Evangelical, fundamentalist Christians—by which I mean, specifically, Christians who believe that being gay is a moral abomination, an appalling affront to God—talk to me, please, about this kid.
Tell me that you can’t comprehend the connection between your conviction that God finds homosexuals repulsive, and the fact that this kid finds himself so repulsive that he habitually cuts his own flesh.
Tell me, please, how you love this kid. Tell me how you understand his pain. Tell me how when he cries, you cry.
Tell me how you want to do everything in your power to make sure that no one, ever again, feels free to in any way victimize a young gay person.
A Christian myself, I am pleading with you to be honest with me about this.
Tell me, please, how none of this kid’s anguish has anything to do with you.
I’m listening. I really am.
We all are.
Watch this, to its end:
Here’s an update to this story.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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“Translation: In the world of many Fundamentalists, they are only responsible for a bullet that they shoot ‘deliberately’.”
Straw man. But if continuing to put words in mouth makes you feel that you’ve won, enjoy.
“[W]hen it’s shown that the impact of their beliefs re gay men and women are harmful.”
I’m still waiting for you to show me how my belief IN AND OF ITSELF is harmful. Just because one disagrees with or doesn’t like another’s belief doesn’t make that belief harmful.
“They start talking about individual responsibility because many – as demonstrated in this case – are unwilling or incapable of taking responsibility for damage they do while not intending to do it.”
Sorry, but there has been an utter lack of demonstration on your part that I have somehow CAUSED damage to anyone with my belief.
“Fundamentalists put this argument forward a lot. But when pressed for the specific ‘wages of death’ that are a result of being gay – the relational, psychological, emotional and physical impacts of being gay on gay men and women that are destructive?”
Unless you can point to where I’ve used such an argument, this is a straw man.
“They never seem to be able to answer that. When faced with gay men and women who are also christian, whose “sin” of homosexuality has only led to having the same loving partner for 20 years? No destruction, no damage. No wages.”
Even if I did use such a line of reasoning, your response is an argument from ignorance.
“Victimization and ‘I’m so misunderstood!’”
Talking about ballparks, you’re not even close to being in one here. My point was that he was presuming to know more about me than he really does (see my last response to his comments above where I couldn’t have been any more clearer about this).
“For them, it’s all personal. It all revolves around them, this is a classic example of that.
Same song, different verse. More failed amatuer psychology. What that comment you quoted has to do with is not me, but him presuming to know more about me than he does. But I’ve done what I come here to do- present my case as best I can that I’m not some enemy of homosexuals. If you want to continue to believe that I am, so be it. In the end, reality is what it is- and regardless of which of us is wrong, that persons’s belief cannot change that.
Even if I did use such a line of reasoning, your response is an argument from ignorance.>>>
In other words, you just don’t have any. The only common denominator of “sin” is the damage it does to human beings, to our planet, and to ourselves.
There really aren’t any physical, psychological, emotional, even physical damages from the “sin of being gay” that you can offer. There aren’t even any spiritual impacts, there have been hundreds of gay men and women – also Christians – who’ve posted about their devotion to Jesus on this blog. So you are now officially dismissed. I don’ think you have the emotional or intellectual capacity to absorb what people have offered you but my hope is that others in your position who do have read this and can see themselves in it.
Just want to share another blog post by another Christian author who is a positive force in the media!
http://learningmylines.blogspot.com/2011/12/is-jonah-telling-truth.html
http://www.wsmv.com/story/16213348/friends-say-classmate-killed-self-after-bullying#.TuAHvjInY-8.facebook Please pray for this young mad.. and please do whatever you can to stop these hate crimes. Every school should be aware that if they allow a child to be bullied there will be sever consequences. Parents teach your children and be an example of love.
I am sorry.. I meant to write young Man. I am so upset by this I can’t think straight. These hate crimes have to stop. There is no excuse.. Jesus was about love. PERIOD. And THAT is what we should be teaching our children.
@Brian – I really like what you’ve written. But I think this thread is still very much about Jonah and kids like him. And Jonah may be OK today, but what about kids like him?
I’m have no real knowledge of child psychology. What I do have are 13 nieces and nephews. Mostly, young teens are crazy little lovable hilarious sociopaths.
Jonah, as with most teenagers, can be great today and terrible tomorrow. I hope Jonah never cuts himself again, but let’s use this thread to cement the idea that our words and labels can cause both physical and mental harm to kids.
I completely agree on what you have said. Words do hurt! It needs to stop!
What about other kids??? How are you helping other kids. All of us reading this can chit-chat on how things are going to be better, my vision of world is…, this and that should happen. And, I think, many people are scared to take the first step.
:] I have a feeling someone might put the question “How about you” back on me. Here a little bit about me.
I am a cheerleader. I am 19. I, like mike more, am no child psychologist but have been around many kids like Jonah. I am also a coach for cheer/gymnastics and I think I am life coach as well. I do my part the best I can, one child at a time. If I could heal the world I would, but I think that is where the rest of you guys come in. This is what I think. I believe the theory behind The Secret. I think one person would only need to have a strong intention and real desire to want to help kids like Jonah. Otherwise it would only be a thought. After one person has a thought and desire, that person need only take one step in that direction to lay down the rest of the road to follow on. The strongest intention always shows through. If someone is thinking more about fast food instead of cleaning the garage. The chances of him getting fast food first is higher then cleaning the garage. I would want fast food first anyways then clean. hhaha. Children are attached to me like my heart is attached in my chest. Many times I like it and other times I want my space as does anyone who is a little introverted. I am an “open ear”, ” “open book”, an “open heart”ed Young adult. My mom has always told me I should be a youth pastor and maybe one day, after I finish the Olympics in Gymnastics 2016 and 2020, Cirque du Soleil, And college to be a physical Therapy and Healer. Then maybe I’ll be a Pastor for teens. I do what I can with what I have been given to help others who ask for it. I don’t seek it out. Just happens.
other kids? good god man, didn’t you see I have 13 nieces and nephews? A full-time Harvard MBA is required to analyze and forecast optimal birthday and Christmas gifts based on ages, genders, parental restrictions (bugles for all!), sports interests, geography, and the kid’s technical abilities (iPads at correct age, excellent gift … too young and suddenly you find pictures of their older sister’s underwear are broadcast to the entire school.)
OK, seriously … as you have found, the kids who really need our help are all around us, every day, and there are a thousand ways to help.
For anyone looking for a place to start, LGBT homeless shelters and assistance networks always need help and money. Because of our time in NYC, we know firsthand the Ali Forney Center is a great place to get involved. The Trevor Project is amazing. Just look around. Good luck everyone.
:] Yes I saw you have 13 other nieces and nephews. :]
Simply my thoughts.
From what I have learned as a Christian and My experiences as such is that we like to try and put God in a box. I have let God be the Creator of ALL that is. The key word is all that is. Jonah is who he is. He is perfectly fine now and the video was uploaded about 3 months ago. He has support and he has many friends now. Go to his profile Jonah Mowery public figure page and he says, all is well and feeling better and better each and everyday. This blog isn’t about Jonah anymore, I fear. I think its about ones values in life. It about weather I keep my God in a box and I continue to think small of him. Or accept The Creator that created this loving boy for who he is and Everyone that has been in his shoes. ME. So this is a personal topic. This Bible that is a book of guidelines written by people on how to live their lives to the best of their ability. I am going to talk in a little smaller box so some can understand. The book of Exodus The only words from God was the 10 Commandments. JESUS was Gods son. When ever does Jesus say Homosexuality is a sin and I think, correct me if I am wrong, The only time he ever got pissed off was at the temple. Not because Mary was a prostitute, not because Paul was a fisherman, and not when Jesus did absolutely anything wrong and whipping him on the back to die for you and you and you. So… Other then the actual words of God everything else is filler. Expanding the Box a little bit. For me when reading the Bible I let the Creator impress what he wants me to learn in a certain passage. Love thy neighbor. Don’t Judge. When I Judge others of a certain thing I notice its me that I am really judging.
Thank you, Brian.
Thanks Diana.
PLEASE READ.
I like the saying, ” Out with the old. In with the new.”
The old testament, to me, Is just moral stories. Sodom and Gomorah was not about homosexuality. I think I was their intentions of the heart. Sex just to have Sex, Steal just to Steal, Murder just cause I can take a life and feel power that last two minutes. The soul/spirit is never whole after a murder. I think bullying is just as bad as murder.
Jesus, New Testament, gave his life. Why? So we can go to Heaven. We have a way to God. John 3:16. Great Verse. I think it is a bit bigger then that. I like to ponder things a lot and I have very deep thoughts on random subjects most would not be interested in. Think about this. The Holy Trinity. Father… Son… Spirit… Creator… Jesus… Spirit… Jesus was human like you and me. I think Jesus says, not in quotes, You will do greater works and deeds through the holy spirit. O.K. Creator… Me… Spirit Creator… You… Spirit… We are all connected. We are all one in the same. The Universe is like the Human body. We all affect each other weather we see it or not. If 7.2 Billion people took 5 minutes or an hour ( I wish) on a single day to meditate and to give Love back to the Creator and to this earth with just out thoughts, I think we would see change in out immediate life. I think If we Meditated, sending Love for 7 days for 1 HOUR. We would see a global difference. I like to challenge peoples way of thinking and help people step outside of the box and see the big picture. Jonah made a simple act of faith to get support from his friends, who he felt had left him, and it turned out to be I think Global. This is my theory and take it or leave. I challenge people to be curious and look inside ones self.
The Creator sees that this one issue is getting a bit out of hand and the Creator wants Unity through Love/Jesus. There may be nothing out of hand at all but people are suffering through this. The creator took this opportunity to challenge narrow minded people to be more accepting of others. If I was a hard core, ” Bible Thumper” and I saw this video, I would be on my knees praying to God/Creator to figure out what was the REAL ISSUE!!! BEING GAY OR BEING PREJUDICE!!! This is not what the Creator teaches. Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Graciousness, and Self Control, and the great of these is LOVE!!! Now this is what the Creator teaches me. Peace within my self the Buddist way, also Patience. Kindness, to be nice and considerate of others along with Goodness. Graciousness, to me, is humility and grace. Grace is also to forgive even when not deserved. Self-Control, a quality I think, many Americans need to learn. And Love.
I am going to speak plain now. The bottom line is love without it. None of use would be here. We are the evolved species but I think we aren’t acting like it. We excessively compose a variety of intellectual words so as to appear smart. We pay bills and we get into a routine day in and out. We think about other people, for only a couple minutes. This boy has constantly been on my mind for a week. Its sad when an sad event happened that involves life or death, the world stops and looks. Gandhi, Martin L. King Jr. Lincoln, Not a day goes by that I don’t think about him. Until today. I know he is doing great now. Now I am constantly thinking about prejudices. I am only one person. Jonah is only one person. Obama is only one person. Operah. Shaq. My mom. Your friends, Family, Neighbors. I am staying at a friends house who doesn’t know his neighbors after some odd YEARS! of living here. All I am trying to say in this paragraph. is … if Adam and Eve were the first two people on Earth. Then why is my families on Earth in Dismay and Chaos?
Why do we kill for territory,
Why do we need to go to war.
Why do we need to have lines on paper to show which is my or countries.
Why is there Money?
and the question go on in my mind…. .. .. . . . . .
Read the questions again and imagine God/The Creator asking this Planet that. Substitute we for “you” . I started to get to get tears. I had no real father figure for a long amount of time like some. I only want to make my Creator Proud of me.
I am sure I can write a book. but Its 3 27 A M and my Laptop is almost dead. :]] Comment if you’d like but remember. This is my view and I am not impressing in Ideals on Anyone. Please To all Haters… Dont post. I dont have time to walk in circles around you.
If you want a love message to be heard, it has got to be sent out. To keep a lamp burning, we have to keep putting oil in it.
Mother Teresa
You must be the Change you wish to see in the world.
Gandhi
@Esteban:
Let me get this correct …. you watched this heartbreaking video of Jonah, a messed-up kid who claims to have been ruthlessly bullied, a boy who is a cutter, a child who has considered and may again consider suicide.
And your response? Where does Christ’s love take you? Esteban thinks, “Wow, what an excellent forum and opportunity for me to stand proudly on the righteous bow of Christianity, sun in my face and wind in my hair, and smugly declare to the world that homosexuality is a sin.” (I bet you could be on a Titanic poster, you’re so awesome!)
So here’s where I’m coming from: unlike 99.999% of John’s readers, I’m not a particularly nice guy, and with that said, I’d like to proudly declare:
Esteban, You are a worthless piece of sh*t. You make the world a bad place. You are living proof to the world that while Jesus was a very cool dude, way too many of Jesus’ followers SUCK.
Unlike the nice forgiving people here on John’s blog, I Hate You. Yes, that’s correct … I. Hate. You.
I hate you for a lot of reasons, but mostly I hate you because kids like Jonah will commit suicide because of Christians JUST LIKE YOU. So congratulations, I’m sure I’ve given you exactly what you wanted … an angry diatribe on I hate you and your teeny tiny petty god.
(I’m sorry, John. I know this is probably a wildly inappropriate post on your awesome blog, and I know you’ll probably have to delete this post, but I’m hoping Esteban the Fucktard Weasel will see before you hit the delete key.)
Well, so much for Christian love…
Why don’t you try practicing some love, Christian or otherwise, then maybe you’ll receive some in return?
Exactly.
And so much for actually addressing some well-made points because you’re afraid of a bruised ego.
Stop being so manipulative and start demonstrating some emotional maturity. You enter into this conversations with an aggressive posture, knowing you were going to offer a contrary point of view. The responses to you are a result of cause and effect that conservative Christians seem to feel magically exempt from.
Simply put, you initiated the aggression and you knew it. So man up and face the consequences or approach people differently, stop USING the Gospel of Jesus Christ as a hiding place for your poor communication.
@ Esteban. I am not a Christian. I’m here because when I read the words of John and his readers, I hear Jesus. This is a rare and special place. Don’t fuck it up.
And, if you want unconditional love, go talk to God. I, on the other hand, admit that my love is very much conditional. One of those conditions is: YOU DON’T BE MEAN TO LITTLE KIDS.
Your instinctual response to Jonah’s video is to slap the label ‘SINNER’ on the kid. My instinctual response to you is, figuratively speaking, to slap you, hard, upside your no-”Christian love”-resides-in-here noggin’.
And at the very moment my figurative hand banged upside your figurative head … interestingly enough …. I pictured Jesus standing by me, saying, “Jesus H Christ, Moore, how many times have you and I talked about loving your enemies and turning the other cheek?!” And then He whispers quietly in my ear, “off-the-record? thanks, bro, I’ve been dying to knock some sense into that twerp Esteban.”
btw, I hate you less today … everyone should have the chance to evolve, so let’s you and I both try evolving a little today.
Mike,
I appreciate your honesty and understand it. Sometimes comments from people like this make me want to go take a hot scalding shower and wash the “UGH” off. But they also provide a wonderful opportunity for those who’ve had to contend with the Estebans of the world – who’ve been so damaged by his belief system – and see Christians not putting up with his shit. He’s a fantastic foil and while I never expect people like him to change, I think it’s way too scary for him? It’s nice to imagine that there’s someone reading this who’s been tormented by my fellow Christians and says, “Finally – they are speaking up instead of remaining silent.” I hope that’s true.
I, also, very much hope you’re right.
I do feel compassion for this self-hating guy … unfortunately, when a gay guy like Esteban stands in front of kids like Jonah, and says, “God did not make me (you) this way, the devil did. Ever hear of the fall of man? Well, that was the devil. And being gay is part of man’s fallen nature,” he is teaching that kid to hate himself.
Guys like Esteban are seriously dangerous, however sincere.
I think Esteban is an excellent role who’s faking this persona on the internet to get a rise out of people. He should have quit while he’s ahead. That being said, there are people who are like this and as you said, they are incredibly dangerous. I agree.
I was thinking the same thing … but fake persona or not, his words are real, so off I go to tilt at those windmills.
exactly.
You won’t hear from Esteban again.
I sense he’s like Tattoo from Fantasy Island.
LMFAO
It’s cute how you read selectively.
Don’t let the door hit you.
It’s sad that these things happen to this kid. But that doesn’t change the way the Lord views the sin of homosexuality.
Esteban, please be specific as to how being gay brings on ruin and destruction in the mind, heart and being of a gay man or woman. “The wages of sin are death”, it’s easy to identify something as sin because of the havoc and destruction it causes a a life. So please be specific and outline how being gay destroys one’s life. Thanks.
Sorry, but I don’t agree with you on your view of what constitutes a sin. A sin is an affront to the Lord, and we know what is an affront to Him through the Bible. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin. And even if it didn’t say that, Jesus says marriage is between a man and a woman and all sex outside of marriage is a sin. So I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
You didn’t answer my question so I’ll ask again and remind you that you are a Christian who is being read by thousands of people who are not and your witness needs to have some integrity. So perhaps you would consider that respectful dialogue means answering the questions you’re asked. I’ll ask again:
Please be specific as to how being gay brings on ruin and destruction in the mind, heart and being of a gay man or woman. “The wages of sin are death”, it’s easy to identify something as sin because of the havoc and destruction it causes a a life. So please be specific and outline how being gay destroys one’s life. Thanks.
As i said before, I don’t agree with you on what constitutes a sin. I don’t think having gay sex necessarily brings on ruin and destruction. But neither does having sex with your boy/ghirlfriend before you are married. The thing is, both are sins in the eyes of the Bible, and thus, in the eyes of the Lord. There are so many sins that don’t destroy lives, some make lives seemingly better and easier! But they are still SINS!
Please, tell me exactly where in the bible it states that homosexuality is a sin?
Don’t bother. He’ll just use the same, tired old clobber passages as if we haven’t heard them a million other times, just like all clueless fundiegelicals who think liberal Christians and secularists have never read the Bible.
So you really have no answer. Sin has destructive consequences which is why a loving God calls it sin and protects us from it. God only hates those things thst destroy us. To suggest something is an offense to God but you can’t really say why means you really don’t have any reason for it. God is not illogical nor is what he calls a sin disconnected from his children’s emotional, spiritual and psychological health.
The real truth of the matter is you and others have called this a sin all on your own because you are either too lazy to dig into the scriptures to understand its cultural context or you want to justify your own homophobia.
Actually Estaban…the bible does not declare either of those things sin. That fact that you keep declaring otherwise only means you drank the Kool-Aid.
Judgement is a sin. If you knew Jesus then you would know, HE would be sitting right next to this “sinner”. He would show love. WOW, he may even sit down with him over a meal. Ask yourself, would you? Think about that the next time you express yourself.
Wait… Let me find you a stone, I am quite sure you can cast it.
Rather than posting judgement try responding how Jesus would.
What would you say? Are you evolved enough to look inward and re-post with a statement of love as Jesus would?
As for me, I know exactly how this child feels. It was like watching a video of my life to a “T”. I am not the judge of “sin”. “Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, his grace was given me.” Ephesians 3:8
Patrick A. Floyd
What an insensitive, self-righteous thing to say. What makes you so sure God thinks being attracted to the same sex is a sin? Please don’t quote Leviticus, or any of the Pauline verses that for too long have been mistranslated due to the vagueness of the original Greek and translator bias.
Even without those “clobber passages” it is clear that the Bible condemns homo because if the way gender roles are set up. You guys’ heads are stuck so far up your liberal asses.
Explain to me how our current gender roles are somehow derived from the Bible, rather than our reading of the Bible shaped by our current gender roles? Also, please explain to me how you get around the reality that “there is no more male or female” ’cause we’re all one in Christ.
I realize that science is probably anathema to you, but neither gender identity nor sexuality is cut and dried. Even though there appears to be only two genders, there have always been people who were born intersexed (the old term for them was hermaphradites.) This was noticed even in the days before we found out about hormones and other such biochemical influences. Now we know that even though a person may have the appearance of being one gender or the other, that biochemical influences might have worked in that person to make him/her feel more like the opposite gender of his/her appearance. And this doesn’t even get into the influences on sexuality.
Only those who are insecure when it comes to their own gender and sexual identities feel the need to police others. The rest of us understand that there is a wide range of sexual and gender identities and thus do not feel the need to act as the gender/sex police.
Care to tell us? Oh, of course not, you can’t, because it isn’t there. You won’t accept scientific and social findings that suggest that homosexuality isn’t an aberration, because your head is stuck so far up your homophobic ass.
Now that’s the way a Christian speaks…..
I’m not homophobic. I am gay. But I accept that that part of me is wrong, so I don’t act on it.
Then you must really hate God for playing such an evil and manipulative trick on you like some sick and twisted omnipotent bastard getting his holy kicks out of creating such a paradox in you.
I think perhaps the most offensive part of the view you and those like you hold is the way it perverts the nature of our loving God.
it’s very possible to be gay and homophobic, especially when people you respect tell you that you should be.
to hate/reject a part of what God made you, is called self-hating or self-loathing.
it doesn’t mean that God actually hates that part of you. it just means some people convinced you of it.
there are lots of groups in this position, where society in general has, by centuries of pressure, convinced at least some members of the groups to hate themselves.
God did not make me this way, the devil did. Ever hear of the fall of man? Well, that was the devil. And being gay is part of man’s fallen nature. So don’t go blaming the Lord for our problems. You can’t just take a sinful part of your nature and claim God made you that way and then go just do whatever you please.
OK. You’re not real. Nice job, you’re an amazing troll (no one would act like this who’s a Christian – even a crappy, delusional one).
And who made the devil? There is nothing that happens on this earth (or anywhere else) that God does not permit.
You have the right to make your own choices. If to you, homosexuality is wrong, you have the right to abstain. But you have no right to judge what another person does. So do what you want to do, but don’t go looking down your nose at other people who make different choices. What makes you so certain that God will not say “Well done, good and faithful servant!” to them instead of to you?
I don’t believe this for a second.
What don’t you believe, mi amor?
I don’t believe you’re gay. And wow, could you get any more creepy? That’s a serious question, do you realize how many people are reading this and watching you be a smug asshole on a thread about a little boy who is devastated and sobbing in a video? You you care at all about what people think about Jesus after watching you behave this way? The owner of the blog had to say something about your behavior and you’re still acting like a dick. It’s so shocking when Christians do this and feel like you can challenge the authenticity of peoples’ beliefs.
No I don’t either. You are a sick troll getting your perverse kicks out of your arrogant smugness. Nothing more.
There is bullying in Families, there is favoritism in Families , it’s part of the Culture. But, we are Human Beings.
Angemarie
Favoritism and Bullying should never be in any Culture. In the greek text there are 4 words for Love. Apage is the highest form of Love. Thats what I was told. Apage for God and Parents and our significant others. I see a place we Apage one another and there is no bullying, favoritism, prejudiced, sexist, religious, ect…
Be The Change YOU Wish to See in the World.
joe I mean Joe speak speak dont let them shut you up far out man have some balls you guys who a trying to shut him up you shut up morans!
All I can read here is you Christians should be ashamed of your selves talking to Jim like that wha once understood what he said who once looked past the hurt in jims post frankly you christians have alot to learn how dare you and I am saying it to you bullies, you the bullies, self rightepus hypacrites, how dare you make a man feel giulty for voiving his opponoion. what is this all about common guys, this man Jim is being honest and you dont hvave the guts or the balls to see through you stiff necked attatudes and you block peaple from their words and its wrong enough is enough leave jim alon you bunch of mnatzies. he is not bulling him, his saying yes mate but you can get up stand up and stop taking shit from poeple!!!! oh i have nothing good to say my tone is not good but i satand by it and I am not goung any where,,,,,,…..jim who gives a shit what they are saying who care if you wernt compasionate rellay guys get a grip you really annoy me you blaa blaa blaa at everyone and you cant even even love your selves and you will say I cant iether by thios message but i got nothing good to say to you right nopw I wont refrain or leave the computewr and you wont push me around. Jin you speak speak speak….you sopeak you others guys shut up you so mean!
Christian, honey, you’re going to have to improve your spelling and punctuation if you expect us to understand any of your ranting. If you’re talking about those who were criticizing Joe…well obviously you’re just as angry as he is, or you wouldn’t be defending his original comment. And you know what? He apologized for the inappropriateness of it, and we’re all on his side supporting him. We fight injustice of any kind, so we are not your enemies here. Take a breather, and come back when you’re ready to make sense.
I grew up in the late 40s-mid 60s in a small town in Texas. Gays were a subject that was never talked about, even in private. I knew I was different from others at a very young age. I liked girls, enjoyed dating a few, but all of my crushes were on boys. And these crushes started at a very early age before I had any sexual understanding or feelings. I was very confused about myself. This confusion led to me being a very despressed and made me feel more alone than you could ever understand. I had no one to talk to about it, and never met a person I knew was like me until my second year in college. Thru college I tried to be like everyone else, I met a wonderful young woman while a senior, dated for over a year, loved her deeply, and we planned to marry. After several months I broke up with her because I knew in my heart that I cared and loved her so much that I could not marry her, because I knew that our relationship would some day end because I would never be able to spend the rest of my life living a lie, I could never do that to her and possibly to children we might have.
I never acted on my feelings for another man untill after I was 25 years old. I had a couple of relationships that each lasted for 2 or 3 years. In 1980 I met someone , and we lived together for 31 years untill he died last May. I have never regreted the life I have had, only that so many people are unwilling to understand that the only choice I made in life, was to be the person god made me, and to do it proudly.
I WAS BORN GAY. IT WAS NOT A CHOICE I MADE. THE ONLY WAY I COULD BE ANY OTHER WAY, WOULD TO BE LIVE A LIE! TO NOT LIVE A LIE IS THE ONLY CHOICE I MADE, AND I REFUSE TO BELIVE MY GOD WOULD HOLD THAT AGAINST ME! WHY SHOULD MAN?
Ron, I am sorry for your loss. You have led an HONEST life. I will never understand why my fellow “straight” citizens think your lifestyle would/should/might have any effect on them. I hope your memories of your partner are all happy ones and the pain of your loss will soon lessen.
I want to thank you for your reply.
My story was only background to try to get people to understand the statment in caps. The statment in caps was all I really wanted to say. No one I have ever met wanted to be gay. It is just who they are, and no one would be gay if it were a choice. Why can so many small minded people not realize and understand that, because life would be so much easier if none of us were gay. So many find it so easy use the bible to justify hate for any one different.
Ron, much love to you. Lots of people have never had a devoted partner of 31 years. You must miss him terribly, I can’t imagine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KuCRKaofhm4. One of Jonah Mowry’s bullies apologizing, we are watching an amazing story unfold before our eyes on the eve of 2012. Can you see the possibilities, when the bullied and the bullies unite, we’ll have a new way to fight for the future of our children.
Wow, I just watched that and I don’t know if it is bad Christianity that causes it, or sometimes just contributes to it greatly…but what I do know is how damaging bullying is for any kid for any reason. I was bullied mercilessly in school and I can even remember cutting myself a few times…thankfully I did not continue the practice but I remember the hopelessness and despair that drives one to do that. I don’t think there was any special religious significance associated with my being bullied; I think kids can just simply be cruel when they detect any weakness or difference in someone. I think religious zeal CAN fuel their passions, but in all fairness, when kids get going they don’t need any help with it. I just wish there was a way to stop it once and for all – for all kids – for all reasons.
Hi, all. I got too busy today to properly monitor the comments. I apologize for that. I’ve just now gone through and deleted the comments to this post that were just too noxious/toxic to allow. But that leaves a lot of responses TO those comments now just sort of … randomly hanging there. Again, sorry. But if you read a comment that seems to be a response to a comment that isn’t there, trust that you’re better off not having read the original comment. Thanks, you guys, for your patience—and especially for the love, intelligence, and compassion so many of you show. It’s a wonderful thing. Sorry again for not doing a better job today of keeping this site from becoming any sort of showcase for the kinds of toxic hatred of which we’ve all, God knows, had enough.
Thank you, John.
It won’t let me reply to your other post. (Which I should probably take as a sign, but I’m putting off writing a paper.)
I have no use for comments like these. They’re not helpful in any way. But Truth Wins Out has also done good work. The world isn’t black and white, and I can condemn the bathwater of religiously intolerant posts without throwing the baby out alongside it.
I’ve never claimed to speak for all LGBTQ folk. I’d love to see you quote where I do. You, on the other hand, have put words in my mouth several times, claiming to know what my idea of justice is, for one. (Perhaps you’re projecting?)
I am a Christian. Obviously I don’t hate Christianity. I’ll continue to challenge those who claimed Christ’s name when they called me slurs, or when they told me at 16 that I was a threat to children, or when they told me I was predestined to hell. But I adore Christianity and Christians. If I have a bias, it’s toward my faith, not against it.
My son IS gay and I love him as much as any mother can. These hate posts make me sick.
I was really touched by John’s story; what a brave kid. Thank you, mr, so much for supporting the gay community.
Leanne, as a zygote, men start as female and remain so until the Y chromosome is introduced. Using your logic, their “default” is female so they shouldn’t feel utterly and completely male upon birth and into adulthood. That doesn’t make any sense.
Like it or not, you simply do not have the last word on what being a homosexual is like for a homosexual. Many Christians believe that the Bible provides us enough authority to have the last word on the state of being for others who have absolutely and completely different life experiences than we do. So consider that your opinion of what the Bible says isn’t exhaustive – you’re just like any of us, all we have is our opinion offered to us via an interpretation that someone we trusted gave to us. And you’re choosing to hold on to that interpretation because it serves you.
The real question is how it’s serving gay men and women and if the fruits of your expressed beliefs are damaging to them. They would say that without a doubt, yes – that for them your “disagreement” translates into serious emotional, spiritual and psyhological peril. The only difference between you and them is you can walk away from me saying that, dismiss it all-together and your life isn’t changed. There’s is still impacted by you. You have to ask yourself why you’d place your comfort level which seems to be having the last word on what being “gay” is instead of the discomfort of opening yourself up and really listening to what *they* tell *you*. Are you willing to listen? Or do you have too much to lose if you really listen? Only you know that. Tell yourself the truth.
I’m talking about “default” in the sense of when people are finished developing physically enough to be born. And yes, I believe they are people from the moment they are conceived. I don’t understand the whole thing about me having the “last word” because I never said I have the “last word.” Where sis that come from? But yes, we all have opinions and we are all entitled to disagree. I just find it interesting how everyone demands Christians be open to being okay with homosexuality, but non-Christians are not willing to be open to the idea of not being okay with it. Isn’t the pressure on us to change our views damaging as well? Are you willing to listen?
You said that being gay isn’t a core part of somebody, even though tons of actual gay people would strongly disagree, myself included. That gives the impression that you think you know better what the gay experience is than those actually living it. Hence, you feel like you get to have the ultimate word on what gayness is, where it comes from, what it’s like, etc.
You being open to accepting others doesn’t do you any harm. You asking others to be open to the idea that who I am is morally not okay? That does actual harm.
So don’t change. Continue to hate on people who are different than you and pout when you get called on it. One day, you will face the Lord your God and you will find out whether he commends your behavior of “calling a sin, a sin” or whether he condemns you for causing pain to those he considers to be his children.
God, you’re self-involved. There’s not even enough of a shitty, fake, pseudo-argument in there for me to address. Go live your life and leave the rest of us who are trying to bring about some justice alone.
Ah. Troll. Fuck off, then.
Look, I’m against people being jackasses to each other in general, gay or straight. Which obviously you’re not. Anybody bashing Christianity, I’m gonna have a problem with, as a Christian. Ad hominim attacks, I’m always gonna have a problem with, no matter who’s making them.
The fact that you have to resort to quoting people from other websites who have nothing to do with the conversation at hand, rather than dealing with those of us here and the arguments that we’ve made shows well that you can’t.
Leanne, for goodness sake, we’re not disagreeing over infant baptism or some kind of theology. Me telling a grown woman that you’re wrong about homosexuality and putting pressure you on you to listen isn’t going to cause you to KILL yourself or believe you have to live a life without God because you have a sin that you can’t change, as much as you try. At best it will hurt your feelings and give you permission to walk away from a conversation so you don’t have to face it. There’s absolutely no comparison, gay kids have to live in the world that your beliefs have created.
Let me say this one more time – your beliefs about gay men and women being condemned before God because of their “choice” of homosexuality drives kids to suicide and it causes tremendous psychological, spiritual and emotional damage. And I’m not making this up, you can read it for yourselves.
And I’m a christian by the way. A big one.
I don’t understand the whole thing about me having the “last word” because I never said I have the “last word.”
OK. If you’re really willing to give gay men and women the last word, you’ll allow them to tell you that they can be actively gay and still Christian and no repentance is required and you’ll just accept it and never question or debate it.
Nice job here DR, Diana, and Kara.
yes. amazing stuff. next BOOK stuff.
Hang in there, John. You are a beautiful strong kid fighting for yourself and many others.
Just get through you teenage years with pride, and adulthood will bring you a beautiful life. We love you and honor your suffering. Survive! Grow! Protect yourself.
First of all, the boy says he’s going into eighth grade…Jr. High is a horrible time for being bullied, especially because it’s during the vulnerable transition from childhood to adulthood, becoming a teenager. Their bodies are changing, they want to be cool, and it is an especially impressionable time. Kids can be absolutely cruel to one another. I like his perseverance, though, in deciding to not give up. As far as being gay…it’s true that he never says that he is. “Gay,” “fag,” and “homo,” among other names he’s been called, are quite commonly NOT exclusively used for people who are actually gay. So does anyone know if he actually is? In addition, he never targets Christians as his antagonists. Even if they were professing to be Christians, just because people say that they are Christians does not mean that they are true Christ followers. John 13:35 says (and yes, I am quoting a Bible verse), “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” True Christ followers, though we agree with what God says about homosexuality, are to be loving and not cruel. Hate the behavior, not the person. If I see someone cruel claim to be a Christian, then I assume they hold the unfortunate misconception of what a Christian truly is. I’m sure my comment will be highly disagreed with, but then, we are all entitled to disagree.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone claim that the kids who bullied him were Christians. But the culture created by a church that loudly and frequently preaches the moral inferiority of gay people is one where, like it or not, kids who are gay or are believed to be so are prone to be targeted.
“What God says about homosexuality” doesn’t exist. There’s nothing in the Bible that speaks to homosexuality.
You can’t hate a core part of who I am and truly love me. You can claim to, and that’s fine. Same with Jonah. To love him is to create a culture where people of all sexual orientations are valued equally, without qualification.
The idea of “a church that loudly and frequently preaches the moral inferiority of gay people” is, indeed, the most heard of probably because it is so loud and obmoxious. But that is a blanket statement for everyone who goes to church. There are both, people who go to church who agree or disagree with it and people who don’t go to church who agree and disagree with it. Like I said, not everyone who claims to be a “Christian” is a true follower of Christ. Unfortunately, there are people in churches who give true Christians a bad name by being so cruel. But there are Christians who do not treat homosexuals that way. I certainly don’t view gay people as inferior. They struggle with things I may not necessarily struggle with, but then I struggle with things they may not struggle with. Either way, we all struggle with things and we are all imperfect. I am no better than anyone else.
And actually, the Bible, God’s Word, does speak about homosexuality. 1 Timothy 1:9-11: “understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” There are more references in the Bible to homosexuality. I recommend you read it and pull apart verses you find to see what it says. You might want to try different versions of the Bible too, like NASB, ESV, NIV or New King James. There are lots.
And I disagree that it’s a core part of who someone is. A person’s default is not to be gay. By default, we are born heterosexual beings. I have a close family friend who I have grown up calling my my cousin, who I have been really close with growing up, who was most definitely not born gay, but became gay in late high school. I don’t like his behavior at all and it’s only made him more empty. But I love the heck out of him. I’m still close with him. I still call him my cousin and always will. I would never say cruel things to him about it. All I can do is love him. Love has nothing to do with agreeing and adopting the same views. Love has to do with accepting someone despite disagreement.
And I disagree that it’s a core part of who someone is.>>>
Why in the world would you believe that you get the last word on what the core of anyone is?
A person’s default is not to be gay. By default, we are born heterosexual beings. >>>
“By default”, all embryos are female until the male chromosome is introduced. So given your logic, men shouldn’t feel “male” because they started as female.
But again – what is your basis for your assertion? Or is this just your opinion? As a straight woman I’m shocked that another straight woman would have the arrogance to announce who someone is at their core possessing absolutely none of their specific life experience.
I have a close family friend who I have grown up calling my my cousin, who I have been really close with growing up, who was most definitely not born gay, but became gay in late high school. I don’t like his behavior at all and it’s only made him more empty.>>>
First, gay men and women are often closeted to the point of unconsciousness because they live in an atmosphere that would be so terrifying to come out, they push it down. Surely you have to be educated enough to know how common this is. Gay kids who are Christian are the #1 suicide risk group – they are terrified that their parents will be disappointed in them, will reject them. That people like you will reduce their love and hope and deepest desires and call those “behaviors”. Treating them like animals, reducing them to just sexual acts (which is exactly what you’re doing).
That’s not love. You *want* that to be love but that’s not love. You’re hurting people with your belief system, with the horrible way you reduce being “gay” down to a list of behaviors. That’s like someone taking your marriage and reducing it to the number of times you and your husband have sex. That your love, respect and devotion for one another have nothing to do with your “sexuality”. It’s exclusively about your vagina and his penis.
Isn’t that repulsive? Isn’t that disrespectful of you? Well welcome to how you make gay men and women feel every day as you “love” them while at the same time, reducing their hearts and minds that desire love and relationship into acts of sex that someone could just as easily pay for. You cheapen and degrade them which is entirely your issue. Not theirs. And it’s time someone told you the truth.
Wow, that’s pretty full of misunderstanding. Number one, I don’t decide who the core of someone is. God is the one who made us and He says what we are. Two, yes, I know this about the closet and the fear, which is understandable. I wouldn’t mind seeing where you got your statistics, though, on gay Christians being the #1 suicide risk group. That sounds really interesting. Third, I am not reducing sex itself to a mere “act.” It is a wonderful and intimate experience, which God created, but He created it to be experienced between a married man and woman. If you think about it, two men and two women are physically incompatible with each other when it comes to sex. I’m sorry for your disgust for the train of thought you think I have.
Your biases are showing when you say that gay couples are physically incompatible for sex. There’s nothing that keeps gay people from having healthy, mutually fulfilling sexual relationships.
Number one, I don’t decide who the core of someone is. God is the one who made us and He says what we are>>>
You just said “I disagree that it is a core part of who someone is ” and you are now saying that you didn’t JUST say that? Are you reading what you’re writing? “God” and “Leanne’s opinion about what God says about our core are not one in the same. Do you notice how you keep interchanging the two? That’s a little scary.
I wouldn’t mind seeing where you got your statistics, though, on gay Christians being the #1 suicide risk group. That sounds really interesting. >>>
It’s a quick Google search and was also featured in a Christianity Today issue. Focus on the Family has acknowledged this number is valid but instead blamed it on self-hatred for *being* homosexual that was intrinsic. The Trevor project has quoted those numbers. Gay teens are the #1 most likely group to kill themselves and those from religious homes are even more vulnerable. John did an interview with a leading expert, I’d read that article.
Third, I am not reducing sex itself to a mere “act.”>>>
Of course you are. You’re the one who in reference to your cousin talked about his “behaviors”. Clearly those are the “behaviors” of a homosexual.
If you think about it, two men and two women are physically incompatible with each other when it comes to sex.>>>
Oral and anal sex don’t occur with married couples? With all due respect do you live underneath a rock? Married people have this kind of sex all the time.
“If you think about it, two men and two women are physically incompatible with each other when it comes to sex.”
That will come as a shock to my husband. We fit together just fine, thanks. We can’t make babies, together, no (though we’re still trying!), but the sex is just wonderful, physically and otherwise.
Who is it that isn’t thinking about it?
I completely agree with what you said–with one exception. Human embryos do not all start female until the Y chromosome is introduced. The Y is there (or not there) from conception. The genitals form at 6 weeks. Until then, they are both/neither male and female. This has been a long-standing myth of human reproduction that just isn’t true, although it is true in some other animals.
But anyway, I still agree with what you’ve said otherwise, and I will stop hijacking this discussion now.
Science! (good to know, appreciate the added info).
I’ve read 1 Timothy. And Romans 1. And Corinthians, and Leviticus, and every other text that has been mistranslated. Koine Greek only has words for things people knew about at the time of its use. Homosexuality is not one of those things. That word was invented in the 19th century. So if you see “homosexuality” in any translation, it is wrong. Paul can’t talk about homosexuality any more than he can a rocket ship or Freudian psychology.
Also, as a queer person, lemme just jump in and say that you’re wrong. My being gay is woven into me from the core. I was raised by Southern Baptists; my whole family condemns homosexuality. I had literally no incentive to “choose” to be gay. I didn’t choose to be gay.
That said, I’ve learned to embrace the difference. I didn’t choose my height or my handedness, whether I sang alto or soprano, my preference for cheesy food and hate for okra. But they’re part of me. If you take my gayness away, I’m not the same person anymore. It’s absolutely foundational to who I am. That is the reality of my life, the life I personally live every single day. So unless you can give me a really good reason to believe the claims you’ve made – “we are born heterosexual beings”? – then I’m going to have to conclude that you’re speculating based on what you want to be true; what backs up your theology.
Mistranslated? God is all-powerful and, therefore, preserves His Word throughout the ages. We have more and older copies of manuscripts of the Bible than we do of Homer’s The Odyssey and The Iliad. But Apologetics is a whole different issue.
So if the word was invented in the 19th century, then the entire idea of homosexuality didn’t exist until then? It’s not a modern issue. The Corinthians and 1 Timothy and many other books were written by Paul in which he talks about homosexuality. Even if he didn’t use the “offical 19th century term” I guarantee you there are Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic terms for it (all three of which are languages the Bible was written in). I can find out what they are if you want.
So, you grew up Southern Baptist and had no incentive? Does that mean you had absolutely no exposure to homosexuality growing up then? All your growing up years you knew that was your preference? I find it interesting that identity is so heavily emphasized on sexuality. I’m straight but I don’t rely on that for my identity. It’s a fact about me, but it’s not who I am any more than my job is who I am. Even if I were a lesbian, I would still be me.
You are perfectly entitled to think I’m wrong and it is clear we have different beliefs. Honestly, we could get into a whole debate here trying to convince each other of this or that, but I don’t think any reason I gave would be good enough for your reasoning. I will not accept your beliefs anymore than you will accept mine, so there is really nowhere else to go from here.
Okay. Small words this time.
We have lots of copies of Greek manuscripts. In Greek. Which has different words than English. If I take an original text then tell you it says Jesus liked to eat banana pancakes for breakfast, that’s not God’s failure to preserve something, that’s me saying stuff that’s wrong.
The word was invented in the 19th century, and yes, the idea didn’t really exist before then. Not like we think of it. The idea that you’re somehow proving that it did by saying Paul talked about it is circular logic. Paul did not refer to homosexuality in Corinthians or Timothy. There are absolutely not Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic terms for “homosexuality.” In Rome and Greece people didn’t think of sex as a gender thing, it was a power thing. Who was screwing and who was getting screwed, not gender. I’d love to see you back up your guarantee.
No incentive. I got run out of my church. My youth pastor told me I was going to hell, and a danger to children. My first crush on a girl was at age 12. I prayed for years for God to “fix” me, make me “normal.” Took years to realize I was like God made me. Being gay is only a part of my identity because it matters to other people. It affects my relationships with my family, my friends, with churches, with God. If other people would leave it alone, it wouldn’t be core for me. Ironically.
You can toss your hands up and walk away, claiming that neither of us really have any evidence. But I think that’s a cop-out. There are facts about the texts. There are facts about the cultural homophobia that has shaped the ways that people have chosen to read the texts over the years. And you can’t just hand wave them away. People are living this fight every day, and we’re not going anywhere. We can’t afford to.
do you tell him he’s Empty? and that he’s more Empty because he’s gay? or you only say that behind his back? cos that’s not cruel or unloving or anything… (sarcasm)
No, I do not tell him that. Funny you would assume I would. Maybe he told me.
Did he or didn’t he?
Does “hate the sin, love the sinner” apply to these bullies as well? Also, being gay is not a behavior. It is an essential part of someone’s being, as innate as being lefthanded or red-headed. All are minority characteristics, but not an aberration.
Please view above response. Thanks.
And yes, it totally applies for bullies as well.
I choose door number three. I want what’s behind the curtain.
Apparently, however, Mr. Shore doesn’t want me to have those options. If I am to buy into his reasoning, this poor kid is being picked on because of me. It’s my fault. I put the second grade class and following for five years up to picking on this child.
I am an Evangelical, Fundamentalist Christian, and NO, I do not accept responsibility for what has happened to this, or any other child who is being bullied. For whatever reason.
I choose the third option. I choose to love this child, as Christ would have. I choose to defend him and his dignity. I would also tell him why I choose to do that. I have been given the option by God himself, the author of my Faith. I would explain that there is a friend that is closer than a brother. I would show him that if he has a relationship with Jesus Christ, he will never walk alone.
That’s my choice.
If John Shore has his way, he will use this video to force me to choose. I have to either condone sinful behavior (supposed, assumed by Mr. Shore), or stone him because of it. I choose neither.
If there is sin in his life, God is capable and intentional about dealing with it. That is not my job. I would answer any questions he might have and do so in love.
I watched the video, and I’m saddened, disheartened, and more than a bit enraged by it. I would love to know the entire story, what has happened before, and since. I sincerely doubt he was being picked on for actually being homosexual. Considering this started in second grade, it seems unlikely.
Love your answer, Bruce! I agree.
Bruce may choose #3 but what he doesn’t get to choose or control – nor do you -are the consequences of you expressing your beliefs. We have heard the direct testimony of hundreds of gay men and women on this forum that your decision to reduce them down to a set of sexual behaviors and tell them that if they don’t repent of these behaviors they are going to hell sent them into emotional, spiritual and psychological turmoil that many have to spend years in therapy overcoming. And you are willingly continuing to express those beliefs here.
So do it. Talk about them loudly and proudly. But step out of whatever kind of childish thinking that’s telling you that because you believe they have some kind of holy backing that you’re exempt from the damage. This is your mess to clean up. The gay men and women who were kicked out of their homes when little because their loving christian families couldn’t handle their “behavior”? That’s on you. You have chosen the side you’re on – so face and deal with the consequences. No one is picking on you, all we’re doing is making sure you’re aware of the impact. Even though I’m sure your intention would never be to harm anyone, I believe that. But you don’t get a pass because your beliefs are rooted in the Bible. This boy in a second video did say he was gay – there are THOUSANDS of these little boys who believe you when you tell them “repent of this behavior or you’re not saved”.
And they can’t, they don’t know how. So they lock themselves away with your voice that tells them that they can’t ever be forgiven because they don’t know how to repent from the impulse of wanting to hold hands with a boy. They can’t, it’s like you “repenting” from being female. You believe you’re pointing them down a road to salvation when in fact it is a total dead end road. So do it if you feel convicted but face the consequences. Their blood is on your hands and anyone who comes onto the Internet and expresses what you just did in a public way.
All other things being equal, are gay folk inherently less moral than straight folk by virtue of their gayness?
If you answer yes, although you condemn bullying – and I believe you mean it – you’re still providing kids with the ammunition they need to justify their behavior.
Also, your statement that John has asked anyone to condone sinful behavior contains assumptions that you have not acknowledged. In this space, you’ll generally have to defend claims that homosexuality is sinful. It’s not self-evident.
Wanting something to occur and bearing some level of responsibility for that thing occurring are two different things. And, like it or not, the idea that homosexuality is dirty and immoral on religious grounds plays a large role in enabling the bullying of thousands of kids. Like it or not.
First of all, the HIV-panic bullshit erases lesbians, who are far less likely than straight men or straight women to get HIV from sex.
Second, this isn’t about sex. As much as fundamentalists want to reduce being gay to sex, it’s not accurate. We’re talking about the lives of kids who haven’t had sex just as much as the ones who have. Bigotry doesn’t care about what you’ve actually done, just how they can label you.
I care about the health and welfare of every kid, gay, straight, or otherwise. Including their emotional health. I want them to know that they are beautiful and valuable, that they don’t have to ever do anything that they don’t want to, that there are ways to be safe if they decide to have sex, and that they can have healthy relationships. But I don’t pretend that claiming conversion is a viable way to help these kids. It isn’t. Denying the reality that someone is gay isn’t looking out for their welfare either. It’s not going anywhere.
This response shows that you have absolutely no awareness of what is happening in our school system today. First, please put your ego away this isn’t about *you* and your injured ego. The only reason “faggot” is a slur is because those of you who interpret the Bible in the ways you do – who suggest that children like this one are condemned to hell for being gay because it’s not something they can “repent” of – attached “bad”, “wrong”, “sinful”, “repulsive” to being gay in the first place. So take some responsibility for why “gay” is a slur to begin with.
Second, hundreds of gay men and women have testified that they knew they were gay from a very young age. And kids knew it too. I know you don’t want to believe that – you probably aren’t terribly open to any thought that’s going to make you reconsider you might be wrong on this – but you are.
So start doing some reading. Read what gay men and women say about your belief system and how they *literally* had to survive it.
No one is forcing you to adopt, select, and lean into these particular interpretations of Scripture you’re doing that all on your own. So you’re not a victim of anyone. You’re not being spiritually attacked. You’re not being persecuted or unfairly misrepresented. You believe that being gay is a sin – that it’s a choice – and people are telling you directly to your face the impact it’s had on *them*. I don’t think you’ll listen to them, I think it will be way too scary for you to give the last word on the impact you and your beliefs have had on them (even though I’m sure you’d be horrified to realize it). But who knows, I hope I’m pleasantly surprised.
“I sincerely doubt he was being picked on for actually being homosexual. Considering this started in second grade, it seems unlikely.”
1) So, if he is actually gay, it would be okay for him to be picked on, right?
2) It’s actually very small comfort to a person being picked on that the things being said of him/her are not technically true. It’s the being picked on that is painful, not the truthfulness of statements being used by the bullies.
3) As I stated elsewhere, though you probably haven’t had a chance to read that, bullies don’t care whether what they are saying to someone is the truth or not, they simply care about causing pain to that person. So if calling someone an “abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz” is considered derogatory and the bully believes that s/he can make somebody else feel horrible by calling him/her that, that’s what the bully will do.
4) In our culture (this is changing but not quickly enough) homosexuality is still considered controversial, especially among those who are of certain religious backgrounds, including Christianity. A sort of default Christianity is still the majority religion in the United States. Fundamentalist Christianity in particular makes a point of screaming that homosexuality is a sin (to the point that it sometimes seems like it’s the only “sin” that matters to them), while too many of the mainline Christian churches have maintained an appalling silence/tacit approval in the face of this viewpoint. Like I said, this is changing, but not quickly enough. Thus, this attitude promotes a view that homosexuality is a bad thing.
5) Bullies pick up on the notion that homosexuality is considered “bad” in our culture and thus pick at those whom they consider to be homosexual. They also use terms relating to homosexuality as slurs without caring whether the person they are picking at is indeed homosexual (please see point #3.)
6) So yes, Christians who promote the view that homosexuality is sinful, or who tacitly approve this viewpoint by refusing to speak out against it, are indeed responsible for creating a culture in which it is acceptable to bully others for homosexuality/perceived homosexuality.
this is why being gay is not about just sex. lgbtqi people consistently report that they themselves, and often family members, “knew they were different” from an early age … ages like 3, 5, etc.
often they had less gender-conforming preferences than other kids, etc.
“I sincerely doubt he was being picked on for actually being homosexual. Considering this started in second grade, it seems unlikely.”
There you go again, equating homosexuality entirely with adult sexual behaviors. I can tell you with absolute assurance that I can look back at things about myself in my preschool years – the actors on TV that I had crushes on, the things that I was interested in, the ideas that caught my attention, and the mannerisms that I had – that I subsequently had to learn obsessively to hide for my own safety – that clearly were the early indications of the gay man I would grow up to be.
Saying that a second-grader can’t be gay is as ridiculous as saying that a second-grader can’t be straight. And yet, nobody blinks twice at mapping innocent pre-sexual heterosexuality onto kids, and letting them have crushes and friends (and strongly discouraging signs of “inappropriate” same sex attractions.).
If you don’t think that second graders can be, or can be seen as “sissies,” then you don’t know the second-graders I’ve met. Or the one I once was.
“I sincerely doubt he was being picked on for actually being homosexual.”
What does it matter what this kid’s sexual orientation actually is? I seriously doubt the kids who are bullying him really care. All they care about is that “gay” is a dirty word, something they’re allowed to use to belittle and make fun of and fling around as an insult, because so many adults and churches do the same.
I only dealt with heavy duty bullying for one year (thankfully I had the option of transferring), but it consumed me and made me miserable. I was small for my age, dressed differently (I was obessed with the 1920s and 1930s, and mostly wore suits from vintage stores — not an unobtrusive choice in the mid-70s).
The most therapeutic thing I did was chop wood. As my technique improved, I was able to forget about aiming the axe, and just let it fly with maximum leverage and effort. Before long, I was cleaving my tormentor’s head in one blow.
I also would write and talk about elaborate revenge fantasies. I can’t believe I was never sent to a therapist. The demented shit I would say, with a gleam in my eye, was pretty disturbing.
I don’t know what the solution is. For the individual, it is finding tools to cope. I just wish there was a solution that put enough of a burden on the bully that they decided the price was too high.
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