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{ 56 comments… read them below or add one }
Why all this discussion of heaven and hell? Why the abstract ideas that we can’t, even in the smallest sense, understand? We can say that God is holy, that is why there can’t even be a little sin in His presence, that’s why hell exists. Only the most mature Christians will accept that answer. But even they won’t have an answer.
Or…we can follow Jesus’ lead. And instead of worrying about what happens after death, accept His promises here on this planet, to bring justice to the oppressed, comfort to the brokenhearted, freedom to the captives (those stuck in their cycles of defeat/addiction)….
A lot of Christians seem have this idea that we have to put up with life on this planet, and then SOMEDAY, we’ll get to go to heaven, because we put our trust and faith in Jesus Christ.
Why not actually read the Bible and take Jesus’ words seriously? Why not accept His promises and bring heaven to earth for people? SHOW them that God is real, and God is love, and God is present. SHOW them that God is willing to change their situation.
We’re so stuck in this cycle of blind faith and fear, we don’t know if we actually believe that Jesus will change a situation, we’re unwilling to take steps *just in case God doesn’t actually show up*. The biggest problem among Christians is unbelief and doubt. And Jesus didn’t coddle that. He rebuked it. Ask His help to overcome it. And believe that He will.
Hebrews 11:6 says that anyone who wants to come to Him must believe that God exists and that He will reward those who sincerely seek Him.
Use your faith. Activate it. God WILL show up.
And people won’t NEED to be convinced that God is real. They’ll realize it when they see miracles happening. Little things that can’t be explained any other way.
Stop living out of the fear of hell (yes, i believe it exists, no, I have no idea how God’s justice will work in the end). START living out the real Christian life. Read your Bible and find the promises and claim them! Don’t just say stuff to people. Show them.
It makes living a lot more fun, too. Divine appointments bring pretty amazing results.
(No, the Christian life isn’t perfect or easy, but…it’s FULL. It’s REAL.)
I like this. I see a lot of truth in it.
Clever conversation.
I believe that God is just, balanced and fair.
1) He says don’t sin, not even once, because to do so is go to hell.
2) We sin, not only because its impossible not to, but because we like it.
3) Out of love, He provides a sacrifice to act in proxy for us for the wages of all of our sins, His Son.
4) We choose to except the proxy or go it alone.
5) Christians are those who except the proxy, the sacrifice of his son.
6) Non-christians are those who go it alone, with no proxy.
What other outcome is there?
If you want to take a lawyer with you to argue semantics with God, good luck.
Wow, as a Christian I sure had a misunderstanding of God, and his word. When Modern day Christians think of “Hell” they think of a firey unending torment. Unfortunately that is because the modern day Christian uses tradition to define what Hell is, instead of using the Bible to define what Hell is. Nowhere in the Bible is “Hell” defined as unending conscious torment in Fire.
In the Bible, there is “The Lake Of Fire”, which is different then “Hell”. In fact “Hell” is thrown into the lake of fire, which the bible calls the “Second Death”.
God called the Lake Of Fire the Second “Death,” not Life. The wages of sin is Death. The wages of sin is not unending life (in torment). The wages of sin is DEATH.
The serpent told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die. That’s Satan’s 1st lie, and we are still buying it today. We teach that when you die, you are really not dead, you are alive just somewhere else. Satan’s lies are still deceiving us. How could we be so foolish to still buy into this lie?
Also, who actually believes that anyone, ANYONE, chooses to walk into a fire and stay alive in the fire forever? If someone actually chose this, then that’s fine for them (that will never happen).
In reality if someone rebelled against God and rejected Christ, then died and found out they were wrong, this person would do everything they can to escape this unending firey torment (if it existed). So how can you say “they chose to go to hell”? They didn’t choose it, they’re trying to get away from it, even though they rejected God in life. It’s too late? You’d be right, but they would not willingly stay in a fire forever. So they are not choosing it.
No body would. Just think of how illogical that argument is…”they chose hell”. So you’re saying they are choosing to stay in firey torment?
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D72eJeryrQeI&h=e67fc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7cplP-g2v8&feature=related
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO9N3T5fZoQ (this is a long, somewhat corny production, but it is very informative — watch the demonstration at from 2:00 – 3:00)
God is not a monster. Satan paints a picture that God is a monster who will burn people forever, and we are foolish enough to believe Satan’s lies.
Dont get me wrong, the unsaved will burn up in the Lake Of Fire, and it WILL BE HORRIBLE!!!!! But they will not live for ever in unending torment.
Only those whom God gives eternal life will live forever.
Hi,
I am an Atheist and find the topic of religion very interesting. I have always been an atheist and really did not come out until 2004 when there were several o-mail forwards sent to me. I work in the public school system as a teacher's aide for the special education department. The forwards were from teachers and administrators saying how America was a Christian Nation and if a person did not like it they should go back to their own country. I repleid that this was not appropriate for work and that I was offended because I do not agree that this is a Christian Nation and I am still American and proud. Other o-mails talked about how Atheist were only 15% of the population and they should just sit down and shut up. I just responded that I am an Atheist and I will not sit down and shut up. And so I became more outspoken about my Atheism and peoples rights.
The topic of hell is one that bothers me.. I grew up in a home were religion was really never talked about. and was a far cry away from normal. There was alot of drugs and alcohol in the house most of the time and I was pretty much unsupervised. My father shot himself my Junior year in high school and I alone had to clean up after it. My mother later killed her self four years later. When I was 7 a guy broke in while we were home and raped her and thretened to kill me and my sister and she never got over it.
The background information was not to wine but to set up how I view things. I ended up doing the opposite of my parents because I did not like what I saw growing up and wanted something better.
Now when I responded to the o-mail forwards people could not believe I was an Atheist. Many said that I was a christian but just did not know it yet because of the life I lead. They assume that Atheist have no morals and can not have good family lives. Then the others were mostly talking about how eturnity is long and hot.
Now this is my problem. I do not believe in Heaven or Hell but when someone says I am going to Hell it hurts. Now some would wounder why it hurts if I do not believe in it. It is the fact that these people think I deserve to be tourtured and suffer for all of eturnity. If they think their God is a just God and that he is always right then they have to agree that my punishment is the correct one.
My wife and I have friends and coworkers that think I am goint to hell and I am not sure if I want toshare my Earthly life with them if they think I deserve to be punished forever. Should their belief not
be a factor if we are friends.
I have tried so hard to do the right things in my life and be a good person but to these people it does not matter. The only thing I have to do is believe in Jesus. The guy who raped my mother could get into Heaven if he finds Jesus. It seems to me that it is not morals or the good you do in life that gets a person into heaven but one thing belief and if I can not find that belief I am punished. I have read all kinds of religious books, spoken to many diffrent Christian people, and I still have no belief in Jesus or God. I understand why people like it but I just do not have it in me.
I speak to the mormans and they say they have the answer but everyone else has it wrong. I speak to the Jahova Witness and they say they ahve the answer but everyone else has it wrong. I speak to the Catholic and they say they have the answer and everyone else has it wrong. And I could go on and on just filling in one religious belief system for another. They all think the other is wrong and is going to hell or just not going to Heaven. How do you choose from all these right answers? How do you choose just one. I cant.
I see religions denying what science proves to us. Denying the Natural world because they have a book that is the word of God and can not be wrong, must not be wrong.
I just try to do my best and be a good person.
Thank you for reading my post. I am interested in hearing some responses from those who believe in a God or Gods.
Don
I can highly recommend the book “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott in regards to these issues. It might not convince you to believe in God, but it does offer both biblical insight and logical insight in relation to the issues you have raised above.
I’m proud of you for standing up to those who would oppress 15% of the population (more than that actually, since not all theists/religious people are Christians) for the sake of their own religious beliefs.
Sounds like you grew up under hellish enough circumstances without being sent back there again–especially for something as silly as believing the “wrong” thing.
You remind me of a brother-in-law of mine. He didn’t believe in God either. He wanted to, but he just didn’t have it in him either. But he was a wonderful human being who, in my opinion, modeled God’s love a lot better than most “Christians” do. It is my belief that he is with God now, not burning in the fires of Hell.
People are saved (in my opinion) not by the good deeds they do and not by having the “right” beliefs, but by the Love of God as expressed in the life and death of Jesus, the savior, the son of God. I could be wrong about this, of course.
what is hard to accept about the all knowingness of GOD is that ultimately, GOD considers the resignation of billions of people to an eternity of suffering a sufferable loss to meet his final ends, whatever those ends may be. i wish i could understand this, but I dont
You don’t understand it because it doesn’t make sense.
Ellen,
How do you know, if it's true that we repeat life over, that Mother Theresa didn't come back as well?
I do believe in hell and this life here on earth is that hell. I believe I will die, review my life and have to come back and keep doing it over and over again until I end up like Mother Theresa and not have to do this anymore.
We are all in hell right now
Wow. That's pretty intense.
Just a thought: Why do people assume that the fires of hell are real instead of metaphorical? Why can't we just see hell as a place where one has chosen oneself over God, and is therefore a cold, tiny, empty, lonely place completely outside of God? If a person does NOT choose God, he has chosen himself; there's no middle option.
in criminal law ther is a punishment if we brake the law and are found guilty we may plead with the judge our good works how we helped him clean his car and did jobs for him in his house without charging etc. or we may plead his goodness or kindness but judge you are a kind man etc maybe or may not be true. but wether it is true or not the fact remains tha we have been found guilty and sentance must be passed punishment must be given a good judge will not let rapists and murders go free . even so we all have snned and broken gods holy law of love the bible tells us that6 if we hate our fellow man we are murderer s because god sees what is in the heart jesus said if you look at awoman to lust after her you have commited adultery already with her in your heart pride selfishness greed we have all multiplode times done wrong and broken gods law there is a punshment for that god has made away out for us through jesus suffering our punishment but if reject that then saparation from god and confinement in hell forever is our just punisment
barrie, I think you missed a period or two there….
Hi barrie, you (quote Christian-Theology correctly when you) say that
'"od has made a way out for us through jesus suffering OUR punishment, but if we reject that, then separation from god and confinement in hell FOREVER is our just. punishment."
So if OUR punishment is 'just', in that we are confined to hell FOREVER, but that jesus sufferes OUR punishment vicariously, (ie; in our place) then how-come Jesus isn't confined to hell FOREVER (as was our due) , thereby TRULY serving OUR 'just' sentence?
If you had been sentenced to say a good flogging and a 50yr term of imprisonment for 'lustfully looking at a woman'', (a 'just' and may I say, rather 'lenient' punishment if ever I saw one) and I offered to 'take you place', take your punishment by getting flogged and spending a mere THREE DAYS in jail, would 'justice have been served ?
The whole concept of choice is that you have to choose to make one. If God were to prove his existence to me, then I have a choice. If he doesn’t, and I go about my life, using the intellect He gave me to question and scoff at the very unlikely Truth, whose fault is it I don’t believe? GOD. I have no choice. If i’m expected to just “know” than forget it, I surrender to the powers at be, because I might as well convert to Islam, which offers pretty much the same deal! I claim to know nothing. Religion says “I know everything”. I say you know nothing, not because you chose to know nothing, just because you are a lowly human and the universe has no reason to reveal itself to any living creature. It is all powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. That’s why it stays out of the way.
Wow–this sure sparked a lot of thoughtful feedback. I'm kind of just hovering around the sideline wondering about your position.
Uncaged Cardinal,
That is what we call "Cherry picking" the Bible. You copy and paste all the verses that "can be twisted" to imply universalim. Do you think God is going to contradict himself. Jesus talks more about hell than heaven. Who cares if "he gets a good night sleep" if he ends up in eternity apart from God.
Perhaps it's time to Cage the Cardinal…
hi andy,
Yes, I did ‘cherry-pick’ the verses above to point towards universalism.
That was my point ….. depending on which verses we choose to ‘cherry-pick’, we can get the bible to support almost any view, any wish for god’s wrath (usually on others) or hope of heaven (usually for ourselves) that we wish for. I’ve encountered many so-called ‘Christians’ who do this on a regular basis.
If churches didn’t ‘cherry-pick’ then there would be no need for so many different denominations within Christianity.
I wonder though …. was Paul lying when he said that ‘Love keeps no record of wrongs’
As for your ‘re-caging the cardinal’, joke ….. nope, no thanks, there’s no chance that anyone would drag me back to being imprisoned within the chains of religion ever again.
Cheers
I wish some of these comments would go up at the Huffington link!
I really enjoyed reading the conversation between 'Chris' and 'Stan'. (Thanks John)
'Chris' resorts to the usual 'reheared' answers that we often hear from 'Christians' when put under pressure for a 'logical' answer.
I understand 'Stan's dilemma.
For 'Chris' seemingly tries to 'justify' an 'all-powerful' and LOVING 'Father' who 'allows' his 'child' tthe 'free-will' to walk into a fire and get burned.
A difficult idea to contend with, without doubt. And a worrying idea too.
So, I decided to seek out some bible verses that might bring 'Stan' (with his hope for Universal-Salvation) some relief.
1 Timothy 2:4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
Who desires that ALL men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth.
Luke 1:v37 With God, (Who desires that ALL men be saved) NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.
Isaiah 25v8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off ALL the Earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL things shall be subdued by Him (Jesus), then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him (God) that put ALL things under Him, that God may be ALL in ALL.
Rev. 1v7 Behold ! He is coming through the 'clouds', and EVERY eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and ALL the tribes (people) of the Earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Acts 17:27 God did this so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach-out for Him and find Him, though He is NOT FAR FROM EACH ONE OF US.
Luke 17v20-21 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He (Jesus) answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will you say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'Look, there it is!' For behold, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.
Jn 12:31,32 – (and Jesus said) Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw ALL people to myself
1John 4v8 He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is LOVE
1 Corinthians 13v4
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not arrogant, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the Truth. Love ALWAYS PROTECTS, always trusts, always hopes, ALWAYS PRESERVES.
Perhaps, if 'Stan' were to read these verses, he might get a decent nights sleep, although I guess that if 'Chris' were to read this he might become filled with 'righteuous-indignation', and so, stay up burning the midnight oil.
There are too many Stans in the world hearing the wrong message. Instead of the good news in knowing God's unconditional love, we get sold the 'fires of Hell' insurance policy.
I hold to a simple (some would say blasphemous) theology that believes ALL will reconciled to God through Christ. Not sure how all will be reconciled; in terms of details, but that in the end every knee will bow and tongue confess. Reconciling is a process, just like our own conversion is a process. I suppose this makes me a universalist Christian, which seems like an oxymoron. Seriously, I believe in judgement, and I believe in purification, but I also believe in reconciliation, that's just been my experience in how God works.
I sure hope you are right, Colleen.
Do you hope I am right because if I am wrong I will be eternally punished?
I have had that reaction from people before so I’m wondering if that is
what you meant.
But it begs the question: Does having the wrong belief about hell send you
to hell? and if so, then why just THAT point of theology, wouldn’t every wrong
belief about theology send you to hell? It seems that this process of
thinking that Christians need to have accurate theology would negate the faith
relationship with Christ. All one would need to do is attend a well respected
seminary and retain all the information about theology that they need to know.
But which seminary would that be? Since so many denominations digress on
so many points of theology, how could one possibly know what is correct theology?
Jesus invited people to come to Him like little children….do children grasp
the complexities of God, sin, etc.?
If I am wrong, then God will correct me, but I don’t believe He will eternally damn me or my neighbor who believes a whole host of other things about God. I realize that hell is a great idea for the Hitlers of the world, but I don’t usually hear people talking about a Hitler character when they worry about their friends or family going to hell. I don’t know what God’s plan is/was
for Hitler, or for any of us, I only know that God’s is just and His love is unconditional, I rest easy in that alone.
Of course if you have a wrong theology of hell (that not all those outside of Christ are going there), then you yourself are going there.
If you believe in ANY OTHER WAY TO HEAVEN BUT CHRIST, you are denying that his sacrifice meant anything. (And the word of God that declares over and over again that it is only through the cross)
If there is no hell, there is no need for a saviour!
Liberal (universal) folks love to harp on about God's love and forget about all the other attributes about God (which He will not deny Himself) such as jealousy, wrath and justice! Without the bad news (of all of us deserving hell), there is no good news. Instead, you have what is so popular in North America today-"Cheap grace"!
"Could my tears forever flow?
Could my zeal no languor know?
These for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.
In my hand no price I bring;"
Simply to thy cross I cling.
Andy said: "If there is no hell, there is no need for a saviour!"
Precisely.
You nailed it, Andy; you've stumbled upon the single most critical component of Christianity and Christ:
HELL.
The sad truth of the matter is that the single most important concept of Christianity is not Christ. Tthe single most important concept of Christianity is Hell.
You need Hell to make Christianity work. You see, they are a team: Christ and Hell. Christ NEEDS Hell. Without Hell Christ is out of a job and Christianity is just another new agey feel good bunch of fluff.
No, Hell is critical to the function of Christianity and to Christ. They need each other, they are dependant on each other. Without Hell the whole concept of Christiany falls apart.
Without Hell would mean that God actually loves and heals everyone and all would be in heaven. The fornicators, the rapists, the murderers, ALL of them will be forgiven, be healed and be in heaven with God. WIthout Hell God will have no need to send down Christ.
Without Hell there is no need to believe that God hates certian kinds of people. Hate also needs Hell. WIthout Hell there is no reason to dispise and hate the enemies of God and 'sin.' For you see not only does Christianity need Hell but the Christian MUST believe in Hell to make Christianity work. They NEED to believe some are deserving of Hell and thus hated by God. They must believe God has enemies and must send them to Hell. The Christian must believe that some people will never be forgiven or healed and therefore must belong in Hell.
Also, if there is no Hell then there is no Satan. Satan is part of Hell, is part of Christianity, is the partner to Christ. Satan and Christ need each other. You cannot have a hero to love without a bad guy to hate. Hell (and Satan) is the mantra of Christianity, not Christ. Christ needs Hell. Christianity needs Hell. The Christian needs Hell for God needs enemies. Christianity needs enemies.
Dont believe me? Then try to make Christ and Christianity work with absolutely no concept of Hell or Satan. No, it wont work. Hell and Satan MUST exisit or it all falls apart.
Yes, you are correct: If there is no need Hell, there is no need for a saviour. Hell is the mantra of Christianity, not just 'Jesus saves.' It's all quite simple: Christ needs Hell. Christianity needs Hell. The Christian needs Hell.
You need them both. You MUST have them both. Hell is needed as much as is Christ. THey one cannot exist without the other.
So yes, there MUST be a Hell. Hell is the key to Christianity, not Christ. Hell and Christ are a team, forever bound by the need for on another.
Without Hell there is no Christianty, there is no Christ.
That's just the way God wants it.
Which also meas that those who believe in hell are confined by it.
If you dont believe so then remove the whole concept of Hell and Satan completely from Christianity and see how it works.
I'm sure that would make for one interesting conversation.
Shall we try it and see?
Peace to all,
~julia~
"Peace to all", ha!ha!
I see you picked a very appropriate blog name for yourself: "ramblings of a spiritual idiot". I couldn't say it any better myself. (Except it should say "of a spiritual dead idiot" as you're obviously not born again.)
You think you are so "wise", as if you know better than God and what He has declared. A true modern Jezebel.
"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" (Job 40:8)
You know nothing of peace. "There is no peace for the wicked."
Wise? Nah.
Just making the obvious observation that you Christians sure need to believe in hell to make it all work.
Or is Andy wrong when he said: "If there is no hell, there is no need for a saviour!"…?
'those who believe in hell are confined by it'.
I like that one Julia. I also know it is true only too well.
When I got 'saved', I 'knew' that I was destined for Heaven. But …………… (once the selfish euphoria wore off) it also began to dawn on me that my grandparents, my parents, many of my other relatives and friends were NOT 'believers' and therefore destined to 'hell'. There then began a frantic effort on my part to lead my relatives and friends towards the 'Saviour'. To no avail. So in the end, because I Love my parents, relatives and friends, (yes, I know that bit of the bible which says that I'm 'supposed' to love god 'more' than friends/relatives) I decided to call the Christian god's bluff, and so prayed to it, that I could be with my relatives and friends when I die. At least I might be able to comfort them in their agony.
Yep, I'm now going to hell …..
and my 'sin' ? I Love people.
Duh
A thought for you Julie. Christianity offers more than just the negative of avoiding hell; if we are indeed individually crafted by a loving God, then having an restored relationship with Him would have to be the most fulfilling thing imaginable.
While some believers' faith exists only for the afterlife, one wonders if they are missing the richness of who God is.
Just how skinny can these replies get…?
Anyhoo. Dave, I dont believe in having a 'restored relationship' with God for I never lost it in the first place. God has been with me since before my first breath. No need to 'restore' something that wasnt broke in the first place.
Yep Julia, you cannot 're-store' a relationship that was never 'lost' in the first place.
Before I joined churchianity, I already had my own God. The God within. Then I joined the 'churchianity-club', got 'born-again', 'baptised', 'spoke in tongues' and so adopted their 'god'. But ….the closer I looked at the churchianity-god, the more jealously-obnoxious it began to appear. And so, in desparation,, I decided to do as Jesus asks us and look for God within. ('do not look for heaven in the sky, or in the sea, or in this building or over that horizon. No, look instead, for the heaven which is within you. For where your heart dwells, there your Treasure dwells also).
And so, strangely, paradoxically, I learned to realise that the real God had been with me all along, and that I had never really 'lost' my relationship with God in the first place,
(although I did come close to 'losing-it' when I got embroiled in churchianity'.
I really think that hell is not something that should be discussed with non Christians. It is a very threatening thing for them even though logically if they don't believe in God they shouldn't worry about hell. The last thing that Stan said is correct. When a Christian tells a non Christian that they are scared or worried for their soul it comes across as extremely arrogant.
I think it depends on the delivery. A person can express concern and worry over a person's eternal disposition without being arrogant. That's the whole idea behind tempering truth with love. Sensitivity…coming from a stance of maybe being all wet ourselves, goes a lot farther toward showing sincerity.
For instance, instead of saying, "God bless you, man. I fear for your soul." Had Chris said something like, "You're right. Sometimes I'm afraid because I DON'T totally understand God myself and I don't know what to say. I get defensive and act like I know it all. I really don't. But I do sincerely worry about where any of us will spend eternity. And because I care about you, Stan I just want you to have your bases covered in case."
Covering the bases gets us back to Pascal's wager, thus completing the circle from some of John's recent posts!
Tim, I like your statement about showing concern and sensitivity while being humble about our own potential to be wrong. That's something sorely missing from most churches I've attended.
As a non-Christian the concept of hell does not threaten me in the least for it does not exist.
I am however more concerned -and have been threatened on occasion- by those who believe in hell.
James 4:8 says that God draws near to those who draw near to Him. We don't get "punished" because we ignore God's phone calls. We suffer seclusion from God because we choose seclusion from God. If we do end up suffering eternal separation from God, it won't be because God "willed" it. 2 Peter 3:9—"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." Repentance is much more than an act of contrition, or saying, "sorry". It is a state of our heart that TURNS us and moves us closer to God.
Do we need notches in our Bible tallying "conversions"? Do we need to be on either side of the Calvin vs. Arminius fence? Do we need a resume of missions or works done "in His name" to prove to man how deeply we love God? I think what we DO is a matter of our own decision. However, our heart is divided. Our flesh and spirit war against each other because our temporal flesh is the mortal enemy of our eternal spirit. The way of Christ is hard. Our world, our flesh, and the invisible realm of darkness strives to dominate our attention and draw us AWAY from God. We should all know the Greatest Commandments. Even atheists do. Do Christians always do them? Is our eternal security dependent on whether or not we perform? I don't know. God sees the heart. We don't. We deem a person's heavenly value based upon their earthly deeds. I have to believe that God's estimation of us goes far beyond that. And because we are not God, we cannot fathom His judgments.
All in all, I have to believe that if God is, He is just. While our finite thoughts critique the notion of God's justice, I have to defer to the fact that I am not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. I have to TRUST. And if I trust in God with all of my heart, I will obey as naturally as my heart beats and my lungs expand and contract. Who makes those things happen?
I don't think we are SENT to hell. I think we just become so complacent about being separated from God, we not only fail to sense that we are lost, we prefer the separation over any attempt to FIND God. As a parent, I find that thought troubling.
I am thinking that the answer, if there is one this side of eternity, may lie down the road that Tim is suggesting. I don’t have the answer, but understanding what is meant by hell (rather than the typical imagery of burning one’s bones off for eternity) may lead to a more satisfying conclusion.
Doing away with hell, as some have suggested here, sounds nice to us Americans. But then again, we have never had to go through racial cleansing or a thousand other atrocities that other people have gone through. The promise of justice has a lot more meaning for them.
Random Thoughts:
Damn I hate that this is all correct.
And I hate that conversations like this take place.
Faith is hard work for some.
As a Christian, I relate more to Stan…
Stan is real.
Stan should get bigger rewards if and when he comes around (Luke 15:7).
Too bad Chris used such short little sentences…that type of stuff pissed me off.
I’m an evangelistic wimp.
…so your venti soy extra shot no whip mocha? it was good?
Hah! Great comment. Yes, my coffee was delicious. And for some reason it seemed to have improved my hearing.
Bill,
If the essence of God is that he must love himself above all things, why didn't we see that in Jesus? He put others before himself.
Great point. Jesus came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. But then, I ask, to what end? Why did he come to put others before himself? Was it because we are greater than he is and we deserve it? Obviously, no.
I found the answer in Ephesians 1 and Philippians 2. In Eph 1, Paul is repeatedly saying "for his glory and praise" and in Phil 2, Paul says that the end result is Christ's glory. Jesus himself said that his food is to do his Father's will (John 4). His primary will is to obey the Father, above all things. And his prayer in John 17 is summed up in his plea for God to bring glory to himself.
In the end, God does all things to bring glory to himself. Sounds selfish and cold – until I realize that his glory is seen in the face of a wounded and broken God, hanging on the cross.
Again, I realize this doesn't answer every possible question or objection, but that's nearly impossible in this kind of format. Not trying to dodge any issues!
Understood, thanks! For at least a couple of decades I used the exact same logic, but I’m in a different place now. I’m not at all saying that I’ve “progressed” or “grown” — for all I know this is a step backwards!
While I do agree that a purpose of the universe is to bring glory to God, I don’t think that billions of souls in hell, or apart from God, is part of the plan. “Oh death where is they sting” indeed, if it then leads to eternal torment for the majority of humankind! That’s the sting, I’d say, and it doesn’t seem like gospel.
I no longer go out to my non-Christian friends with the perception that they are doomed without conversion. I tried it for a long time and it rang hollow, because deep down I believed that God’s love indeed is great. And that the purpose of Jesus wasn’t to make it possible for a portion of us to be reconciled to God. It was to illustrate the truth that we already are reconciled, because we are His. And that, to me, is good news.
Excellent exchange, you guys.
Thanks, John. It’s good to be able to honestly dialog in a humble spirit, isn’t it?
I can appreciate where you’re coming from, and these are issues that make any thinking Christian squirm, no matter where you fall theologically. I have a hard time reconciling what you shared with what I read in Scripture, though. Jesus clearly believed some would receive eternal punishment (John 3:18, parable of the goats and sheep, narrow/wide gates etc.); Paul wrote about it, and Revelation depicts hell as a final destination for some.
Some people would say those passages were added later or corrupted, or written by people who didn’t fully understand God. But if those (very significant) passages aren’t reliable, how can I know the ones about salvation and God’s love are true? Maybe those are the ones that are corrupt!
I don’t want to give pat answers – I HATE pat answers, and I resent Christians that rely on them without thinking through the hard questions or considering other people’s perspectives. But as I see it, if you can’t trust Scripture, you can’t trust anything. There’s no trustworthy way of knowing God without having Scripture as a reliable measuring rod.
Bill: Some would say that the difference is that in the most real, deep, and incontrovertible way you can FEEL that God’s love and salvation are true, whereas you can’t, at all, feel the same way about the doctrine of hell. Some would say, “There’s your proof. Be okay with that.”
Here is a simplistic thought. 1 Cor. 13:7 Love always protects.
Our sense of earthly justice seeks to separate those who seek to tear down and destroy the good. IF they can be reconciled, GREAT. If not, sorry. NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Yes, but how do you know those feelings really, deeply, and incontrovertably reflect reality? It's tricky, eh?
After almost 40 years, I've learned that the LAST thing I should trust are my feelings. They're so easily swayed and thrown about and they often lead me into trouble and misery (bad feelings!). So my good feelings lead me to bad feelings! Woe is me, I'm getting dizzy. Jeremiah 17:9 reminds us that the heart is deceitful above all things and should not be trusted.
At the same time, I think there are plenty of people who do FEEL the reality of hell. So whose feelings are true? Sometimes these people are criticized for turning to Jesus merely as "fire insurance." It leads me to wonder why the feelings of one population are valid but the feelings of the other aren't.
Well said, dude.
Feelings are why I have faith at all. Without feelings most of my research and logic lead me to atheism, or at least a very resigned agnosticism.
And what do we tell people who are trained in madrassas, and given the "truth" about Allah and America? If they have feelings of doubt should they embrace and examine them?
I don't understand the splitting of logic from emotion. I'm not sure it's even possible, but even if it was, it's not the approach I'd want my kids to take in exploring faith.
Okay, but what about the Christian who has feelings of doubt? Can feelings of faith and feelings of doubt both be measures of objective truth?
Feelings have value – after all, they are given to us by God – but they don't determine truth.
I should be upfront about the fact that I believe objective truth is almost impossible to get a grasp on. Yet I'm ultra-scientific in many areas of my life. Go figure!
I do believe that feelings are sometimes an indicator of truth, and that both feelings of doubt and feelings of faith can be measures of it.
Watch as I carefully dance around quoting Pilate with "What is truth?". He's not exactly a person that elicits positive connotations in a Christian conversation.
I love this quote and I think it fits:
“The opposite of faith is NOT doubt, but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely. Faith includes noticing the mess, the emptiness and discomfort, and letting it be there until some light returns.” ~Anne Lamott (Plan B – Further Thoughts on Faith)
This is a great exercise, John. Here are a few thoughts. While Chris has a basic understanding of who God is and what is required for salvation, it seems that there are a few things he doesn't understand.
1) God is omnipotent, but he can't "do everything." He can't sin and he can't go against his own nature. That means that he can't ignore sin.
2) God loves us, but he doesn't love us above all things. We are created in his image and therefore have tremendous inherent value; but God is greater than we are, and he must love himself above all things, or else he has sinned (see #1). Therefore, "If he wills me to go to hell, then he’s without compassion–or at the very least he certainly doesn’t love me" is a logical fallacy. He must defend his glory and he must punish sin.
3) God DOES choose to send the unsaved to hell. Stan is correct about this. But that doesn't make him unloving, as we see from #1 and 2 above. Could God choose to save all of humanity? Yes. Why doesn't he, then? I don't know, and this is worth exploring. I suspect it is (partly) to display the greatness of his mercy.
I know this doesn't address all the great questions that your post raises, but I don't want to take up any more space than this. Just wanted to share a few thoughts.
There is no such place. If there is a HELL it's high school. I've been there, and I survived it. I've also been to Thanksgiving dinner at my inlaws' place. HELL!