a simple logical inconsistency that cuts directly to the viability of their entire belief system, they resort to the only “argument” usually left them, which is that we mere mortals can’t possibly understand how and why God works the way he does. At the slightest challenge you absolutely abandon logic. It’s ridiculous—and should be embarrassing to you. If you can’t explain the simplest, most obvious, most terrible contradiction in the qualities you say your God possesses, how in the world to you expect anyone but an idiot to take you or your religion seriously?
Bob: God bless you, man. I fear for your soul.
(Similar post o’ mine: Jesus the Decider: Who Gets Into Heaven?)
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Posted by Becky Johnson on August 23, 2009 at 9:39 am
I know I am sticking my theological neck out there, but this is why I think more and more thinking/compassionate Christians believe in universal salvation, ultimately. I have not staked my claim there … yet. But am reading, searching. contemplating… hoping. In other words, in the process of re-examination. Which may end in, “I have no clue, but I know God is more compassionate than me. WAY more than me. and I trust His goodness, love and care to triumph over our human flaws, rebellions, failures and ignorance.”
Thanks for putting the Pink Elephant as a centerpiece on the discussion atable.
Posted by rex on August 23, 2009 at 10:49 am
I just beleive in a God that gives each human a chance, he created us from the womb, why is Easu not treated like Jacob. Why are the Israelites (Gods chosen people) Some people prefer to disobey Eve with the fruit, The Pharoh and the Israelites. God knows this that is what free will is and the man
with all the answers doesn’t realize that we send ourselves to hell. God has a plan for each but, it
they don’t want it he does not force it. Live for self or for God. Gods way is better and less trouble.
If all are going to heaven then what is the use. Is it a big spiritual game. No I beleive God is in
control and hell is there for a reason.
Posted by Craig Thompson on August 23, 2009 at 11:20 am
God is in the business of keeping us out of Hell . . . that’s why he sent His Son to redeem us. He doesn’t send any of us there, we send ourselves. Maranatha
Posted by Andrew on August 23, 2009 at 11:24 am
“If all are going to heaven then what is the use.”
The fact that everyone being blessed, everyone being accepted, everyone being given life presents a problem for some Christians (that they can’t even picture the use of it) shows how far off the path we are.
Posted by matthew on August 23, 2009 at 12:27 pm
If I were going to heaven for sure after death regardless of what I’d done here on earth during my life, I’d be living very differently.
Why would such a god make things like conscience and laws if he was just going to let us all in anyways?
Posted by John Shore on August 23, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Matthew: Are you saying that the only thing that keeps you behaving morally is the fear of how God will punish you if you don’t? That without that fear, you’d just be a dick?
I don’t think the question is, “Why would such a god make things like conscience and laws if he was just going to let us all in anyways?” I think the question atheists and their ilk have is, “Why do you have to be a CHRISTIAN to have a rewarding afterlife? You can follow your conscience—that is, lead a wonderfully noble and charitable life–and obey all the laws, and have no religion whatsoever.”
Posted by Andy Christensen on August 23, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Back up to where Dan says God could decide at the last minute to let me into heaven. And Bob says, yes, God can do anything. But the bible teaches that God is righteous. He is impartial. He cannot just give someone a free pass because, while it would be consistent with being loving, and be consistent with being all-powerful, it would be inconsistent with His nature, which is righteous and just. God is loving, all-powerful, and morally perfect. That last characteristic imposes certain limits on what God will do.
Great point by John that there are atheists who are all for morality. But the Word teaches that without the Holy Spirit we really cannot be righteous; we cannot love God and love people as we need to without the Spirit. We might do some good things but our sinful nature will always eventually undo it. And we cannot receive the Spirit without being cleansed of sin and reconciled to God. And that is what Jesus was sent for. God does forgive, but it is done His way, on His terms. Jesus is the Way that God made so that we could be forgiven even though we don’t deserve it, so that God’s wrath could come upon sin without destroying the sinner, so that unrighteous humans could be made righteous without God violating His own righteousness.
Posted by John Shore on August 23, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Becky: So you’re finding that more and more Christians simply reject the reality of hell? Or that God can and does let all kinds of people into hell who never thought of themselves as Christian at all? Either way, that is interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by Don Gollahon on August 23, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I see it more like this: Sin is ultimately me saying my will is better than God’s will. It is a mere mortal defying the infinite, all-powerful God. This results in an infinite transgression, a debt way too big for me to ever pay. God is just. He will punish sin. Such an infinite transgression demands an infinite punishment. And that He would make a way to “pay” such a debt is far beyond my comprehension. But He did. That is love. Jesus, the infinite God Himself in human form, chose to take the punishment for us. Thus the infinite payment for my sin. Why would He do such a thing can only be called love. And for me to create an infinite transgression and then to reject this offer to pay off that debt by just merely accepting Christ by faith would leave me with, well, with hell to pay. Once you leave this life you will face either the justice of God, or the love of God. This totally makes sense to me. The only part that doesn’t make sense is that God would make even ONE way to pay off that debt.
Posted by Andrew on August 23, 2009 at 4:32 pm
“Such an infinite transgression demands an infinite punishment.”
The first problem with that line of thinking is that is very hard to garner any such notion out of either the old or new testaments. So where does it come from and why is it used? I think the answer is found in Andy’s statement, “But the Word teaches that without the Holy Spirit we really cannot be righteous…
Again, the bible teaches no such thing… it refers to righteous living people all the time. I think what motivates us to speak this way is our Western competitive attitude. Therefore we make hyperbolic statements and repeat them often so that we can feel in the right. We then get to hold the trump card. At the end of the day, that is what I believe is driving this theology. As Rex stated above… in our western, capitalistic, status seeking view, it is simply not worth doing unless someone loses.
Posted by Don Gollahon on August 23, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I was just trying to respond with “logic” of how it could be looked at for “Dan”. He was looking for a logical response. God is infinite, is He not? Me putting my will against an infinite being would be worse that trying to stop a freight train with my bare hands, would it not? And that is just one sin. We have many per day. The scriptures don’t always lead us to the “logical” conclusion of things. For those of us who have faith, that is ok. But for those who have not yet come that far we need to not run from the issue but at least attempt how it might be from God’s perspective. The Bible does say God is a just God. And it does say God is Love. It also says man goes to hell if he does not accept Christ. So we need to help “Dan” take the next step in his spiritual journey by helping him over this hurdle. We witness the best we can and leave the results to God whose Holy Spirit can do what we cannot.
Posted by Diana L. Avery on August 23, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Oh, yes. This is one I have struggled with for years.
One book that I found to be very helpful in dealing with this dilemma is Thomas Talbott’s “The Inescapable Love of God.” This book (in my opinion) offers an argument in favor of Christian Universalism that is both logical and biblical. I won’t say it’s perfect (because only God is perfect) but it gave me a great deal of peace on this issue and satisfied both my mind and my heart.
Another resource that might be worth looking into: http://mondaymorningpreacher.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html . In particular, the post entitled: “Stern Mercy, Saving Justice” does seem to show how the notion of “eternal punishment” could still be compatible with “eternal love.”
Finally, a quote from Clarence Jordan, a Southern Baptist preacher:
“I just cannot stick my God into a little time-space relationship here, hindered and always working against the impending physical death….Maybe God is in hot pursuit of us; we’ve been thinking of giving our heart to Christ. We’re thinking so hard on it we’re driving along and we don’t hear the whistle of a freight train. And bam…it just smashes us to pieces. And God said, ‘You know, I almost had him. That freight train beat me to him.’ What kind of God is that? A God whose purposes can be voided by a freight train? I can’t fit that in.” (Clarence Jordan, The Substance of Faith (New York: Association Press, 1972), 150. as quoted by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland in their book “If Grace is True, Why God Will Save Every Person.”
Finally, I want to thank you, John Shore, for your compassionate book “I’m OK–You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop.” This book has also helped me a great deal. My prayers are also with you and your wife as you deal with the possibility that she has cancer. May it turn out to be a false alarm.
Posted by Rob on August 23, 2009 at 8:53 pm
The primary logical impasse of the initial post is also something with which i’ve been struggling. Perhaps someone could point me to an argument which directly addresses it:
“Dan: …anyone…who would choose to punish me eternally just for having used the mind and soul he gave me to arrive at a conclusion that displeases him—cannot possible love me.”
Said another way, how can God be a loving God if God has set up a system in which people are punished for “arriving at a conclusion that displeases him” — especially when some perspectives are more conducive to arriving at a conclusion that displeases him. How is that just?
From my limited experience, this logical logjam seems to be the primary motivator towards adopting at least some form of universalism.
Posted by spencer on August 23, 2009 at 9:20 pm
In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. -John 3:3-6
My current understanding, which I hold in accordance with what I’ve quoted, is that all those who are not “born again” will not be in heaven. Don’t get hung up on the phrase “born again” – look for how it’s used in the passage. The Holy Spirit gives birth to a spirit within us – a new creation – so that we, the “new creation” will be with God forever. This is very good news, because I am sick of the “old man” that is still with me – all this sin which still so easily entangles me. I look forward to the day when all that is evil and corrupt within me is gone forever. Now, the downside of this is that those who have not been born again – who have no new spirit in them – will perish. But if the evil, old creation was all they were, it must be so – there is nothing to save.
Ok, kinda roundabout there…how are we born again is the question that remains unanswered. Since I believe it is answered in scriptures by those who truly search I will leave that one alone for now, rather than addressing it with a trite phrase that belittles it, and since i am too lazy to look up another quote.
Posted by Pamela Heatley on August 24, 2009 at 5:36 am
“He will punish sin.”
Did Jesus punish sin.
Posted by Sammy L. on August 24, 2009 at 8:20 am
The Dan character is spot on and is not unreasonable. As soon as a theistic argument makes no sense; the apologist resorts to ‘God is infinite’, or ’strange and mysterious ways’, or ‘you have to know Jesus to understand’….blah blah blah. Such retorts are not arguments or reason or even remotely valid. Those retorts are simply admissions of defeat.
Theistic beliefs cannot be rationally defended…so the believer should not even try. It would be more endearing to hear “I know it’s crazy…but it works for me.”
Also: one of the commenters above attributed conscious and moral law to God on nothing more than dogma. One should become familiar with the science of what we really know about these matters.
Posted by Rick Lannoye on August 24, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Thanks for sharing this story. “Dan” actually has some very good points. Who among us that has a shred of decency within us (presumably, if the Holy Spirit and the love of God dwell in one’s heart, there ought to be some) wouldn’t do all we could to impede someone who was trying to hurt himself. Surely, God would do the same, at least, a GOOD God would.
Now, please, let’s not resort to the typical think-stop as “Bob” does. To say that do wants to save everyone, but only to give up at some micro point in time to then, endlessly blow torch massive billions of people, simply avoids the real question–How can God be the CAUSE of suffering?
I’ve actually written an entire book on this topic–”Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There’s No Such Place As Hell,” (for anyone interested, you can get a free Ecopy of my book at my website: http://www.ricklannoye.com), but if I may, please allow me to share one of the many points I make in it–that the core message of Jesus about the true nature of God was diametrically opposed to what God would have to be like in order to put anyone in Hell.
If one is willing to look, there’s substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus himself opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: “You don’t know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!” Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.
So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!
True, there are a few statements that made their way into the gospels which place Hell on Jesus lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, most likely due to the Church filling up with Greeks who imported their belief in Hades with them when they converted.
Posted by Sammy L. on August 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Rick said
Rick,
Are you familiar with the history of where the books of the bible came from and when they were added? Virtually the entire ball of wax was put together [at least] ‘many decades’ after his death. A fair portion was added well over 100 years after Jesus’ death.
If you are arguing that the time separation between events and their documentation diminishes its credibility (as I do)…then the bible is not worth a much of anything.
Posted by Daniel on August 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm
If the “Greeks” slipped in the parts where Jesus spoke about hell, then how do you substantiate any of the NT scripture? You have to throw it all out, you can’t pick and choose which parts are “real” based on what appeals to your own reasoning… The entire bible, from beginning to end, speaks of the reality of hell, and goes to great lengths to explain how a loving and Holy God could allow people to go to such a place. They go there because they would rather go there, than to bow there knee to the King. Everyone likes the idea of going to heaven, but not everyone likes the idea of living under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven. They want “heaven”, but still want to rule their own little kingdom, and that doesn’t work. In Heaven there can only be one King, and that is Jesus. That is what makes it heaven in the first place…
But a place where there are billions of little kingdoms, where everyone tries to serve themself, and do what is right in their own eyes? That is a place of anarchy, of anguish, of suffering. That place truly is hell. And it is not the result of God conjuring up ways to torture people for eternity, but it is the result of God letting people have their own way, and the consequences of their own decision.
Posted by Pat on August 24, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@Daniel
” you can’t pick and choose which parts [of the bible] are “real” based on what appeals to your own reasoning”
Why not? If most of the bible is inspired by God but some parts of the bible were inserted due to human failures, isn’t this exactly what we should do?
Posted by Julia on August 24, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Both ‘Dan’ and Rick Lannoye are onto something.
Dan says: Whatever. It’s not love. Look: After I’m dead, God either has the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t have that power, then he’s too weak to matter. If he does have the power to send me to heaven instead of hell, and he wills me to go to hell, then he’s without compassion—or at the very least he certainly doesn’t love me. That’s your choice. By your own definition your god is either not all-powerful, or not all-loving. But he can’t be both.
Rick said: “So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!”
Yet that is EXACTLY what happens: More peope have gone to burn in hell for all eternity since the arrival of Jesus than if he never existed.
Here’s how: There is the thought that (roughly) says that one may still make it into heaven even if they never ever heard of Jesus based on the goodness of their hearts and the generosity of Godl. (There’s more to that but that’s about the gist of it.)
HOWever that changes the moment they are introduced to Christianity; once you hear of Jesus you now HAVE to choose to worship him. If you want any chance of going to heaven now you better well abandon any faith you previously hold right this instant and pledge your soul to Jesus. That’s it. No two ways about it. You’re either in or you’r out. Your current chosen non- Christan faith is not going to cut it. (Its fake and probably of the devil anyways). And since Jesus is The One And ONLY Way ™ you’re so much better off abandoning all the supposed knowledge, wisdoms and sacred ceremonies passed on through the centuries by your Peoples and Kin. None of it is of any worh so if you have any common sense you’re better off to dump it all and accept Jesus as your lord and savior right. this. minute.
Well, that was the plan anyways. For millions (if not billions) it didnt go that well. For all those folks who lived and died in the last 2000 years since Jesus arrived on the scene that for various reasons did NOT dump their chosen faith for Jesus it’s hell for all eternity. Whereas if they had never heard of JC they still may have made it to heaven.
IOW”s Jesus’s arrival was a death sentance for all those billions who refused to bend a knee to this new god-man from some alien religion from a foreign land.
IF the Christian God did NOT intend for all those billions to go to hell maybe he should never had Jesus’s religion pushed on them. But they had and they chose to not abandon their faith for Christianity and now they’ve paid the price with their very souls damned to hell for all eternity. Serves them right too; only fools and rebels like Dan would refuse Jesus for some other fake faith. He and the billions before him deserve the hell they get.
Thus is the compassion, love and will of the Christian God in action.
At least that is what Christianty says ….
Posted by John Shore on August 24, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Julia: As a fair, rational, and compassionate person, I’m sure you would want to acknowledge the critical difference between “That is what Christianity says,” and, “That is what some Christians believe.” Surely you’d like to avoid carelessly painting so many millions of people with such a single, broad stroke. Or perhaps you’re not aware of the vast and intricate variety of beliefs at work in the world today that all fall under the umbrella of Christianity?
Posted by Julia on August 24, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Hi John.
I usually try to say ’some’ to avoid the broad brush. My bad. Blame it on a string of crazy weeks at home and work. (a decent night’s sleep is becoming a rare and scarce commodity as of late).
There seems to be as many variations of Christianity as people claiming the title. But most can agree on one thing: Its Jesus’s way or no way. In which my observation stands for the most part.
Posted by John Shore on August 24, 2009 at 9:42 pm
This is actually one of the issues that most commonly divides Christians.
Posted by Andy Christensen on August 25, 2009 at 4:53 am
Julia,
This is not a simple issue, it is a difficult and complex one. What happens to someone who grows up as a Moslem and then is exposed, in a very poorly presented or misrepresented fashion, to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and does not immediately dump their belief system and adopt ‘Christianity’?
Jesus said He did not come to condemn the world but to save it (John 3). We are all condemned already because of the sin that is in the world. Jesus spoke of different kinds of soil, including good soil which would receive the seed of the Word and produce a crop. When I read Romans 2 where Paul talks about how the secrets of people’s hearts will be revealed at the judgement, it doesn’t sound like Jesus’ arrival made it less likely that my fictional Muslim would go to heaven. In fact, without Jesus, she would have no chance because He is the Way for her to be saved.
We are not punished for picking the wrong religion or for some miscalculation or error of reasoning. We are condemned if we persist in rebellion. It is about where our hearts are at. The Muslim girl who experienced cruelty at the hands of ‘Christians’ during the Crusades is not going to hell just because she did not drop her beliefs and adopt ‘Christianity’. The atheist who is alive at Jesus’ second coming will not go to heaven just because he sees that it is really true after all and quickly gives his mental assent to it. “This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.” (Romans 2:16)
Does a person believe in God? Are they genuinely sorry for the wrong they have done and want to leave it behind? Do they want to be right with God? If these things are true of someone, then regardless of when or how or whether they hear the Gospel, I like their prospects. Theirs is good soil. And if they hear the Gospel, clearly and accurately presented by someone who projects the love of Christ, then surely it can only be to their advantage, right? They may hear it and right then and there have a change of heart and be saved. If not then at least a seed has been planted.
If the soil is bad and a seed falls on it and does not sprout, the seed did not cause the soil to be unfruitful.
Posted by Julia on August 25, 2009 at 7:04 am
John, bless you. You tried, but gosh dern it you actually ended up spinning the same old rhetoric and proved my point: without JC you’re toast.
Even if you decided to remain non-Christian and live with a ‘good heart’ as you say, they are still lost without JC. One MUST convert at some time or another, wether in life or in death or some appointed time where you will face your JC wher you MUST convert or go to hell. Bottom line is that your salvation hinges on wether you accept JC or not. That’s it.
Let’s use your Moslim girl as an example; Or better still, maybe any Native American who had their very way of life, land and faith beaten out of them since the invasion of Christianity to this land. A Native person horribly mistreated and abused by Christians hellbent on destroying them and all they hold dear. And yet the Native Peoples refused to abandon their rich and deep faiths, finding peace and healing in their steadfast faiths, ceremonies and communinon in God, taking this love and faith in their Creator to their grave after losing everything, including their lives. (BTW, did you know that Native faiths were deemed ILLEGAL to practice in the United States until the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978?)
Yet when they die which God do they find themselves face to face with? The very same one of the invading abusers that destroyed them. NOT the God they had faith in all their lives; the Creator who for countless generations showed wisdom and love and guidance that they had dedicated their life to and had faith in to the very end, the god of their Ancestors who they refused to abandon. Imagine their surprise, their shock, thier sheer terror when they find themselves fact to face with the very same alien diety of the very same alien religion that had destroyed your Peoples, your way of life, your land, your home, your Families; alien, non-Native, bearded and white and demanding worship. This deity embodies the very epitome of the evil you witnessed first hand that erradicated everything in your world. And there you are standing in front of it.
It would be like coming face to face with the worst uber demon of your worst nightmares.
Would YOU convert? Or run screaming in the opposite direction? Would you turn your back and abandon your Ancestors, your People and your Family for this alien deity of a alien religion that had your Family killed and your People wiped off the face of the Earth?
Would you drop down and worship it? Could you?
I know I wouldnt.
But that god loves you!! you say. It wants you to find salvation in it. What? LOVE?? Salvation? Are you joking? You mean to say that this god ‘loved’ you so much that it sent its followers to destroy everything you ever had, including your family; that had everything of your race and People utterly destroyed? And now you are faced with having to worship it or go to hell? Would you abandon your Ancestors, your People, your Family for that? Really? THAT is the love and compassion of your god??
Or would you join with your Ancestors, your People and your Family who went to hell for refusing to accept this alien god and its murderous religion…?
No, John, but I am sorry. Its still the same no matter how it is spun: no JC then no salvation for you. To keep this on topic with your opening post- this is the love and compassion of your God in action: you must love and worship JC or go to hell. Good hearts are all well and find, but as you say of your Moslim girl :”In fact, without Jesus, she would have no chance because He is the Way for her to be saved.” She must convert when she comes face to face with a deity so alien and foreign to her or go to hell. That is the only choice she has.
I for one am not going to abandom my Ancestors, People and Family for some alien bearded white deity that demands I worship it or face hell. No thanks but I will be joining my Ancestors and People in hell.
No hard feelings, btw. It’s just way it is. You have your god, I have mine. As it should be.
May we find Peace, my brother. Even if it isnt in the same gods.
Mitakuye Oyasin.
Posted by John Shore on August 25, 2009 at 7:12 am
Julia: You’ve written “John,” where I believe you actually mean “Andy.” You make good points—but you’re refuting him, not me.
Posted by Julia on August 25, 2009 at 7:15 am
D’oh! I did mean Andy. Sorry.
Posted by Redlefty (Michael) on August 25, 2009 at 8:32 am
Sorry I missed this blog a couple days ago! For some reason my RSS feed isn’t picking this up anymore.
The topic is right at the core of where my soul and my brain have dug the deepest over the past few years in my journey of faith. And it led me to completely change my mind about who God is, how he sees us, where this universe is headed, and what that means for my life today.
And John’s right — the topic certainly doesn’t have a homogenous viewpoint across churches. Heck, people don’t agree while they’re sitting in the same aisle in the same church on the same Sunday.
If agreement was necessary, we’re all screwed. And if agreement on something was proof ot its truth, then the world actually was flat for thousands of years until we changed it.
Either way, agreement is hardly the principle to use a guide for what we should think about an issue. Let’s search it out for ourselves. With fear and trembling, even!
Posted by mm on August 25, 2009 at 8:35 am
I don’t know. I’m a nonbeliever, but this dialogue about eternity is turning into an analogy(for me at least) where its almost like being a bank teller and being robbed by a guy who walks up to your counter, slides over a piece of paper that says “I have a gun. Give me all the money” but just stands there, says nothing, and never produces the gun.
In Julia’s view, if your standing before god, and he says “believer or burn” i think 100% of people are going to believe. What do I lose by accepting god? Nothing. I/m dead. My mortal concisence or ego is irrelevant at this point.
What do I (possibly) gain? Not having my flesh ripped apart for the rest of eternity? Seems like an obvious choice so that can’t possibly be the litmus test used by god.
The test is more like the bank analogy to me. How much faith do you put in what you can see with your own eyes, and what faith do you put into the unknowable force confronting you? Furthermore, If your only reason for faith is to resist eternal damnation, then that can be the sort of faith god is expecting.
Heaven and Hell are fear tactics. Whether were willing to accept it or not, this a portion of the bible that was most certainly written by man, and not by god acting through man(should such a thing exist) either. There’s too many holes in it to be the work of an all omnipresent/omnipotent force.
Posted by Christian Beyer on August 25, 2009 at 9:20 am
Sorry for arriving late. Sorry if someone already said this and I missed it.
There is a third alternative to damnation and universalism that is often referred to as annihilation. John Stott is probably its most famous proponent. But it’s pretty simple. Not everyone will be ’saved’ for eternal life (whatever that really means) because God has given us free will and therefore some people, even when confronted with God, might still possibly reject Him (CS Lewis does a great job illustrating this in the “Great Divorce”). So you reject eternal life and you get what? Eternal death.
NOT eternal torment of a sort devised by God. That idea is not only un-Biblical (the Jews did not believe in Hell) but for me it even goes beyond blasphemy. Jesus never utters the word hell- it did not exist – he speaks of Gehnna for instance and the translators later insert Hell or Hades. He obviously is speaking metaphorically but if we want to be Biblical literalists then we should all assume that the damned end up in a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem. where he speaks of fire that is unquenchable. Unquenchable does not mean eternal. When a fire cannot be quenched it burns until it…burns itself out. Bad stuff indeed but not proof of a place designed by God the Father to infinitely torment his children for their finite sins. God IS just and that certainly is not justice..
The hell-loving mindset is splendidly exemplified in how Matthew 25 is often misread. I don’t know how many times I’ve had fundamentalists tell me that this parable points out Jesus’ belief in Hell when they have actually missed the REAL point of the story, which is that religion or even faith will not ’save’ you but only service to the ‘least’ of our brothers and sisters. What is also missed is how the ones Jesus applauds, the sheep. are surprised at Jesus’ approval. And the ones he condemns, the goats, were just as surprised. They thought they had it all together. When you take into account the other Gospel stories you have to figure these goats are religious people who sort of figured the sheep were heading in the wrong direction. What a surprise.
Posted by Heaven and hell? « Slow New Day on August 26, 2009 at 11:34 pm
[...] John Shore’s blog: God can love me or send me to hell, but not both. [...]
Posted by Tim on August 26, 2009 at 11:45 pm
I was walking in town yesterday and saw a store I had never seen before. It was called “Heaven and Hell Tattoos and Piercing”. This got me thinking about the subject (not tattoos and piercing, but heaven and hell). So I thought I would post in my blog on the subject this morning. As I was checking Facebook I ran across this post, and it helped prompt my thinking Thanks.
My commentary can be found at http://www.slownewday.wordpress.com. There are a couple good links there for further study.
Posted by Andy Christensen on August 27, 2009 at 2:07 am
Mitakuye,
I freely and willingly acknowledge that I believe Jesus is the Way of salvation; I wasn’t attempting to suggest otherwise.
We are not being punished because we will not worship Jesus. We were condemned already, because of our sin, our rebellion against God. This is a main theme of scripture which is important for us to understand. But we Christians don’t like talking about it, maybe because it is no fun. So we don’t. And that leads to misconceptions outside the church — for example, that God is punishing us for not worshipping Him.
For sure, there are plenty of people through the last 2000 years who have wrapped themselves in the cloak of ‘Christianity’ and have committed crimes in the name of God. Real Christians, the members of the real church, have always been a spiritual minority. Those who committed murder, genocide, theft, oppression, were not sent by God. God did not tell them to do what they did. It did not even enter God’s mind to tell them to do that.
There are going to be some surprised people at the Last Judgement. Some of the most surprised people may be the ‘Christians’ who never really repented of their sin and who committed those crimes in the name of God. Many of them may well wind up in Hell. I wouldn’t want to join them.
We don’t know what it’s going to be like — facing the God of the universe, the new order of things, etc. No matter what we envision, it is almost certainly wrong, maybe way off.
Best wishes,
Andy
Posted by Julia on August 27, 2009 at 5:09 am
Hi Andy.
I do not subscribe to the Christian concept of original sin. Never have. Of course in your god’s eyes this means I am in rebellion, which is another concept I do not subsribe to. This concept has humans born as damaged goods, not pleasing to god. Only way to repair this inborn damage is for you to admitt that you are born damaged (or damned) and worship JC for only JC can fix the damage and thus can make you good enough for god. In short you are born broken and the only cure is JC.
How convenient, dont you think?
Again, you tried, but it stil spins around that you better well worship JC or else.
BTW, ‘Mitakuye Oyasin’ is not a name; it is a prayer in Lakota: ‘All my relations.’
Peace,
~julia
Posted by John Shore on August 27, 2009 at 5:59 am
Julia: Are you Lakota?
Posted by Julia on August 27, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Hi John.
As much as I want to say yes, sadly, I cannot.
I have 3 Native lines from my Grandparents -Great Grandfather and Grandmother were fullblood. Yet there is no paper trail that I can find that I can claim as proof of Native Blood. At least not any that I can find; yet. And, also sadly, due to the stigma heeped upon Natives forced to convert to a White world, their Native heritage was lost or forced to be forgoten or face further discrimination and intimidation.
However, the Creator still found a way to lead me to my path. If one needs to label my walk- it is roughly a Lakota path I strive to walk. As with most, my path has been long and windy. (I may post a bit of it on my blog…) I cannot exclusively claim Lakota as a title or creed, yet my Heart belongs to Creator and the Chanupa the Creator led me to carry.
Each must follow the Path Creator sets them on. We each have a song to sing. Some of these are Christian, some are not. Some carry a Cross, others a Chanupa, and other yet other Ways. There are many songs that need to be sung, many voices that Creator has given each. It just not all one monotonous tone, but a chorus of millions, each singing in the Harmony Creator has led them to….
May we all find our song and sing it in Beauty and Truth, wether it be Christian or Lakota, Hindu or Muslim, Wiccan or Tibetan…
Aho! Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations),
~julia
Posted by Lion Kimbro on October 14, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Repeating Pamela:
Did he punish sin.
Posted by Christian Beyer on October 14, 2009 at 2:04 pm
More like we punish ourselves. In that ’sin’ can be defined as working against God’s will, summed up by Jesus as to love him with all and to love others. A tall order, yet when we don’t do this, when we take another path, we, and often others, suffer.