Once upon a time the evangelical Christian’s typical response to homosexuality was that gay people are just messed up straight people who need to become better Christians so that God can stop them from being gay.
The complete failure of the “pray away the gay” movement, however, in conjunction with endless evidence that people are simply born gay, has succeeded in finally tossing that hoary argument onto the ash heap of history. But has that stopped evangelicals from arguing against homosexuality? Of course not. They just needed a new argument, is all.
And they found one. Today the Christian argument against gay people is typically … well, this, taken from an email recently sent me:
Would you support a serial adulterer who leaves his wife, but is just attracted to other women, because that’s who he is and how he was born? How about an alcoholic who just can’t help himself? Would you support him as he leaves his wife for alcohol? Would you support a glutton? A man of extreme pride? Why does homosexuality get a pass, and not any other sin?
A person with homosexual desires who resists temptation is exactly the same as a married man who resists temptation to carry on affairs with other women—which is to say, a human being battling the temptation to sin. The most compassionate thing that we could tell someone struggling with homosexuality (or any other sin for that matter) is to keep resisting temptation. Keep battling. Don’t give in. This is your badge as a Christian, that you fight temptation.
Now the argument is that a gay person struggling against the temptation to be who they really are is no different from anyone else struggling to resist a “sinful” temptation. Now, in other words, the refrain isn’t that gay people should stop being gay. Now it’s that they should stop acting gay.
Evangelicals are positively enamored of this new argument. If I’ve heard it once, I’ve heard it ten thousand times. We all have. You whisper “gay” into the ear of a sleeping evangelical, and there’s an excellent chance that he or she will start murmuring in their sleep, “Just like any other sinful temptation. We’re all sinners. Must resist temptation.”
And putting your brain to sleep before you say that is the very best way to say it, too. Because it’s an argument that could only make sense to a brain-dead person. It’s just too lame for words.
But lemme try to find some words anyway.
Virtually all sins share a crucial, defining, common quality. Because that quality, which is present in every other imaginable sin, is utterly absent from being or acting gay, insisting upon putting homosexuality into the same category as every other sin—or in the category of sin at all—is like gluing wings on a pig, and insisting that the result belongs in the category of “bird.” It doesn’t. It can’t. It won’t. Ever.
Here is that Big Difference between homosexuality and all those other activities generally understood to be “sinful”: There is no sin I can commit that, by virtue of my having committed it, renders me incapable of loving or being loved. I can commit murder. I can steal. I can rob. I can rape. I can drink myself to death. I can do any terrible thing at all, and no one would ever claim that intrinsic to the condition that gave rise to my doing that terrible thing is that I am, by nature, unqualified for giving or receiving love.
No one tells the chronic drinker, glutton, adulterer, gambler, or any other kind of sinner that having committed their sin—that being the way they are—means they must stop experiencing love.
Yet living without love is exactly what anti-gay Christians insist upon for gay people.
When you tell a gay person to “resist” being gay, what you are really telling them—what you really mean—is for them to be celibate. It’s okay for them to be gay; they just can’t live out their gayness.
What you mean is that you want them to condemn themselves to a life absolutely devoid of the kind of the romantic, long-term, emotionally and physically intimate love that all people, Christians included, understand not only as their birthright, but as just about the greatest part of being human.
Be alone, you’re demanding. Live alone. Don’t hold anyone’s hand. Don’t snuggle on your couch with anyone. Don’t cuddle up with anyone at night before you fall asleep. Don’t have anyone at your table to chat with over coffee in the morning.
Don’t have or raise children.
Don’t get married. Live your whole life without knowing that joy, that sharing, that fulfillment.
Be alone. Live alone. Die alone.
The “sinful temptation” that Christians are forever urging LGBT people to resist is love.
Now isn’t that funny, given that love is the one thing that Jesus was most clear about wanting his followers to extend to others? It’s just so funny it makes you want to laugh till you cry.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Falling in love with the same gender is not deliberately trying to offend God or good.
Cutest widdle flying piggy ever! <3
…….sorry.
Great article. You’ve been writing articles lately about whether gay folks can be Christians and/or go to heaven. But the preeminent question mostly raised to me (and hence a topic I’ve been waiting for you to write about) is whether gay is sin. Turns out, you had already written the article last year; and you wrote it well. This is a home-run article. Well done, sir. Well done.
For those still following these comments … *chuckle*
I was just referred to the awesome Mr. Shore by my friend Ron Goetz. I certainly didn’t read ALL of the above comments, but someone said that Jesus never said ANYTHING even HINTING at homosexuality. Well, Ron did some research … he told me even HE was skeptical about it, but he keeps finding MORE evidence:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36405396/Jesus-and-the-Six-Homosexuals
His blog continues this fascinating project, debunks the “clobber passages,” etc.:
http://biblethumpingliberal.com
Your first website — http://www.scribd.com/doc/36405396/Jesus-and-the-Six-Homosexuals — in the conclusion of the book located on that website it uses weak evidence (Luke 17:34-35) supportive of gay activities during the time of Jesus but NO SUPPORT FOR GAY ACTIVITY.
It must be made clear that although gay activity is considered to be a sin and is taught against in the bible support for gay intercourse is not. It directly state’s in the bible against homosexuality, or “sexual relations” with fellows of the same sex orientation: 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:8-10, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 — these are all definite proofs in the bible that stand against homosexuality.
A question worth looking into: What should Christians vote be, when it comes to Gay Marriage Rights? Is this further evidence for why marriage should be left out of the governmental affairs?
The greatest commandment in the bible is to Matt. 22:37-38 “37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.” regardless of any ‘so-called’ abnormalities. Disciples of Jesus are taught to “love” even those who struggle with lusting over their own sex.
Nate, if you just glance at Luke 17:34-35, it does look like weak evidence at first. When I investigated those verses, and the context of Luke 17:23-37, it more carefully I found a number of interesting things. (To read all the blog posts, click on http://biblethumpingliberal.com/gays-lesbians-in-luke/)
Notice that it is “in that night” that the “two men in one bed” and “two women grinding together” are discussed.
The first thing I realized was that the O.T. references behind “two men in one bed” were two of the verses you quoted: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Jesus referred to the exact verses that prohibited man-on-man sex.
But he didn’t take this opportunity to warn us about it.
The second verse I studied was verse 35, which refers to “two women grinding together.” I discovered that words like “mill” and “corn” are not in Luke’s version. (“Mill” is present in Matthew, but not in Luke.)
I also discovered that the word “grind” was a sexual euphemism in Old Testament Hebrew, as well as in the Greek and Latin as it was spoken in Jesus’ day. Horace uses it in Latin a couple of decades before Jesus was born, and Plutarch uses it in Greek at the same time Luke wrote his gospel.
So, in Jesus’ day as well as in the O.T., “grinding” was just as polite as talking about “making love” is today. But still, Jesus doesn’t warn us against lesbian love-making.
The third thing I examined the story about Sodom, Lot, and the fire and brimstone. These are the verses that come immediately before the ones about “two men in one bed” and “two women grinding together.” I discovered that Jesus’ comments about Sodom did not mention man-on-man sex at all.
And still–Jesus doesn’t take this opportunity to denounce homosexuality. You would think that Jesus would warn us about homosexuality, about accepting homosexuals, when he was talking about Sodom, when he talks about two men in one bed and two women grinding together at night.
IF he condemned gays and lesbians the way everybody says he did.
What we have here is Jesus using two gay and lesbian couples to illustrate a lesson on God’s judgment. Whether or not you believe in “the rapture,” what is clear is that, in this chapter, God separates those he accepts from those he does not accept. Half the gays and lesbians in Luke 17:34-35 are acceptable to God, even in the middle of their love making.
Gay and lesbian celibacy is a non-issue for God, especially when they are forbidden to marry.
Some sexually active gays and lesbians are acceptable to God, and some are not, just like it is with heterosexuals.
Nate, Jesus did mention gays and lesbians. He used two gay and lesbian couples as the main characters in his story about the end times.
Holy cognitive dissonance, Batman! That’s where I land on this issue (and it feels really prickish to call something so deep and raw an “issue” because it’s people’s lives we’re talking about here.)
I am pro-gay marriage or better yet taking marriage out of the hands of the state altogether and having civil unions for government purposes and individual religious and non-religious groups can just decide for themselves who they want to considered married. I don’t even see a good reason for limiting unions to two people — the Bible only even does that for specific situations.
Because of my Evangelical background, I expected to find myself uncomfortable with displays of affection between same-sex couples, but it turns out that they don’t bother me any more than the same displays would bother me with a straight couple (though I’m admittedly a bit of a prude). I don’t see a problem with gayness. Consenting adults and all that. My own sense of morality is rather along the lines of “An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will.” I don’t see how anybody is being hurt by two (or more) people of the same sex having a romantic/sexual/domestic, whatever relationship.
On the other hand, in terms of religion, I really am conservative — still Evangelical in that sense. Though I want to *not* see teachings against homosexuality in the Bible I can’t honestly interpret the applicable verses another way. By that I mean that if I look at those verses the way I look at any other verses in the Bible in determining what the author (and I’m coming from the perspective that the author is inspired by the holy spirit) is saying I can’t come to a different conclusion at this point.
I read these other viewpoints hoping to find something to convince me otherwise because, frankly, I don’t like the idea that God would call something that appears to be totally innate and without remedy (and I hate to use the word remedy here because if the implications of disease, but I don’t know how else to say it) bad and consign someone to a life of celibacy and loneliness for no good (to me) reason.
Yet I also know that this God of love who sacrificed his only son for our salvation has (by my standards) a serious history of assholery. I mean, he struck a guy dead for trying to steady the ark and commanded flat out genocide on more than one occasion — right down to the livestock and infants.
Cognitive dissonance, Batman. Seriously. So basically, the only conclusion I can come to right now is (kind of along the lines of CS Lewis’s) that it’s none of my damn business. I don’t know what it’s like. I can’t understand. But I do know what it means to be in a loving sexual relationship — my husband enriches my life like nothing else — the sun just seems brighter when he is around, even after almost nineteen years together. I can’t personally deny that to anyone. If God wants to that’s up to him, but I don’t want any part of that and I see no reason why I should.
I sin all the time. In thought and in deed. On accident. On purpose. I hurt people. That’s why I need Jesus. That’s why we all do. So. It pisses me off in a major way when my conservative brethren want to fuss about homosexuals but the the slum lord sitting in the front row NEVER has to feel the slightest prickle of guilt about the conditions his tenants are living in (and there are a lot more verses about that kind of thing in the Bible than there are about homosexuality beyond any doubt). Because, you know, he tithes and is on the board. And then they hold one rally against abortion and another to cut funding to Medicaid and WIC and Planned Parenthood. It makes me want to scream. Give me the gays any day. Please.
People that give gay kids a hard time should be run with my mini-van. By me. But that would be a bad example to my kids, even though my kids would jump out of the van and stomp them because they read a lot of fan fiction . . .
Okay. I’m going to stop ranting and agonizing and go to bed now.
Heather, I love how you wrestle with this. I belive the answer lies in our new position to the law. We have died to the law so we could be married to a better Spouse. I agree with you that I cannot ignore certain things. As a former semi frum Jew, it still makes me sick to see ppl eat ham in a way I imagine it makes some sick to think about gay marriage. But my personal habits and convictions are not communicable. I am free to eat ham and I am free to be a lesbian if God calls me to it.
God’s law, now, is a dark glass thru which we see Jesus. We were created to be the wife of God. The law must reflect this. He is not gay because he does not commit himself to another god, but to his goddess, the church. And the church commits herself to God. This is the image in the law. However! God’s law can only be used in that way, to show an image of Christ. It does not and cannot apply to Christians in a legal way. Each Christian must become self actualized in her own way by following the Spirit, not the letter.
In Jewish law, sex constitutes marriage. The ceremony and the papers are a social construct designed to protect the sexual, cohabitational, relationship.
Not to mention, the gentiles were only ever given the seven laws of Noah, the 613 are intended for Jews. The seven laws are those that the Jerusalem council in Acts referred to when they gave Paul instructions on what to teach the gentiles re morality (no drinking blood, they said, yet even this is permissible). It is against the law for a non Jew to be shomer shabbos for example. The ten commandments are for the Jews, not everybody. Christ did not bring gentiles into the fold to put them under a covenant they were never held to in the first place.
I should hedge this by saying that this is about God revealing Godself to humanity in temporal reality through a picture type, not God in eternal reality. So when I say God isn’t gay, I’m not saying it’s ungodly to be gay for God may very well be all of the above. I daresay we all have a lot of mind and heart opening to do to comprehend that. We are going to need new bodies just to begin to understand him and his generous liberalities, pleasures, and love. (And I call him him because he’s my husband. Come on!)
The problem with a lot of these comments is when you become a Christian that’s supposed to come first. Before your husband or wife, before your children, before your wants and desires. You can’t make Jesus try to fit into your life. You have to form your life in God’s will. It sucks. Every inclination in every one of us is to do wrong. Sin one way or another. The blogger feels that the sentance given by Christians is unfair. But if anyone really loves God/ Jesus with his whole heart the number one choice in his life should be to do God’s will. So then you have to decide what that will is.
Jesus did say a lot about love. In Greek there are three kinds of love: Agape meaning brotherly love. Eros meaning sexual love. Philia meaning friendship love. When Jesus says love your neighbour he is not talking about sexual love. A big theme in the New Testament is loving others as God first loved us. This loving others is not a sexual love. Asking someone to remain celebate is not asking them to give up agape or philia love. It is asking them to keep their body pure.
Let’s all be really careful about what is or isn’t in the Bible. It’s pretty dangerous to be adding or taking things from God’s Holy Word. You can argue yourself in circles but you will not in the whole of scripture find a passage that supports eros love between two of the same sex. I don’t presume to know why God allows some people to have those desires. Life is hard, it’s not meant to be easy, it’s actually a punishment for the fall into sin.
Let’s live first for God. If we feel he would condone the choices we’ve made, then we have our answers. I always think when I am doing something I’m not sure is right or wrong: If Jesus returned on the clouds of heaven right now would I be ok with doing/thinking/saying this? I will not answer for another at his judgement seat. I’ll have to answer for me. May we all live to HIS glory alone.
Dear Amy,
Please have the courage of your convictions and address the young man who was abused by his parents as a result of your theology. I’m really asking. This is all fine to offer in concept, but you need to come face to face with the damage you are doing as you defend/exhort what you believe despite your intentions, as good as I’m sure they are. So go actually *read* about the damage your beliefs about “adding to God’s Word” are doing to people. Have the courage to do that. You need to understand that there are a lot of us Christians out here who are tired of cleaning up your mess. Go deal with it, then come back and tell me how wrong I am.
Hello DR
I have no idea what I’m being accused of. I don’t even know you!
I read todays blog entry and have no idea what it has to do with my convictions. I never abused that person nor ridiculed him. It is not the result of the Bible’s teaching that he was abused. It was a result of sin. (Not his sin the sin of those around him who failed to treat him with love and respect.) He was treated very badly and I’m sorry for that but I don’t quite compute how it’s my fault.
Your tone is abusive. I won’t have a screaming match on the internet. Please address me with respect as one homan being to another. If you are a Christian then I would think your main goal would be that of Jesus to treat everyone with respect.
Amy
I have no idea what I’m being accused of. I don’t even know you!>>>
Amy you stepped into a conversation and you countered some thoughts, here. I’m countering you back with the same candor that you applied in your comment. That’s not “accusing” you, I’m actually holding you accountable to damage that is done to gay kids as a result of the actual theology you seem to be defending, that theology being gay = sinful if unrepentant, they go to hell. I’d suggest getting a thicker skin if you’re going to actually wade into these waters, there are people who are very, very angry with people like you who are sending this message to gay children and we’re saying so. So stop playing the victim please, this could be an opportunity for you to actually engage with someone who doesn’t have a lot of respect for this particular belief of yours and i’m saying so. Being liked isn’t your goal as a Christian, nor is being respected. Being the presence of Jesus is the goal. Let’s not focus on whether or not we like one another when children are being hurt in the name of Christ, it’s really unimportant in light of that.
I’ve volunteered a shelter for homeless kids and I can’t tell you about the number of gay children kicked out of their loving Christian homes for being gay – we’re talking 15 year old kids here, sent to the street where they are exploited. And some of these parents were truly trying to do the right thing, the “tough love” thing. And they threw away their kid, it happens in thousands of Christian homes every night. And your theology contributes to it, whether you like that or not.
I read todays blog entry and have no idea what it has to do with my convictions. I never abused that person nor ridiculed him. It is not the result of the Bible’s teaching that he was abused. >>>
You’re wrong, actually. This is going to be very difficult for you to hear and you may decide not to, which will be disappointing but not surprising if that’s your choice. You are someone who believes that homosexuality is against God’s plan seems to only want to enter into this discussion when you want to defend your point of view like you’ve done here. But where *are* you when a gay child needs you like the one who wrote that letter? He needs you – more than anyone, Amy – to say “I know I believe that being gay is wrong and against God’s plan but I’m so sorry that people used *my* theology as a way of abusing you. I’m so sorry, I will make sure that people who believe as I do don’t do this, I will start talking to my community about this and making sure this doesn’t happen to you anymore.” But you don’t. You didn’t say anything to him, not one word. And with me? You want to make sure your hands are clean, that you’re one of the nice Christians.
And I get it, Amy. I was just as defensive and wounded as you appear to be when I was on the receiving end of someone who was saying everything I am saying to you tonight. I demanded respect, I demanded that he recognize that I was not an abuser. But what I failed to see (and what most people do) and took me some time to realize is that I – when I believed like you did – was *contributing* to a *system* of belief that parents like these are using to condemn their kids. And I was doing nothing about it. Even loving Christian parents say this kind of thing.
You don’t see it because it’s really scary and hard to do the math for most people who believe that gay people are going to hell if they don’t repent. How does that work for a ten-year old that literally, cannot change how he feels about other boys? That gets messy for you and others like you to deal with.
It was a result of sin. (Not his sin the sin of those around him who failed to treat him with love and respect.) He was treated very badly and I’m sorry for that but I don’t quite compute how it’s my fault.>>>
Your tone is abusive. I won’t have a screaming match on the internet. >>>
Amy you can write me off if you want to, use my anger with you as a reason not to listen. But anger is an activating agent and you can run away from this if that’s what you choose to do. It won’t make you any less responsible. People earn respect, it’s not always given. I don’t respect your beliefs about gay men and women, I think they – and you as you live them out and act upon them – do tremendous damage to gay men and women’s beliefs that God loves them and that they get to have a relationship with Jesus. I’ve seen it firsthand a hundred times. And someone needs to be straight with you Amy – someone needs to tell you. If you listen? That’s up to you. I suspect you’ll be like a million other people and not, and i get it – it’s terrifying to realize that there are some of us fellow Christians who are angry with you. But anger is often productive. Let it be productive in your life.
DR
Dear DR,
We will not ever agree and it’s not because of our views on homosexuality.
I do not believe what is in the Bible is optional to believe. You don’t get to pick and choose and then say “See, I’m a Christian.” Being a christian is supposed to be about giving things up for the Lord. I was raised to do the right thing and not the thing I wanted. So yes I guess I’m a religious tyrant cuz I say “No sex outside of marriage, no working on Sunday, no taking the Lord’s name in vain. And no sexual relationship between two of the same sex.” But I apply these things more strongly to myself than anyone else.
But that doesn’t mean I think those who sin should be treated horribly. Then I would think I had to be to be treated horribly and this is the great difference between you and me.
You are judging me. I am not judging you. I am saying that I thinkwe should follow the Bible and if you feel you are than I would accuse you of nothing. I’m within my rights to interpret the Holy Word of God the way I think it should be. But I don’t feel ‘justified’ in treating you horribly as you do me. You just treated me as you are defending the man from yesterdays blog being treated. You are accusitory and tell me my beliefs have ruined lives in homeless shelters.
MY BELIEFS HAVE NOT HURT THOSE PEOPLE. My belief is my FAITH and it is mine alone. It can’t hurt anyone unless I use it for hurt. Someone else’s sin hurt those people. The conduct of people have hurt them who believe what I believe but I don’t carry that responsiblity. I can only control what I do and I try to treat all with love and respect. But all this isn’t because I think I’m so good and righteous.
oh no. I’m sure I have hurt people. I’m a sinner. I have to repent every day from sin and I know it. Without the the will of the Lord I would be the worst sinner on earth. But God plucked me from my sin and powerfully bent my ugly will to His Holy Will. Not one thing in my life should be what I want to do or say but everything should be to glorify God.
Life isn’t about you DR, or me, not even about those poor souls in the homeless shelter treated so badly. It’s about doing God’s will in our lives no matter how hard. Glorifying God.
All I said in my email was “if we can meet the Lord doing/thinking/believing the things we do then we have our answer.” I’m sure you feel you can. So then why are you wasting valueable time attacking a loser like me?
I pray we meet in the Kingdom of Heaven though I’m sure you think I’ll never make it there with my beliefs. I’m sure you’ve condemned me though you seem to think I’m the one condemning people. Interesting. God Bless
I won’t look for a reply simply because I don’t think I’d be serving the Lord by arguing further.
From the ThruWay Christians founding document:
You are judging me.>>>
I am judging your actions as a result of what you believe and how those actions play out in my world and the lives of the gay men and women I love and a very vulnerable population of gay children who kill themselves faster than any other population of kids.
I am not judging you.>>>
Of course you are. You’re judging the quality of peoples’ obedience towards Christ as you
MY BELIEFS HAVE NOT HURT THOSE PEOPLE.>>>
Amy keep telling yourself that, but as one who was *with* “those people” in their most vulnerable state? They are. And you need to hear it. That you aren’t going to listen? OK. That’s not my issue. What we get defensive about says far more about us than the person who challenges us.
I’m sure you feel you can. So then why are you wasting valueable time attacking a loser like me?>>>
Amy, someone has to tell you this – you have to grow up a little. I and hundreds like me have been on the front lines with these kids and I’m offering you a perspective on what your beliefs do to them – you contribute to a Christian culture who is oppressing them, marginalizing them and sending them a message that they can’t ever know Jesus and remain gay. Some kill themselves as a result, a lot of them do. No one is calling you a “loser”, by injecting this kind of thing into the conversation you give yourself an excuse for leaving it. Stop taking everything so personally and learn how to engage people who might believe – as I do – that you actually care enough about gay men and women to take some tough talk about your impact on them of which you’re probably not even aware.
I won’t look for a reply simply because I don’t think I’d be serving the Lord by arguing further.>>>
OK. But know that you chose to spend your energy defending your *self* instead of providing comfort and encouragement to a young man who was abused by parents who are clinging to the same beliefs you are about homosexuality and you didn’t show up for him. You put your interpretation of the Bible and your beliefs about gay people before loving him. I sense that your decision is what you’re running from, not this conversation.
God have mercy on you for the things you do of which you are not aware. If you’re a little bit more aware now? Good.
typo correction:
“Of course you are. You’re judging the quality of peoples’ obedience towards Christ as you *indicate we are not following the Word*.”
As a christian, our number one goal should be to love. No matter what the person has done, is doing, or will do. Jesus was the greatest example when he prayed for the people who were killing him. It is a terrible thing what people are doing to their children. Kicking a kid out to the street to figure it out for themselves is terrible. I truly don’t believe that me believing that homosexuality is a sin causes hate. I do believe that people filled with hate cause hate. I know people personally who are homosexual and call themselves christians, I do not hate them, but if asked I will provide my opinion in love. Treating someone badly because of sin is hypocritical because we all sin daily and ask forgiveness daily. I am not trying to argue, but as I read I was deeply saddened by the posts. Yes I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, and I believe that everything in the Bible is accurate, relevant, and true. The Bible requires all to die to sin, that hurts. It hurts to give up something so deeply embedded in our life. I have struggled with sexual issues in my life, and praise God for His grace that He has helped me. What I say does not matter. What does matter is the truth that we will all stand before God and give an account for our lives. We can argue with God. We can be angry at people. We can tell him about all the issues we have dealt with. The only thing that matters is that God says and what God wants. I hope and pray that everyone who desires to be a christian will fully submit to all the Word of God because in the end that is all that matters.
@Eric:
“I truly don’t believe that me believing that homosexuality is a sin causes hate.”
Eric, we Christians seem to operate under the notion that because we don’t *believe* something, it doesn’t exist. There are thousands of gay men and women – you can hear their stories on “It Gets Better” via You Tube – that would tell you your belief about homosexuality being evil does indeed cause them to commit suicide. That you *feel* no hatred toward this community is certainly true, I’m sure. That you love them, even? I’m sure that’s true. But you need to stop believing that you have the last word on the impact of your belief system when the person who is on the receiving end of it is telling you otherwise.
You get the last word on your intention, but you don’t get the last word on your impact.
(the letter I’m referring to is today’s blog entry).
I’d like to address all your comments here at once, if you don’t mind, Miss Amy.
There are actually four terms to translate “love” in the Koine Greek language, and of the three you mention, your understanding appears to be lacking.
Eros, for example, according to the Ancient Greek paradigm, isn’t necessarily sexual; its essence lies in gratification of self: for such is most pleasing, as it satisfies deep psychological needs, filling certain voids according to God’s design in a man’s or woman’s heart. Traditional theology should understand eros to be the inward-directed love distinct but inseparable from the outward-directed agape: any real communion must involve two-way communication, interaction, interrelation, binding communicants together in one relationship, with one Spirit, of one True Love. Eros motivates not only acts of sexual union, but acts of spiritual union, and knowledge not only carnal but divine as well: for such is the longing to hear the Lord say, “Well done, good and faithful servant!”
Now, brotherly love is philia, not agape. This love is indistinct in the classical Greek worldview from that of friend and neighbor.
As for agape, this is the aspect that gives love its real, eternal power. This is what drives love: it is in agape that love begets love. For its nature is directed outward: it gives of itself; it is self-sacrificing; it is victorious over self and, transcending self, over even death, by which it may even breath new life into itself whilst quenching the eros forevermore.
So as for “eros love between two of the same sex in the Bible”, need I point to David and Jonathan? David makes very clear the eros component in addition to the philia component of this love, saying (2 Samuel 1:26): “I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.”
So I definitely agree: “Let’s all be really careful about what is or isn’t in the Bible. It’s pretty dangerous to be adding or taking things from God’s Holy Word.”
That revisionist theology explains your assertion that “[b]eing a christian [sic] is supposed to be about giving things up for the Lord.”
Rather, being a Christian is supposed to be about receiving Christ into our hearts and His Holy Spirit as our own. Yes, it’s better to give (by agape, for the sake of the eternal) than to receive (by eros, for the sake of the fleeting self), but one cannot give of what one has not first received!
To accept the Spirit of the Prince of Peace is to submit one’s own will to the will of the Father, in which case one would not this distinction that you make between “the right thing” and “the thing I wanted”.
As John the Evangelist wrote, “the truth will set you free”.
Getting back to agape, you wrote, “My belief is my FAITH and it is mine alone. It can’t hurt anyone unless I use it for hurt.”
Faith is only really dwelling within you to the extent that it moves you to action. James 2:26: “[F]aith without deeds is dead.” But if that action is one of evasion—the doing of whatever else, whatever vanity, when we ought to be attending to the work of God—we will find ourselves without an ark when the floodgates open up. The lack of agape, the lack of support for your fellow man—moreover, for the son of man, the little ones, to whom belongs the Kingdom—does hurt, and is sin. Wicked it is to respect what is wicked. Tolerating intolerance is a most destructive perversion.
Now, your faith has also paved the way to more direct actions: posting comments on this blog. And your beliefs expressed therein are in fact found to be hurtful. If they were not, why would DR respond defensively? What motive could there be other than to deflect hurt, on the behalf of the poor in spirit?
I hope you read this, Amy, and I pray the Lord bless you and your house, and keep you and strengthen you in faith and understanding.
Peace in Christ.
Mr.Matthew,
I must say that I never post to blogs like this, I generally just read it and discuss it with my girlfriend of the last 4 years. I can definately say that I am one of “those” people that this entire article and comments is talking about. I am now 31 yrs old. My immediate family did not quit talking to me, though my extended family did. I was abused physically and mentally by my immediate family. I ended up a drug addict after a while and got into recovery. They told me in AA that I HAD to find a higher power that I could understand…. This was one of the hardest things I had ever dealt with and I grew up in a crackhouse with crack using parents that abused me. I was never introduced to “Jesus” or “God” until I was 15yrs old and the people in the church and the things they talked about freaked me out completely! I tried it for a little bit and nothing in my life and family changed(it actually got worse). So I gave it up and it became a fad just as the gothic clothes and everything else from my teenage yrs. Three and a half yrs ago I got sober. This is when I had my search for what I could understand. I’m a Math and Physics major in school. I rule out anything that I cant scientifically prove the existance of. Though still studying (and searching), I have only been able to move from a group of people( there is strength in numbers) to karma( what goes around comes back around, get what you put out). Tho this looks like a small move, for me it was a milestone to move away from something physical to something I cant see but see results of.
I said all of this to simply say that, as an intellectual, I have never had all of what you said make since…. not neccassarily the part of inturrpreting the bible, but the explaination of love. I thoroughly respect anyone and their beliefs, I just dont personally believe them. I live a nice quiet peaceful life with my “wife” and three kids. My “wife” and kids are all christians. I dont disclose my belief to the kids yet. They are only 7, 8, and 9. But my kids are taught to completely like someone for who they are and not for what color, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation or anything else! This is what makes the world the most beautiful planet in space! Everyone is born to find happiness. Some never get that chance, some (like myself) will not let anything or anyones opinion step in the way of finding their happiness. All people like me want is to live peacefully. I once heard a quote that said “My friends water is thicker than my families blood.” I have NO blood family now that I’m sober and want a “normal” life. I have a whole new set of family and friends. As they say in AA ” I have a new pair of glasses”. Now with that being said, I appreciate you for posting this and I hope you dont mind me sharing it. I wish more people would choose to get educated! I truely hope you have a wonderful day! You have contributing to the search (journey) that I am on…….
Sure, Jesus was single. Jesus also said nothing about homosexuality – not a thing. Not even anything that might *suggest* homosexuality. Maybe there’s a reason for that.
Wait, wasn’t Jesus single? You know, never married? Yet, he preached LOVE all the time? Hmmm….bad argument there, John. Love is a shit-ton more than cuddling and coffee in the morning.
I must be reading another blog entry – where in the world are you reading love being reduced to cuddling and coffee in the morning? If you’re going to critique something, consider putting your defenses (or whatever emotion this stirred) to the side and reading with the intent to understand the author’s point and check to make sure you’ve gotten the point. People like John seem to take an awful lot of time writing these things with careful intention, it’s such a shame that people do drive-by comments reflecting meaning back that’s based on their lens, not the content itself.
DR, you are amazing. Thanks you.
I love your glueing wings on a pig analogy and I think it perfectly describes the Christian equating of homosexual orientation and sinful temptations.
Nonetheless, I found myself feeling disturbed at these lines:
“When you tell a gay person to “resist” being gay, what you are really telling them—what you really mean—is for them to be celibate.
What you are truly and actually saying is that you want them to condemn themselves to a life devoid of love.”
The idea that a celibate life is equivalent to a life devoid of love is insulting to all singles. These statements merely reinforce our culture’s “cult of the couple” and devalues alternative ways of giving and receiving love. I do not believe that celibacy should be foisted on anyone against their will whether gay or not. All of the sexual expressions of couples you mentioned are beautiful and meaningful and should not be deprived to anyone because of his or her orientation. But, there are many reasons why someone might not ever be in a committed relationship or experience sexual intimacy (either by choice or circumstance). This does not make her less of a sexual being nor deprive him of the ability to give and receive love. In fact, some singles are able to give and receive love in unique and unconventional ways that coupled folks cannot. The most generous, affectionate and loving person I know has been single and celibate her whole life.
Just a thought.
As a heterosexual female, I can be celibate as a result of my beliefs. It can be a great life, people don’t need a partner to be fulfilled. That being said? I get the option according to the Church, I get to experience it if I choose. I even get to have hope that I’ll have it if it is a desire of my heart.
Contrast that to what the church says about gay men and women. Gay people don’t even get to hope for it like straight people do. Whatever deeper experience of love, even sex they want? They need, even? They don’t get to hope for that.
What is hard to understand about that?
I admit that you make very salient points, I admit that people are people and all people need love and acceptance. I fully admit that I believe what the Word states; that homosexual acts are an abomination before that Lord. I truly believe that Jesus would be and is (The Holy Spirit) at home in today’s society among all peoples and would not and does not exclude any. I believe He would be and is(The Holy Spirit) in the heart of things today the same as when He was on the earth. He would be and is (His Workers) out giving love and care to: homeless, alcoholics, prostitutes, HGLBT, teenage runaways, mentally impaired, and abused; anyone whom needed His help and love. I believe He allows the sun to shine, the rain to fall, and the wind to blow equally on all of us. I believe He blesses all equally or as much as we allow Him to bless us. This being said, I believe we all sin and sometimes humans have to be the judge of those sins, its called being a juror. But the sin that is associated with an alternative lifestyle is not mine to judge, I can’t speak for anyone else. When I’m bringing the Word of the Lord to someone who lives an alternative lifestyle, I show them in the Word what is said about it and then I tell then that it is between them and God; because there is but one final judge and His name Is Jesus. People have the right not to agree or accept the alternative lifestyle of other people, but, we don’t have the right to reject the person(s). I believe that what transpires sexually between people is their business (children excluded), if it is sin, then it is between them and Jesus; it should not concern any one else unless it interferes in their life, except parents of minor children who normally would show concern. People who live alternative lifestyles are people, just people. The main concern Christians should have is sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ, its up to them to decide, accept, or reject Him.
A Christian, as one to whom the Son of God has introduced the love of the Father, having recognized this in all its majesty, should have as his or her main concern that he/she love, emulating their heavenly Father thereby and faithfully following their Lord’s perfect command. Of course the Good News–the Gospel–is of Love, but that doesn’t mean its delivery is always truly of Love, and when not, Satan may take the opportunity to do damage to the Gospel of our Lord and Savior.
I think this notion of an “alternative lifestyle” will hardly prove rationally acceptable to any; conservatives find it validating an “alternative”, and liberals see it as reducing a person’s very nature to a lifestyle “choice” in defiance of the norms.
By the way, I see no particular reason in your choosing to believe that God blesses, or attempts to bless, equally each individual; I think, on both Scriptural and experiential grounds, that that may not be true.
Also, I cannot see on what basis we have the “right” not to agree or accept the “alternative lifestyle” of other people. First, rights are typically regarding what we *can* do—not what we can *not* do (Perhaps it’s a sign of our collective inclination towards laziness that we expect a right not to do something, or anything, and remain unperturbed in it). Second, we do not have the right to be wrong: we are not entitled to facts in contradiction to reality, truth apart from that of God, a state of affairs going against his will. Of course, in matters of conscience, let there be no compulsion. Yet I must then wonder what compels people to think there is anything wrong in general with how LGBT people live—why the thought occurs to them that it would be desirable to remove a speck they think they see in another’s eye due to the obstruction of their vision by a plank stuck in their own—for one thing you said is so very true: “the sin … is not mine to judge….” Choosing to recognize sins is a lifestyle choice—the one Adam and Eve made in defiance of God.
For all those who think being gay is a choice, I ask you this: When did you choose to be straight?
It is not a conscious decision that you make. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY
Thanks for great information about this article . keeping your good work
@Jessica
Are you saying that you are ‘sexually’ and ‘emotionally’ attracted to women and you have made a conscious decision to not partake in the sin? For you to say that homosexuality is a choice, would have to mean that you could only know from first hand experience, because you can’t have it both ways. Either you are gay, straight or bi… which is it?
I am not gay, because I have a sexual and emotional attraction to men.
I am not straight, because I have a sexual attraction to women, but don’t feel an emotional attraction… for some people that may be different.
I am bi, because I have an attraction to both sexes. I however have made a conscious choice to not partake in sexual pleasure with a female, because it could not lead to ‘love’ for me. It isn’t my choice to be bi, it is only my choice to partake or not.
Gay, straight or bi, is never a choice… the only choice involved is whether or not we partake in one of those relationships. Who of sound mind, would walk away from a mutual love? Who of sound mind would ask you to?
In closing I will say this…. So-called Christians, who go around screaming and quoting the Bible about all the things the Bible has to say against homosexuality, always seem to forget one major thing that is said in the Bible… ‘Marriage Is Honorable In All’. Yet these same so-called Christians, would fight until the end to deny homosexuals the same right to a life of love… all in the name of their uncomfortableness… It’s called unjust bigotry sweety and you are as guilty as the next.
Love the blog post. I’m citing it in my ethics paper on sexual morality. As a Christian who actually pays attention to real life, I love it when people point the many reasoning errors in fundamentalism.
I think it is ridiculous that being straight is about love and family, being celibate as a priest is about godliness and human kindness, but being gay is just about sex. As Sesame street would say, one of these things is not like the others.
For the sake of discussion, I’d like to offer a view of Romans 1, which I think is the only passage that poses a significant challenge to a gay-affirming theology, and here your thoughts about it. I think a strong case can be argued that sexuality of all sorts in the Greco-Roman society was tainted and corrupted in its expressions by the imperial/hierarchical values that Paul was organizing a movement to counter, and that corruption, combined with an inherited Jewish notion (perhaps originally derived from a pro-natal impulse in Jewish culture) that homosexuality was not the blessed life, stirred up so much dust that Paul simply could not see or envision the kind of loving gay relationships we see more clearly today. This was a day when a Roman pater could legally kill his spouse (that actually may have happened more frequently in earlier times but it was arguably still part of the cultural ethos), masters could rape their slaves (of either sex), etc. Paul looked at the Greco-Roman society around him, with its religious systems that justified hierarchy and oppression, and probably never encountered ANY instance of homosexual expression that was not wrapped up in this mess (e.g., temple prostitution, abused slaves, random liaisons with no commitment, etc.). Paul did not analyze homosexuality in a microscope, he had no occasion to. In cataloguing the corruption of Greco-Roman society, in passing, to pave the way in his rhetoric for a message to his fellow Judeans, he refers to homosexual passions as a curse for idolatry. Because of the “dust,” he got it wrong. And yet, ironically, that very dust got cleared in part due to the counter-cultural movement against the corrupt, hierarchical, oppressive values and social system of the Roman Empire that he helped start, enabling us today to see this matter more clearly.
Perhaps the early Pauline communities had such a Jewish “aroma” that homosexuals steered clear, preventing Paul from gaining a closer acquaintance, and allowing him to continue to paint with a broad brush in his assumptions. But what if Paul HAD become aware of loving homosexual relationships and of the fact that a whole segment of the population felt excluded from the counter-cultural community he was nurturing? Was Paul really a man who was incapable of re-thinking his deep-seated prejudices? Consider the enormous step he took in letting go of Jewish dietary restrictions, in embracing Gentiles at the dinner table. He did that because, in his mind, NO barrier could be allowed to stand which kept people who were turning to God from joining the community of his counter-imperial kingdom. The concern to build that community ALWAYS trumps in Paul, even if it means giving up something as deeply ingrained as the prohibition against pork, etc. The overwhelming tendency of Paul suggests to me that if he were here today, he would be laboring with all his might for an inclusive stance toward gays, just as he labored to overcome the alienation between Jewish and Gentile Christians.
I think this “dust” theory of Paul on homosexuality is preferable to views which try to make Paul out as gay-affirming and inerrant, or to the view that he has in mind naturally constituted heterosexuals who deliberately went against that (a view that I think is “reaching.”) It sees Paul as a man of limited and finite vision, carried along by the Spirit of God, and yearning to see the transformation he had experienced become the experience of the world around him. The irony is that we may best stand on his shoulders today by shedding his assumptions about homosexuality.
Its better to live and die alone than to burn in hell forever. Isn’t it? Or is there no hell in liberal theology?
Simon, does God really want the fear of hell to stop us from exploring this matter honestly?
Because whenever I see biblical passages threatening judgment, it is not against people who are peaceably living their own lives or honestly exploring issues. It is against people who actively seek to oppress others or choose to be complicit in an oppressive system, and neither the gay people I know, nor the “liberal” Christians who accept them, are anything like that.
“Its better to live and die alone than to burn in hell forever. Isn’t it? Or is there no hell in liberal theology?”
Your wording is interesting, and says more about you that you may realize. For instance, that you’d rather make it about an automatic knee-jerk reaction against ‘liberals’ instead of giving any real thought to what was said. That you choose to divide the world into ‘good religious conservatives’ and ‘bad godless liberals’. You automatically assume that liberals aren’t religious and religious people can’t be liberal.
The thing that is interesting for me is how we have characterized the concept of singleness as being a curse, a horrific ending to one’s life, something that is a destiny that should only be heaped upon the outcasts of society. From a biblical perspective, Paul is very clear on singleness – it is a gift from God!
I by no means am a bible scholar, but when Paul discusses marriage in 1 corinthians 7 he says “it is good for a man not to marry…I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift FROM GOD; one has this gift (singleness), another has that. Now for the unmarried and the widows I say it is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.”
Christ also had something to say about this issue in Matthew 19. In discussing divorce with the Pharisees he closed the discussion with a comment to his disciples that “some are eunuchs because they were born that way; some were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage BECAUSE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” While I am not sure this is a complete list, their are several great men that chose a life of solitude and worship of God as their primary love – Daniel, Elijah, Elisha, Paul, John the Baptist, and (of course) Jesus never married.
Here’s the other interesting point of this passage when Paul does discuss the necessity for marriage since “there is so much immorality,” he talks about that “each man should have his own WIFE” and that the wife should have “her own husband.” He makes reference about the husband fulfilling his marital duty to “his wife” and likewise the wife to “her husband.” The wife’s body belongs to “her husband” and the husband’s body belongs to “the wife.”
Later on in the passage he talks about how a woman should not seperate from “her husband” and vice versa. In Ephesians 5 Paul gives clear direction from God that wives should “submit to their husbands” and that husbands should “love their wives.”
My point in bringing this up is that there has been a lot of arguments made about what the NT says about homosexuality and then the discussion goes to what Christ doesn’t say about homesexuality. If we look at this from another point and ask what does the bible say about
MARRIAGE? Not one place in the bible – OT or NT – does it EVER give any consideration for marriage being between a wife and a wife or a husband and a husband. Never once does Paul refer to “spouse submit to your spouse” so as to be gender inspecific; never once does he mention wife submit to wife or husband submit to husband.
Christ is to return one day for His church. The picture that is painted in scripture is that the Groom will return for his BRIDE, not another groom. Again, when Christ is addressing the Pharisees in Matthew 19, he says “haven’t you read that in the beginning the creator made them MALE AND FEMALE…for this reason a MAN will leave his FATHER AND MOTHER and be united to HIS WIFE.” He did not say that a man will leave their parents (again gender inspecific) or that they will be united with their spouse.
My point in all of this is to say that if we are going to head down a path of pointing out that Christ did not preach against homosexuality and construe that somehow that means he must have been OK with it, then you also have to look at what he DID say about marriage and on that topic he was unwavering – every topic or discussion or reference of marriage whether by Christ or by Paul is referred to in a very gender specific manner – MAN AND WOMAN.
It seems to me that Paul and other biblical writers draw upon the experiences of their immediate audiences to draw analogies to God. In the Old Testament God is pictured as a man with two wives. This does not mean only polygamous marriage is acceptable! Heterosexual marriage was overwhelmingly the most common social ordering of sexuality in Jewish culture. So it is no surprise if it is used to picture Christ’s relationship to the church. But this does not necessarily imply that only that sexual orientation or social ordering of sexual expression is appropriate. Given, as I argue in another comment, that Jews and the early Christian leaders may have been unlikely to encounter or recognize healthy expressions of homosexual love that were not associated with and colored by the corrupt religious-social system and values of the Greco-Roman culture, it is no surprise if there are no passages regulating the expression of homoerotic love.
Celibacy is a gift from God, but have you really sat down and listened to the folks who are saying that every fiber of their being SCREAMS that they do not have that gift, that they need sexual love, and that they are only able to experience that with members of the same sex? Is it really fair to impose life-long celibacy on them?
Here is a blog post that addresses the whole alcoholism-vs-homosexuality debate. As Jeffrey Siker points out, it’s a specious argument. http://arainbowflaginnarnia.blogspot.com/2006/08/alcoholism-homosexuality-and-gentile.html
The major issue i am having with these arguments is that no one is actually reffering to the Bible… i think i saw one old testament refference? there tons of others for example 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Romans 1:26-28 Both clearly say that homosexuallity is wrong and those are new testament verses, Its not natural to be in a relationship with the same sex. You cant produce off spring and there is a high chance of receiving HIV.. God in the beginning created Adam and Eve setting an example for us to follow.. And i aggree with the email you received homosexuality is a sin therefore it has to be put off and fought if you are a follower of Christ!! NO if ands or buts….
Then you must agree that it is also mandated by the Lord to stone to death Fornicators, adulterers, that eating pork and seafood (except for fish with scales on them) is forbidden, that having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle is forbidden, and more.
Otherwise you are merely cherry-picking what you will and won’t accept out of those same Scriptures, and that sir, is nothing less than hypocritical.
Bradley,
Two references hardly constitute “tons of others”. In fact, what the bible has tons of is *love*. Over 700 occurrences of the word love in some translations. The King James has the least with a sparse (?) 425-ish occurrences of the word *love*.
Some translations don’t have any (zero, nadda, zip) occurrences of the word homosexual. The most I’ve seen is 4. Total.
Don’t you think it’s a little odd that with all that information on LOVE, we still cannot agree on what God’s love looks like in this world? And (this is the point really) we agree to disagree on this. It’s a non-issue.
But with homosexuality, with virtually no detail information whatsoever, we (the church) have declared the topic to be crystal clear. unambiguous. nonnegotiable. How can this be so?
Many people have referred to the Bible with regard to this post.
Do your examples of 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 constitute “tons” of other examples? Do you know what the *actual* translation of those two (tons) verses are?
Where does Jesus address homosexuality? Nowhere. Why do you think that is?
Are couples who have sex but unable to conceive sinning because the activity cannot lead to offspring?
Gay males are no longer the most likely to receive HIV. Lesbians are the most unlikely to be infected by HIV. So, that makes them more acceptable?
Your argument is full of wholes. How do you intend to plug such holes, or are your assumptions incorrect?
Pretty sure HIV isn’t mentioned in the Bible. Just sayin’.
I think you also fail to realize that the bible was not originally written down until nearly 300 years after the death of Jesus. Look into the Council of Nicaea. It was a bunch of Bishops meeting to discuss the nature of Christ and THEY decided what eventually ended up in the bible. What you are following today in your “Bible” is put together by a bunch of men who decided what they wanted to put in there. Jesus did not write the bible. If you were a true follower of Christ, you would only want to spread love to everyone, not hatred. Anyone promoting hatred of a certain type of person can not truly call themselves a Christian. And I truly hope that you do not believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans and you therefore believe the universe to only be 6000 years old…because that is pure stupidity.
Thanks for this post. What a touching insight, I think the way you expressed that no sin can prevent you from loving and be loving is eloquent and important. I’m writing a blog about reading the Bible in a year and yesterday’s post mentions this topic, as I read Romans 1-2. But as I say there, in the times that the Bible was written there was no opportunity for homosexual people to live in open, manogamous, safe relationships. Now there is in many countries, I think it’s so archaic that much of the Church doesn’t see the ‘homosexuality as a sin’ stance is so utterly unloving.
Thanks again. http://www.scripturethis.wordpress.com
Just found your site as I was searching for info on the whole gay rights mormon conservatism thing. This is a great post.
great article! well thought out and reasoned. as a pastor of an Open and Affirming UCC church we get a lot of these same arguments leveled at us. they’re awful, poorly reasoned, and have no basis in biology. i’m still struggling with the concept that most people haven’t heard of the Kinsey Scale nor have done any spiritual work on sexuality aside from “Don’t.”
thanks for the post!
I had never heard of the Kinsey Scale. Looked it up. Thanks for the info, Z1G.
John is so on it. I love this mug.
Thank you for this post! I read it via Dan Savage. I think it's so important for this message to be heard by the world (all of it – Islamic, Budhist, Judaish, Christian…). Just as it is so important for every one of us to speak out against any kind of prejudice, violence, bullying and hate.
Thank you taking one more step in the right direction.
I suppose it's just because, as I've entered middle-age, I've become a weepy old queen, but the brilliant and civilized discourse here actually moves me, and does my heart a world of good. I thank all readers and commenters for it.
Thank you, Matthew. That's because I don't write about how I get one of them to school late about once a week, snap at my oldest when I'm tired, let them have messy rooms, let my teenager swear when she's really pissed about something . . . you know, the regular stuff. ;->
She does know that if she swears in front of anyone else, it is on her head. And to my knowledge, she doesn't.
We do OK. I set a lousy example with money management, altho' we're working on that. But I couldn't love two girlies more . . .
Hopefully, if they grow up knowing anything, it will be that.
I would firstly like to thank you for your perspective on this matter. It always interests me to know how people other than myself think. Secondly, I’d like to address the fact that I am a christian.
It utterly breaks my heart to hear that gay people get depressed to the point of actually taking their own lives. This is obviously not what God wants for any of his creation. What breaks my heart even more is that there are actually people claiming to be christians who hate the gays. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT what God wants us, as christians to do.
I am a theatre oriented person and therefore am exposed to a vast majority of gay people. I can tell you honestly that some of the gay people I have met have a more clear moral center than some of the people I know who claim to be christians. I love each and every one of my gay friends to the death of me. It makes me angry that people would ridicule a person and make them feel inferior because of their sin. EVERYONE SINS. Who am I to judge this person who is gay? I am no one to do such a thing. I will not judge them, no, but God will have his turn.
It is important to understand that I am not guiltless either. I too, will be judged before God. It is a day I await in fear because I have lived a sinful life. The point is this: It is not the place of a christian, or any person for that matter, to judge anyone: gay, straight, black or white. This is not the concern for humans, but for God.
My uncle was gay. He died some years ago of AIDS. Though I wasn’t old enough to really know him, I think that’s the worst part. There was a life that I could have loved so deeply; he was my own flesh and blood for crying out loud! One thing that really shakes me is that lying on his death bed, he explained to his brothers and sisters that he realized his lifestyle choice was wrong-he realized he had sinned and he asked God for forgiveness. I have no doubt that his beautiful soul is at peace with his maker right this very moment.
Homosexuality is sexual sin, just like pre-marital sex is sexual sin and just like lust is sexual sin. Can any one christian honestly sit there and tell me that they have never in their life had a sexual fantasy about another person? How many christians have sex before marriage? How many christians are gay? The numbers would throw any person for a loop. Sexual sin is sexual sin. God sees all sin equally in his own eyes. Therefore, it is not our place to judge gay people, but it is our DUTY to love them. Do you really think you’re going to “change” somebody by telling them that they’re going to hell? No. You’re not. All you can do is be there for them, be a friend and love them like you love yourself, because they too, were created by God.
While I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, I do not believe in depriving gay people of love. Now, I don’t believe this the same way you do, but to each man, his own, right? I don’t support gay marriage, no, but the fact that someone is gay does not mean they’re not going to heaven. Your “contradictions” are not valid because anyone who knows the bible will tell you that the New Testament wipes out the old. So while thieves and fornicators are “barred” from heaven, they are also saved by the grace of God who gave his son to die so that these very people would have a way of getting to heaven. All anyone who has sinned has to do is ask Jesus Christ into their heart. All sinners are barred from heaven because it is a perfect place that spares no room for sin. In this case, I would have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation. Thankfully, by the mercy of my maker, I can ask for his forgiveness and voila! Heaven, here I come. This is the truth to any sinner. To believe that Jesus Christ paid your debt and to ask him into your heart is all you need to get to heaven.
I don’t think you quite understand that christians aren’t asking gay’s to live a life of no love. Quite the contrary, I believe they should be loved by anyone and everyone! However, it is their sexual sin that I don’t agree with just like it is the sexual sin of my best friend who has slept with a million and one guys that I don’t agree with. Just because I have chosen to stay pure until I am married, doesn’t mean I am judging anyone else who is guilty of sexual sin, because I too am guilty of sexual sin. It would taste a lie to say I have never lusted after a man before, and it would also taste a lie to say that I have never provoked lust in a man for me. I am just as guilty of sexual sin as any homosexual man or woman out there. Celibacy is not damnation. In fact, God sometimes grants people this gift so that they can live their life fully for him without distraction of a husband or wife. Marriage is ultimately a choice and in some ways an escape from sexual sin. Since God made sex to be good, obviously, people are going to like it. In order to save people from further sexual sin, people are allowed the choice to be married so that they may freely have sex whenever they wish-but only to their spouse. There has never been any proof that there is a “gay gene” or that people are just “born gay”. People are born sinners-and there is no exception to that rule, every person is born a sinner-but that there is no proof that people are born gay ultimately leads us to believe that homosexuality is a choice. God would not allow people to be born gay if homosexuality is a sin. He does not set people up for failure like that.
We live in a society that is self-absorbed and gets what they want. I too, am guilty of selfishness and self-indulgence. However, I do not to EVERYTHING I want and I resist the temptation to do everything that I simply “cannot help”. You think you can’t help it, but really you’re just diminishing your own sense of strength. I believe that being gay is a choice one makes, just like I believe that loving someone for the rest of my life is a choice I’m going to have to make. I am more than positive there will be days in my married life that I believe I will actually want to murder my husband, instead I will choose to love on him. Not in a sexual way, but I will love on him in the way that a wife is supposed to love her husband. I may hate him, but I will choose to love him.
Please understand, I am in no way trying to attack anyone who is gay. Some of my most beloved relationships are with people who are gay. I am however, trying to show you that not all christians are brainwashed to think that God hates gay people. God LOVES gay people! There are churches out there who are preaching the wrong things and turning many people away from God’s love and it’s so frustrating! There is nothing wrong with the person who is gay. It is their sin that is going to get them in trouble, just like my sin will get me in trouble. I will stand before God one day and he will judge me for every sin I’ve ever committed, but thankfully I serve a loving God who has and will forgive me for all my sin once I ask for it.
So basically, the moral of the story is this: I am sorry for any hurt that gay’s have been caused because some christians misinterpreted what the Bible had to say. I am sorry that gay’s feel attacked and alone on a daily basis because some people think they have the right to belittle them. Gay people, just like any other people DESERVE love and respect, for they are people too. Don’t hate the sinner, hate the sin. Don’t judge gay people either, for their sexual sin is but a mirror for yours. Their sin is just more out in the open than your sin is.
The "contradictions" I refer to were a reply from another user, not the author of this post
JessicaAlexander writes I don’t support gay marriage and I believe that being gay is a choice one makes and then has the hypocrisy to write I am in no way trying to attack anyone who is gay."
Of course you aren't, JA: in the nicest way possible you just want to maintain second class status for gays based on your religious beliefs that must be understood not to be your opinions but god's truth, which just so happens in fact to be backed by wrong assumptions and incorrect information. But why let what's true interfere with what you believe is true when all it does it inflict unnecessary harm others.
After all, you're just so… nice! What's a little bigotry between loving friends, eh?
Bingo. And therein lies the problem. We couch bigotry in such lovely sentiments – loving the sinner but not the sin, it's not me, it's God's word, I would never be cruel to anyone but I still believe they are less than . . . .
And refuse to think through the real-life ramifications of their statements, because, after all, those silly gay people could just not ever have sex. What's the big deal???
::::sarcasm font off:::::
On the contrary, tildeb, I don't want there to be separate classes of people, gay and straight. I don't in any way think that I am better than any gay person who ever lived. Like I said before "I am just as guilty of sexual sin as any other homosexual man or woman" The way I feel towards homosexuality is the same way I feel about my own sexual sin, and also the sexual sin that is now socially acceptable now-a-days (casual sex)
DR: I agree with you. I think I should be avidly working against the cruelty that gays go through. Not one person deserves to be treated the way they are treated. One thing though is that gay people are also pretty intolerant when it comes to christians because they believe we hate all of them, so most of the time, I get judged before they can even get to know me. I understand that most of the time, this is the way they are treated, but two wrongs don't make a right. However, I don't think any gay person is going to be harming themselves on my account. I remind my gay friends on a daily basis how loved they are, and how much they mean to me. I never preach to them I only love them which is the only way that I can show to them that God loves them. It is a friendship that comes with it's disagreements, yes, but it's a difference of beliefs just like my beliefs are different from my muslim friends. I don't try to convert any one of my friends because that will NEVER happen. People only change if they want to change so all I can do is love them-which I love to do!
Mindy: I understand what you're saying. However, I am not trying to be intolerant, I am standing up for what I believe in, in the same way that gay people stand up for what they believe in. I would be living with a guilty conscience if I didn't stand up for what I believe in. I am not trying to be an arrogant christian at all, quite the contrary, I am trying to show that we are ALL equal and ALL sinners. Even the most devout christians are guilty of sin. However, I know this will never be known to people who disagree with me because people WANT christians to disagree any way they can so that they can point out our flaws and hypocrisy. We are people just like you. However, neither side will ever see eye to eye and I'm okay with that. It was never my intent to change your minds because I am not so naive as to think that were even possible. I just wanted to let people know that there ARE christians out there who aren't judging gays because if you're a real christian, you don't live in la la land, you struggle with your own temptations and your own demons and your own troubles. Any christian who tells you that nothing in their life is out of the ordinary is a liar (and maybe that's their struggle).
All in all, I am just as guilty and am not judging them-like I said, that's not my place. I am not trying to change any of your minds, I just wanted to tell people that there are christians out there who do genuinely LOVE gay people. With that said, I will not respond to any more "reply's" because I would be wasting my breath. We're fighting two different wars here and I'm not into preaching to recruit, I just felt I should stand up for what I believe in, just like all of you are doing the same. It's an admirable trait on both accounts and all of your passions are really beautiful (I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be cheesy, I'm completely serious haha) I hope you all live blessed lives and that you grant others the privilege you've granted me, and that is letting me speak my peace. I hope you all understand where I am coming from
Jessicaalexandra – no idea if you are reading this; the stock answer is always "I won't answer anymore because I know you're not going to listen." OK. Don't answer. But I sincerely hope you read this through to the end.
I understand that you've been taught your whole life that gay sex is bad, along with all those other sexual sins. I get it. And long-held beliefs are hard to let go.
But when you say gay sex is sinful, "the same" as your own sexual sin, consider this. Your sexual sin, I assume, would be premarital sex, or lusting for premarital sex, or something along those lines. In your mind, you feel guilty, you feel sorry, you might promise God you won't do it again, etc. But what you also know is that even if you vow celibacy until your wedding night, you still have that wedding night to look forward to! And then, unless you become an adulterer, you'll be able to have all the sex you want with your beloved for the rest of your life. Sex no longer equals sin! Yay! So for YOU, sexual sin is temporary.
For a gay person, in your rulebook, sex equals sin FOREVER. Doesn't matter how monogamous, how chaste until s/he meets that special one and only – none of that will make it acceptable. The special, private bond of intimacy that we hope for with that one perfect someone – - – nope, none for you, gay people!!! I love you, gay friends, I think you are just the bee's knees, gay friends – but sorry – you can't ever have sex in your entire life without it being a guilt-ridden, sinful experience. I know, seems unfair, but hey, I didn't make the rules! You'll have to take this up with God, oh, but wait, He already had it all written down, and I'm afraid that's the end of that. Maybe He'll let you be straight in heaven??
C'mon. You want everyone here to live blessed lives, except for the gay folk, because, well, they are forever sinning, darn it.
I feel fairly strongly that God gave us thinking brains and feeling hearts for a reason. He did not intend for you to cherry-pick a few questionably translated Bible passages to subjugate an entire group of your fellow humans. Any more than He ever intended the Bible be used to justify slavery – yet it was. It was waved around and quoted loudly to justify the owning of other people. And those minds and hearts He expected us to use? We did, and we figured out that slavery was a really bad idea.
The Bible was used (still is, sometimes) to subjugate women to men – it was quoted as a valid reason to deny us the right to vote, the right to pursue an education and the right to hold a job. But again, most compassionate and thinking Christians realized, eventually, how wrong-headed that is. Now we look at third-world countries that hold their women hostage to ancient beliefs and feel outrage.
This is more of the same, JA. The human race is in no danger whatsoever of dying out just because gay people are given the same rights as others and are allowed to marry and adopt. Geez, we have enough medical intervention available to infertile couples now, that babies are being born in actual batches these days – to people who only a few decades ago would've remained childless.
So they take up the slack, so to speak, for all those gay folk not procreating. Even though many of them still do, thanks to that same medical intervention.
I admire you for trying to speak out about your beliefs. But I would ask that you seriously consider the possibility that your beliefs might be . . . wrong. Just consider it. Think about it. Talk to your gay friends about their hopes and dreams for their futures and their love lives. Pray about it. And don't just regurgitate Bible verses. Pray quietly, and really listen to what God might have to say.
JA, you miss the connection between what you believe and what you support: no marriage for gays. There's the legal discrimination right there. It causes harm. There is the extension of your beliefs imposed on others without any rationale other than your religious belief. That's the second class citizenship translated into law. And you are okay with that. That's the bigotry. Full stop.
Believe what you want, but unless you are equally willing to have your rights and freedoms sifted through some majority's religious filter first for their approval and acceptance according to their beliefs rather than yours, then you are harming the equality of others in law and unwittingly undermining your own.
@jessica: One thing though is that gay people are also pretty intolerant when it comes to christians because they believe we hate all of them, so most of the time, I get judged before they can even get to know me.>>>
Hi there.
What you're not tying together is that your *feelings* about gay people aren't important here. Your *beliefs* about gay people are what is causing them a lot of pain. Your beliefs represent a blanket of "Christian belief" that they experience on a macro level.
It would be like in the days when we owned slaves in this country, asking an African-American to not "hate" their owner because their owner was a really nice person and made sure that her slaves knew that she loved them. In this equation as a Christian who is telling gay and lesbian citizens that they are not good enough to be married, that the way they love is "sin", you are the slave owner. I know you're not going to like it, but the thing is, you don't get to define who you are in this scenario. They do. *They* get the last word on the impact of what you say and and what you believe. I know you don't *intend* to cause harm, but your belief causes tremendous harm. And as sweet as you seem to be and I bet you are a deeply loving person who would never want to hurt anyone? You are hurting a lot of gay people outside of your relationships with your vote and your belief system. And you are responsible for that.
I understand that most of the time, this is the way they are treated, but two wrongs don’t make a right.>>>
Well, they do in this instance., though I'm sure a lot of them try to love you as you are. You are causing harm which is going to cause people to be angry with you. You need to learn how to be OK with that if your beliefs about homosexuality are more important than being treated well. That's just the law of cause and effect. You are actually the one treating gay and lesbian people poorly *first* through the way you say God sees them and who they love. They are just responding to you. It's not really reasonable for you to expect them to be kind to you (though I'm sure many are).
However, I don’t think any gay person is going to be harming themselves on my account. I remind my gay friends on a daily basis how loved they are, and how much they mean to me.>>>
Jessica, you being on this blog right now proclaiming that being gay is wrong, who they love is sinful and that being gay is just reduced to how one has sex is hurting them. There are hundreds of gay men and women reading you say that *right now*. You are hurting them. So go into despair over it. And some kids after hearing this over and over again, kill themselves. It's true and I know it's awful to hear, but this is more about how you are impacting strangers.
You're great for entering into this discussion. And I've been on the other side of this, someone said the same things to me. It was a shock, I was very angry and appalled that they wouldn't let me be who I was, someone who loved gay people. But then I listened, and then I understood. Maybe you will too. If not, I hope you keep reading!
What you believe in is a book written by men and I don’t care if some say it’s inspired by some divine creature. Believe what you will, even if it is the Pink Invisible Unicorn.
However, too many fundy christians ARE forcing their rules down the throats of others, based on their beliefs (homosexuality is wrong). 450 mammals and 150 species of birds practice homosexuality and they were allegedly made by your God. God wouldn’t make mistakes would he. Unfortunately your book of fables is not Gods word but mans.
I believe the bible says women are to submit to their husbands. Throw out the equal rites, you do what I say.
To those that say pray, people have been praying for 2000 years for peace, ain’t working like all prayers. Pray to god to make you gay for 10 years and tell me if it happens.
And there are none so blind as those who will not see.
I would like to ask you a favor. Can you please talk with your GLBT friends and ask them at what age did they first started having same sex attraction feelings.
Then ask them if they think if they tried really really really hard if they could change, change into only having opposite sex attraction. If they prayed really hard could they “convert” to hetro.
Please do this then come back and give us a report.
Thank you!
Hi there, grandma. As a gay man, let me point you to questions and answers I had with a straight pastor that might address your questions: http://arainbowflaginnarnia.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-epistle-to-christian.html
I prayed really hard…as in, for 35 years, hard. Offered myself for ministry, went to seminary. Still gay.
My friend Peterson Toscano spent 17 years, $30,000 and two exorcisms trying to be straight. Still gay.
I am the way I was made…the way God made me.
Dear jessica,
Your “this is horrible” is a good first step, but it’s one that most reasonable people are taking. Your theology – what you’ve stated here – is contributing to driving children to despair and a part of the reason why many are killing themselves. That is well-documented, and I’m telling you that as a christian with lots of experience with gay kids.
You need to actually do something to solve the problem you are creating. Your “I’m sorry!” is making the problem worse because what people want from you is action, not apologies or expressions of remorse. Those are lovely but they don’t do anything to solve the problem.
I’m sure that there is absolutely not one bone in your body that *wants* to create the problem, here, but the fact of the matter is that it is happening and those of you who attempt to boil someone’s sexuality down to a set of behaviors that can be stopped are hurting children. You need to be willing to save these kids more than you need to be right about this theology,
"God sees all sin equally in his own eyes."
I am very interested in your reasoning in reaching such a conclusion.
"Thankfully, by the mercy of my maker, I can ask for his forgiveness and voila! Heaven, here I come."
I cannot agree with reducing it to such simplicity.
"People are born sinners-and there is no exception to that rule, every person is born a sinner…."
I believe you are mistaken. One of the very important things about who Christ Jesus is that he is proof that, though a man be subject to temptation, he need not ever give in to it, that sin is not inherent to the human nature. I must assert that there *is* an Exception, whom you cannot deny and claim to be a Christian in the orthodox sense of the faith. Moreover, one is surely not born already a sinner! For what blame could you lay justly upon the innocent? Indeed, our Lord has told us, "the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these"—present tense.
I have read and will ponder all your last thoughts, seriously, I will. I know I said I will not be responding but I also wanted to address Matthew Tweedell because when I believe I am wrong, I will willingly admit it.
MT: You are right, I was mistaken and thank you for correcting me. We are all born into sin. children, are not born sinners. That was my mistake in trying to think quickly.
Also, when I said that all sin is equal in God's eyes, I guess I should have clarified: Jesus equates committing adultery with having lust in your heart and committing murder with having hatred in your heart. However, this does not mean the sins are equal. What Jesus was trying to get across is that sin is still sin even if you only want to do the act, without actually carrying it out. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day taught that it was okay to think about anything you wanted to, as long as you did not act on those desires. Jesus was forcing them to realize that God judges a person’s thoughts as well as his actions. Jesus proclaimed that our actions are the result of what is in our hearts.
Lastly, I am curious as to why you don't believe that asking for forgiveness for your sins is not the way to heaven? God says that if you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ paid for your sins and you accept the Lord as your savior, that you are saved. Is this wrong? So me asking for forgiveness of my sins allows me to go to heaven right? Otherwise, what did Jesus Christ die for?
JA, that you're open to considering what's been offered is really beautiful. Thank you. It takes lots of time and courage to change. Again, I've been in your spot and for you to stay here when you get pressed to the wall shows that your heart is pursuing Jesus. And we seek what we find! xoxoxoxo
What DR said, Jessicaalexandra – I'm grateful to read that a young woman who holds her faith so dear is open to allowing that faith to mature with her. Kudos to you – that takes a big heart.
You seem like a fairly intelligent young lady, Jessica. Thank you for your reply.
First, well… there's also that Jesus died for offense against the Sanhedrin.
Now, I'm not sure where you got that idea of what "God says". It may be that that's a valid way of expressing in part the Word of God, but that does not make it what God said exactly. It is however what St. Paul and others testified to (although if they were testifying as to what they'd heard God say, that would make it hearsay, and I'd see no reason to believe it any more than to believe anyone else who might claim to hear from God); yet I don't see how asking for forgiveness equates with believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing in Him means all of Him, not just His forgiveness of your sins. He Himself has said that many who call Him Lord will not be admitted into the Kingdom. However, that admission is no way contingent upon explicitly begging His pardon. If we confess our sins, they will be forgiven, but what if we should accidentally overlook any, or die before we have a chance to ask for forgiveness for something? Well, we believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin.
By the way, where do you get that we’re born into sin? Is sin an element in the atmosphere? I mean, sure, there’s sin in the world we’re born into, but that exists as various discreet thoughts, words, and deeds—it isn’t the essence of this world itself (and, in fact, in the beginning, it’s not even there). Certainly man has a sinful nature, but it’s not something the act of being born exactly puts us into. And I’d say we are as much born into perfect love as we are into sin.
Yesterday afternoon, I picked up my daughter and a teammate after their volleyball game. They are sophomores in high school, they'd won their game and were chattering away about . . . whatever teenaged girls chatter about . . . when my daughter said, "Mom, promise you won't tell anyone? It's not public knowledge yet." I promised. "G. is leaving at the end the semester!!" She said this with great dismay – G. is a favorite teacher, an enthusiastic, delightful young woman who gives her heart and soul to her students.
My daughter and her friend lamented this development, then she said, "She's moving to –." When I asked why, she told me that the teacher said it was the best decision she could make. A little smile crossed her face, and she said, "Do you know WHY that is, Mom? Because L. is there!! She's going to be with L.!!!"
L. was her English Lit. teacher last year, who left because she was accepted into a Ph.D. program in another city. It was well known around the school that L. and G. were best friends, but my daughter and her BFF had a feeling that there was more to it. Turns out they were right. Now G. had made the decision to move to be with her partner, to start a life together. And my daughter and her friend were very excited for them, even as they knew they would miss her terribly.
I looked in my rearview mirror as my daughter and her friend were agreeing that this was for the best, that L. and G. were just the cutest couple, and then immediately began discussing the latest development in the boy-crush of said friend. I could not have been prouder of my child. I feel so blessed that she is growing up in such an accepting, loving community, and just wanted to share this to reinforce the message that not everyone is filled with homophobia and hate.
Mindy – thank you for sharing. It's so nice to see the younger generation leading by example. When parents don't teach their children to hate – guess what – they don't. It really is that simple.
Dear Nicole. I know we all want this to be true. Unfortunately it is a little bit more complicated than that. "Not teaching children to hate" is easily said. But what exacty does that mean? How exactly do we do it? Most rents teach their kids not to smoke pot either, and yet they do. We do not teach by words, but by examples. And I don't think that "hating others" is the core problem. Hating is a very energy consuming, stressful, hurtful act. Those who do wish they could stop. But they can't. I am pretty certain I know what I am talking about. I spent four years hating very much. And I still have not learned fully to stop hating, as much as I want to. Now that I am myself responsible for a growing human being, I am working hard on remedying that.
I think the problem is that to teach your children NOT to hate, is by teaching them NOT to hate themselves. And since actions teach, not words, to be able to do that, you need to be able NOT to hate yourself. And that is the core problem. Because for all their talk of love – especially, of course, of asexual, higher, spiritual… in other words trimmed, trunctated, limited love – many Christians do hate themselves, for all those sins they must perpetually fight within themselves. And those who hate themselves have only hatred to teach, only hatred to pass on.
When parents are able to love themselves will they teach their children not to hate.
But try to teach that to someone who has so grown accustomed to self-hatred that he no longer can imagine a world without it, who truly thinks you are mad or trying to tempt them into hell, when you tell them that what they are trying to cut away from themselves all the time is beautiful and should be left to grow, and flower, and flourish.
Unfortunately it isn't simple at all.
But if Mindy either had rents herself who gave her that precious gift to pass on to her daughter, or if she managed to win it for herself, well, as the Jewish saying goes: (S)he who saves one life, saves the world.
Pat yourself on the back and here, i'll give you an 'atta boy, well done mom
oh a double smiley 
Whenever you share about your relationship with your daughters, it always strikes me what a wonderful mother you must be, Mindy!
Maybe that's YOUR personal experience, MarkF, but I have known several gay and lesbian couples, and what they have is love. They are good people. Some are devout Christians and active in their churches, as well (which is not necessarily the same as being a good person.)
I've also known gay couples who have broken up. And straight couples who have broken up.
There are no guarantees. Relationships are not easy.
But please don't make negative blanket statements about ALL gay people. One half of one of those couples was a gay man who was a very dear friend of mine for decades. He was one of the kindest people I've ever known. He died of a heart attack, and I will always miss him. You didn't know him, and you can't judge him. I know God loved, and loves, him.
"Don’t hold anyone’s hand. Don’t snuggle on your couch with anyone. Don’t cuddle up with anyone at night before you fall asleep. Don’t have anyone to chat with over coffee in the morning."
What you say COULD be true if only the above were a good description of what homosexuality is like in reality. What you describe is a myth. Or it's temporary. Or it comes right before a big emotional crack up that ends the relationship.
You can't put wings on a pig. You can't make homosexuality something it's not, namely into something healthy.
BTW, none of what you describe above is against what God wants for us. Archbishop Dolan of New York tells us that it's fine to have same-sex love, just not same-sex sex.
I lived this life for thirty plus years. I know a lot more about it than you ever will. You're talking about some theory that makes sense inside your own head. Unfortunately it's been tried. For thousands of years. It still hasn't worked out like think it should.
Another BTW, why do you think you know more than over 2,000 years of the accumulated wisdom of the Church?
Life is complex. A person can indulge in this once in a while and still be a Christian, as long as they ask for God's forgiveness for it. But they can't base their whole life and theology around it without ceasing to be a Christian. The more a person is wedded to the philosophy of homosexuality, the more evil they become. The more a person practices the sex of homosexuality, the worse they become.
"I lived this life for thirty plus years. I know a lot more about it than you ever will."
Wow, you sure are older than me. But… if you know so much on account of your age… won't I know as much when I get to be the same age? Or are you telling me that I will never reach 30? That I will die before I get there? How would you know that? Hey, are you threatening me or something?
"You can’t make homosexuality something it’s not, namely into something healthy. "
I didn't know that I had to make it healthy. Is it ill? What's it got? The flu?
"The more a person practices the sex of homosexuality, the worse they become."
Really? How do you know that? You got statistics or something? I'd love to see your sources.
"the philosophy of homosexuality"
Ooh, I know Existantialism, and Logical Positivism, Language Philosphy and Kantianism, Idealism and Postmodernism. The philsophy of homosexulaity I dont know. Please, tell me, what is that philosophy?
Curiously, yours truly.
I'm surprised you try to deny it, considering that you are an openly practicing homosexual:
The Homosexual Philosophy: A Primer
brought to you by Mad Matt
Ministries
Homosexual philosophy is based on 3 primary tenets:
1) I want sex.
2) I would rather have sex with a member of my own sex.
3) So f*ck you.
We see clearly that this is not God's design for man: Adam couldn't have been homosexual in the beginning as there were no other men there with him. Adam also couldn't have been heterosexual in the beginning as there were no women then either. It seems quite clear: God's design is that is that a man should masturbate in solitude. The first tenant goes clearly against the God's intent.
Anyhow, the bloke's whining (to rudely mock your dialect, FreeFox; imagine my faux British accent fellow Americans) finally got on God's nerves enough to make a woman to tell him to grow up. But still, what sort of "getting to know" about good and evil do you think God had forbidden them in their youth, before the “serpant” got the better of the woman?
In divine consequence of what she had done (since obviously she was the one who turned Adam on to the idea), the woman got pregnant. Now, in those days, it must be remembered that for their kids to reproduce, they had to intermarry; so God had not yet forbidden incest at that time. Indeed, in the same way neither had he forbidden homosexuality, and Adam’s boys could do whatever they pleased with one another. But the point is that this as well as Adam's sexual relationship with Eve was not part of God's plan from the beginning, because God is just so powerful that He can even disrupt His own plans!
The remaining tenets fall quite easily: number 2 is just gross (that's why it's called number 2), and number 3 is just rude. I mean that, of course, not judgmentally, but in a philosophical sense. So, in summation, the homosexual philosophy (not to be confused with the homosexual, Phil O'Sophy) is the way of rude gross sex, this serving as the moral imperative and primary virtue of its ethics.
As for 1) epistemology and 2) ontology, these are relatively simple:
1) We can come to know something through having sex with it (known in some circles as the Sodomite Phallicy); and
2) the nature of all being is sexual (first elucidated by the goMorons).
Hmm… that’s not a right couple of sentences; try this:
“God’s design is that a man should masturbate in solitude. The first tenet goes clearly against God’s intent.”
I’m not drunk. I swear.
Well, MT, kudos for the epistemology and ontology. I don't often but for that I laughed out loud and woke up the dog.
I'm sorry for the heartache the end of your relationship(s) must have brought you, but you really do need to accept the fact that breaking up is not in any way related to being gay. Such an accusation is patently ridiculous.
Do you honestly think straight folk never break up? never divorce? Look around you! look at the divorce rates–higher, incidentally, in straight couples than in gay couples in many areas where gay marriage is allowed. (The exception, oddly, being Sweden–take from that what you will.) You cannot allow your own experiences to define the experiences of every other person, especially when you have so many folks here telling you that their experiences are different. Every person here has experiences equally valid to yours, and by claiming that homosexuals can't have a healthy, loving relationship, you are are directly insulting and devaluing those of us who have had or who do have, shall we say, "non-standard" relationships.
I would also hazard a guess that your deep-seated certainty that homosexuals cannot have love was a factor in the loss of your relationship. How can you expect a relationship that you subconsciously sabotage with the certainty that it will fail to succeed?
MarkF, as I stated on the other thread, i have read my share of posts by gay men and they are nothing like yours. FreeFox for example, when you read what he writes you believe that he is queer. Your posts do not ring true to me, I am a skeptic that you are or ever were a gay man at all.
I don’t know where you live, but I’m thinking you picked the wrong gay community, MarkF. I just know far too many who are the absolute antithesis of what you describe. You can beat that drum all you want, but it flies in the face of the reality too many of us know.
Anyone here read C.S. Lewis? Here is a passage toward the end of the chapter on "Sexual Morality" from his book "Mere Christianity."
“I want to make it as clear as I possibly can that the centre of Christian morality is not here. If anyone thinks that Christians regard unchastity as the supreme vice, he is quite wrong. The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. All the worst pleasures are purely spiritual: the pleasure of putting other people in the wrong, of bossing and patronizing and spoiling sport, and back-biting; the pleasures of power, of hatred. For there are two things inside me competing with he human self which I must try to become. They are the Animal self, and the Diabolical self. The Diabolical self is the worse of the two. That is why a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute.”
Worth pondering.
Thank you, Susan. I'm not in all points fond of C.S. Lewis, his Narnia books are a bit too preachy for me in places, but him and Chesterton at least had their priorities straight. That is what I'm wondering all the time: Sure, you can make biblical aruments against queer sex… but why do you have to? I mean, given the state of the world, given all that is wrong, even from a purely Christian perspective, how can you waste any time fighting such a minor detail?
Really, the only reason I can think of is that the bible argument is just a smoke-screen, and that in reality all those homophobes are just totally fixated on their personal horror of icky buggery and it drives them absolutely bonkers to think of it… which they apparently do, continuously.
Yes, FreeFox. Bigotry always strives to find *something* to justify itself. Misuse of religious scripture is no different.
You nailed it, Freefox. Your last paragraph – that’s it. They can’t stand the “ick” factor – OR they are turned on by that “ick” factor and believe that by protesting too much, they will somehow make up for those appalling fantasies swimming around their thoughts.
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