
(In my book about LGBT Christians I’ll be including this letter, which I got in last week. If you can come away from reading this still believing that it’s impossible for a person to be both fully gay and fully Christian, then all I can say is that I hope your lobotomy didn’t leave behind too unsightly a scar.)
Dear Mr. Shore,
I was once a proud African Methodist Episcopal Zion (AME Zion) Christian, the evangelical son of an AME Zion preacher, ready to answer the call of a life in ministry. Once I claimed the faith of my father as my own, I felt a denominational identity was too constricting. I simply called myself an evangelical Christian. This, despite the fact that I was tremendously hurt and confused by the near daily abuse I suffered at the hands of Christian school classmates, who taunted me with “faggot,” “girly,” “gay-gay,” etc.
Clearly, everyone else had figured out my sexual orientation before I had. When I thought about the fact that, unlike my 13-year-old counterparts, I didn’t seem to be interested in girls, that in fact I longed to be close to and have sex with boys, I immediately reasoned, “But I can’t be gay, because Christians aren’t gay, and I’m a Christian!”
It was just a phase. I couldn’t be gay.
This “phase” lasted several years (despite desperate pleas to an almighty God who would no doubt free me of this “sin” that I wanted no part of anymore than He did). After struggling with a four-year addiction to gay porn, in my senior year of college I was forced to acknowledge that this must be more than a mere phase. I did what any good evangelical Christian would: I sought help. After a night of binging on porn, I tapped out the words “gay and Christian” on the keyboard, and came across Exodus International, a ministry dedicated to helping men and women overcome “unwanted same-sex attractions.”
Initially, discovering Exodus gave me hope and encouragement. I went along under the notion that this was no phase, but that it was manageable, and conquerable. I dove into ministry: Bible study founder/leader in college, president of the Christian group at pharmacy school, volunteering with the youth ministry at my local Assembly of God church.
Yet the more I explored my sexual attractions, the more dismayed I became. I fervently desired a Godly relationship with a woman, to be a dad; I yearned to live the evangelical, American dream.What I could not shake, though, was the debilitating loneliness that overshadowed every aspect of my life—despite a loving family, a wonderful girlfriend, a supportive ex-gay community, an adept counselor, great accountability partners, service to others, leadership in ministry, a local church community, incessant prayer, indomitable determination, and innumerable ex-gay resources. As I became increasingly aware of my unchanging orientation, the insufficient satisfaction of opposite gender intimacy, and the idea that this meant a lifetime of misery without true companionship, my depression and anxiety grew, until I was ready for God to just take me home.
I simply did not want to exist anymore, and begged God to have mercy on me by ending this.
I wish I could say that my Christian community responded in Christ-like ways to me when I revealed my “struggles with same-sex attraction.” And there surely were those who incarnated Christ to me. But more commonly the responses ranged from indifference to muted disgust (and everything in between).
In one pivotal encounter, I had lunch with the youth pastor at my Assembly of God church. I was sharing with him my disappointment with the way in which my revelation was received by the other young adults in the church with whom I was desperate to bond (after all, the ex-gay mantra was that “healing comes by forging healthy, same-sex relationships”). I bemoaned the fact that some of those in whom I had confided were nonplussed, some cool but silent (leaving me to wonder where I actually stood with them), and yet others took it upon themselves to preach to me, thinking that an “encouragement.”
What was my pastor’s response to my discouragement? He spent ninety minutes chiding me for being upset, and preaching to me about the evils of homosexuality. The obvious offense (treating me in a manner expressly as I had just complained about being treated by others) was only magnified by the fact that he was well aware of my dad’s ordination in ministry, my years spent in Bible classes at Christian schools, and my extensive knowledge of scripture. Perhaps most damaging of all was his insistence that I no longer serve with our church youth group (which he had originally mandated prior to our lunch date). I cannot express how belittled and useless I felt. My love for God, my gifts, my talents counted for naught so long as I had difficulties dealing with my sexuality. I left lunch that day feeling more disparaged than when we started.
I was never an evangelical after that. In fact, here I stand, six years later, and there are times when it is difficult for me to associate myself with Christianity at all. After hearing my protracted story, religious and irreligious people alike often ask me in befuddled exasperation: “How are you still a Christian? Why do you still go to church?!” And frankly, I have yet to articulate a satisfactory answer. As best I can tell though, it is rooted in my abiding love for Jesus. I am compelled by the life and teachings of Jesus. I strive to live The Way of Jesus, and to bring the Kingdom of Peace and Love here to earth. And yet every day it is a struggle to hold onto that shred of faith, when so many other self-proclaimed Christians adamantly declare my apostasy and condemnation to hell for daring to love in the way that comes naturally to me. (The more enlightened folks are civil enough to quietly suggest I’m “not in God’s will,” and to let me know that they are praying for me to see the light and truly know Him.)
I profusely thank God for the emerging church I discovered around the time of that fateful lunch with my pastor. Up until that point, I had a subtle but nagging twist in my gut at every church I had ever attended. It was from experiencing such love and comfort at this new church that I was finally able to verbalize what I felt all those years: that I was not safe and accepted as I was. At last, I was blessed to have been led to a community of believers who would walk alongside me, instead of ahead of me; who would ask questions with me, instead of dictating beliefs to me. It was within this community that I was able to salve the wounds of bitterness and jadedness that had pervaded my soul.
I don’t know that I’ll ever be an evangelical again. I’m not sure if I can even maintain the identity “Christian,” given all the baggage that seems to accompany the word. All I know is that I hope for the day when I can be seen by the Church as being equal to all others in the Body of Christ, and worthy of sharing my gifts in faithful service—not despite my sexuality, but because I am a gay Christian, beloved of God.
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?















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I read the letter and all comments… Is it really anyone business? This is the authors walk with Christ and his walk with Christ alone. Being gay is not a sickness or a disease that it’s going to rub off on us. I thought we are supposed to be a community, brothers and sisters praising God together, loving one another per Jesus Creed. I’ve talked to a few of my fellow brothers and sisters about how they feel about homosexuality and being gay. It saddens me that 99% of homosexuals feel shunded from the church. That because of sexual orientation they are labeled homosexuals and not just people. I’m sorry honey. You are not a homosexual Christian. You are my brother in Christ. You are a proud Christian. A true Christian. A true Christian loves Christ, teaches the word, lives by the word, and repents when they sin, does everything they can to stop the sin. I’m not talking about homosexuality unless you consider it a sin. The rest of you can quote scripture and try your hardest to prove to the reasonable that God hates this man. It’s not going to work. I know that God did not make trash, he made us beautiful unique people with many awesome gifts. To shund this man for something that is none of our business is not Christ like and you should be ashamed of yourselves!!!
The Bible calls sodomy between 2 men a sin from begining to end, (and sins are to be repented of – ‘turned away from’ — meaning its possible to do so or God woudn’t command it in the first place). However some people come along, want to make the practice of that particular type of sex the centerpiece of their life and wear it as an identity so they can insist its not something that CAN be repented of thus absolve themselvels of all responsibilityy for choosing to act on those desires. (Desires that God can extinguish). And this blog spends half is space as a cheering section for that.
When I was a devout Christian, and in high school, there were several guys that I liked, and had an attraction toward. See, I’m male and for some reason, this desire to like girls AND guys apparently made me an enemy of Jesus™, Morality™, and Righteousness™. I had never told a soul, and the reason I knew I was wrong(!) was thanks to the many pastors who condemned the very idea, as I sat in the church pew, they’d rail against the degradation of morality and humanity because we weren’t castigating “the gays”.
I was torn, because I really, truly, with all my heart, loved Jesus, and the idea that I could be the one holding the whip and driving the nails into his hands because of my attraction toward people of the same sex just broke my heart and tore down my spirit. I couldn’t imagine how that hurt Jesus, but all I knew was that there was a consensus and I was on the wrong side.
I even started believing it to the point where I figured that if I were extra good, extra forward in my service to Christ, I could make up for the sin I couldn’t get rid of, no matter how hard I prayed. I listened to Christian music, attended prayer meetings, started prayer services in school (before the day began), and become UltraChristian, the guy who could answer any question you had about faith. I studied the Bible until I wore down the gilded edges of the pages.
During this time, I kept reading about the passages where it was supposed to be wrong to be gay, supposed to be a sin, an affront to god, and I simply couldn’t find it. Oh, I found the “clobber” verses, but contextually, they didn’t make sense. See, I was an avid reader, and I could read anything you put in front of me. I had been able to do so since I was a very small child. Reading fascinated me, and so I took to it like a duck to water.
As I said, the context of the verses didn’t make sense. The preachers quoting the verses never went into the surrounding passages, and it didn’t take long for me to figure out why: the passages weren’t about moral living or sinful behavior. They were referencing specific contexts; situations where certain rules had to be laid down to effect some kind of change on a community or social level. I found that 99% of those passages didn’t apply to any modern person, because the cultures (and even the landscape!) surrounding them had changed.
It was no coincidence that shortly after that, I stopped believing in the accepted definition of Hell, and even the Rapture fell under my studied eye, and I ended up disregarding it’s validity as well. What was I doing differently? I was applying critical thought and informed weight to each passage. The more I studied the history of the Bible, the more I realized that the modern Evangelical church had made a serious miscalculation. I started explaining (not coercing or forcing) this to my Evangelical conservative friends, and one by one they stopped talking to me.
The more I studied and found new evidences that something in the modern accepted Ecumenism of the Evangelical community had gone sour somewhere, the more isolated I became. It got to the point where I started consulting with Rabbis instead of pastors, because they would be the only ones willing to give me the time of day. The church was wrong, so very wrong, on so many things that they held dear, and I finally, FINALLY, broke free of the clawing guilt that my orientation somehow made me evil or wrong. I wasn’t a sinner, it wasn’t a sin, and THAT took some doing, because even in the back of my mind that vicious cycle of “you’re disobeying God in the name of your own flesh!” kept shouting. See, kids, it is a vicious cycle, and it’s perfect for making you doubt yourselves, making you hate yourselves.
Apparently, if you ask too many questions or “the wrong” questions, you’re letting satan get into your mind. What a sure fire way to make sure you stay scared and submissive to the authority of your church, don’t you think? Well, I decided that the God of the New Testament wasn’t a God of fear and retribution, but a God of faith and mercy. I felt that if such a God would hate me for being who I was, that God made the mistake, not me. What kind of Father hates his child for being human? It just didn’t make sense.
Of course, now I’m an atheist, so it holds no weight at all for me anymore, but I do understand, completely, what some of you are going through, and I wish you the very best in coming to terms with your heart, your mind, and your faith. You can have all of these things and they not conflict. Don’t worship the false god of close minded bigotry. Realize that a God of love can’t possibly hate you, or he’s not a God of love. It really is that simple. “Unconditional” means just that. Jesus never said “I died for the straight folks”. Jesus was supposed to save all of mankind, not just the pious and judgmental, though they do indeed need saving, if from nothing else, than at least from their own arrogance.
All my love,
Dk211
You are created, you are loved, you are accepted. Check out our website aimed at sharing God’s agape love with the GLBTQI community. God adores every one of us
http://www.accepted.co.nz
That’s a sad story far too much like my own, although I really dont have much of a spiritual life left. Id advise people like myself, the transgendered, to get away from Christians.
I’ve been invited to several affirming churches, and I had a dream after the first invite that told me NEVER to go under any circumstance!
Not sure what the danger was…maybe the coke they snort will kill u?
March on!
Hello everyone=) I am a 30 year old lesbian liveing with my life partner of 4 years. I was raised in the christian faith and went to christian school for most of my life. So of course i was raised to beleive that this was a disgusting sin against God. Although I have always been girly and enjoy being girly and was raised to be prim and proper. I have had a attraction to woman since i was 7 years old. For me it wasnt a attraction based on lust although I did experement sexualy with the same sex in my teens. For me it is more about the connection I have with the same sex that i do not have for men. I offten wounder If all children are innocent then how could they have these feelings at a early age? But then I realize that children are tempted with many of the same things adults are tempted with like greed, jelousy,ect… Then could it be possible we are tempted with homosexuality at a early age??? And that I have failed Gods test? I have so many questions and its as if not one of them can be answered. For many years I have turned away from my faith in God because of the shame I felt for being gay. Now the older I become the more i have a need for God in my life. Their are scriptures in the Bible that condem same sex but yet their is nothing about if loveing gay relationships are wrong. Why is this?? Am I just justifing the way I live because I dont want to change? Are we in danger about feeling at peace with our sexuality because we can not over come it? Or could it truily be that Love is never wrong?? Im terrified and take my soul very seriously!(As do most people) I do not want to be wrong in this life and be tortured in the next….. I LOVE my girlfreind sooo very much and couldnt imagine my life without her but if it is Gods will for me to choose him above all others then wouldnt it be wrong to continue something that could possible jepordise my relationship with Jesus Christ?? Some one with insight into the Bible please help me with this…………..Thanx=)
stephanie,
I’m not gay but I don’t believe for a moment that a loving God would put you into a situation where you experienced a “sin” that you couldn’t escape. It’s not logical.
A lot of gay men and women have pointed to a resource called Gay Christian alliance where you have people going through the exact things you’ve experienced and sounds like you are continuing to experience. It sounds like they are enormously helpful (so are people on this blog as well).
http://www.gaychristian.net/index.php?
You can be gay and have a relationship with Jesus. You can still be “saved” and be in love with your wife/girlfriend. There just isn’t any way God would exclude you. He is not cruel, this isn’t one of those “It’s just a mystery of God” kind of thing. He wouldn’t risk you knowing Him and loving Him and giving your life to Him. You’re profoundly OK. Much love to you.
Thank you for your kind comments DR. =) I soo want to beleive everything you said because it brings me comfort but still I feel I need to be sure of this through his word. I wish their was something in the Bible that gave me comfort as well with who I am. Thank you for the website info i will definetly check it out…… Much LOVE to You as well………………………….
I will pray pray pray that the Holy Spirit leads you, will you let us know? I think He will.
No joke, I don’t feel so strange now, it’s like we shared a life. I was raised a Mormon, told I could not be much of anything but a house wife. I never realized my attraction towards women until after being called a lesbian most of my young life, even by my family, my family did this because I showed no interest in men.
I am a bi-sexual woman married to a bi-sexual man and we are Christian…not Mormon, thank God.
I dont believe we have to identify ourselves as “Christian” to prove to anyone, even God, where we stand. How we love and treat others is whats important
@ Cat Rennolds. Love your “Christs Message” comment.
Speaking from an Agnostic point of view, the hypocrisy seen in the comments almost makes the letter not even worth reading.
Not trying to be mean here, just honest.
Kiwi, for examples?
Romans 1:24-32, 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:8-10, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 I’m telling you if you just read these scriptures you’ll see why homosexual activities are just a sin. It’s like making the claim that an alcoholic is a Christian. It doesn’t work.
Wait…now an alcoholic can’t be a Christian?
Nate, you need to spend a whole bunch of time reading here on John’s blog before you start up with that tire argument yet again. Please? There is sooo much to be said about it, from various perspectives, and you need to learn about a topic before you start speaking publicly about it. Your comment about alcoholics shows how ignorant of the real meaning about Christianity you are. Spend a few hours here – or a lot of hours here – reading both John’s posts and the comments that follow.
THEN join the conversation. Deal?
I have a strong suspicion that these people are fake – there’s just no way these people are real who do these kind of drive-by comments and then turn tail running, which is kind of awesome because comments like Nate’s represent what actual people do believe. So the mindset that some do hold and vote out of and parent their children out of with such abuse get put into the public dialogue (of which John’s blog is a huge part). So it’s awesome.
But Nate, by chance if you’re serious? Your theology is responsible for gay children getting kicked out of their homes as well as gay kids killing themselves at 4x more the rate than other kids. Good luck living with that.
To read this letter, look past all the problems and discrimination the author has been through and to add to it, that is simply unchristian and embarrasses me. Did you not read the part where the author said they studied the Bible thoroughly? These verses are no surprise and neither is your stupid comment.
Did you mean to direct your comment to me?
No, sorry for not being specific. I meant it to be for Mr. The Great.
Kiwi, I understand you completely. Two things that have immensely bothered me of late, is the religious arrogance of Western Christians (“I’ve got it all together, and your a dirty rotten sinner” type of outlook) and the loose and lazy approach to interpreting the Bible, which you have just seen, as evidenced by your post. These are actually opposite sides of a spectrum.
Christianity as a religion comes in many different forms and varieties and opinion, and I’d prefer to not talk about it. I, for one, do not want to be closely associated with religious Christianity (although I will love those who are, as well as those like you, who are willing to say, “I don’t know what is true, but I’m willing to question proposed truth.”)
What you see, is the Bible. And if I am going to believe anything, I want a foundation. The Bible is one foundation. The Bible is a final authority. If it is not, everything is open to interpretation and the whims and preferences of culture and people. It then loses significance and transcendence.
Based on the assumption that the Bible is the authoritative word of the Living God, above all other authorities and ideas (which takes faith, but not blind faith), we can then allow the Bible to interpret and explain itself. We then submit ourselves under its authority (and under God’s authority).
It would appear that many of those commenting on this site are actually not speaking from this point of view. It would appear that the Word of God is not their final authority, and Jesus is not their supreme treasure. I may be wrong, but the comments simply appear that way.
The Bible clearly says that we are all corrupt and have rebelled against the living God. He, in turn, has chosen to let us continue in rebellion against Him. This rebellion has brought about many bad and broken things in this world. In other words, we live in a broken world.
God has also given us desires, and these desires are good. However, we have rebelled against God, and turned our desires toward lesser things. Thus, some of our desires are corrupted.
Christ has come and bridged this broken gap. He has made a way for the broken to be made whole. He has made a way for His enemies to be made His friends. He has made a way for the rebels to sit at the table of the King.
As I said earlier, there are to extremes to the “Christian” perspective. The middle ground is this: I am a rebellious, unloving, ungrateful, hateful sinner, enslaved by sin. Christ has set me free from my bondage, opened my eyes, and showed me the loveliness of Himself. I have believed and accepted His offer of forgiveness. Now, despite my rebellion, God has accepted me. He looks on Christ Jesus, the perfect Image of the Invisible God, and Christ Jesus says, “He’s mine. He’s clothed in my righteousness.” Thus, God when God looks at me, he sees Christ, because Christ has covered me.
That being said, I have no grounds to brag and be arrogant. We are all as broken as the next person. I have been shown mercy by a loving God who doesn’t want me to continue in destructive rebellion against Himself. I want to extend Christ’s offer of Mercy and forgiveness to you. I am not perfect. I am still sadly broken. But I want to know Christ, and I want to walk as a new man.
For your supreme and eternal joy in Jesus,
Josiah
It’s kind of important which foundation. There’s even a parable about it.
In this case, you’re choosing to base your entire life around the infallibility of the Bible. The Bible contradicts itself so manifestly and often that it’s not possible to honorably hold an educated belief that it’s the perfect repository of God’s word. The only possibilities are to refuse to consider the evidence and remain willfully ignorant, or to ignore the evidence, and thus live a lie.
Forcing yourself to believe something you know not to be true breaks you all through until there is no truth left in you.
God, not the Bible, is the true foundation. God revealed himself to human beings on earth. Some of them wrote about it. They wrote as human beings, inspired by God yes, but nevertheless they wrote with ink that fades, on paper that rots, in the best words they could find with their flawed brains. The trick is to know God, the true and unchanging, from these words. It’s like listening to evidence at a trial – some people are believable, some are not, but despite everything, most of the time it’s possible to see through the distortions to the truth of what happened.
In fact that’s why it’s a “Testament.” Like testimony.
I love the heart this author has and am so thankful you shared it with us, John. Nowadays when someone asks me if I’m a Christian, my first response is, “it depends on what you mean by Christian” – because the truth is, if the asker bills himself a ‘Christian’ and behaves like a self-righteous, arrogant, judgmental buffoon, I am most certainly not going to say, “yes, I’m like you.” I love Jesus and am humbled to have Him in my life. I don’t need to be labeled in order to love Him — or for someone else to deem that I do. I’m glad this author has found a similar peace. I, too am a blogger, writing about The You Evolution™ in and through your relationships. I’d love to share a 3-part blog series I did entitled, “When being gay isn’t always so gay”. Parts I & II were written by me, a heterosexual female, married to the same man for 18 years. Part III was written by a wonderful guest author, who is a gay male, in a committed relationship with the same man for 19 years: http://www.donnasmaldone.com/category/gay-relationships/ “To Love!!”
Actually, there is no scientific evidence that one is born gay OR that it is chosen. Some day we can hope that the answer will be discovered. BUT, until then, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? Why should it matter what one’s sexual orientation is? It’s NO ONE’S BUSINESS what you do with a consenting adult when the doors and closed and the lights are off!!!
John, come to a Unitarian Universalist church and stay a Christian AND be accepted for exactly who you are! Sound too good to be true? It’s true!
Thanks! But I didn’t write this letter.
What, you’re not born gay!! Dirk, you’re not going to chime in here?
Brian? Shut up.
It’s the hostility framed within that sugary-sweet christian coating that is so deeply unsettling. But there may not be the capacity there to understand.
True, DR, so true. And I apologize for my rudeness.
Wait. No, I don’t. Brian needs to stop that kind of childish nonsense, and the only way he can stop it, it appears, is to stop talking altogether. I love that he tried to call a truce with Dirk, then pulls this crap. Sorry, but his tired justification of his brand of Christianity’s hatred is getting very, very old.
No need to apologize, sister. I see all the same stuff.
Your response was not rude at all compared to the sarcastic comment.
It is so funny how you can dish out all manner of insulting words to me and I get just the slightest bit sarcastic and I’m told to shut-up, I’m rude and childish. I tried for a truce with Dirk and apologized but he didn’t respond in the affirmative. Fine, his true colors shine.
Brian, I think they expect more love, compassion and understanding and less judgment from Christians. Just a guess.
Brian, I shall continue to “dish out insulting words” as long as you continue your holier-than-thou deconstruction of other people’s personal spiritual journeys. You don’t get to decide how others interpret Scripture. You just don’t.
I don’t even care if you never acknowledge that you might be wrong – but one day you’re going to have to lose the certainty that you are absolutely correct.
A truce in the sense that the Nazis pretended to offer the Germans who were Jews that they would relocated them in Palistine?
Here’s a better idea. You conservative Christians stop beating, raping, torturing, murdering and making life hell on earth in every way you can for gays, lesbians and the transgender.
Brian, The beliefs you hold are contributing to a mindset out there that hurts gay men and women – we’ve all shown you this a thousand different ways a thousand different times and you just refuse to listen to it. You refuse to consider any of it in any meaningful way. And as a result, the ways that you’ve spoken and continued to speak to Dirk – who’s a victim of your beliefs – is reprehensible. Yet all you can do is continue to focus on your feelings.
The truth Brian is that there are a lot of people who are quite angry with you and others like you who believe in the ways that you do and are simply saying so. You have to be able to take the heat if you’re going to believe that same -sex marriage, for example, is wrong – that hurts people. Be willing to face the consequences of your belief from those who are dealing with that hurt. Or most importantly like Dirk, feeling it. I’m kind of bewildered that you don’t get this.
But one more thing – John has earned my trust and my respect. It’s clear to me that he believes in you and wants the best for you and I’m glad you continue to stay in this. It takes a lot of guts. I’m going to trust the Holy Spirit has you here for a reason and I really do pray for the Grace to hear what you are here to learn. And I also hope and pray that our anger over the hurt that your views (on homosexuality) have caused wouldn’t detract you from the message.
Please remember that I know what you’re going through on this forum, I’ve been where you are, on the other side of rage – even hatred and certainly contempt. I was held responsible for the actions of others, for not doing enough to stop them. I was hostile and defensive with the suggestion that I was hurting anyone – I just wanted good things for people! I was furious and sick to my stomach and being so misunderstood.
For me, it was shocking and painful but it did wake me up in ways that being kind to me did not. I really am rooting the same will be for you. You seem like a man who really does love Jesus and you want to serve him.
Brian, John’s page attracts people who want to have a legitimate discourse, a safe place where they can tell their story, and discuss difficult and important issues…not see who can score the most snarky points and best zingers. There are plenty of other pages out there if that is what you seek. While I, and others who have spoken to Dirk, find the frequent anger in his comments also less than helpful and the broad brush strokes less than accurate, I understand why his angry. Your approach with Dirk, if it is your intent to point him to the Christ you claim or show him that you aren’t like the people with whom he is angry, is counter productive. You have only worked to reinforce the stereotypical view of Conservative Christians. The passive aggressive stuff has no place here.
Christy,
I was hoping that was the case, but this blog for most people is a place to share stories, thoughts, ideas from like minded people and if people post a thought, idea or opinion that is different, they’re hateful and homophobic. If I had made a post and claimed there was no scientific evidence one is born gay, I would have been on the receiving end of one Dirk’s or others tirade for sure and you all know it.
I attempted to engage Dirk about his rage, anger, and broad generality making, as has John and VJ and others. He’s not been open to receiving what we had to offer and so I think we accept where he is and have moved on.
Brian there are a lot of people who’ve been really generous to you. And a lot of us who’ve been angry with you and you’ve also been angry – you’re angry at those who support “Obamacare” for example, you feel angry with a lot of what is happening in this country right now. And there’s an added layer of anger to those who’ve seen firsthand, what your beliefs about homosexuality do to kids in particular, but also our family and friends. And that anger can actually be an education if you want it to, not all of our beliefs are going to be welcome certainly and persecution for our faith actually does exist. Is it persecution in this circumstance? I’d say it’s more the consequences of what you believe about same-sex marriage, etc. But I’m confident we’re all going to work through it, I really am.
The reason John permits us free reign here is to encourage productive discussion.
You, Brian, have done more to support my position that conservative Christians are hateful, deceitful people who desire nothing more than to make life for gays, lesbians and the transgender quite literally a hell on earth.
What further response is needed, else to note Q.E.D. (that means quod erat demonstrandum, as you so obviously regard everyone here who disagrees with you as either stupid or illiterate or both.)
Dirk,
No I don’t make such claims about people who have different opinions than I do. How am I hateful Dirk, I apologized to you asked for a truce and you blew it off and I’m the hateful one? My desire for all people – regardless of sexual orientation – is to point them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. With you most of your posts is your anger to conservative Christians in general, name calling to me in particular and claiming all conservative Christians are homophobic, hateful, murderous, commit torture, deceitful with a primary goal to make life to the GLBT community a hell on earth. If it wasn’t for these hateful nazi-like conservative Christians everyone in America would affirm that same gender sex is natural and normal and support same sex marriage. Conservative Christians are what’s wrong with America.
Brian, it’s really extremely simple. You insist that you want all people to find Jesus. That is lovely (aside from the fact that many people have no desire to change the path of their own faith, but that’s a different conversation.).
You then insist on adherence to your one particular interpretation of the Bible. You say you don’t, that it’s open to different interpretations, but then turn around and remind us that the must interpret it “correctly.” When you discuss the “liberal interpretation of the Bible,” your insinuation is that it is wrong. You bristle when someone points out how other Christians believe that *your* interpretation, the conservative, evangelical interpretation, might be the one that is wrong. Oh, no. That can’t be.
But in that version, gay people are broken sinners without access to God unless they denounce and ignore that core piece of their very being. And every time someone points to a different way of interpreting a verse or passage that might point to acceptance, you “correct” them.
Yet you can’t figure out for the life of you why you keep getting called out. I’m not sure anyone can help you understand, until you pull the blinders off yourself.
Mostly. But Brian hasn’t said we don’t have access to God. Unlike most of the conservative Christians I know, he’s said repeatedly that God’s love is for everyone who sincerely seeks it, regardless of orientation. That you CAN be gay and Christian. It’s nice that he hasn’t run screaming yet. It’s nice that I’m not an abomination before the Lord. It’s a start. It’s way more than a lot of them are doing.
Cat, you have so much integrity and I love the way you are in everyone’s corner, you help me get myself in check. Thank you. xoxo
wow, really? Okay…..total side note, but thank you!! I thought I was just a wuss. My husband calls me a waffle. I never thought about ALWAYS being in everyone’s corner as being integral in and of itself…….Of course, he’s also the one who taught me that bigots deserve our tolerance too.
I don’t experience wanting the best for everyone as being a wuss. You remind us of the love we’ve been given at our absolute worst and how that can translate into love for people who harm us and the world. I’m a big Harry Potter nerd (hello, I am a grown up, scary) but one of my favorite quotes is: “It takes tremendous courage to stand up to our enemies. But even more courage to stand up to our friends.”
You are right about Cat, totally, DR. I don’t see her as a wuss at all, but as a someone with a kinder heart than my own.
My hope for Brian is that he will finally be able to see the disconnect in continually saying that God loves everyone, but only the ones who follow one particular interpretation of the Bible get to know Him. To him, that seems to make sense.
And I’m also a total HP nerd, btw – there are many quotes from those books that describe a life of courage and grace – I can only hope to live up to a few of them, in my own little Muggle way . . .
Blushing madly. Also an HP fan, but the books, not the movies. I actually don’t much like favorite books being turned into movies, it infringes on my imagination. Plus with the new special effects, they give me migraines and make me motion-sick. sniff.
Even assuming that the homosexual orientation is a sin, all this means is that some people are subjected to temptations that heterosexuals are not.
Does this mean that heterosexuals are some how spiritually superior because they are spared some temptations?
Or, to ring the corollary, were we to assume that being gay is a sin, then are heterosexuals so weak, they can not be permitted to even try to grapple with it?
I like that, Jack.
With all due respect Brian, I honestly can’t think of another prominent part of our culture here in America that’s promoting these messages with such financial backing and organization and conservative christians. Muslims are, certainly, they do believe that homosexuality is wrong. So do very conservative Jews. Do they have groups that are lobbying congress and raising millions of dollars? Not that I’m aware of, they’re pretty small in population.
I’ve tried in the spirit of trying to be objective to come up with other groups but I just can’t think of anyone else beyond conservative christianity that activitely promotes the messages that homosexuality is against God’s plan, it’s bad for kids to hear about it in public schools and getting married should not be legal.
And you, Dirk, have done more to get Brian on the defensive and keep him there than anybody else on this blog. It makes it look like you don’t WANT him to ever have a change of heart. Like you’ve picked him to be the poster boy for “Conservative Christian of the Year” just because none of the rest of them will stick around for you to holler at.
Brian’s not basically a hater. He does get snarky when he feels like he, personally, is being picked on. I don’t AGREE with him about gay marriage, and I get that he is missing the point. He’s also performed some remarkable mental contortions so he can keep missing the point. Stop helping him do it.
cat,
I truly appreciate your ability to see the good in even the devil. For over 30 years, I tried to work with conservative Christians.
The day this spring they threatened my parents was the day I realized that they hate us because they want to hate us.
With every new suicide of a child or teen, with every new statement by any of the leading Republican candidates for president, with ever new affirmation of their goal to lead Uganda into murdering our brothers and sisters there who can’t just hop on a plane and leave, my belief that they do this out of sheer hatred grows.
I had an experience yesterday. My husband and I are visiting some relations out in the Rocky Mountain West. A pleasant time, though the signs that this is a depression and not simply a recession are showing up even out West. We stopped to have lunch at a truck stop in very conservative Wyoming.
There, just over lunch, we encountered two cases of people begging.
Begging.
In America.
In one case, it was three kids and their dog. The other, a family whose truck had broken down, couldn’t afford to eat but asked if they could come in out of the sun (another scorcher, yesterday) while they waited for help.
This is the reality for which we all have to answer. The roots are to be found in the greed of all of us, even if so much of the worst damage has been done by conservative Christians, the Tea Party, who now hold the Republican party hostage.
I don’t ‘rage’ at Brian for being one of those people on such issues – true, I disagree with him and, sadly, capitalism is proving that he was wrong and us thar’ kenyan-socialist-fascist-commie-pinko-Democrats were right. The root is the greed of all of us in America, not just conservative Christians.
The murder, rape, beating, torture and persecution of gays, lesbians and the transgender, however, lies directly, and all but exclusively at the doorstep of the conservative Christians. The situation is identical in its potential for exploding into mass-murder with Germany in the late 1920s.
Bad things happen when good people turn away. Brian is not a good person, he is hateful and has found a way to couch his hatred in language which makes him seem as though this is all just a pleasant, academic discussion.
It isn’t. This link is a good example of just what Brian is supporting.
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/07/frothy-mix-attacks-tim-gill.html
I just want to hug you and make it all go away…..I KNOW what the conservative church is doing. Daily I deal with IRL friends and family who cope with this. I follow this in the larger world, for obvious reasons, not wanting to wake up one morning in a concentration camp for sexual, religious or political purification. I am outraged and I am terrifed, and I don’t like to think what happens if they get the support they’re after. I am not arguing that “They” are haters; by which I mean, the haters.
But I don’t have the evidence that Brian is one. Now, obviously I can’t tell for certain online if Brian believes what he’s saying, or is playing everybody. But firstly, Brian’s rhetoric departs in several specifics from the party line. Secondly, his writing skill doesn’t seem to indicate he’s capable of perpetrating that level of deceit. I’m not saying it can’t be done, or that it isn’t done, I’m saying HE isn’t doing it.
What I am saying is, the leaders of this group are playing on the natural tendency of human beings to demonize what they don’t understand. To be afraid of the Other. They’re deliberately whipping up the mob by making GLBT the big, scary enemy. And they’re deliberately whipping YOU into a frenzy so you’ll behave in ways that ordinary people shrink away from.
It’s hard for people to let go of what they have been taught, and the persons who have taught them. And if you want the decent, quiet Christians whose misfortune it is to belong to the wrong church, who are trying to love but aren’t good at it, have never had reason to question their leaders before, to turn AWAY from hate, you’re not going to do it by BEING the big, scary, ugly, unreasonable gay. By making them the object of hate.
Whether Brian is who he says he is or not, the rest of them don’t know us, and you’re not giving them a very good picture of people they might want change enough to defend.
When two groups are screaming “NO, YOU,” at each other, regardless of which one is right, people tend to stick with the one they already know. Be an ambassador or be a warrior, Dirk, but if you’re going to be a warrior, take it to the top and let the ambassadors deal with the masses.
(If you’re wondering, btw, what I do IRL is make a safehouse for teens, especially GLBT but also other victims of abuse, in my tiny Southern town. My two teens find ‘em and bring ‘em home, so they know there’s a place they can be safe and loved for who they are, and then they bring THEIR friends here. I haven’t had to stand up to a parent yet, (well, okay, maybe once or twice) but they know I will.)
Cat, I just love you. Truly. I do the same in my little ‘burb – my kids bring their gay friends here, we make sure they know they are safe and loved. I am in the middle of writing a program (and looking for grant money – if anyone has a lead!) to deal with LGBT bullying specifically in urban schools. My younger daughter goes to a brand-new charter school, focused on the arts. As such, we have many students who are gay. They are also young – some of them may not even realize it yet – but those of us who are actually familiar with the gay community are well aware of them. We have at least two gay teachers, but they are not, as of yet, comfortable outing themselves. I only know because I have become friends with them. I want them to be comfortable being open about who they are (one is married and should be able to mention his husband without fear of reprisal) because they are wonderful role models for the kids. What I’ve learned in the year that this school has been in existence is that the urban minority population we serve is not nearly as comfortable with LGBT people as the other school communities in which I’ve been involved. I am working with the administration to make changes – but I know it will be an uphill battle. And yet – I’m going to fight it. For my kid, and and for all her friends who are “Other” – whatever that might be.
I love your comment about warriors and ambassadors and the different roles they play. I find myself wanting to be a warrior at school, but needing to be an ambassador. It is a hard line not to cross sometimes!!
Yeah, I want to be a warrior too. With a great big FLAMING sword. Put the wrath of God on ‘em. Make them as afraid as they make us. BUT…..even if I didn’t have a very young child in a very small town, it would just backfire. Here, at least. Because fear is the reason they are acting the way they are to begin with.
For grant funding for anti-bullying programs, try the CDC. Also talk to the Social Justice program at your nearest UU church, or UU on line.. May or may not have the resources to help you but ought to have some leads.
I was also trying to BECOME a teacher this year, now that my two eldest are getting out of the school system, but there isn’t funding for the teach-to-get-certified program while certified teachers are out of work. And if I were outed as bi, or just non-Christian (or have been and don’t know it) that would never, never happen. Never get hired at all.
Right now I’m settling for making friendships with some of the local teachers.
Thanks for the leads, Cat – I’ll check them out. Good luck with the local teachers – just keep pluggin’ – - – !
This is awesome, Cat. Bless you and your important work.
Forgive me for going off topic, but goodness gracious, you were surprised to see people begging in America?
I guess Memphis, where I live, does tend to top the charts for things like “hungriest city in America.” But here, even back before the economy tanked, I knew dozens of homeless in my neighborhood. And mine is not all that bad a neighborhood.
One time several years ago a dude asked my husband for some money and my husband asked if he could do anything for him, and found out that the dude was one of ten living in the car wash behind the gas station. This was the dead of winter, nights well below freezing. But he was optimistic because there was an electrical outlet in the car wash and they owned a shared hot plate so at least they could heat up food. Since that time I’ve been more aware of the homeless – the mattresses and fire pit under the Nonconnah bridge, the camps out by Callis cutoff.
I’m up Christmas Eve reading while my husband dusts. Don’t ask, he just suddenly decided he needed to dust everything before morning. And someone bumped this blog post, and it struck me, being Christmas, that it’s a good time to remember to look behind the gas station and under the overpass and if you see anybody, just ask what you can do.
Well, it’s my turn to comment. I will start off withThere is no proof as to gay people being born gay. That is a fact. Gods first words were to go out and multiply. Now every one knows that 2 men or 3 women cannot do this. God gave us his rules ,and knew that we would not obey all his rules.He made us sinners and that is the truth.Now , Iam not gay but I am a sinner and I do love God and I never want him to be away from me.So, I confess my sins to him daily,knowing that deep in my heart he will forgive me.Masterbating is a sin,and to spil the seed is a sin,and most people do it.I do it, knowing that is a sin. But, I am also sorry for this sin that I made against God. I admit it. That, my gay friends is the difference between you and me. You have looked for excuses to meet your approval and not Gods approval. I live with my sins ,and I try to do better to correct myself from sinning against God, even tho I find myself not so good at correcting my self because I continue to do the same things over and over again.Homosexuality IS against Gods law, and there is nothing that you could do to convince yourself or others that it is not. So, Live with your sins and confess to God and do your best to ask fot his forgiveness. At least face the facts of your sins and don’t try to change Gods words to convince your self that you are right . Always remember these words from the son of God,” FATHER,FORFORGIVE THEM,
FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO” and just maybe you will see that God is a, forgiving God and someday he will end your sinful life in piece, to be with him in heaven.
This is an ignorant and antiquated perspective, not to mention dangerous. You are harming gay men and women – particularly children – with this belief system and as a fellow Christian I will no longer allow you to speak for God or for me. Your claim on “God’s view of homosexual is over. You are not better than those who use the Bible to justify the lack of support for interracial marriage.
So take your scripture asking he Father to forgive for they mnow not what they do, ask for the grace of humility to see thst sho Jesus was talking about – at least in this context – is you. You don’t see what you are doing and God have mercy for the blood on your hands as a result.
It’s not ignorant, its biblical and the guy was honest. Everyone struggles with sinful desires to one degree of the other. But it seems those who have desires towards gay sex don’t want to struggle not to engage in that so they excuse themselves from the struggle that other Christians who have other types of sinful sexual desires struggle with, such as masturbation, or lustful thoughts, etc. We struggle and in time God can give a full victory over lust so its no longer a struggle or hard to resist. But if you don’t admit that these things are sins in the first place and then engage in the struggle to NOT commit them as God expects us to and commands us to,( seeking his help with it) , then you end up with this idea that there is a God-given homosexual identity and God is fine with that type of sexual activity–which is completely against what the word of God says.
Hey everyone, this is my first post here. My name is Elizabeth. I hope this is coherent. I’m in my first week of class as a Senior in college and I’m a little bit burned out from all the reading I’ve been doing.
I’d like to focus on your progression of thought here in particular: ‘He made us sinners and that is the truth.”
This is indeed an antiquated view of God, as well as highly illogical. God did not ‘know’ that we would sin, he simply gave us the free will to make that choice. To suggest that God knew that and then proceeded anyway is to paint a portrait of a sociopathic God who deliberately made us so sinful that we would need him, as if he is enacting Stockholm Syndrome rather than agape.
As far as the emphasis on ‘go out and multiply’… Please consider the fact that Adam and Eve were not conceived through sexual reproduction. Also, that some people choose to remain celibate, some people are afraid of sex, and that that is a quite invasive attitude about the complexities of the female body and the experience of pregnancy. Some men and some women are sterile. Some couples find themselves ill-equipped to parent and thus do not become parents. This does not mean that people should view those who do not reproduce or have children in other forms should be maligned. There is a Judeo-Christian-inspired stigma toward people and couples who are childless, as if they have not followed through on their Christian duty to reproduce, or as if there is something so wrong with them that God would not bless them with children. There are over 40 places in the Bible that command us to take care of orphans (and widows). Maybe it’s time to start taking care of the children who are in need and already exist rather than pumping more out in accordance with a vague moral platitude that should by no means be normative any longer.
Kay,
There is a preponderance of scientifically valid evidence indicating that male homosexuality is both immutable and determined by factors incapable of postpartum influence.
The onus is upon you to disprove the validity of these independently repeated and verified findings, not us.
Hormones have no relevance to ones sexual orientation as an adult.
Because sexual orientation is immutable, anyone who claims to have ‘changed’ their sexual orientation is either lying or is bisexual. Or both.
Goodness, what do they teach in these schools today?!
Kay? While I appreciate the positive, welcoming tone, your data’s incorrect. Some of the studies may be open to interpretation, but there is definitely solid, reputable scientific evidence out there.
Cat,
I am not trying to start an argument, but could you please point me to those studies of solid, reputable, scientific evidence. I have been reading study after study and would love some advice of where to turn to find this information. Thanks in advance. Sorry – I know that this probably does not belong on this thread, but really needed to ask. Thanks.
Merry Christmas!
Here, try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation
There’s also some evidence for a genetic component, since identical twins are more likely to share sexual orientation than fraternal twins. Obviously if orientation were entirely genetically determined, then ALL identical twins would share sexual orientation. But there are many traits which are partly genetic and partly environmental, such as height. I went to school with a pair of identical twins who were three inches different in height because one had an illness during a growth spurt.
God bless you, dear man. Jesus loves you and so do I.
Someone needs to explain Romans 1:22-28.
It seems to me that passage is about idolotry. “..changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator… For this cause God gave them up… And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over…”
I see no comparison between those who have no interest in GOD & those who love GOD very much & want to serve Him, and happen to be gay. Like the man who wrote this letter.
The Bible starts right off with “it is not good for man to be alone.” If that’s how you’re wired to love & form relationships, then best wishes to you… it’s not good to be alone.
In Romans 1:22-28, Paul is describing the sexual RELIGIOUS practices of the pagans of that time. He’s not talking about same sex LOVE or RELATIONSHIP. Which wasn’t anything he knew anything about, anyway, gay OR straight, because he was celibate and single.
I have a really hard time with people who believe that being gay is a choice. I always say that when I hit puberty, I never questioned whether I would like boys or grils. The heterosexual impulse was hard-wired in me. So why isn’t the homosexual impulse also hard-wired? Gays are not “defective” creations of God.
great post John- it really shows how complicated life can be.
Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry that your life has been such a struggle. I am sorry that the narrowness of some people’s Christianity has made your life (and the life of gay people in general) so difficult. I do pray that that is changing as more and more of Christianity moves away from the narrow, right-wing that it was couched in for so long in America. Know that GOD loves you just the way you are. That you are an amazing creation of GOD and that your story will touch lives and hearts and show that there is a better, more loving, way.
Debra
So long as you love God in Christ and love your neighbor, you are a Christian in God’s eyes. However, it’s not hard to see why this man would want to distance himself from the hateful “regional managers” that claim the copyright on the word Christian.
i like that, “regional managers”. that’s a clever way of explaining it!
What a wonderful read. I can’t imagine how deep the hurt goes here. I was raised mainline protestant and its tough enough.
Great letter; thanks to the author for writing this enlightening letter, and thanks, John, for posting this. I hope the letter writer has found a truly loving Christian church that he/she can be fully comfortable in to share his walk with Christ. I’m still just astounded about why so many people who adhere to the fundamentalist/evangelical way of practicing Christianity are so quick to believe what they are told by others in that group that there is something wrong with anyone who isn’t heterosexual! They are missing the whole basic tenet of Christ;s teaching of his new commandment to LOVE ONE ANOTHER! Where’s the love in this whole discussion when they are involved?
Keep up the good work, John. I can only hope that putting out posts like this can help chip away the hate and allow more room for love.
Seems to be working fine from here John!
Test comment…
I love you, John!
The whole concept of only one narrow path leading to God is simply beyond the pale. If reading this man’s journey doesn’t open your mind, even the teeniest bit, then I fear yours is rusted shut.
Mindy,
The writer of this letter seems to concur that Jesus is the only path to God
The writer identifies as a Christian – a lot of Christians believe what Mindy offered, it’s not a foregone conclusion. Where does the OP actually anything that would lead you to that impression?
Actually, Brian, I don’t believe he said that anywhere, but since I wasn’t talking about Jesus vs. not Jesus, your comment is irrelevant.
My point was that the writer is surrounded by so many self-proclaimed Christians who are really haters that he cannot live his life as a loving, proud, GAY Christian in their eyes. They have so narrowed the supposed path to God that only a few self-aggrandizing bigots are allowed to walk it.
Personally, I know in my heart of hearts that God can be reached by many paths. But I was not in any way assigning that to the writer, nor did the writer opine on that matter.
OK now I see what you mean when you said the “narrow path”, so when Jesus said there is ONE way and ONE path through ONLY him, you don’t believe that then?
Nope. I don’t. I don’t take it literally, Brian. I believe that anyone can find their way to God, by living a life of compassion and honesty and love and work. Like Jesus lived. I think anyone who lives through Jesus’ example, even if they learn those ways from Mohammed or Buddha or Mother Nature or their parents or friends or by trial and error through life, will find eternal peace and contentment. I do not believe that Christianity is the only path to God. Sorry, never have, don’t now. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect it as a valid path, when lived as Jesus taught. Just not the only one.
I also believe in reincarnation of the soul, so obviously, I follow a different path.
Ok, thanks for sharing your beliefs
The path is so broad that it is like a plane and that plane extends through all places where love and understanding reside. There is one way, but it is a way, not a gateway and it is inclusive, not exclusive.
I wish that Christ’s message could be broadcast directly to the heart like a radio wave instead of through canon like the Bible. Perhaps then it would resonate with the love intended instead of the judgmental poison so many extract from it.
Thanks for clarifying, Don. I appreciate it. Namaste.
Don,
Christ’s message is directly to the heart, via the Holy Spirit. The unconverted man doesn’t receive spiritual things and looks at the Bible as contradictory fables from a bunch of dead Jews. When the Holy Spirit enters a persons heart through the Gospel the love of Christ does takes hold and their heart, mind and actions change (repentance).
Christ’s message can ONLY be broadcast through the heart, Brian’s right about that.
But since it’s not in language to begin with, the translation varies from person to person, place to place and time to time. Sometimes it sounds like the wind in the trees. Sometimes it sounds like a baby. “Christ” is only one WORD for it. Another one is “love.”
I love this, Don, and actually, Christ’s message IS broadcast directly to the heart like a radio wave. This is even referred to in Scripture. Deuteronomy 30:11-14: “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. ”
Even before Christ was born, God’s Word was broadcast directly into every human heart, and it lives there. When Christ came, He underscored that message by giving the commandments “Love the lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.” In our hearts, we all already know what love is, what it’s like to receive it. The Law calls for us to give to others that which we would like to receive. The rest of the Bible is useful too, but nowhere near as important as that one command from Jesus.
I do believe this. The final redactor of the 4′th Gospel is quite clear about who the Jesus speaking in it is. The meaning of Jesus in this quote is almost identical to that of Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching saying “There are many ways but only ONE way (tao).
Thanks, for this Don. Would it be fair to say One Way by many names?
Yes.
woot:) My mom used to say it was a great diamond with many facets. Or the blind men and the elephant.
A Rose by any other name becometh not a skunk cabbage.
=) Love the blind men and the elephant!
Romans 2:12-16
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Love this, Mindy.
What an article. I think a lot of believers feels its cut and dry with someone going from gay to straight. I think they don’t see that its not for lack of wanting to change. For gay people who do love God and have a relationship with Him to have fellow believers discredit soomeones faith because they have a particular struggle makes me sick. I wish Christians could be more real regarding their struggles and not act like being gay is worse than any other sin/struggle.
Being gay is neither a sin nor a struggle.
Sexual orientation is immutable.
Your position is based on a false assumption.
actually from what i have heard from first-person accounts … some people’s sexuality evolves over time and some people’s changes according to hormones produced by their body. but a LOT of people are either Straight or Gay and that’s it and they were never and will never be anything else.
Well put Dirk.
Being gay is not a sin and it is a struggle, only because Christians believe it is a sin.
Only conservative Christians, DR. Non-hateful Christians don’t believe such lies, created to justify the rape, beating, torture and murder of gays, lesbians and the transgender.
And, yes, you are very right – they do make it a struggle. That hateful, vile, loathsome piece of vermin, Michele Bachmann has the highest level of gay teen suicide in her school district of the entire country.
No surprise, there.
Which she refuses to comment on, by the way. Vile is right.
Michelle Bachman is indeed a natural rallying point for the haters and she makes the most of it.
However, there are non-hateful Christians who believe such lies, unless and until they have reason to believe otherwise. I’ve met ‘em, talked to ‘em, even watched some of them learn and grow and change.
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