So lately there’s been all this stuff everywhere about people who would vote for Rick Perry being in a cult.
Wait.
Sorry. The issue at hand is whether Mormonism is a cult. My mistake.
The best man at my wedding, Keith, was a Mormon. I loved that guy. Keith was my best/only friend all through high school. I missed him terribly when he went on his mission trip to France. France! The closest I’d ever been to France was being rude while ordering french fries.
I don’t know if on his mission trip Keith converted any French people to Mormonism. Probably not. The French are a pretty fashionable people. And I think while there Keith still had to wear that Mormon missionary outfit so favored by guys who’ve come to your office to fix the copy machine.
Then again, uber-geek fashion was a bit of the rage back when, like, Talking Heads were first popping. So who knows? Maybe the French thought Keith was an ultra-chic representative of Le’ House of Dork.
I dunno. I know Keith’s extremely lovely family never tried to convert me. Ever. I think they were afraid I might become a Mormom. I think they used to coach Keith on what to say to make sure I was never tempted to become a Mormon.
“Read to him that part from The Book of Mormon about the magic stones,” I imagine them telling him. “Tell him about the crazy underwear we wear. That should do it.”
If that was their plan, it worked. I loved Keith. But I was about to become a Mormon like I was about to become an Eagle Scout. Which Keith also was.
How Keith and I ever got to be best friends is beyond me. Well, it’s not, really. Keith was easily the funniest person I’ve ever met. So that’s why.
Keith’s parents had seriously mixed feelings about me. On the one hand, they were happy their decidedly nerdy son had a friend from high school. On the other hand, that friend was me. I came from a home not just broken, but shattered. I smoked cigarettes. I smoked weed. I drank. I seemed to have a million girlfriends. I drove a car you could hear coming from blocks away. I looked like the cover shot from Every Mother’s Nightmare magazine.
Keith was their eldest son, of five kids. In high school he was already taking college classes. I barely attended our high school. On the first day of my senior year of high school, I saw this small, skinny kid, a freshman or sophomore, pretty upset because he couldn’t get his locker to work.
My locker was just a couple down from his. “Here,” I told the kid. “You can have my locker. It’s fine. It’s yours.” I gave him the combo to my locker, and then tossed my books in some bushes right beside the lockers.
That was my new locker. Bushes. Until I left high school six months later, that’s what I actually used for my locker. And they’d water those bushes. I’d show up to math class, and my book would be all wrinkled, and wet, and dirty, with little branches and leaves stuck all over it. And slugs. Seriously. Baby slugs. Who apparently strived for a better life.
Meanwhile, Keith was already deciding which college scholarships to take.
One time, when I was having Thanksgiving dinner at Keith’s house, I looked around the table, and saw the happiest, healthiest, most loving family I’d ever even imaged could exist. They actually liked each other. And I knew this family. I knew how good they were. I knew how much their religion meant to them. They didn’t talk much about Mormonism, but they sure lived it. In an emergency, theirs was the house you wanted to go to, for sure. Their dad, like, built their house. And their Mom made June Cleaver look like a drunk prostitute. Their whole family was amazing.
Maybe Mormonism is a cult. I don’t know. (Well, I do: it’s not.) All I know is that when I was a kid, it was a Mormon family who showed me what a real family, operating at maximum capacity, looks like. It was the first time I’d ever seen that. And I can’t say I’ve seen it that often since.
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He talks as if he were the head of the office.Fasten your seat belt.I like ice-cream.Our school covers 100 square meters.Make yourself at home.I would like to express to all of you here our sincere welcome.I would like to express to all of you here our sincere welcome.She is a good-looking girl.Shut up!Let’s divide the cake into three.
My Mormon experiance was very similar to yours….
As a kid, before I met my best friend, I was fasinated with Utah. This was stemed from a research project that 2nd grade me was forced to do; you’re assigned a state, you research it’s physical geography. Mine was Utah. I always thought since then I’d live there when I grew up; it was beautiful. But my mom reacted in horror to this statement, telling me that Utah was bad because of something called “Mormons.” I never changed my mind, but from then on whenever I heard the word “Mormon” I was made more and more curious about it. What was a Mormon? Why where they bad?
In fifth grade, I met Nathan. Nathan was the picture of childhood; a boy who irritated, amused, and changed you permentantly in the same breath. He was infectious, contagious, influential. We were instant best friends, bonding over our love of theatre and music, milkshakes and owls. I had no idea he was a Mormon; he never said anything about it and I never asked.
When we were 11, I visited his house for the first time and that’s when things began. His father, supremely freindly and supportive, and his mother, endlessly patient and nurturing, were the vision of parenthood; in love with eachother and united in the raising of their four kids. The way their family opperated stunned me; I had never met a family who not only loved eachother, but actually LIKED eachother before, ever. They taught me what it meant to be family; from an outside perspective it felt like what you wished your family was.
Something I knew about the Freezes was that they all seemed to love something called “BYU.” I watched games with Nathan and his twin Tyler, but it was my mom who told me what it meant.
“Byu?” she questioned. “They’re Mormons?”
I thought about this, thought about everything bad I’d ever heard about Mormons, and then realized now I knew the truth behind the nasty comments.
“Yes.” I said proudly. “Yes, they are, and I love them, all of them.”
My mom met them and she changed her heart as well, but still to this day I wish I’d met them sooner. They helped me with so much; they were who you’d want to go to for anything. It’s no wonder I love them all so much; they’re my family now. Mr. Freeze said I was a part of their family so many years a go, and I never fully grasped that until recently. I cannot thank them enough, and while I have yet to convert to Mormonism, I have utmost respect and love for them, because that was what they showed me.
They really do have the most loving, supportive families of anyone I’ve ever met. I always find it so odd that those of us who are Christian – who believe that God sent His Son to die for us and then rose from the dead – find other belief systems about other planets, etc. so preposterous. If you step outside the Christian narrative, it reads like a fairy tale!
Did you see “8: The Mormon Proposition” documentary? It’s on instant stream if you have Netflix. It speaks to the LDS church and it’s stance on homosexuality…not just its stance, but its very under-handed actions.
Not cool.
Do I know lots of really sweet LDS folks? Yep. Love them. Admire many aspects of the LDS church. And yet…the underlying fundamentalist viewpoint that makes up LDS doctrine and practice, particularly the requirement of obedience to the church (the prophet speaks for God, disobey the prophet and disobey God), doesn’t lead me to applaud or support the church as a whole (any more than I would applaud or support my own conservative evangelical heritage)…
I grew up next to the Mormon church. I have had Mormon friends and close acquaintences my entire life. Every single one of them are kind, wonderful people. Their families are the “Beaver Cleaver” version contrasted against my “South Park” like family. Their children seem to actually enjoy their siblings and parents.
Some have tried to convert me. Most haven’t. I can honestly say that the biggest barrier is not my disagreement on doctrine. Neither is it my jaundice view of Joseph Smith being a prophet. While being opposed to their mingling in the political realm there is a even stronger deterent to my becoming a good Mormon lady. I cannot imagine spending the rest of my life without coffee. Seriously? Why did they make that a rule? Alcohol, I kind of get, but Coffee? Okay. That one rule alone will guarantee as much as anything else that I will NEVER become a Morman.
While I might not agree with some of the fundamental beliefs Mormons believe, I know some who exemplify Christ some fellow followers of Christ do not. Have I ruled them out completely? No. It’s not my place to judge and only God truly knows the contents of their heart, it is between them and him.
You’ve already mentioned the Mormons and Prop8 thing, which ties into the larger Mormons Meddling In Politics, so I won’t belabor the point other than to mention that the National Organization for Marriage (NOM), perhaps the highest profile anti-Marriage Equality group, has strong ties to the Mormon Church. (Some claim it’s a Mormon front-group. I don’t know that’s true or claim to.)
I’m atheist, so take this with a grain of salt or perform whatever “warding off evil” ceremony your religion prefers, but even I can see the difference between a religion that has evolved over thousands of years (for good or ill) and one started roughly a century and a half ago by a convicted con-man, whose claims about discovering the Book Of Mormon follow rather closely the treasure-dowsing fraud for which he was convicted.
Basically I view the Mormon Church as the Beta version of Scientology. If there IS an afterlife, somewhere Joseph Smith is kicking himself for not charging per ‘religious’ lesson like Scientology instead of merely having introduced enforced tithing. (I envision his reaction being a very Homer Simpson-like “D’OH!”)
That enforced tithing has created a fantastically wealthy governing body able to exert influence outside the religious sphere. The organization of the LDS church requires a level of obedience from its adherents, under threat of excommunication, that’s certainly cult-like at the very least. To examine the difference, look at what the Pope says and how Catholic laypeople respond to poll questions. There’s quite a difference there.
Though atheist, I believe that religion can and often is a positive influence in the lives of individuals and communities. Which isn’t to deny its negative impact, just giving credit where it’s due. That’s true of the Mormon church too, but the meddling in and control of the lives of their parishioners via Stake Presidents and local temples is unusual at the least, the enforced tithing is a form of extortion, and their direct meddling in politics goes against everything I believe about religion’s proper place in politics.
Ask yourself this. How much of Mormonism’s aggressive proselytizing and public relations work is about sharing truth and salvation and how much is about gaining power and wealth? Who does their alleged “do-gooding” really benefit? Even their mythology promises a pretty big pay-off at the end, not just GOING to a nice place but one you can be the boss of. All in all I’m not seeing a whole lot of outwardly-directed magnanimity there, just a lot of “Looking Out For #1″ self-interest in the guise of piety. Even above and beyond the usual money and power-grubbing we’ve come to expect from religion, I mean.
Back in the day I worked in Customer Service at the Christian Coalition. I lived a mile from Pat Robertso’c CBN, blah blah.
Anyhoo, I remember reading Ralph Reed’s book (Ooo, I had a signed copy!) and all the fundraising letters that went out. What hit home to me at the time was, when the referencing religious conservatives the CC was claiming to represent, three groups were ALWAYS mentioned: Christians, Jews and Muslims.
I say this because, being around all that, right in the middle of it all, it was glaringly obvious that Mormons were okay, too, because politically they would be on the same side.
Omg, glaring typos. So sorry. It’s not even 6am…
Y’know, when you think about it, a denomination w/a history of polygamy should be very supportive of gay marriage.
I mean, they hafta give the odd guys out somethin’ to do…
I probably shouldn’t say anything, but I can’t stop myself. I worked at a Christian bookstore for awhile (at John Wimber’s church in Anaheim Hills), and there was a whole section on cults. How tro identify them, what they were, how dangerous the oculd be. And there were several standard reference books there, I think primarily of Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults. And there’s a huge section on how cultic Mormonism is. Martin himself released a four cassette tape series on Mormonism, outlining its many non-Biblical beliefs. AT THE SAME TIME, I heard from the pulpit, over and over, how important it was to elect doctrinaire, theologically sound Bible-believing Christians to public office.
You can see where this is going.
I want to be VERY clear, I am not making any judgment call whatsoever on Mormonism. Simply because I hold quite a few beliefs that would not exactly pass muster with the Doctrine Squad. I only say this: the conservative christian movement has had its backside exposed. It seems to me really obvious that political power has been the primary goal all along, and the insistence on doctrinal purity was just a way of getting to this point. Now….inh…we don’t care what you believe as long as you’re a republican.
I think this is the truth.
@Sharon – Too funny!! Loved the part about some of us assuming certain powers to which we have no right… PERFECT! I, too am a fundamentalist survivor…. it DOES get better!!
I am a product of a Morman town, whose 85% friends were Mormon. I was a proud UCC Protestant. When the missionaries come to my door, I let them know that I am a happy (now) Methodist, and that if I wanted conversion, I would let my dear Mormon friends know. I also ask them over for dinner, which they politely turn down. We do bat for the same team (Christ), but we have different beliefs. I love my Mormon friends, and just like my Muslim neighbors, I will stand up for their beliefs, because they are peaceful people.
Lots of good comments to a great post. Many of my thoughts on the topic have already been quite ably expressed…but I think it’s worth emphasizing some important points:
Whether or not a particular group is a “cult” depends entirely on your definition of cult. Without a clear and carefully delineation of what you are (and aren’t) saying by labeling a group a cult you’re merely engaging in irresponsible rhetoric.
Generally speaking, using the term “cult” has extremely negative connotations. It’s often used as a marginalizing pejorative, conjuring up images of Jim Jones and Charles Manson and David Koresh. Sure there are appropriate uses of the term, but to cavalierly apply it to large groups of people who exhibit absolutely no characteristics commonly associated with cults is at the least ignorant and at the worst deliberately malicious.
Whether or not Mormonism is “Christian” depends entirely on one’s perspective. What is orthodox belief from one person’s point of view may be heresy from another’s. But Mormonism’s conception of God is clearly at odds with the understanding of God proffered by mainstream Christianity. If a Mormon wants to call themself a Christian that’s fine, but I think it’s important to keep in mind that they have some very different foundational beliefs than those of orthodox Christianity.
To return to the point of the post…kids have a knack for seeing through all this crap. It doesn’t matter what label you’ve been given or what other people call you. We’re all just people, and rather than seeking to label and group and box each other in (often with the intent of marginalizing and suppressing), we’re all better off when we seek to relate to one another as individuals, to understand our differences and to rejoice in our similarities.
Dan,
“Very different foundational beliefs”, is THAT everr an understatement. Just a basic study of their doctrine proves their beliefs are entirely different, so much so, that I don’t know how anyone could group them with any mainline Christian denomination. I wouldn’t go as far and call them a cult, but Christian? Nope
Do they (a) believe in God as the Creator of the universe and (b) that Jesus Christ is His son and (c) Christ died to save mankind and (d) by accepting Christ as one’s personal savior one is indeed saved?
Sounds Christian to me…
They have Christian sounding terminology, but the definitions are vastly different. For example, Jesus Christ isn’t God – he is a created being, there are many gods, man can be a god with celestial wives over thier own planet. There are other sacred writings on the same level as the Bible and on it goes into the truly bizarre The use words that sound Christian, but it is “very different” as Dan said. As the Bible says,”things that are different are not the same”. The Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of the Mormon.
Mormons believe that God was once a human who evolved into one of an infinite number of gods and that we also can evolve to become gods, whereas Christians believe that God is the only self-existent being and that he created and sustains all things. These two beliefs are mutually incompatible. That doesn’t mean that one belief system is better than the other, or even that someone one who self-identifies as Mormon understands and accepts those beliefs. But as Brian W. pointed out, Mormons often use religious language in different ways than Christians. Again…it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a cult, or that they’re wrong or going to hell or whatever. It’s just means that to conflate Mormonism with Christianity is theologically incorrect.
Well said Dan.
Thank you! I totally agree! Whatever they are is fine, but it’s just confusing people for them to call themselves christians… and not to sound like a total paranoid dick, but I think that it was planned that way. Not to say by your average everyday mormon, but the higher ups? definitely. It’s a conversion tool and it works really well.
Any group that can build buildings that look like retro-Soviet space ports is cool by me!
Friendship makes strange friend-fellows.
I dunno, but I read something years ago that attributed Joseph Smith’s supposed visions to his having eaten rye grain tainted by the fungus, ergot. Ergot was the original source of LSD, so maybe his visions were, in fact, hallucinations. Who knows?
All of which does nothing to resolve whether Mormonism is a cult. Personally, I think salvation is so personal that it’s not up to us to determine such things. Some of us are too willing to assume certain powers to which we have no right. – such as judging another’s faith and whether it’s right or wrong.
My late parents-in-law was LDS, and their marriage was sealed in the Salt Lake City Temple. They raised their five children LDS (LSD? sorry…) and only two of the four still living still adhere to the faith. I wouldn’t trade any of them for the fundamentalists I grew up among. I only know my Jack-Mormon husband grins when I telll him I don’t care what they believe, if going to Heaven means I have to keep having babies throughout eternity, I’m not going.
Sheesh! I ought to start my own blog!
How one differentiates a “cult” from a religious denomination really escapes my ability. There are many Christian denominations as well as non Christian religious followings. In my spiritual path I have come to accept people of “good will” – those who work for, care for, and love one another as my own Saviour, Jesus Christ, has mandated. If,therefore, wittingly or unwittingly, people are doing this, then aren’t we all advancing the Kingdom of God which Christ teaches is upon us and within each of us. He spoke of his Father’s kingdom having many mansions. Perhaps He was telling us that we believe in Him and are followers of Him even if we do not truly know Him by living a life of love. This makes the silliness of determining whether a following is a cult, Christian, non-Christian and so, moot. He became incarnate to live and experience our lives and finally to bring us to His Father. When we start judging the value of another person or faith community, we become the Pharisaic – He despised and condemned their hypocrisy but their person. By living love “unconditionally” we live Christlike, and isn’t that our/His goal ?
Here’s my status from the day the Perry/Romney kerfuffle occurred:
Funny. Christians were originally branded a cult, rounded up and killed. And here’s two branches of Christianity arguing over who’s a cult and who’s not. Shouldn’t they ALL proudly claim cult-hood?
We all know it’s pejorative….and indicative of the sin of religious superciliousness (I always wanted to use that word: Triple word score!). Anyway: caveman-like chest thumping about how my God is bigger than your God, and how my theologians are smarter than your theologians, and how the people who follow your God are delusional and doing it all wrong. Meanwhile, back in heaven, God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit (er, just God) created a clap of mountain-shaking thunder while executing a Holy Facepalm. Either that, or the vein underneath the right eye of our anthropomorphized concept of God as an old guy with a long white beard (Thanks, Leonardo) has begun to twitch…. and he does some holy cursing:
#$*F@%^#$@*^#$&F@&#&$F&#!?!!!
“Are you still so dull…..” Matthew 15:16-18
(Not you, Don, but you – as in us. You know what I mean: you plural, you all, ya’ll.)
Anyway. <>
was supposed to have a – Deep sigh – in it.
Loved this blog… my experience (about the family dynamics) with some LDS friends too. Disgustingly healthy and functional. Maybe it’s what’s possible without caffeine. I shudder at the thought.
oh i forgot that part. yeah, maybe?!
I can’t be a Mormon b/c of the no caffeine rule, I can no longer be a So. Bapt. b/c of the no alcohol rule
I have a feeling I’ll die a Rastafarrian…
Buzz: FUNNY! Great one.
The Episcopalians would be happy to have you…
I have no idea.
Oh, righto. gotcha.
Well, I dunno–I’m not a terribly clever or funny writer, but I do take the issue somewhat lightly, and here’s why: (I’m speaking as one of those strange Christians who accepts and respects everyone and the path they’ve chosen as their own–and as someone who welcomes to the Communion table anyone who wants a closer relationship with God–if they figure out they believe in one or want to try to do so). From my perspective on Christianity, no–Mormonism is not traditional Christianity; but it IS a religion that believes in Jesus so strongly that they figure he teleported himself to North America to leave them a message. (Why would he do that? The winters in NY are awful! He spoke to me from under a nice shady fig tree somewhere in Judea. I figure he was in a much better mood then than he would have been digging a hole in a hillside in NY. And besides, why would he want to HIDE his testament? Oh, well…) The thing is, the Mormons believe in Jesus as a prophet, just as Muslims do and just as modern-day Judaism respects him as having some inspired-of-God things to say. And we (hopefully) treat Muslims and Jews with common acceptance and respect–so why not Mormons? And to those who say, “As a Christian, I couldn’t vote for a Mormon for President”, I say, “As a Christian AND American, I can vote for anyone who has a vision for an America filled with justice and peace”. In fact, since voting is a civil act accomplished in accord with the U.S. Constitution, having nothing whatsoever to do with religion, I could vote for someone of ANY religion–or none–because, you see, the Constitution places no religious test on the office of President. I hope this added to the discourse–even if it didn’t, I feel better now, having said it. I just can’t take this question very seriously–I mean, shouldn’t we be more interested in living the love for others that Christ taught us, and less concerned about what someone else believes? Besides, if we do a good job of living Christ’s love, won’t our actions be our witness to what we believe? Since actions DO speak louder than words, maybe we ought to stop arguing and start doing.
yeah that’s the thing … just because some aspects of somebody’s religion might *personally* creep me out, they are supposed to uphold the constitution and get the country going in a useful direction and stuff like that.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I assure you that we view Jesus Christ as much, much more than a prophet. He is my Lord, Savior, and Redeemer. His life is my perfect example and through faith in Him and His atoning sacrifice I can be made perfect and return to dwell with my Father in Heaven someday. Without Christ, I would have no hope of anything. With Him, I have hope of everything.
John Shore–I’m sorry your books got wet and sluggy, but that was awfully nice of you.
Oh, ouch. ‘writing me off” was September 12, sorry!! I misread.
Huh?
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