Not.
Part of a comment on my post Five Things Women Don’t Know About Men was this, from a (very nice) woman with the screen name of “Wee Sandy”:
And John, I truly hope men aren’t really watching a constant mental porn show. I agree with [commenter] Feather that it is addictive and destructive to both men and women, not to mention children. I hope that was a tongue-in-cheek post! But if men really ARE that focused on lust, shouldn’t we be trying to do something to help change that? Like helping our sons to understand that it is unacceptable, and that the only way to stop focusing on one thing is to fill your mind and life with something better? Or to work yourself until you’re too exhausted to be filled with temptation? Stuff like that?
The ancient, persistent, pervasive idea that being a good Christian man means being a eunuch (a castrated male) is something that I think we need to reconsider. Men are men. Men lust. They lust constantly. They can’t help it. And I get real uncomfortable whenever I hear anyone say we should want them to help it.
Do we really want men who don’t find women—lots of women, all the time—sexually attractive? Are we sure that’s what we want? Because wanting that necessarily means wanting our men to have less of a sex drive than they do. And are we sure that’s a good thing? Because if you reduce a man’s sex drive, you automatically reduce a whole lot of stuff about him that you definitely want to think twice about losing.
You want an ambitious man? Then you want a man with a strong sex drive. You want a man who will always protect his wife and children? Then you want a man with a strong sex drive. You want a man who will lay down his life for his country? Who will explore new territory? Who will take control of a bad situation? Who will champion the cause of the weak and oppressed? Who will clear trees, kill animals, build a home, and make sure that when the dust all settles, he and his are standing? Who will roll up his sleeves and work when things get tough? Then you want a man with a real sex drive. And a man with a real sex drive could no sooner not lust after women than he could unhook his gonads and leave them at home in his sock drawer when he goes off to work every day.
No man should disrespect women. And certainly no man should lose control of his behavior. But being a man means that in the privacy of your imagination, you are going to do to think a great many lustful thoughts. That’s just a fact about being a man. That won’t change. It can’t change. It shouldn‘t change. The whole idea that somehow Christian men aren’t really supposed to be men is ridiculous, and harmful.
Healthy sex isn’t just a good thing; it is the necessary thing. It’s how our race survives. It’s what makes the whole world go round.
If God didn’t want men to be men—to do their part to help that world go around—he wouldn’t have filled them with all that testosterone. That certainly doesn’t mean that men should ever be promiscuous, or in any way ever disrespectful to women. But it does mean that men are bound by their very nature to, in the privacy of their imagination, have lust for women.
I know what Matthew 5:27-28 says. Here’s how it’s translated in “The Message”:
“You know the next commandment pretty well, too: ‘Don’t go to bed with another’s spouse.’ But don’t think you’ve preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by lust even quicker than your body. Those leering looks you think nobody notices—they also corrupt.”
I have got not problem with that. One’s heart certainly can be corrupted by lust, just like it can be by anything that’s unhealthily fixated upon. And certainly no man should ever look at a woman “leeringly,” because that’s obnoxious, invasive, and extremely disrespectful.
But the bottom line is this: Show me a man who doesn’t look lustfully at women—by which I mean who doesn’t constantly imagine himself in sexual situations with all kinds of women—and I’ll show you a man who’s … well, gay, for one.
***************************************************************************************************************************
Email: johnshore@sbcglobal.net
Follow: http://twitter.com/johnshore
Beriend: http://www.facebook.com/john.shore1
Be fan: http://www.facebook.com/pages/John-Shore/89494795412?ref=s
Visit my new blog on "The Huffington Post"
Posted by Shaw on January 29, 2010 at 12:51 am
Repression is not going to make you not have the thoughts that you have. If anything, I think that the reason that so many priests have been accused of pedophilia in the Catholic church is because they are extremely sexually repressed, and put in a position of dominance over others. You can contest this, and I’m not saying its always true, but really we are hardwired to be sexual, and trying to conquer that is like trying to flip a gyroscope. Its gonna freak out.
People who are truly.. .enlightened, Jesus-like, whatever… they have lost their need for sexuality because they experience contentedness in general, not because they have spent their life practicing repression.
So if you seek to end lust in your life through practicing spirituality and whatnot, that’s one thing. But if you try to repress it you are just going to create deeper, more embedded feelings of confusion. This relates to lust, homosexuality, whatever. Its all the same. Humans are, through nature, weird creatures, and even though we are very intelligent we often find ourselves subject to very powerful body chemistry and emotions and personal history and social expectations and stress and current situations and all kinds of things that are very powerful factors upon our psyche.
So lust might be a sin, but sins are not inherently evil. Sins are sins, a concept unto themselves, similar to stepping stones of mediocrity on the pathway towards evil but not evil unto themselves. This can be proven thusly: all men are sinners, but not all men go to hell. Sins are judgments on a decision, whereas good and evil are judgments of personal character.
Lying to yourself is a far worse thing to do, and it has far worse consequences, because it represses who you are and damages your character. If you find yourself in the situation where you are very sexual but not allowed to, you’re better off being honest with yourself and handling it than trying to ignore and repress your problems.
And anyhow, what’s wrong with sex? Why are >some< Christians so against it? it is the most important thing in our lives. The last two people on earth could be the worst sinners of them all, but through procreation they would continue the human race. Unspoken implications of incest among all species, be damned and ignored!
We need to procreate. We need to love. We need to mess up and learn. We need to explore and experience, because it is in the nature of life to be curious. Everyone is different. What works for some people doesn't work for others, and it makes it hard for us to understand each other sometimes, but people are very complex we have to be accepting of what people choose to do with their lives, if its not hurting anyone. The obvious implication is homosexuality, but I'm also speaking of promiscuity and fetish and all kinds of things. If it doesn't work for you, that's one thing. But God made all of us, by extension of our parents by extension of theirs and so on, and God made all of the factors that influence us, by extension, so I think its reasonable to say that anything any of us do is natural. Its natural monkey behavior. We're animals. We're weird. We like to do it.
Posted by John Shore on January 29, 2010 at 1:04 am
“People who are truly.. .enlightened, Jesus-like, whatever… they have lost their need for sexuality because they experience contentedness in general…” No, Shaw. The enlightened being who has risen above sex is just another nonsensical myth. No such mortal ever has or ever will exist. People like to PRETEND they’ve reached this imaginary, exalted state, but there’s no such thing.
Posted by ShyAsrai on January 29, 2010 at 3:24 am
i think the key to this entire subject is “within the privacy of one’s thoughts”.
it’s all about self-discipline and respect for others. 99% of the ills of this world are, if you break it down, the result of the lack of these qualities.
(wow! written in black & white that looks like a trite, pat observation. doesn’t make it any less true.)
Posted by Susan K. Stewart on January 29, 2010 at 6:28 am
If women were honest, we would admit we “lust” after men as well. Maybe not as much as men nor as obvious as men, but we do. I turn my head at a fine looking man at the mall. My daughter and I have been known to sit in a sidewalk cafe and watch the men go by.
I’m also not afraid to say something to my husband about a “hunk.” And, he loves to laugh at the new Jack Daniel’s commercial that shows men behaving foolishly around women. We are secure in our marriage, and in who we are.
The Taliban puts their women in burkas to repress men’s sexual urges. Has it gotten them any where in the don’t lust department? I don’t think so when many are striving for the 70 virgins in heaven.
Further, lusting is not just about sex. We can lust after our neighbor’s home, Donald Trump’s money, or a celebrity’s popularity.
I agree with ShyAsrai, it’s a matter of self-control and respect for others.
Posted by ric booth on January 29, 2010 at 10:13 am
amen, John. I like your take on this part of Jesus’ sermon. I think the church too often misconstrues the point of this sermon. I do not believe Jesus is telling us how we should behave. Rather, I believe he is revealing why ever last one of us needs him.
Posted by Diana on January 29, 2010 at 10:58 am
Thanks, John. I’m in 100% agreement with what you said. What Susan said is also true–women are just as inclined to lust as men are and also one can lust after other things besides sex. The question for the Christian is “Are you in control of your lust or is your lust in control of you?”
Posted by Redlefty on January 29, 2010 at 11:15 am
I finally explained to RedWifey a while ago why it’s important to me that, now and then, we have an especially good night in the bedroom. I’m building my mental library.
I work all day around women wearing low-cut blouses, skirts and high heels, dolled up to the nines and looking to me as a business leader. There will always be temptation in my work life. Period. No need fighting it, repressing it or pretending it’s not there.
And once my brain gets going down the sex track to Hornytown, there’s no turning back. Repression just doesn’t work for me at that point. So I “replace” my thoughts with a memory of a RedWifey visual, sensation or general romp. I go with the flow of the sexually charged imagination, only now the participant is the one to whom I’ve promised to share my body, exclusively. Then not only do I avoid dangerous situations with co-workers, but I get fueled up for some fun later at home.
Once I explained it this way, it made a lot of difference for her. Now I’m not just a horndog trying to keep things spicy to please myself. I’m a horndog trying to keep things spicy to head off the roaming desires that are built into my DNA.
Posted by John Shore on January 29, 2010 at 11:29 am
Great stuff, you guys. Thanks. (Hey! I just got asked to remove this post from Crosswalk.com! Fair enough, of course. It’s their site.)
Posted by Tim Arnold on January 29, 2010 at 11:30 am
As an unfortunate soul who has been operating with a testosterone deficit my entire life, I can attest to the truth that it certainly have so much to do with sex-drive. But I have to say that 1st hand experience, all the attributes of a man, his ambition, the ability to protect his wife, children, his ability to kill and ward off interlopers…they’ve never been a problem for me. All those qualities mentioned are tied to the power of true love. Not hormones or hard-ons.
Posted by John Shore on January 29, 2010 at 12:09 pm
(Okay, so now the LINK to this blog post has been blocked by Facebook, due to one or more complaints from Facebook users that it’s inappropriate. Gotta love my fellow Christians.)
Posted by ric booth on January 29, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Your post reminded me of Eldredge’s book, Wild at Heart, which I read many years ago. He tip-toes around the word lust but says basically the same thing you have posted here. Here’s an excerpt where he is relaying a scene involving his son, Sam.
He also has a few good quotes from CS Lewis like: We castrate the gelding and bid him be fruitful.
Posted by Sarah Q. Malone on January 29, 2010 at 2:49 pm
John–I think lust of men for women, and women for men, comes from repression of the opposite gender’s characteristics in one’s own psyche. The more men repress the female part of their psyches (femininity in themselves), the more they will lust after women. The same is true for women, but women don’t have quite the same amount of pressure to repress masculinity in themselves as men do to repress femininity. Thus men are often justly perceived as more lustful. I go by pornography shops and think how ridiculous the men are in there, lusting after the half of themselves that they spend so much energy trying to repress. The more androgynous people become, the less lustful they are. “Unless you make the male as the female and the female as the male, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven” (quote from Jesus in one of the Apocryphal Gospels).
Posted by Diana on January 29, 2010 at 3:17 pm
I’m surprised at Facebook for censoring you. That’s not cool at all. Crosswalk is a little different–I can kind of see why they might consider this topic to be “controversial.” But isn’t Facebook secular?
Posted by Lindsey on January 29, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Good post. And women may not lust after *sex* all the time, but they do lust after warmth and security and being desired and all manner of things. We are who we are and who we were meant to be. And the verses that draw an analogy between men and women and God’s desire to be united with mankind- shall we castrate those?
I think our sexuality is a deeply spiritual thing as well, and if we reject it we do so at the risk of rejecting a more full understanding of God.
Posted by John Shore on January 29, 2010 at 3:24 pm
(Peoples: Diana is referring to this, which I posted on my Facebook status a few moments ago: “Crosswalk.com asked me to remove my latest blog post there. Fair enough! They’re good to me, and invariably patient. (Oh, great: and I just learned Facebook has blocked the link to that specific post on my own blog, because Facebook users have complained that it’s “inappropriate.” Ahhh … feel the Christian love.)
Diana: A great number of my Facebook “friends” came to me via Crosswalk or my association with Stephen Arterburn. That’s about as conservative a group as exists. I assume one or more of those folks somehow flagged my post as “inappropriate.” So then FB just automatically censures it. I figure that has to be what happened.
Posted by Diana on January 29, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Thanks for the explanation, John. I still feel censorship is wrong, but I guess I understand better how it might have happened.
Posted by Mr. Holland on January 29, 2010 at 3:43 pm
I agree about the whole lust thing. As Edmund Gwynn once sang: “I love to lust, long and loud and clear. The more I lust, the ….” , uh, I forget the next part.
Anyway, I don’t think Jesus’ message in Matthew 5 had anything to do with lust at all. I think it was all about empathy and hypocrisy. Here you have a bunch of guys ready to pass judgement on some despicable sinners. Jesus is saying, “Look, before you get all high and mighty, quick to pass judgement, tell me that what they’ve done hasn’t crossed your minds on more than a few occasions. In the right circumstances, under the right conditions, that could very well be your broken body being smashed by these rocks. There but for the grace of God and all that. Judge not lest you be judged, dudes.”
You know, your buddy Steve once had me all tied up knots, back when I was a fundie. He has this anti-lust technique in “Every Man’s Battle” in which you never let your eyes rest for any more than a nano-second on any one particular female charm belong the neck. My eyes were bouncing around like ping-pongs. People said that I looked like a crazed bobble head doll. Now life is so much more…peaceful. “Thank heavens, for little girls…..” (well, not THAT little)
Posted by ShyAsrai on January 29, 2010 at 4:48 pm
anthropologically speaking, i honestly believe that if mr. caveman hadn’t been trying to convince ms. caveman to permit him easy access, her ‘price’ being windows and a door that closed, we’d still be living in caves.
unfortunately, it seems to me that today’s woman can be had so cheaply that the male, in general, has no impetus to improve the world. it’s awfully hard to stay committed to a relationship when you can practically run next door to slake one’s lust for the cost of a cold beer, if that.
Posted by John Shore on January 29, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Wow, Shy. Bitter much?
Posted by ShyAsrai on January 29, 2010 at 5:03 pm
why do you state that? YOU said in your post that without being lust-inducing testosterone-laden creatures, men wouldn’t be the helpful beings that kill the spiders and defend the castle (to paraphrase).
men do EVERYTHING they do for sex. not money. money is to get power. and no, not power. power gets sex. so… sex.
and anthropologically speaking, women weren’t going to/shouldn’t hang out with the guy who couldn’t/wouldn’t/won’t provide a bear-free cave. that wouldn’t make much evolutionary sense.
Posted by ShyAsrai on January 29, 2010 at 5:05 pm
and let’s not pretend that ‘easy access elsewhere’ promotes commitment.
Posted by Cath on January 29, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Amen! I’m a girl, and I tried to “repress” my sexual thoughts for some time (and failed), and have concluded that trying not to lust is trying to deny that I’m human. I imagine it must be even harder for men. If people never lusted the human race would probably be extinct by now.
Posted by Jerri Harrington on January 29, 2010 at 11:48 pm
This is where I have arrived so far in understanding this subject: Men and women both can struggle with lust…and lust is about disrespecting another person…not desiring him or her. It is about using that person to gratify our own personal sexual desires. Using another person is always wrong, because you cannot use a person and love them at the same time. Being faithful to our spouses in thought and action is intentionally loving him or her. Viewing pornography is violent disrespect of both the viewer and women, especially, and it is degrading to everyone involved. Since the apostle Paul compared our relationship with our spouses to Jesus’ relationship with the church, we should view our sexual relationship as precious, exclusive and sacred. That does not mean we should not desire our spouses and feel wonderful about being sexual beings. God made both men and women to experience joy in our sexual relationships. But just as our relationship with God excludes other “gods”, so our relationship with our spouses should exclude other people….even in our minds. Jesus said, “If you lust after a woman in your heart, you have already committed adultry.” No one is perfect, and I have a healthy husband and four grown sons. I am not naive or uniformed about the difference between men and women and visual temptations that are out there, especially considering that modest dress is not in style anymore. But, just as we are called to a higher purpose in life than just pleasing ourselves, we are also called to a purity of thought and action because we are striving to be like Christ. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and we aren’t supposed to grieve the Holy Spirit. We also are supposed to treasure, respect and honor our spouses. I consider lust different from recognizing beauty and feeling attraction for someone,. Jesus warned us against willful sin, not natural attraction. Lust involves imagining things we shouldn’t be imagining about someone other than our spouses. ( I also think treating our spouses as if they are in our lives only to please us can be a type of lust. ) The Bible tells us that we are to consider women who aren’t our spouses as brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers…..that implies that we do have control over where our thoughts go. I don’t think men should have to go around feeling guilty for being visually attracted to women, and I don’t think women should feel guilty for noticing men either. But our sexual thoughts and emotional nurturing need to be directed to our spouses only, if we are going to honor God with our bodies, our marriages and our lives. We can do this with the help of the Holy Spirit….because self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. I also think it is essential to protect our children, for as long as we possibly can, from viewing pornography. Since even commercials and TV can be viewed as porn, it is very hard to do that. But our children deserve to enjoy a time of childhood innocence! We have the responsibility to protect them, even if it means denying ourselves of certain entertainment and risking their anger when we have parental controls on the computer. We also should teach them healthy attitudes about themselves, their bodies and sex, at appropriate ages–and talk to them respectfully, so that alarms will go off when they are dating people who are not treating them respectfully. My 25 year old son, who is happily, thanked me for keeping parental controls on the computer until after he graduated from high school. He said friends of his had terrible struggles with porn because of early exposure to it on the internet, but because he had not had access to it at home, he was repelled by it when he saw it later. He also did not have sex until he and his wife got married, even though his brothers did not share his conviction. It takes a lot of courage and strength of conviction to remain a faithful follower of Jesus Christ in this cynical and PC world! Maybe if we resolved to embrace all of the blessings of marriage and to strive for purity in thought and faithfulness in our lives, whether married or single, we could achieve a greater spiritual intimacy with Our loving Heavenly Father, who blesses us by making us both men and women, and who sanctifies marriage. And since He designed marriage to be exclusively between a husband and wife, He will bless us with greater intimacy when we are faithful to one another.
Posted by Jerri Harrington on January 29, 2010 at 11:52 pm
I meant to write that my 25 year old son is happily married…not just happily!
Posted by Kory Cochran on January 30, 2010 at 11:30 am
John,
Doesn’t surprise me that Crosswalk.com had you take that down. The church has tried to ignore this truth and teach us to be whimps, anything but a manly-man.
Ric is right about the “Wild at Heart” book as I just yesterday finished it and starting the next one he wrote after it.
I do have to say though that I do no think that lust to the point that we watch pornography on our tv’s or computer’s is “ok”. I do not think that masturbation while fantasizing about a sexual encounter it “ok” either, and at that point it is controlling the man not man controlling, let alone God controlling the man.
Now once again, I’m a chief sinner here as I struggle with lust beyond my control a great deal and it’s something I have to seek God on earnestly so I don’t point fingers at other people rather I’m talking from experience. Since I’ve read “Wild at Heart” I’ve realized it’s God that put this craving in my heart and I’ve learned to have my lust and have it with my wife much the same way that Redlefty stated above. I think I felt so guilty about any lust I’d not be enjoying my relationship with my wife the way I should be. Now, I know it’s good that a man lusts as long as it is not perverted lust and my wife and I share a lot of lust nowadays and loving it. : )
Keep challenging us brother John, I like it!
Posted by Barry on January 30, 2010 at 4:05 pm
I wrote an article about the myth of the Good Christian Man a while back. I really wish I’d written this post and attached it to that article!
(My article is at http://www.theporpoisedivinglife.com/porpoise-diving-life.asp?pageID=478 if you’re interested. It’s also there if you’re not interested.)
Posted by Diana on January 30, 2010 at 5:55 pm
“In reality, my wife is my equal in every field of life. We have different roles and abilities, but I am certainly not better than her. How, then, can I presume to rule over her and have the last word on everything just because I was born with a penis?” Thank you, Barry! This has always been my question about the “wives submit unto your husbands” thing. That was quite a good article.
Posted by onemansbeliefs on January 31, 2010 at 1:53 pm
I believe one can appreciate the beauty that is woman, and not perform all types of sexual gymnastics with her in his head. What we think about is the precursor to what we we do if we do not control our actions. My thought is why wait to control my actions, control my thoughts and there will not be a problem with my actions…
There are other reasons I believe it is important to pay attention to what you think about. Here are a couple…
2 Corinthians 10:5 “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ”
Philippians 4:8 “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”
Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
I wish to think like God thinks and He has given me His Word to help. And, if diligent enough, I just may get closer and closer to His way of thinking
Posted by newposter on January 31, 2010 at 4:57 pm
I have two thoughts.
First, I have an appetite for fast food. If I indulged it all the time, I’d be a blimp. It would be truly destructive – no sugar-coating that. That doesn’t mean, however, that I never indulge it, or that I’m ashamed of it.
Second, I don’t think this is something you should be arguing with your significant other about. If you are one of the ladies who thinks flesh and lust is the most evil thing on the planet, find yourself a guy who averts his eyes when a breast comes on the TV/movie screen (they’re out there…probably the ones who reported this article). If you are one of the guys who agrees with John, find yourself a lady who is comfortable with that. I tend to think this is one of those things where you ought to be on the same page, whatever that page may be.
Posted by Renee Fuller on February 9, 2010 at 4:28 pm
As Christians it is our responsibility to examine our thought life as well as our actions. Take every unclean or sinful thought captive and analyze both its origin and consequence. Not just the lustful ones. Satan also tempts us; he often plants ideas in our heads to distract us from being our best in Christ.
Don’t be unaware thinking all these thoughts are yours and natural–this is not true. The more you give yourself over to this lie, the more you will be unable to distinguish your real thoughts from the temptations the devil plants in your minds.
On the other hand It is also important to recognize our nature and the way God has made us. It is no secret God made men more visual. And I for one am very glad men find women attractive and desire them–it is beautiful and natural. But be sure it is fueled by something good in the right context. If not, really examine it to make sure you are not dealing with temptation, an idol, or putting lustful sin before your walk with God and the best He has for you.
God made sex to be wonderful and it is. But it was also created to be an expression of love and bonding within the sanctity of a marriage covenant. When we misuse our bodies out of this context, we defile them-we are defiling a holy temple.
Renee Fuller
Posted by Jaime on February 11, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Romans 7:14-25 (New International Version)
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.