“Being gay is a sin. I spread love to the world.”

by John Shore on January 17, 2012 in Christian Issues · 300 comments

In the comments section to my recent post, An Open Letter From Christians to Gay People, a guy showed up using the screen name “The Word.”. Here is most of what “The Word.” wrote:

I’m a Christian. I strive towards becoming Christ like in all aspects of my life. But I fail; I fail miserably and am no where near perfect. I have sinned; I should go to hell. So should you, and you, and you as well. Humanity is imperfect, and we do not deserve anything. But that being said, you have to bring God into this. He loves us. He loves us so much he sent his one and only son to die for us on the Cross. Jesus died for our sins. All of them. Every time we’ve lied, every time we’ve cheated, looked at someone with hatred. Every sin is equal in God’s eyes.

If you have ever looked at a woman with lust, to God you have committed adultery. If you have ever looked upon someone with hate, you have murdered them in His eyes. None of us are deserving of heaven. But for some reason God has chosen to pour out his love, his mercy, and his forgiveness. He’s given us a way out. And all we need to do is believe, and every sin has been washed away.

That being said, I still say that homosexuality is a sin. In the same way that my own sexuality is a sin. I (like so many other men in the world) look at porn. I am not proud of it, I do not like it, and it makes me feel so much worse for the rest of the day. I do it; I am deserving of hell. But in the same way that Jesus forgives me, he forgives anyone of the homosexual orientation. I have confessed my sin, but I still live in it, wallow in it, and stink with it’s stench. But I am free, by the love of Christ I am free. I believe that someone living in homosexuality is capable of going to heaven for that reason. Because Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High, died for that person. And if that person were to recognize him, then he would set them free.

I love all people, as God does. And I do not view anyone as less than I do. I accept that homosexuality is not a choice, it is very hard to get rid of, almost impossible. I cannot just ask God to make me not attracted to women. It doesn’t work like that. I can try and control it, but I cannot hope for perfection. I think that I am ineligible to become a pastor, because of my sin life. I think that many people are not eligible, even people that currently reside over churches. We’ve let our guard drop so much, we’ve let sin into our lives so much. In the same way as I wouldn’t want someone who watches porn, or drinks, or smokes cigarettes to be a pastor, I don’t want a homosexual to be a pastor. Sin is sin. I love people, I reach out, I befriend. I have never belittled anyone based on their sexuality, nor will I. I am truly sorry for those of us who reject Christ’s notion of love, and choose to hate. That is not God.

I carry no emotional baggage whatsoever. God is love. Without God there would be hell for all. How I act upon my sexuality towards women is a sin, in the same way that acting upon your sexuality towards the same sex would be a sin. God doesn’t hate anyone. We all deserve Hell, which is why we NEED God. God loves us, he forgives us, regardless of how much we sin, as long as we believe that through him and his love there is salvation. To sin is to deviate from God’s will. I reference the entire Bible. There are six references to homosexuality throughout; go and find them, you will be surprised I’m sure. Six. Why on earth would God reference homosexuality six times if it wasn’t a sin? Sure, if you look at the one in Leviticus, which is filled with laws only commanded to certain people groups, then I can see how you don’t view it as sin. But if you combine it with the five other times, it becomes solid fact. The number of times he talks about a man becoming one with his wife should clue you in.

I have done no damage, nor does my theology do damage. I spread love, peace, and acceptance to the world. Not hate, anger, or intolerance. I have done my research, I have studied. … Sexuality is a gift, the greatest gift, and we should treat the greatest gift with the utmost respect, out of reverence to our high and almighty God. God does not tempt, the flesh tempts. God does not punish. Hell is simply absence from God, from his most eternal love. I doubt it is what we like to depict it as. It is just a world without God. An entirely human, and entirely broken world. The Truth shall reign through. The Word is with me.

God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, in the perfect garden, in the perfect place. All was right, all was as it was intended to be. That is God’s plan. That is how God designed it. When we chose to refuse that, to eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we chose to forsake that. And everything became tainted. Everything became broken. With that brokenness became sin of all form—not brought on us by God, but by ourselves. That sin includes homosexuality and bisexuality.

Sexuality in it’s purest form, in what God designed it to be, when everything was perfect, is a gift. But with that gift there comes a curse, a curse brought upon ourselves. Jesus sent his son down to free us from that curse. I am susceptible to lust, as others are susceptible to anger, jealousy, greed, hate, slothfulness, and gluttony. We all have an area in our life that we struggle the most in, that we will fall in. But just because 99.9% of men look at porn, have lust in their hearts, and sleep with reckless abandon, does not mean that it is what God intended. Just because there is a growing population of GLBT, does not mean it is what God intended. I am within sin just as much as every man. I do not judge anyone based on their sin. I condemn all sin equally. I will not “support” sin. I will love everyone equally, spread acceptance, love, and peace to the world.

A day or so after closing comments to An Open Letter, I received an email from one Mike Moore, who wrote to tell me that reading the words of “The Word.” made his eyes bleed. He expressed his desire to have written a response to Mr. Word.

“If you want to do it now,” I wrote him back, “Feel free. I’ll post it.”

Mike took me up on that offer. Here is his response to “The Word.”:

John’s An Open Letter From Christians to Gay People sparked over 650 comments! That’s a great party: plenty of people to keep things lively, yet not so many that conversational threads get lost.

Not unusually, I arrived at this party late. (I’d like to say “fashionably late,” but what I was wearing at the time would only be considered “fashionable” in Seattle, circa 1991.)

Arriving late is often a good thing: the gang is on their second or third cocktail, and people’s conversation is well on the way to becoming slurred, funny, candid, and, as a rule, more interesting.

Unfortunately, by the time I arrived at John’s Open Letter, the party was almost over. All the good words had been taken. Thanks were well expressed. Sincere and thoughtful debates had been had. Most of what was worth saying had been said.

And, horrors, within minutes of my arrival, the comment section closed! End of party!

But (and I say this as a guy who believes that for every party, there is an after-party), I found I couldn’t move on. I was a bit shaken-up by one of the commenters, “The Word.”

Before I knew it, “The Word.” had gotten well under my skin.

“The Word.” set off my bells and whistles. Danger. I felt an unfamiliar hostility.

At first glance, it was only that he was using Someone Else’s Name. He was perpetrating identity theft on a grandiose, John 1:1 scale. Like using God’s social security number to get a Platinum Card.

Then there was the period. Unlike God, this guy wasn’t content to simply be “The Word”. No, he went a step further, and added a period: “The Word.”. As in, I Am The Word, Period. As in, End of Discussion. As in Don’t Question Me.

So, being a knee-jerk reaction sort of fellow, I was already feeling put-off by “The Word.”—and I had yet to even read his comments.

Then I read his comments.

Then I kind of hated the guy, without really wanting to. Because “The Word.” frightens me.

“The Word.” has twisted love and sex, sin and forgiveness, hell and heaven, flesh and spirit, and cigarettes and liquor into a strange, dangerous mental knot that I (and I daresay anyone else in the world) couldn’t begin to unravel.

The words of “The Word.” trigger my most primal fight-or-flight response. He reminds me of the guy who says so many of the right things while trying to get you into the back of his Ford van with the custom Serial Killer package. “The Word.” makes me think of the stranger offering candy.

“The Word.” feels like the 3 a.m. knock on the door when your porch light is out.

The reason I write this is honestly to learn: Is it just me?

{ 300 comments… read them below or add one }

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Andy January 31, 2012 at 5:50 pm

I can understand everyone’s frustration with this comment.

But…I wonder if ad hominem responses are the best way to respond to such a comment? If you really believe this commenter has made erroneous claims, why not engage with the arguments he has made and demonstrate exactly why they are wrong? The latter is surely a better way to argue, would give more credibility to our position, and seems slightly more Christian to me… (I say this as a massive hypocrite, fully conscious of the fact that I regularly resort to ad hominem attacks on a regular basis).

To practise what I preach, my own two-pence would be to take issue with the line: “Why on earth would God reference homosexuality six times if it wasn’t a sin?” and the subsequent reasoning. I’d ask ‘The Word’:
(a) How he can speak in such certain times of ‘God’, a being who is outside time and space, making references to something in a book which is the product of centuries of human reflection?
(b) Whether the argument by numbers really works? There are more than 6 references in the Old Testament to God ordaining or supporting war, for instance…vs only maybe 3 or 4 in the New Testament which exhort believers to peaceful behaviour. Should all Christians then support war, because there are so many more references to war than to peace?

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Sharon Bowler January 27, 2012 at 8:18 pm

I think every person alive has either broken or been tempted to break each and everyone of the 10 commandments. Sure, most haven’t killed anyone. And I suspect a lot of us haven’t committed adultery. But when you know the words of Jesus you know we really have.
However, those of us who are not gay or any of the other letters on the rainbow alphabet are not tempted to do those things.

For example, I am not even slightly tempted sexually by women. So, that leads me to think homosexuality is a different thing than sin. Because I sure know I am tempted to steal, dishonor my parents, covet, not love God, etc.

My 2cents.
Sharon

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Will January 27, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Thanks Sharon. That is a very well thought out distinction.

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Ray Bagnuolo January 21, 2012 at 5:19 pm

Hi John,

Thanks very much for your blog and recent piece on the new form of Presbyterianism coming out of the “Fellowship.” Most troubling is the violence being stirred, again, by the unwillingness of religious bodies (existing or soon to be formed) that refuse to understand how their exclusion is complicit in the hatred that exists towards others. How could faithfulness ever be seen as a catalyst for violence; a prime indicator for me that something is truly amiss in a particular choice or direction.

As an openly gay man who was ordained in 2005 in the PC(USA) and serves an inner city ministry in NYC for people marginalized into homelessness, poverty, and invisibility there is no such thing as loving others while hating their sin. I continue to hear that directed toward me and others and find the inherent smugness weary and ignorant. There is only loving others.

And this discussion of the “gay issue” or “gay ordination issue…” We are not an issue – none of us. Calling human injustices and discriminatory practices issues is a deft way of turning people into objects and manipulating them at a distance as if they were not living breathing creations of a loving God but pieces on a game board. It is an attempt to comfortable “play God.” (Clearly a game humans lose.)

I think this “objectification of people” is some form of a spiritual and mental illness that feeds the erroneous belief that to be faithful we need to be divisive and dismissing toward others different than us. Faithful is still what it always was – loving one another because we are loved by God. It includes the challenges and work of finding understanding (not tolerance) of one another, and using that love and understanding to walk together on a spiritual journey destined for love and justice, clearing the path of small and narrow loyalty tests. Benchmarks designed to disguise the fear and sadness that oozes from them.

I believe that God is greater than all these ways we find to distance ourselves from one another: read distance ourselves from God. For any move away from one another is a move away from God. I believe we can come together, especially in the PC(USA) and find ways to bring The Word to those that still suffer. Not The Word of “This or That” – but The Word that calls us to love our God with all our heart, soul, and mind – and one another as ourselves. In the case of some of us, maybe we need to try loving one another better than we love ourselves.

Peace,
Ray Bagnuolo, Minister PC(USA)
New York City

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Line Merrette Vincent January 21, 2012 at 11:52 am

I am a professional translator (not in the field of religion though) and I also took one year of theology at the undergraduate level (they call that a “certificate” here).

The Bible I know is the French one (I am a Franco from Québec) mostly the ecumenical version (TOB) or the everyday French ones. (Not all French Canadians are Catholics, by the way. I have been a Lutheran for many years. Off topic.)

My ex mother-in-law is in a church associated with the Assemblies of God (but the problem is more widespread than that, to many “evangelical” confessions). They rely on the Louis Second translation, which dates back to 1910. I can understand many people my age and older know whole chapters by heart, BUT since 1910, our knowledge of old civilizations and languages has progressed and new sources have also been found.

But they disregard this and stay attached to their old version. It has a lot to do to their fundamentalist, verbatim viewpoint. I for one am not a fundamentalist. It seems to me as if they are adoring a book, i.e. an old version of the Bible.

Also, I find fundamentalists put too much weight on the Old Testament (and the exotic punishments therein). Didn’t Jesus accomplish the law for us? Where is the “glorious freedom of the children of God”? Where is the “not man or woman, free person or slave, etc.”?

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Line Merrette Vincent January 21, 2012 at 11:55 am

Louis Segond, sorry.

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Saddened January 20, 2012 at 8:52 pm

Although chilled and reaching for pepper spray as I read “The Word.”, I’m also extremely saddened by them. Those are the words of someone who has likely been broken by years of psychological, physical, and/or sexual abuse with a religious chaser; an unhinged, deeply repressed anger screams throughout “The Word.’s” writing. I cannot imagine what kind of journey would be necessary to salvage one such as “The Word.”, but as I believe in God, I do believe there is hope for him, but only if the shame and rage don’t destroy him first.

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Wendy Young Callaway via Facebook January 20, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Lyn is my hero!

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Rudy January 20, 2012 at 6:41 am

Love it. Absolutely love it. I have made a few comments on my blog and in open letters to people suggesting that we need to be more loving and accepting of the gay community, and nothing puts a wet blanket on a conversation with an evangelical more effectively than this topic. God is LOVE. Enough said.

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Lynette Cowper via Facebook January 19, 2012 at 11:34 pm

Aha! This is why people are making Facebook comments specific to me. I wondered. Thanks, folks!

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candide January 20, 2012 at 11:45 pm

Lyn. Do you ever post comments on HuffPo? Your pro-gay, theologically sophisticated voice would be most welcome in the exchanges that take place there in both the Gay Voices and the Religion sections. There are a lot of rabidly anti-gay, Bible-based bigots who post there. We need all the help we can get in confronting them. HuffPo has a huge readership, so what you say would have some impact. Cheers!

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Lyn January 21, 2012 at 1:24 am

I’ve been known to make comments here and there around the web, but the only HuffPo post I know I’ve commented on for certain was the news article about the new Indiana specialty license plate supporting the LGBTQIA teen outreach organization, the Indiana Youth Group. For the most part, I was focusing on why the IYG is needed, not the theological problems of the anti-gay rhetoric being tossed around.

I’ll try to make it a point to be more proactive when I do end up at an article there in my day.

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otter January 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm

Lyn,,,I loved your analysis of the clobber translations as written on John’s letter of apology. I sincerely hope you have your scholarly and fascinating comments compiled somewhere accessible to those of us who are sometimes on the front lines.

“The Word ” made me gag. What an arrogant poser! But some good has come of it, I think. For his comments and others like his prompted me to post the following on several facebook pages. I think/hope you will find it thought provoking.

Every couple of weeks another gay teenager is assaulted or commits suicide. It makes me ask myself “How much suicide, abuse, assault poverty, homelessness, despair, bullying, injustice, discrimination and suffering do you think law abiding people in America should endure?” Doesn’t sound like your vision of America, does it? But it happens every day. And people defend it because of a handful of two thousand year old, mis-translated Greek texts. Unbelievably, most churches would rather be “right and moral” than examine their role in promoting, condoning,and in some cases supporting mental, physical and emotional violence. Well, I think it’s horrible, unconscionable, indefensible. And I want to know why more true believers are letting the haters go unchallenged? Why do yo tolerate your church being hijacked by extremists, terrorists, Mysogynusts. The next time you hear an anti gay remark, visualize someone beating you up, Because that is what they ARE doing to everyone gay person who hears
it. And why people who know better keep silent is something I would love to understand. I can’t decide if its insecure, lazy or complacent. What do YOU think?
Have youworked on LGBT issues within your faith community yourself???
How did it go?? Did things change as a result of your dialogue.

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Lyn January 19, 2012 at 11:02 pm

If you go to any of the websites where they offer a map or directory of open and affirming churches and click on Indiana, I’m on the map smack between Indianapolis, where there are scads of open and affirming churches, and Bloomington, where there are three or four. There is absolutely nothing within 45 minutes of our house remotely resembling an open and affirming church.

We attend the church I grew up in, which is an independent Christian Church. As is typical of the denomination, the church has no official policies on anything. Their stance is “Where the scripture speaks, we speak. Where it is silent, we are silent.” Of course, they pretty much take the word of the translators, meaning they understand the scriptures to condemn homosexuality. But they don’t actually talk about it much, so I’ve held my tongue.

However, I got into it with the youth minister over my own Facebook page because he felt I might “confuse” the youth. Please, note, on my Facebook page, I’ve pretty much maintained the stance of “Persons of homosexual orientation have a place in the church, bring unique talents and perspectives to the body, and are, like heterosexuals, called to a life of holiness.” He, however, didn’t feel it was “profitable” or “beneficial” to publicly state that lgbtqia people were welcome in the church. I disagreed. Vehemently. This led to my resigning from a youth sponsor position and warning him that he would be held accountable for every lgbtqia teen in the church who committed suicide or fell away because of his intractability.

And… that’s pretty much where I am. Other than spending a lot of time with a lot of the kids from the local GSA sitting around in my kitchen sharing their lives and questions.

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Lyn January 19, 2012 at 11:10 pm

Which is to say, I don’t think it went well, though I have been made aware of a girl in my church who is on the lgbtqia rainbow spectrum and had been feeling very, very unwelcome and not particularly interested in church because of it. So, it’s not been a total loss, and I’m hoping some of the folks at church are at least engaging in some thought on the issue due to various Facebook posts. I’ve had a few occasions where folks have quietly sidled up to me and said, “You know that thing you said on Facebook Friday? I think I’m with you.”

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otter January 20, 2012 at 9:48 pm

Kudos to you for your valiant effort, blessings for your generous story….

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Nathan Taylor via Facebook January 19, 2012 at 9:52 pm

Very good

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AC Smith via Facebook January 19, 2012 at 9:18 pm

Lyn says what I always wish I could say. Somehow, it never gets out of my mouth with such eloquence!

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Mary Wisner Miller via Facebook January 19, 2012 at 7:30 pm

John, her post made me cry, gave me goosebumps, and made me wish that I could have dinnner with her one day. <3 Lyn.

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Dennis Killian via Facebook January 19, 2012 at 7:23 pm

Great…

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Gary January 19, 2012 at 7:01 pm

I have gone back and read the recent posts of this one who calls themselves “LK”. I seriously hope this person is a simple troll. Because if they are sincere…then the road ahead for any hope of enlightenment for fundies just like him/her is very long indeed.

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LK January 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

To make it short and sweet –

There is no ‘being gay’, just ‘doing gay’– according to Genesis, Leviticus, Judges, Romans, Corinthians, Peter and Revelation, (specifically).

And remember — ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, (according to Scripture).

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Lyn January 19, 2012 at 5:16 pm

There are numerous discussions online and on this very blog of the 6 clobber passages you are referencing incorrectly. Go and study to show yourself approved before you attempt to join a discussion. It harms your witness when you make statements from ignorance as it indicates to non-Christians that Christians do not have or know how to determine the truth.

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LK January 20, 2012 at 10:05 am

Those passages DO clobber the lie thatthis type of sex is ok, or that youre born that way. Notice these passages start with the first book of the Bible and end with the last book. They occur in between those as well. Old Testament to New, first to last and in between. Think that’s an accident? There are many passages that speak more generally about sexual immorality that can be added to the list which this activity falls under. So from first to last the word of God that I study every day speaks against sexual immorality and specifically this type of it..

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Gary January 20, 2012 at 10:17 am

What passages? All you have done is list a collection of book titles?

Is this your idea of exegesis?

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Lyn January 20, 2012 at 10:47 am

Ooooh! Can we all play? Let’s throw a bunch of book titles out there. Here: I can find passages in Genesis, Exodus, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, Proverbs, Daniel, Amos, Matthew, Luke, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, James, and the Revelation that support my viewpoint. Go read them all! Come back when you’re done.

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Gary January 20, 2012 at 11:11 am

I think they are still looking for the word exegesis in their dictionary.

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Cindy January 20, 2012 at 10:28 am

Seriously, for someone who studies the bible everyday, you should at least know where the passages you consider so important are found. Especially if you’re going to make up some high importance to attach to their location. None of the so called “clobber passages”, the only few passages in the bible that reference what might be seen as homosexual acts (any references to homosexuality are modern re-interpretations as the concept did not exist), are found in Revelations. So with your whole beginning to end thing, you just shot yourself in the foot. Of course, it must be pretty difficult to aim anywhere other than your own foot when you spend all your time looking down your nose, so good job on hitting your target. I commend you for your diligence.

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c'mentista January 25, 2012 at 3:21 pm

Viola!
Rev 21:8 and 22:15 call sexual immorality – as in any type of fornication or lustful actions or thoughts – sin. That covers gay sex. Any place in the Bible that condemns sexual immorality is speaking not only of man to woman relations, but man to man and woman to woman relations as well.

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Will January 25, 2012 at 9:37 pm

c’mentista, you are saying that gay people are mentioned in Revelations under the term ” sexually immoral.

But a case could be made that certain Bible-thumping, holier-than-thou, stone-throwing types are mentioned in that same paragraph. File them under cowardly, vile, idol-worshipping liars.

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8 New International Version (NIV)

W. W. J. H.
Who Would Jesus Hate?

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c'mentista January 26, 2012 at 10:32 am

NO, I’m not saying what you say I’m saying. I’m saying that homosexual ACTS are included under the umbrella term ‘sexually immorality”. Those who practice homosexual ACTS are acting in a sexually immoral fashion. These days those who participate in these acts, however, just say –”oh I’m programmed that way from birth ” its my identity. But you know, that’s not the Biblical view. I’m stating the BIBLICAL view. Your’e stating the post 1970′s secular view and insisting it’s God’s view.

What Would Jesus Hate?” — Sin

He didn’t condemn the woman caught in aduterous fornication, but he did speak to the sin she committed when he said “ “Go now and leave your life of sin.” (John 8:11)

Notice how ever how she didn’t protest, “but I’m an “adulteress”, I was born this way, it’s my God given identity, I can’t help it, hey, who are you to tell me it’s sin or to stop doing it……..

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Gary January 26, 2012 at 9:28 am

The only thing you can show is that sexual immorality (whatever that is) is condemned here. You don’t get to put your spin on it and declare it to mean homosexuality because it clearly doesn’t.

But I agree that whatever a sexual sin is (hint: it involves violating the law of love) it is applicable to all sexual relationship types.

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c'mentista January 26, 2012 at 10:33 am

Its not my spin its called sin in many places in Scripture

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Gary January 19, 2012 at 6:48 pm

sigh

Seriously LK? A drive by based on your perversion of scripture and then you run and hide like some scared dog with your tail between your legs??

Either discuss with integrity…or just shut the hell up. Seriously!!

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otter January 19, 2012 at 10:43 pm

Does that go for the bit about stoning adulterers? You know that bit, right?
Newt better learn to duck!

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Lyn January 19, 2012 at 11:19 pm

Perhaps LK attends a church where they check to see if the women are on their periods and don’t let them attend– or their husbands if the husband has touched them.

I have a couple friends who have committed an abomination. Not only an abomination, but specifically an abomination before the Lord! I’ve considered whether or not I should tell them that their relationship, their lifestyle, is an abomination, but they’re agnostics. I just don’t think I should be imposing my religious views on them, though obviously if they were to convert, I’d have to bring their abomination to their attention.

You see, they were married to each other and then got divorced. They had other relationships. Then they got remarried to each other.

I hope they’d understand that if they were to become Christians, they’d have to cease their sinful lifestyle.

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sdgalloway January 20, 2012 at 6:35 am

There is a bit of a problem with that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God” claim. When it was penned, it was in reference to the Old Testament only, as what was to later (by a couple of hundred years) had yet to be compiled. It was written to Timothy in the form of letter. I seriously doubt that Paul, Luke and others had a clue that their letters, or representatives of them would later be considered canon.

So in that, you have to dismiss the entire NT for that assessment on all things gay. I won’t even start on the OT ones.

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otter January 20, 2012 at 9:51 pm

when I read posts from people who state that being gay is just behavioral, I always wonder if it is their OWN behavior that informs their assertion…..

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Lyn January 20, 2012 at 11:45 pm

I just wrote a blog post on this, actually (here: http://rindle.blogspot.com/2012/01/on-claim-of-gay-as-choice_20.html if you’re interested). I’m not sure I got everything quite the way I wanted to say it, but here’s my observation. Every time someone comes and argues the “It’s a choice!” side, if they actually share personal experiences rather than just going with drive-by Levitical threats, they invariably share some experience where they turned down a same-sex encounter. So, yeah, I’ve concluded that the argument comes from two things– 1) bisexually oriented people who have chosen not to express anything but their heterosexual side (or have “repented” earlier same-sex behavior) who 2) conflate orientation with activity. Since, for them, homosexual behavior WAS/IS a choice that they have rejected and since they believe who you have sex with = orientation, they believe orientation is a choice. The rest of their argumentation, that gays and lesbians choose to act this way when they could act otherwise and are, therefore, rebelling against God’s plan, logically follows from this mistaken and somewhat narcissistic everyone’s-experience-is-just-like-mine base belief.

This is somewhere where I totally fail to wrap my brain around the base worldview because I have yet to meet a woman I am at all interested in or attracted to, so thinking that there might be people whose sexuality is like mine, only in reverse, isn’t a reach at all. I know my sexuality isn’t a choice, therefore, I can’t claim any moral superiority for not “choosing” to be gay. I can’t claim any moral superiority for not “choosing” to be bisexual. Neither of those were choices I could have even made.

But I’m thinking the people who are claiming moral superiority for “choosing” to be straight? I think they really are seeing it as a choice they made. It just isn’t the choice they think it is. It was a choice of what they did with their sexuality, not what their sexuality is in the first place.

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otter January 21, 2012 at 6:23 am

Well that is probably an accurate analysis in a lot of cases. I claim Gold Star status but I know several women who were married, had kids and did not identify as lesbians until later in life. At the point their attraction to women developed, they decided that to force themselves to stay married to men would have been a dishonest choice and a disservice to all. It was not something they did lightly and the ones I know managed it without too much drama. This notion of rejecting sexuality with one gender as sinful and accepting the other as righteous arises from an utterly false paradigm that is being driven by a self perpetuating spiral of archaic values, flawed translations, judgment, guilt and fear. And it can result in dishonest, unsatisfying relationships …..imagine yourself or your child marrying someone who is forcing themself to act straight! Straight people would be so much better served by joyfully celebrating gays who marry each other! Doesn’t anyone stop and THINK how horrible it would be if a gay person married a straight one under false pretenses??

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Lyn January 21, 2012 at 2:38 pm

I love the movie “For the Bible Tell Me So” for revealing the problem of a gay person in a straight marriage. Two of the people presented were in straight marriages and the stories of their struggles is heartbreaking, for all concerned.

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B1empath January 19, 2012 at 1:52 pm

I could only read to the point of “I carry no emotional baggage whatsoever. ” To me that’s like saying, “I don’t breathe”. I also started getting a headache before that, the same kind I used to get after I initially accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and I would listen to secular music, and my little spirit man inside started jumping up and down saying that “The Word.” is evil. Oh and I do listen to secular music now without issue, but in my early days of being a Christian, I think God wanted me to submerge myself in things that would edify my little spirit man.

I have learned to trust my little spirit man and the other signs God has given me when things are not ‘right’ or that I shouldn’t ‘go there’ feelings come about. “The Word.” makes it sound like God said sex is sin and I don’t recall ever reading anything like that in the various versions of the Bible that I’ve read. I think the Song of Solomon would have to be deleted if that is the case. Also, what does drinking have to do with anything? I mean Jesus’ first miracle was to turn water into wine so the party could go on. Oh, wait, isn’t enjoying oneself at a party a sin? Oh, wait, I think that anything enjoyable is a sin. I hope you realize that I’m joking here.

God created us in HIS image. God gave up a portion of Himself, His Son, to die for our sins so that ALL may come to Him through the blood of Christ. Everyone wants to put all of the old testament stuff onto the new, however, Jesus said that He brought a new law, so the old are now just guidelines. After the disciples tried to bring Jesus’ message to the Jews and were rejected, Jesus told them to shake the dust from their sandals and to take the Word to the remnant, to the gentiles, to any of those who would listen and believe. Jesus came in love and that is what I believe He wants of us today. To have a powerful, united church in His love… and I don’t mean a physical church, but a unity of spirits.

When we reject/hate/speak against/whisper about/seethe about another, for what ever reason, we are allowing evil to rule us, instead of accepting the human being before us as one of God’s creatures that He created and that we should all love. Where’s the love folks?

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carly robinson January 19, 2012 at 10:29 am

Then quit reading, Stephie. ‘Cause you don’t get it.

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Stephie January 19, 2012 at 8:53 am

Your entire website causes division, and a house divided against itself will fall.

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Gary January 19, 2012 at 10:30 am

What an interesting observation. Especially since EVERY church I have ever been a part of causes deep division.

Stephie what goes on here is seeking harmony. Not all are willing or capable of walking in harmony. But those who would promote injustice and hatred are the ones who bring the greatest “division” to the body of Christ. God’s love compels many of us to attempt to bring others into “harmony”, for God’s perfect love breeds harmony.

Your drive by comment strikes me as very disingenuous in that what I think you really mean to say is you don’t like John’s views, and therefor you engage in a silly proof texting of Jesus words badly out of context. Until we deal with these issues which divide us in a mature and respectful way (rather than throwing bible quotes at each other like schoolboy kids hurling snowballs) the church will remain divided.

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mike moore January 19, 2012 at 11:41 am

Stephie, have you considered, perhaps, that you are the one causing division?

Of course, you could be right …

We sure don’t want to take a highly divisive (heretical) stand against burning innocent women, oops, I mean witches, at the stake. World is round? Ending slavery? Newtonian physics? Sorry, those issues are way too divisive, better let ‘em slide. And those damn Protestants, have you noticed how they broke off from the Roman Catholic church? Of all the nerve.

Then there’s allowing women into church leadership roles or, heaven forbid, ordaining women? Whoa, no can do, that will split the church right down the middle. Reporting pedophile and abusive ministers to police? Heck no!! Imagine the divisions that could create.

Birth control, divorce, having wine with your dinner and a cigarette after, marrying your same-sex partner of 26 years, abortion, voting Democrat, singing and dancing … wanting universal healthcare for all citizens, opening our doors to immigrants, protecting our planet from environmental destruction … we have allowed all these deadly serious and/or silly things to become “wedge issues” because people would rather hold on to their dogma than to their brothers and sisters.

My advice, Stephie? If you don’t want your house divided, then put down the saw and try some good conversation here at John’s house.

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Diana A. January 19, 2012 at 1:37 pm

You said it way better than I did. Thanks Mike.

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Gary January 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm

No doubt better than I did as well. A fine post.

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otter January 19, 2012 at 10:39 pm

Mike…TRUE POST!
The farther we move from conventional “wisdom” the greater the possibilities for positive growth.

If we never associate with minds that needs changing we never change any minds.

No Echo chambers here!

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Diana A. January 19, 2012 at 1:31 pm

The division is already here and has been since at least the late 1970′s. It’s just that now the Christian Left is finally speaking up. Or, as some would put it, the meek are getting ready.

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LK January 19, 2012 at 4:25 pm

this house isn’t build on the rock, it’s build on the sand.

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Gary January 19, 2012 at 6:50 pm

Seems as if one sentence pieces of criticism pretty much exhausts your reasoning abilities. Sad really.

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Nan C January 20, 2012 at 1:14 pm

Not built on rock? Here’s my take on things, from words believed to be Jesus’ own words from the Sermon on the Mount:

1.Love God with all thy heatt and all thy mind and all thy soul. (a bit vague on just how to do that, but here’s a hint:)
2.Love thy neighbor as thyself. (Huh. But he’s a jerk! Any more hints? )
3.Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you (even do good unto them that spitefully use you – and that takes care of the jerk neighbor) And in case there were still questions as to just how to go about that:
4.As you do it unto the least of these my brothers, you do it unto me.

There’s yer rock. The very basics distilled down from a whole lot of words.

(I’m still working on numbers 1 & 2. Also 3 and 4, I admit)

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Lyn January 20, 2012 at 11:49 pm

Yeah, I don’t think any of us quite perfect any of those. It’s a good thing God doesn’t insist of perfection!

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Gary January 22, 2012 at 6:29 am

Best summary on what is our primary purpose and calling I may have ever heard. And I love the wit thrown in with it. Bravo…well done.

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