“Am I Seeking the Truth Because I Want to Justify My Sin?”

You don’t call it idolatry when you “revere,” (Really? Not “worship?”) a document, especially an illogical one that contradicts itself at every turn? What exactly do you call it when you put the human church’s interpretation of a series of texts, above the words presumably spoken by Christ Himself? You know, God? That sound like worship to me.

And here’s the thing: you don’t REALLY believe the Bible IS the word of God; if you did you’d be following all of it’s rules, because that’s “what God commands.” So how many prostitutes and mouthy children have you stoned to death? Have you sold all of your possessions and given the money to the poor? You follow only those Biblical rules that the church has told you are important, right? And the church is made up of men.

As I’ve said before, faith is belief without proof, if you had proof, you wouldn’t need faith. Blindly accepting any interpretation of the Bible, traditional or not, is a matter of faith, but I think that faith is misplaced. You are putting your faith in the presumed wisdom of man, not in God. Is that why God gave you a brain? To assume those men are divinely inspired and honestly trying to serve God, and not their own power base? You’d better hope they are, since following their rules has caused untold suffering to God’s children for several millennia. Every word of the Bible should be constantly scrutinized with a critical eye, a sharp conscience, and an understanding of the world in which the words themselves were written. Otherwise it is nothing more than a really lame history book. The Bible was written by men; the mystery within it is holy and worthy of reverence, but the book and its stories are not.

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Brian,
You are mistaken; I despise how people use the Bible. And of course you don’t have a response.

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I concur.

“the mystery within it is holy and worthy of reverence, but the book and its stories are not.”

Truer words have never been spoken.

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Brian, I was not offended, but I was not surprised either. If my comment got under your skin, you might want to wonder why. The “mystery” to which I referred is the divine nature of God. Please acknowledge that you at least believe divinity is an unknowable mystery. You see, I’m having a hard time figuring out what you believe; you keep changing the subject instead of answering direct questions, shifting your positions ever so slightly, and hiding behind you “belief” that the Bible is the word of God. You keep telling people that they have the right to their own opinions about it, but you seem awfully leery of taking a stand and declaring that their opinions are wrong or right. You challenge others’ opinions without stating your own, beyond, “The Bible is the final authority;” being God’s word, it must be true.

So which parts are true and which are false?

Here’s a biblical contradiction for you, grade school level: The harsh, extreme, vindictive OT laws must be followed. Hell is the punishment. Then Jesus comes along and says, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” How does this work? Who punishes the guilty? Which is correct, stone the prostitute or don’t stone the prostitute?

I, like many, have a possible explanation for the “cast the first stone” story, but it requires NOT TAKING IT LITERALLY, it requires interpretation. I won’t bore you with my interpretation because that’s not the point. The point is interpretation is everything in reading the Bible. If you believe every word in the Bible, in plain English, then you believe concepts that are polar opposites. It is simply not logical. That’s why I called the Bible irrational; this is pretty obvious, not rocket science.

I think the point almost everyone here is trying to make is that there are moral interpretations of the Bible, and there are immoral interpretations if it. You yourself referred to “…the sinful heart of men.” The Christian church has been teaching immoral interpretations of the Bible since it was written, and only changes its interpretations when moral people speak up and object to the suffering caused by that immorality. Slavery is the best known example.

What I, for one, would like to know, is this: Is your interpretation moral or immoral? Do your biblical beliefs prevent suffering or do they promote suffering? We all know that you can “justify” any belief by saying it’s in the Bible, that’s why we’re here. Can you justify your beliefs based on morality? Are your beliefs unethical, but “correct” because they’re in the Bible? If you are a mainstream Christian, you are most likely promoting immorality, and doing it in God’s name, because that is what the mainstream Christian church does.

Now I just might piss everybody off: I think mainstream Christians have no business being shocked and appalled at the behavior of Rev. Fred Phelps. It’s pure hypocrisy. Yes I said that.

Phelps believes that homosexuality is an abomination, and that unrepentant gays will go to hell. He goes even farther and condemns the rest of us for our weak willed tolerance of this abomination. According to him, it’s our Christian duty to do whatever it takes to rid the world of this scourge. I give him points for one thing – HONESTY (unless it’s all just a scam, which is perfectly possible.) He waves banners and shouts it from the rooftops. He doesn’t discuss it quietly and with dignified pity and compassion, during Wednesday night Bible study, among friends who are inclined to agree with him. He doesn’t subltely offer his congregation books about how to “cure” it, or how it hurts good, ordinary Christian families. There is nothing subtle about Phelps; his methods are in-your-face, but he and the modern American Christian church, teach EXACTLY THE SAME MESSAGE. The only difference I see is that he shows poor taste by disrupting military funerals.

So what the hell does Brian stand for? You have spent the last few days poking and jabbing, challenging and nitpicking, parrying and feinting. You have employed every standard troll tactic, yet you haven’t made or defended a single point. You have pandered to nearly everyone, almost conceding to agree with them, but with reservations. Yet you haven’t stated those reservations, have you? Why are you here? To show off how well-read you are? (If so, read a few backposts; you’re out of your league.) To stir things up and lead readers into pointless discussions? Do you have something to say? If so, will you just say it already? Otherwise, please leave. Shit or get off the pot.

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I’ve been a baptised, devoted Christian since age 8.

My relationship with Christ whom I visit with every day, who leads my life, trumps any book, any teaching from anyone else. When I have a question, when there seems to be conflicting answers – I take it to the Lord in prayer, and then I LISTEN to Him.

Prayer… where I’m LISTENING, not TELLING God how things will be in my little world. Prayer…where God is teaching me and leading me…and NOT me telling Him where I want to go, or want to believe.

It’s called living by faith, and yup, it’s scary as hell.

I read the Bible, and respect the offerings of the people who wrote it. I DO NOT and can NOT accept it as the final unchangeable Word of God, because it is NOT. It is Man’s interpretation of God, written through the filter of each person’s beliefs, desires, and personal prejudices and fears.

So for you to tell me that a whole group of people are to be discriminated against because an imperfect, man- interpreted document says so….it doesn’t fly.

Love the Lord with all thy heart, might, mind and strength, and thy neighbor as thyself. Love one another.

Discrimination is NOT love. Discrimination is NOT loving thy neighbor as thyself

Our Letterwriter has more love in her little finger, and more humility and grace too for that matter – than either one of you yahoos who come on here preaching discrimination and second class status, because you can’t live by faith!

GO to God. Listen to Him – NOT your own prejudices. Open your heart and mind and let Him lead you! It’s an amazing journey!

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Brian, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Earlier you agreed with Scott that the interpretations we all make of Scripture are very different and challenging when it comes to debate and discussion. Yet when faced with the counter view, something you believe violates God’s Word, you pull out the Bible as evidence, inferring your interpretation is the right one. It seems like you just offer one argument vs the other when it suits you (and we’re back to the self-absorption). Your comments are rarely about gay men and women themselves – they are just about you you you you you you you.

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How DARE you actually tell someone that they despise the Bible and don’t need Jesus Christ when all she was saying was that she doesn’t like how people *use* the Bible? Do you even read? What a horribly personal line to cross, what the fuck is wrong with you that you would say something like that to someone. Your arrogance and conclusions you just drew and actually had the arrogance to offer someone you don’t even know is really sickening.

Before you write it, I don’t care about your intent or what you were *trying* to say. that’s just more about you. Ugh.

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DR,

I didn’t read anywhere in her original post that she didn’t like how pepole use the BIble (that was clearifed later), it read more like an attack on the Bile itself to me. I responded with some emotion DR, I’m not perfect, it just read to me like a smug , sacastic and somewhat disrespectful post of Gods Holy Word.

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Since you deigned to offer a couple of almost substantial opinions, I’ll play a little longer. OK, this part is actually kind of funny – Here’s what I left out of that comment because I thought it was too long: I’ve always said I would join and support a church whose missionaries distributed condoms with their Bibles, and stopped teaching women to submit to immoral men (while praying for God to give those men wisdom and compassion.) Missionaries spend tons of money travelling the world to “save” the most wretchedly poor and oppressed people on earth, and what do they offer? Emotional comfort in their suffering. Not the tools necessary to END their suffering, or to prevent the spread of that suffering, just comfort. (OK yeah, and some food and medicine and a few homes, ’cause if they die too soon it’s a waste of resources.) Christian missionaries cause at least as much suffering through their teachings, as they ever alleviate. Specific example: The AIDS epidemic in Africa. How many missionaries are working in Africa, and how long have they bee there? They’ve known for decades that condoms slow the spread of AIDS, but how many condoms have they given out to prevent it? Add to that the submissive role of women, reinforced by Christian doctrine, and look at the results. Missionaries did not cause the epidemic, but they did nothing to prevent its spread. It took 25 years, but even the pope has finally figured that one out.

{And here’s where I come off like a crazy conspiracy theorist. When viewed as a whole, this is eerily similar to a well known brainwashing technique. Here’s how you win someone’s undying loyalty: You either find someone who’s suffering, or you cause them to suffer. Then you offer them comfort and the promise of aid. You assure them that no matter what “happens” to them, you care about them because they are special. You promise to help them, but you never really deliver. You DO NOT end their suffering, because their pain is the only hold you have over them. You don’t give them the tools they need to walk away from their pain and become independent; their dependence on YOU and what you offer, is absolutely necessary to your success. If you convince your victim that you are the best thing that will ever happen to them, they will follow you to the ends of the earth and believe anything you tell them. So, did the brainwashers learn from the church or did the church learn from the brainwashers?}
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“You just don’t get, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is at the heart.” What, EXACTLY, (since you said it, you might as well explain it) don’t I get? IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ at the the heart of these actions, or rather this inaction? Really? That’s what Jesus wants us to do for (or more accurately, to) the least of His brothers, and therefore to Him? The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not exist in a vacuum, Brian, separate from the real world. A loving heart does not excuse destructive actions. Or inaction. To make a career of “helping those who are suffering” in God’s name, is to make a commitment to do everything IN YOUR POWER to actually help them, to use the tools God gave you. Or it should be. Otherwise, why bother? You can’t claim to be part of the solution when you are contributing to the problem.

And that’s the core of this entire discussion, minutiae, red herrings and nit-picking aside. The Christian church takes a dim view of homosexuality, based on “Scripture,” and turns a blind eye to its members who persecute gays, (unless they do it really blatantly. Bad for the image, ya know.) Then it gets all wide eyed and innocent and says, ” But we love them even though they’re sinners. That’s what Jesus commands.” The Christian church absolutely refuses to take any responsibility for the actions of its members. It refuses to admit that its doctrine is contributing to the anguish of God’s devoted (or otherwise) children.
You are a very scary man, Brian, and you represent exactly the double talking mindset to which we object. It’s NOT all-OK-because-in-the-end-we-will-be-saved. We all agree that salvation is a destination to which we aspire, but in the meantime there is this journey we call life. It’s a gift from God, and we Christians can choose to spend it serving Him by demonstrating our love for His children. Or we can stand in a pulpit talking about God’s love, and when things go south due to some well meaning but perhaps overzealous dumbass, we can say, “That was him, not us. These things happen. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. How very unfortunate….But it’s not OUR fault.”

Christianity is like a garden, a nutrient-rich environment in which all sorts of things can grow. If the gardeners who tend it ignore the weeds, the weeds will take over the whole thing. They won’t completely obliterate the bright flowers, but they will surround them, choke them and isolate them. You Brian, are either a weed or at best, a negligent gardener; your wishy-washy comments obscure which. You are NOT a flower. You offer the flowers nothing but a wee bit of sympathy. Possibly even sincere sympathy.

I get the impression that you don’t even comprehend the whole of what I’ve been saying, so how can you know what I don’t “get?” You claim to be rather uninformed in these matters. Then after we present you with pages and pages of information, both factual and theoretical, you don’t read it thoroughly, you don’t consider the “big picture” of any issue, you don’t stop to even consider whether it might be valid. You immediately take offense over the slightest perceived insult to your (uninformed, by you own admission) beliefs, and your knee-jerk reaction is to attack details that are not essential to this particular subject.

If you are satisfied with your level of knowledge, and wish to remain uninformed, you are reading the WRONG blog. If you want to learn something, keep reading, but stop biting ankles. Nobody here is trying to recruit you into a cult, or deceive you into believing in some doctrine that will send you to hell. We are simply sharing our knowledge and opinions, which are based on our reading, our experiences, and our observation of the world in which we live. And none of us objects to challenging questions; indeed we welcome them. They make us THINK. By all means, contribute and ask questions. Just please stop nagging about irrelevant details, and dragging the conversation away from the subject at hand – the letter from a gay woman who is suffering. Remember her? Some of think her problem is important. Clearly, you don’t. You said, “what matters are that gay people have been hurt by ‘professing Christians’ and actually believe they are beyond hope or unworthy of the free and soveriegn grace of God. THAT is important to me, ” If this really is important to you, why do you continue to pursue a solution that doesn’t work – reminding her that God does love her? We are working to END her suffering and to PREVENT the same suffering in others like her, people who have been convinced BY THE CHURCH that they are unworthy. (And yes, it is the church doing this, because the church IS its members.) Why do you dismiss “gay marriage” and “gay rights” as irrelevant? “…I didn’t know gay marriage was so important to Christianity…” “To some people “gay rights” is their primary issue on here, for me it’s the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” They may not be at the core of the Gospel, but they are certainly at the core of the SOLUTION to how the church hurts gays. Are you interested in solutions? Or is it easier to simply talk about God’s love?
“Jesus loves you,” is not a solution.

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The spiritual does not exist in isolation from the material. There can be no hope of helping a man or woman with his/her journey along the Way which leads to eternal salvation if we do not ensure his/her temporal salvation in the meantime. The Life eternal lives on through the life of this very moment.

The only reason Jesus didn’t solve world hunger long ago was that he would have had to overthrow the powers of this world that were oppressing people in order to make that a reality, but the time was not yet come that his Kingdom should be established upon the earth. However, knowing Jesus, he’s surely at work accomplishing such things even as we speak. The work of providing recompense for sin was finished at the cross, but eternal life consists in more than merely forgiveness.

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Brian,
You’re right.. You don’t get me. Every conclusion you made about my statements is incorrect. I don’t know how many more ways I can say it, so here’s the oversimplified version: Many Christians use God’s word and Christian doctrine in their efforts to serve God by helping His children. Many Christians use God’s word and Christian doctrine their an efforts to serve God by hurting His children. These are the only two choices I’m currently addressing. Individual Christians choose to help or hurt God’s children, mostly based on what they are taught by other individual Christians, usually within an established group of like-minded Christians. Got it so far? Good. I object to any person, any Christian, or any organization that chooses to cause suffering, chooses NOT to prevent or alleviate suffering, and that uses God’s word, God’s name or the teachings of God’s church, to justify that choice.

Now read it again.

Yes, I do get rather verbose, and I sure as hell don’t organize my thoughts as well as do Matthew, DR, Christy, and many others on this forum. I apologize to everyone for some of my points being tangential or less than obvious. It’s a weakness in my writing and I’m working on it.

And speaking of tangential, I knew you would jump on my “tons of money” comment. Are you so naive that you honestly assumed I was referring to the lifestyles of individual missionaries? Not the billions of dollars spent on all Christian missions around world? Even for the admittedly uninformed, that’s a bit of a stretch. I suspect you are slightly more combative than you are naive.

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Suz and Matthew

Thanks for your posts, first Suz, sorry it took so many posts, but now I see your point and understand, forgive me for my misunderstanding. Matthew same to you, it can take awhile before I clearly get it, you have both been quite patient with me. I want to hold hands and sing Koom-Bye-Ya now, LOL!! Let’s have DR join in too…..

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You actually have lost the distinction between God and Bible, inasmuch as you cannot tell the words of the one as unified by your own interpretive process from the unified Word of the other. The Biblical text is by no means Divine, even if the author is. How can you claim what is written at the hands of men (or the apparatuses of machines in the present age) as the Word of God? The Word of God is not written, is not made, but begotten. Are you implying that the Word of the unchanging God is not flesh even today? Is the Gospel not of the flesh but rather a certain sort of Gnosticism? Now, a better translation might be “Meaning” instead of “Word”: It is the Logos who is with God in the beginning and who is God, but the rhema is of that which is created (through the Logos no less). And though the true Word is both Logos and Rhema, and both God and Man, the essences remain unconfused. The substance of your precious Bible *is NOT divine*!

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But if your standard for worshipping and for pleasing God comes anywhere but from God Himself (as when it comes from your Biblical interpretation), then you separate God into the god in whom is all authority (the Bible) and the god worthy of all praise (Father/Son/Holy Spirit). And what exactly is the worship of God, *according* to the Bible?

“I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Rom. 12:1-2)

“Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” (James 1:27)

There’s nothing about preaching (which, for whatever reason, has become the main and central component of the typical Protestant “Worship Service”) “God’s Word” for the sake of those whose understanding of Truth might otherwise (and surely diabolically, due to their fallen nature) be led to differ from my own, or anything like that at all.

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Matt,

Our standard of worship can only come from God himself, you claim, yet you quote from the Bible…..that’s good.

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