We experience two kinds of evil: human-to-human (or man-made), and God-to-human (or “natural”).
Human-to-human evil is a matter of exercised will: one person, or a group of persons, decides to visit evil upon another. The question we Christians find ourselves asking, of course, is why a benevolent God who is supposed to love and protect us ever allows that sort of evil to occur, why he doesn’t stop the hand of the evil-doer.
The reason God doesn’t stop any of us from doing whatever we’re determined to is because God gave us free will. What we do with that free will is entirely up to us. But God loves us too much to violate or eradicate the very thing that defines us—and that’s our free will.
As I said at the end of my post “Dear God: Please Make Me a Mindless Zombie, So Evil Won’t Exist, that evil exists doesn’t prove that God is not benevolent. It rather proves just how benevolent he is.
As to “natural” evil—disease and earthquakes and tsunamis and so forth. We ask ourselves why God allows those things to happen, why he visits upon us such terrible tragedies.
My answer for that is that in asking God to relieve us of the suffering caused by “natural” causes, we are neglecting to take into account what we humans might very well be able to do ourselves to mitigate or eradicate the suffering caused by such calamities. We have not, as a race, chosen to pool and channel our energies and resources toward making that discovery. We spend some of our money and energy on trying to eliminate disease and poverty, and on trying to predict and control storms and earthquakes and so on. But, percentage-wise, we don’t spend much of it at all on those sorts of concerns. Certainly not as much of it as we spend on, say, killing each other in wars.
We have no idea to what extent we can control or mitigate the effects of disease, famine, earthquakes, floods and so on. What we do know is that we’ve never come together as a race and dedicated our attention and resources to finding that out. Until we do that, I think we should be embarrassed to ask God to come do for us what we’re clearly too lazy and mean to do for ourselves.
No fair reaching up to heaven before we’ve reached out to one another.
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Tis all well and good Julia. Everyone needs a personal framework to make the world work for them and the supernatural actor is a characteristic device that the human animal typically uses to answer the unanswerable. My only concern is that too many claim liberal beliefs and ‘let go’ of so much, yet still cling to the nastier portions of standard doctrine such as homosexuality being an abomination, or women something less than equal, or that intelligent design should be taught in science class…and then inculcate our children with that.
The framework that I find the most rewarding and effective is understanding our world as inquiry and science can reveal it. I find it much more rewarding and stimulating than the ‘God did it’ explanation that too many believers default to.
Hi Mike.
You said: “Having successfully let go of all that you have (and finding it rewarding, effective and clarifying); is there still a need to hold onto the concept of a god at all?”
For myself the best explaination I can give is that I do not have so much as a ‘need’ to hold onto the conept of god as much as I’ve been aware of the Creator/Divinity/Grandfather/God since before my first breath.
I know, I know, that sounds corny and new-agey (and self-delusional to some I’m sure), but there it is. I could tell you stories of how the Divine has manifested in my life, the things I’ve experienced, the beauty and wonder I’ve felt beyond the senses and this world, but, I wont. Not now for I wouldnt know where to start!
How do you begin to explain over 50 years of living with Divinity in All Things…?
I cannot explain this awareness for there simply is not words adequate enough to express it. I cannot prove it for you would have to walk my life and you cannot. I cannot produce evidence enough to convince you for the proof is in my heart. If I could take out my heart and splay it open and point to this awareness I would. If I could have you walk my life for a time and witness all I have experienced I would. If I could pull it all out and place it on the table for all to see I would. But I cannot.
All I have are my pitifully limited words, my meager artwork and heartfelt passion.
And what is absolutely fine is that you dont have to believe a single word I said. You dont /need/ to have a concept of god to live and function in this world. Each finds their own path. Each of us are responsible for our own path and how it relates with the world and each other.
As it should be.
Peace to you, Mike.
~julia
I understand, Mike. And I have no probs with that.
Oh, and dont worry about me 'letting go of too much'. For clarity the I was never a Christian. I was never an anything really. I really dont know what box I would fit in. I nveer have and still dont really subscribe to any one faith or religion. If you absolutely /have/ to put me in a box it would be -barely- Native American (Lakota) but only just.
Besides, I dont like boxes. Makes me look fat…..
It seems, Julia, that you have let go of or dismissed all the judgmental aspects of theistic belief. You also recognize that the natural world is the natural world and that good and bad things happen in that world and that we can't credit or blame any actor for those things. You have dismissed enough of standard Christian doctrine and seen that nothing really changed in your life beyond having a new clarity of thought. These are clearly positive things and, I would suggest, you recognize that your worldview is more in line with how the world works.
Having successfully let go of all that you have (and finding it rewarding, effective and clarifying); is there still a need to hold onto the concept of a god at all? Many can tell you that nothing will change in your life when that happens (other than much additional clarity).
Struggling for an analogy; I would posit that some feel that giving up that last concept is cutting the off the branch upon which you believe you sit. But once that branch is cut and tumbles to the ground, you find yourself still sitting high and were actually sitting on another branch the whole time.
Best to you…
"Bravo Julia."
Thanks, Mike.
"I would only suggest going one eensy-weensy bit further and let go of just one more thing. ….your almost there already."
And, what would that one thing be, Mike….?
Bravo Julia,
Your 'letting go' of what you did certainly puts you on a better course. I would only suggest going one eensy-weensy bit further and let go of just one more thing. ….your almost there already.
I couldn't get a good opening paragraph for a new post, so I will just link to one of my related older blog posts for those interested in continuing the discussion. John, Leonardo and Christian: hopefully I will see you over there (at least briefly). Of course any of the rest of you are welcome there too
http://fvthinker.blogspot.com/2007/03/theory-fact…
John, I agree with your post. We have been and always will be responsible for all we do. We have within us to do both healthy and unhealthy acts. We have no one to blame for the state of the world’s insanity but ourselves. No demons, no gods, no supernatural forces beyond our control. Only our own unhealthy thoughts, decisions and actions. Blaming god for our messes then asking him to fix them is silly and immature. I tend to believe God would perfere it that we finaly pulled our collective heads out of our derrieres and grew up, to leave childish ways behind and finaly take responsiblity for our own messes.
But sadly, too many I fear will simply never do this for the simple fact that it will require a great many to LET GO.
Let go of the hatred, the pain, the desire for revenge, the pride and history that many feel they must cling to. To let go of generations of these unhealty atitudes will mean many will have to re-evaluate who and what they think they are. Remove all this means looking into the mirror of ourselves and get real and grow up.
That for many is still much too painful to do, and thus unthinkable for them.
We as a People have alot of growing and taking responsiblity to do.
Yet, is that not what any parent wants of their child? To grow into wonderful human beings? To encourage and urge them to keep going, to keep trying and to never give up? To find their own way? To stand there one day and see that our child has all grown up and now a beautiful person?
Is that not what God wants of us perhaps….?
Whenever I ask the Creator/Divine/Grandfather/God for help I always feel a warm and loving smile, a gentle soothing embrace and that small yet clear voice once again sounds in my ear; ‘You can do it. I have faith in you. Keep Going…’
“A young Lakota aksed his Grandfather why did life have to be so difficult sometimes.
This was the old man’s reply:
Grandfather says this.
In life there is sadness as well as joy.
Losing as well as winning.
Falling as well as standing.
Hunger as well as plenty.
Bad as well as good.
Grandfather does not say this to make you despair, but to teach you reality.
To teach you that life is a journey sometimes walked in light, sometimes in shadow.
Grandfather says this.
You did not ask to be born, but you are here.
You have weaknesses as well as strengths. You have both because in life you have two of everything.
Within in you is the will to win, as well as the willingness to lose.
The heart to feel compassion as well as the smallness to be arrogant.
Within you is the way to face life as well as the fear to turn away from it.
Grandfather says this.
Life can give you strength.
It can come from facing the storms of life.
From knowing lose, feeling sadness and heartache.
From falling into the depths of grief.
You must stand up in the storm, you must face the wind and the cold and the darkness.
When the storm blows hard you must stand firm. For it is not trying to knock you down, it is really trying to teach you to be strong.
Grandfather says this.
Being strong means taking one more step toward the top of the hill, no matter how weary you may be.
It means letting the tears flow through the grief.
It means to keep looking for the answer, though the darkness of despair is all around you.
It means to cling to hope for one more heartbeat, for one more sunrise.
Each step, no matter how difficult, is one more step closer to the top of the hill.
To keep hope alive for one more heartbeat at a time leads to the light of the next sunrise.
And the promise of a new day.
Grandfather says this.
The weakest step toward the top of the hill, toward the sunrise, toward hope, is stronger than the fiercest storm.
Grandfather says this:
Keep going.”
~Legend of the Warrior/Keep Going~
Joseph FireCrow & Joseph Marshall lll
John, you and I may never see eye to eye, but when all our differences are aside do we not both want the same things? To see and create a better world as the Creator God wishes one day we can realiize…?
Peace to you my brother.
~julia
You may not be aware Leo, but there are things that feel like evidence but are not. There are actual ways to separate good evidence and bad evidence. Hopefully I will see you over at my blog. I probably won't get the post up until this evening or tomorrow.
Huh Mike, totally preconceived: “What IS Evidence?…What ISN’T Evidence?” Don't need to be a wizard to know your answer to it . John is right! So sad.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
OK. Christian; the first person to start a blog post to continue this can host it. (I have to go sand my bedroom floor now) I would title mine "What IS Evidence?…What ISN'T Evidence?"
Leonardo, you can stop by and list all your evidence for the Great Flood there.
John; It would be fun if you stopped by to state your position on some of the things we discussed. Others following this thread may with to weigh in on the veracity of the Flood story.
Well John I have to say (about your advice to Christian) that I am learning.
But sometimes I see hope when Mike speaks of evidence, because there’s a lot of that. But somebody told m once that It’s usual that two people see the same thing but their religion background lead them to different conclusions, showing that the problem is in what they believe and the evidences for their believes. As an example two persons see a fossil: One says: it took millions of years to get this. The other says: This is what is expected to happened after the Flood. Then each of them have to show, honestly, evidence of what they’re saying. That’s why I see hope.
My personal confidence is that Jesus never lied, and He said: “”I am the way, the truth, and the life” and “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”
I guess I take to long getting my comments up there to be timely.
Mike, you do understand that your arguments do not really slam theistic faith, only organized religions (which also includes primitive religions, shamanism etc) and many people of faith (myself included) share most of your sentiments. As you mentioned, some of the world’s greatest tyrants were not people of faith created their own forms of religion. It could be said that when people of faith act the same way it’s not because of their faith in God, it’s because they do not have enough faith in God and are still wedded to the ‘un-godly’ ways of this world. (And I will concede that their are many, many atheists who are more ‘godly’ than many people who believe in God)
You are absolutely right. In fact it drives me nuts and I want to thank you for reminding me of the "Scotsman" analogy.
I come across this quite a bit when I have the temerity to suggest to my Christian friends that Islam is not the bloodthirsty religion that so many of us insist that it us. They will say things like; "There are so many violent passages in the Koran – their history has been so bloody -they convert by the sword " etc etc. I will point out this is not exactly true and most Muslims do not practice their faith in a violent promoting manner. The response is that these are not authentic Muslims – they have strayed from their faith.
Then when I point out that all these accusations could just as easily be made about Christianity the response is first, that we don't do these kinds of things anymore. When I point out that plenty of Christians are still doing these kinds of things the response is that " they aren't real Christians".
Now this is tough, especially when I consider myself to be a Christian. Actually, I am not too fond of using the term any more -it's so loaded up with the wrong baggage.
"If there are 2 billion Christians, there seems to be about 1 billion forms of Christianity. I have to go after common doctrine where it conflicts with evidence or makes unsupported assertions or demonizes others."
Right. The thing to understand is this: Jesus was not about doctrine or dogma. Jesus was not about religion at all. His entire ministry was trying to show people that religion is not necessary to know God and it almost always gets in the way. And so religion (Roman, Jewish, whatever) killed him for it.
Christian said: "Mike, you do understand that your arguments do not really slam theistic faith, only organized religions"
That is the only target there is. The problem is that too many professed believers fall back on the 'No True Scotsman' argumentative fallacy. For instance, someone claims to be a Christian and I counter with 'standard Christian doctrine says X, Y, and Z which is wrong.' They come back with 'that is not how I believe' or 'A REAL Christian believes it this way.'. If there are 2 billion Christians, there seems to be about 1 billion forms of Christianity. I have to go after common doctrine where it conflicts with evidence or makes unsupported assertions or demonizes others.
That's unfair John. I only contest the truth claims offered by religions and have never, ever painted with such a divisive, broad brush. Asserting that I profess "that all Christians are … ignorant, intolerant hate-mongers" is utterly ludicrous. Most of my friends are Christians. I do not target Christians (unless one specifically brings it upon themself), I target Christian [and other religious] doctrine. 99.44% of Christians are perfectly intelligent, nice people that don't take the bible literally, don't demonize others, and recognize evidence and science for what it is. I only target doctrine as I know it. If a person feels wedded to that particular aspect of doctrine and is offended, the proper response is the demonstrate its truth and value instead of labeling me as intolerant.
I will concede, though, that I sometimes use the word 'you' where I shouldn't. I have caught myself saying 'you' [proprietors of that doctrine] when it could easily be interpreted as 'you' [the individual with whom I am conversing]. I will try to be more careful in that regard.
As far as one signal…I can't fault you for thinking that. I find that religion a critically important topic for society, and that is pretty exclusively what interests me on this site. It is one of my intellectual hot-buttons. I am moderately political (economic and social pragmatist), quite involved in my community and run my own technology consulting business…but you would not often see that side of me here.
Oops. My bad. I typed "com" and not "org" when logging in. I think she's an artist. This has happened before.
There's another blog called "Sharper Iron" that is about religion only from a much, much, much more conservative perspective. He gets a whole lot more traffic than I ever got. And then there's this sheet metal plant in Texas whose owner must like Proverbs.
I bet you have the same problem getting mixed up with that 17-18th century English trumpet player, huh?
No, but your whole BLOG is gone, replaced by … something too techno-hip for me to even come close to understanding.
Congratulations on the PCUSA gig. They're lucky to have you.
A little 'blogged out' lately. And a little busy. Took a part time job as (get this!) the youth ministries director at a local PCUSA congregation. (Wait'll they find out that I'm an apostate).
Seriously though, the PCUSA' s orthodoxy is, as McLaren would say, quite generous. Which I guess is one reason why there is a PCA as well. But I do need to get back on the blogging stick. Thanks for the nudge.
Chris: DUDE! What happened to your BLOG???
OK, but I've gotta do something while waiting for these roasts to come out of the oven.
Christian: As I said, it's the sheer fact that Jefferson's quote can mean about anything that makes it worthless as "wisdom." It means nothing.
But more to the point: Good luck arguing with Mike. You'll either let him have the last (ever contentious) word, or you'll go back and forth with him until I shut this comment stream down. But Mike has one channel, and one channel only, and he won't stop broadcasting his single signal as long as anyone's facilitating that. His message is that all Christians are the same, and they're all ignorant, intolerant hate-mongers. He'll sometimes hint that he feels any other way—but that's always what he comes back to. Know it now, or learn it later. But it doesn't change.
John, I think you make a good point, generally speaking. But I believe that Jefferson was addressing religion, specifically Christianity. I don't think Jefferson, of all people, was deriding an inquiring mind, but would say that it is an inquiring mind that exposes doctrinal error. That being said, it is better to be ignorant of doctrine and dogma than hold to incorrect doctrine and dogma. This would certainly be the case for the people of Jonestown or the cult that tried to hitch a ride on the comet. But I also think that, at least personally, I would have been better off never having been a reactionary Christian. Of course I might use this experience relating to other reactionary Christians but I think the world would be better off without anyone believing in an intolerant, wrathful and vengeful God.
Well sheesh! You really lobbed that one in though. Besides…I am denomination independent in my writings. I just so happens that the topics here all relate to Christianity. Put up a post about Wicca or Scientology, or Islam, or Mormonism. Every argument I make works just the same in those venues.
I think you need to point out where I am factually incorrect where you can, though.
Peace
That's all right, Mike. You've been commenting on my blog long enough for me to know a wolf could sooner pass on a chunk of raw meat than you could let the slightest chance go to slam Christianity.
I guess you are right. I guess it makes it just like the Bible!
(Sorry. That was just too easy!)
The fact that it can be read to mean just about whatever anyone wants it to—both of our completely different reads of it are perfectly valid—means it's no more a pearl of wisdom than a blank sheet of paper is a great poem. That's really all I was saying.
John we interpret it completely differently. He merely contrasts ignorance to false knowledge. To paraphrase: He who is ignorant has neither move toward truth or away from truth. But he who has false knowledge has moved further from the truth.
It in no-way precludes inquiry to mitigate that ignorance.
I am not sure how you leaped to Nazi and USSR, but since you brought it up….
Hitler invoked Jesus frequently and the Pope cordially wrote him regularly (and did jack squat to interfere with is Final Solution by the way).
The USSR did not commit their atrocities because of lack of religion, but because they were too much like religion. Stalin portrayed himself as not quite a deity, but something more than human. It was demanded allegiance to the regime and the brutal enforcement of that allegiance. (Hitler's Germany had some of these characteristics too)
This is why I cite the Creighton University study that shows that prosperous democracies with the least religion have the fewest societal ills. It is not lack of religion, it is totalitarianism and communism that correlate with the nastiness. [ http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html ] Democratic values, person freedoms and prosperity are most closely correlated to healthy societies.
As far as the rise in crime in the 60s: We know that poverty and lack of education breeds dysfunction and crime. These were decidedly on the rise in certain sectors of society. A very uncomfortable theory (well argued by a number of economists/mathematicians/statisticians) is that crime rates started to drop like a rock 14 years after Roe v. Wade. I do not claim direct cause and effect, but there is an undeniably a correlation.
Re: theories…
Gravity is a theory. The heliocentric solar system is a theory. Atomic structure is a theory. Evolution is a theory….and they are all similarly supported by suffocating evidence no matter how frequently and loudly the religious might proclaim otherwise. …and it is only the religious that make those proclamations. If you believe that your creation story trumps the considered opinion of every biologist in the world, then there is little I can do to enlighten you.
About the first part of your post, I have to say that the evidence shows the opposite. We saw this specially in the 20th century: Nazi Germany, the ex USSR even in the statistics of violent crime after the 60's in USA.
But I am agree when you say that it can claim truth to the extent that it can demonstrate truth. But about that "It is only in the area of religion where such baseless claims of ‘Truth’ and ‘Knowledge’ are promoted and even celebrated." It is not only in that area, though people acts based on their religion background or belief background. And that's why we see people promoting and celebrating as a truth just theories.
And I am agree too that every human being knows that it is better to do good; the problem is the capacity to do it That is written in the Bible. And that is one of the reasons why Jesus came: to solve this problem.
And…., well I'm not sure now, it was the reason why this conversation started at all.
See ya.
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