In the comments section to my recent post, An Open Letter From Christians to Gay People, a guy showed up using the screen name “The Word.”. Here is most of what “The Word.” wrote:
I’m a Christian. I strive towards becoming Christ like in all aspects of my life. But I fail; I fail miserably and am no where near perfect. I have sinned; I should go to hell. So should you, and you, and you as well. Humanity is imperfect, and we do not deserve anything. But that being said, you have to bring God into this. He loves us. He loves us so much he sent his one and only son to die for us on the Cross. Jesus died for our sins. All of them. Every time we’ve lied, every time we’ve cheated, looked at someone with hatred. Every sin is equal in God’s eyes.
If you have ever looked at a woman with lust, to God you have committed adultery. If you have ever looked upon someone with hate, you have murdered them in His eyes. None of us are deserving of heaven. But for some reason God has chosen to pour out his love, his mercy, and his forgiveness. He’s given us a way out. And all we need to do is believe, and every sin has been washed away.
That being said, I still say that homosexuality is a sin. In the same way that my own sexuality is a sin. I (like so many other men in the world) look at porn. I am not proud of it, I do not like it, and it makes me feel so much worse for the rest of the day. I do it; I am deserving of hell. But in the same way that Jesus forgives me, he forgives anyone of the homosexual orientation. I have confessed my sin, but I still live in it, wallow in it, and stink with it’s stench. But I am free, by the love of Christ I am free. I believe that someone living in homosexuality is capable of going to heaven for that reason. Because Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High, died for that person. And if that person were to recognize him, then he would set them free.
I love all people, as God does. And I do not view anyone as less than I do. I accept that homosexuality is not a choice, it is very hard to get rid of, almost impossible. I cannot just ask God to make me not attracted to women. It doesn’t work like that. I can try and control it, but I cannot hope for perfection. I think that I am ineligible to become a pastor, because of my sin life. I think that many people are not eligible, even people that currently reside over churches. We’ve let our guard drop so much, we’ve let sin into our lives so much. In the same way as I wouldn’t want someone who watches porn, or drinks, or smokes cigarettes to be a pastor, I don’t want a homosexual to be a pastor. Sin is sin. I love people, I reach out, I befriend. I have never belittled anyone based on their sexuality, nor will I. I am truly sorry for those of us who reject Christ’s notion of love, and choose to hate. That is not God.
I carry no emotional baggage whatsoever. God is love. Without God there would be hell for all. How I act upon my sexuality towards women is a sin, in the same way that acting upon your sexuality towards the same sex would be a sin. God doesn’t hate anyone. We all deserve Hell, which is why we NEED God. God loves us, he forgives us, regardless of how much we sin, as long as we believe that through him and his love there is salvation. To sin is to deviate from God’s will. I reference the entire Bible. There are six references to homosexuality throughout; go and find them, you will be surprised I’m sure. Six. Why on earth would God reference homosexuality six times if it wasn’t a sin? Sure, if you look at the one in Leviticus, which is filled with laws only commanded to certain people groups, then I can see how you don’t view it as sin. But if you combine it with the five other times, it becomes solid fact. The number of times he talks about a man becoming one with his wife should clue you in.
I have done no damage, nor does my theology do damage. I spread love, peace, and acceptance to the world. Not hate, anger, or intolerance. I have done my research, I have studied. … Sexuality is a gift, the greatest gift, and we should treat the greatest gift with the utmost respect, out of reverence to our high and almighty God. God does not tempt, the flesh tempts. God does not punish. Hell is simply absence from God, from his most eternal love. I doubt it is what we like to depict it as. It is just a world without God. An entirely human, and entirely broken world. The Truth shall reign through. The Word is with me.
God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, in the perfect garden, in the perfect place. All was right, all was as it was intended to be. That is God’s plan. That is how God designed it. When we chose to refuse that, to eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we chose to forsake that. And everything became tainted. Everything became broken. With that brokenness became sin of all form—not brought on us by God, but by ourselves. That sin includes homosexuality and bisexuality.
Sexuality in it’s purest form, in what God designed it to be, when everything was perfect, is a gift. But with that gift there comes a curse, a curse brought upon ourselves. Jesus sent his son down to free us from that curse. I am susceptible to lust, as others are susceptible to anger, jealousy, greed, hate, slothfulness, and gluttony. We all have an area in our life that we struggle the most in, that we will fall in. But just because 99.9% of men look at porn, have lust in their hearts, and sleep with reckless abandon, does not mean that it is what God intended. Just because there is a growing population of GLBT, does not mean it is what God intended. I am within sin just as much as every man. I do not judge anyone based on their sin. I condemn all sin equally. I will not “support” sin. I will love everyone equally, spread acceptance, love, and peace to the world.
A day or so after closing comments to An Open Letter, I received an email from one Mike Moore, who wrote to tell me that reading the words of “The Word.” made his eyes bleed. He expressed his desire to have written a response to Mr. Word.
“If you want to do it now,” I wrote him back, “Feel free. I’ll post it.”
Mike took me up on that offer. Here is his response to “The Word.”:
John’s An Open Letter From Christians to Gay People sparked over 650 comments! That’s a great party: plenty of people to keep things lively, yet not so many that conversational threads get lost.
Not unusually, I arrived at this party late. (I’d like to say “fashionably late,” but what I was wearing at the time would only be considered “fashionable” in Seattle, circa 1991.)
Arriving late is often a good thing: the gang is on their second or third cocktail, and people’s conversation is well on the way to becoming slurred, funny, candid, and, as a rule, more interesting.
Unfortunately, by the time I arrived at John’s Open Letter, the party was almost over. All the good words had been taken. Thanks were well expressed. Sincere and thoughtful debates had been had. Most of what was worth saying had been said.
And, horrors, within minutes of my arrival, the comment section closed! End of party!
But (and I say this as a guy who believes that for every party, there is an after-party), I found I couldn’t move on. I was a bit shaken-up by one of the commenters, “The Word.”
Before I knew it, “The Word.” had gotten well under my skin.
“The Word.” set off my bells and whistles. Danger. I felt an unfamiliar hostility.
At first glance, it was only that he was using Someone Else’s Name. He was perpetrating identity theft on a grandiose, John 1:1 scale. Like using God’s social security number to get a Platinum Card.
Then there was the period. Unlike God, this guy wasn’t content to simply be “The Word”. No, he went a step further, and added a period: “The Word.”. As in, I Am The Word, Period. As in, End of Discussion. As in Don’t Question Me.
So, being a knee-jerk reaction sort of fellow, I was already feeling put-off by “The Word.”—and I had yet to even read his comments.
Then I read his comments.
Then I kind of hated the guy, without really wanting to. Because “The Word.” frightens me.
“The Word.” has twisted love and sex, sin and forgiveness, hell and heaven, flesh and spirit, and cigarettes and liquor into a strange, dangerous mental knot that I (and I daresay anyone else in the world) couldn’t begin to unravel.
The words of “The Word.” trigger my most primal fight-or-flight response. He reminds me of the guy who says so many of the right things while trying to get you into the back of his Ford van with the custom Serial Killer package. “The Word.” makes me think of the stranger offering candy.
“The Word.” feels like the 3 a.m. knock on the door when your porch light is out.
The reason I write this is honestly to learn: Is it just me?
Additional Reading in Christian Issues...
- From hell to Crazy Town
- They’re here; they’re queer; they’ve plenty to fear: LGBT students form secret club at conservative Christian university [now including updates]
- When evil is serious, it reaches for a Bible and cross
- Guest post: “A Good Week to Hate Christians”
- From gay-hating fundie to righteously angry lesbian. Now what?
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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If people “confuse” homosexuality with incest or paedophilia, it serves a purpose for them (avoiding cognitive dissonance, I guess).
I am not an expert in logic but I am pretty sure someone could find faulty reasoning (from a purely logical point of view) in his exposé.
I also venture to say this person’s view of sexuality is warped and unhealthy.
The Word’s discourse is in my view typically Catholic (old-school Catholic). He seems like someone who has a somewhat heretical view of sexuality, a bit like the Shakers or the Perfecti of the Cathars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism who believed that the material world is inherently evil and refrained from having sex. Mind you, a lot of priests in the lower rungs had (and some still do, I guess — I no longer am Catholic) a very negative view of sexuality outside procreation. And it is tragic that after condemning the Cathars the Church went on to teach that sexuality is inherently sinful intercourse for procreation only, pleasure is sinful… like in Quebec in the 1940s) and that homosexuality is downright an abomination. The very same heresy they condemned.
I still cannot get over the idea that God is also creating homosexuals (probably to teach us “thinking outside the box” of prejudice) and that rejecting homosexuality is therefore rejecting God’s Creation.
There are many ways of using porn and not all of them are sinful, I believe. Some kinds of porn are dangerous and degrading and everyone has a line he/she will not cross. I believe a lot more people are using porn than they are willing to admit.
I hope this makes some sense.
I am an un-abashed universalist. Not always – was raised Southern Baptist (hellfire, damnation – the whole kit and kaboodle (does anyone know what a kaboodle is?) and then migrated to American Baptist, now Alliance Baptist (way too many labels), but Baptist no less in a more old-world sense of iconoclastic and independent – me and God workin it out together under Grace kinda guy. Oh, and I’m ordained too. And gay. It’s this last point that lead me to universalism, that heretical idea that God’s Grace is so powerful and so complete to drag everyone across the “finish line” eventually – even kicking and screaming if need be.
What struck me very hard by The Word (period) was his statement, “I carry no emotional baggage whatsoever (period).” Truthfully, many of The Word.’s words impacted me, but mostly this line. I wasn’t offended by him – Lord, we’ve heard it all before; just ask a Republican candidate for President – so much as his words made me deeply ache for him, almost cry for him and all those who have been sooooo messed up by a twisted gospel that lays ” all the heavy” on humanity when in truth we’re all struggling just to get by with what understanding of this life and God and purpose we happen to stumble across in this life’s journey. The Word.’s level of denial about emotional baggage is palpable. His delusion immense. His pain is almost overwhelming. He is the lost inside of the Church and so sadly he is clueless about his lostness. It is almost as if the freedom to simply “be” that comes with Grace is so horrifically threatening. More sadly, he is not alone. Variations on this self-abuse; this flagellation of guilt that the Church has historically and successfully used to beat their sheep into submission are seen everywhere we turn – in every denomination and Christian expression, no matter how liberal or progressive – the blood stains are still there. I know, for it has taken years of hard work for me to purge the shame and heal the wounds.
So, before we judge this brother to0 harshly, let us remember that he is only regurgitating the poison that’s been fed to him. Yet the poison has been in his system so long and so deep in his veins that he may never be free to ever truly feed on Grace and be nurished. But that’s the funny thing about Grace – it always seeps in where you think it can never reach – like water finding a tiny crack in the bulwark of your house. Grace always finds a way even when we deny it; even when we fight against it or try to deny it to others. So, I am asking that we each take a moment to pray for this sheep – he is one of our own afterall and he is us with a different history – pray for him to encounter the brilliant, clarifying, emancipating light of God’s Grace. May a candle be lighted in his darkness so he can finally see the face of Christ.
Amen.
This is beautiful, Russell. Thank you for such a poignant reminder of all that we face, that the one thing that turns we humans into tragic figures like The Word. is pain. He’s obviously suffered his share.
Amen. Thank you Russell.
Lord help him.
I honestly kept hearing “it rubs the lotion on its skin” in my head while reading The Word.
As an ordained “new thought” metaphysical minister, one point that has not been brought up directly is the whole “what IS sin” question. I do not believe in “Original Sin”. I DO believe in “Original Virtue”. I also believe that the ONLY “sin” is believing that the apparent duality of spiritual and material (physical) is ultimate “REALITY”. We are in fact eternal spiritual beings experiencing, by choice, a temporary human existence. In so doing, Love and Sex are the ultimate expression of “oneness” between two people and two spirits manifesting in the 3D dimension. Yes, without Love, sex can digress into lower forms of attention, as can most anything. Love is also the ONLY “real” emotion. Love is the reflection of all we are. All other emotions are subsets or progressively further away from Love just like believing we are separated somehow from God/Source, which we can never be. This is just like there is no such thing as “dark”, only the absence of light. (Proof – light a single candle in a room and then turn on the “dark” switch to hide the light from the candle.) What people like “TheWord.” call “sin” are simply mental constructs that allow them to separate themselves and those around them from God/Source. They have so bought into the lie of duality that they have completely forgotten who, and what” they “really ” are. They twist a literal interpretation of a limited set of Books to “prove” duality. Their argument then is actually the tool they use to create and prove the separation, to believe the duality, which is the “sin” itself.
I agree with the rehab comment, as a retired substance abuse counselor. “The Word.” is seriously self-deluded. He is going to end up self-medicating.
I have a question for “The Word.” (the name irked me too Mike Moore) or any of those other “Adam and Eve are the model for the only godly type of sexuality” people out there. If you believe that the creation narrative is a literal story and thus that God started the world out with only two people, one man and one woman, and told them to multiply and populate the entire earth, if they had not sinned, what option for godly sexuality would their children have had? I can see only two options. One – God’s “original intent” was that incestuous relationships would be the model of godly sexuality. Or two – God’s “original intent” was that Adam and Eve alone (while living forever since death entered by sin and such) would eventually populate the entire earth and all their children (everyone else) would be asexual. That’s it. Those are the only two options I can find. Which one was God’s “original intent” for everyone except Adam and Eve, incest or asexuality? Or am I missing something?
ooooo! Excellent question!
Love it. You have a very keen sense of logic Cindy.
I’m going to have to save this one for when I know I will need it in the future. Thanks, Cindy.
I have often wondered this myself, Cindy! Thanks for sharing it so articulately. I have asked this question of literalists a few times, and the answer I’ve gotten is that they had such good genes they didn’t have to worry about the health of the children. So I follow-up by asking if the only reason why incest is taboo in almost all cultures is simply because of the health the offspring–do we not value the family unit for other reasons? And, if that were true, then what about incest between sterile people? Of course it’s insane and splitting hairs, but that’s what getting caught up in the literalist/fundamentalist paradigm seems to lead to.
Well, regardless of whether you’re a creationist or an evolutionist, you have to deal with incest in the early human tribe. Incest taboos are interesting, because we tend to see them as universal, but what relationships are taboo varies widely from culture to culture. Go look at the history of Hawaii or Egypt and you’ll see they’re pretty blasé about sibling incest. Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings. Moses’ parents were close blood-relatives (she was his father’s sister) and their marriage was actually rendered illegal by the mosaic law. Not too long ago, it was pretty acceptable and legal for first cousins to marry. Now we look a bit askance at second cousins marrying.
So I don’t actually have an issue with the literalist interpretation that there was sibling incest in the early human tree because the same would have been true evolutionarily, too.
It isn’t until Moses that you get laws against incest and some of those laws are obviously dealing more with familial obligation and avoidance of the abuse of power rather than blood kinship (for instance, not marrying an unrelated woman who had been your father’s wife).
I guess I’m weird, but when people throw the whole “But that would mean they committed incest!” I’m just kinda like, “Yes. And?”
I agree with you Lynn. I also kind of shrug and say so? (Though I am a Theistic Evolutionist in my beliefs)
But the point that is so great about Cindy’s post is the way Adam and Eve are touted as “God’s design” and therefor the ONLY biblical standard, all the while being oblivious to the fact that if they were the ONLY biblical standard…then they must accept incest as part of that standard. All kinds of theological holes crop into such “biblical standard” thinking, not the least of which is why would god later forbid and condemn such an integral part of His creation design? Did He change His mind? “Thou shalt not have sexual relations with a member of one’s own family because OOPS, I kind of messed up that part in my original biblical standard.”
LK, I’m going to ask you, and the rest of you for that matter:
WHAT SPECIFICALLY IS THE SIN TO WHICH A HOMOSEXUAL OR ANY MEMBER OF THE GLBT COMMUNITY IS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING?
Hint: You can only use adultry if the couple is not monagamous, which equally applies to heterosexuals as well. You can use it as you will attempt to convince me , when they are NOT married. But, in some areas same sex marriage is allowed, and WE IMPOSE the non marriage status on our homosexual peers, so that is NOT the answer.
Leave Moses and Paul out of it, and research on your own. You have 2026 words Jesus Christ was purported to have uttered to choose from. Please share your findings.
Great challenge…though I see no reason to leave Moses and Paul out of it. (And I guarantee those who need to take you up on your challenge will cry foul for trying to exclude them) Moses’ and Paul’s comments can be dealt with quite effectively in proper context.
But I love the point I think you are making…that Jesus was so unconcerned with the issue that He NEVER even spoke about it.
Your paradigm is off.
There is no homosexual inborn identity accrording to God in his Word. God/the Bible says so by declaring those acts (same-sex sexual acts) to be sin. God/the Bible says so by making no provision for marriage between members of the same sex, which He had ( but DOESNT), would make a place for those acts NOT to be sinful .
“Born that way” is not God’s paradigm – its an invention of late 20th century people who want general societal approval for and normalization of homosexual sex. Some Christians have let go of Biblical teaching on the matter and adopted late 20th century ideas based on general socieital trend that encourage every type of sexual behavior (short of child molestation) imaginable.
By the way the entire Bible is ‘God breathed’ — its says so– which means that its ALL from God. That’s why you want to omit what Paul and Moses wrote down given by the Spirit of God to them to write–it doesn fit your paradigm –nevertheless God says Pauls and Moses writings are still from Him. Which shows the Biblical model you subscribe to is warped. Warped by your need to find approval for gay sex.
And by the way, Jesus said that marrage was between a man and woman. He quoted Genesis Chapter 2 on the matter in the gospels. That’s the ONLY model of marriage he subscribed to–the one written down in Genesis, by MOSES, according to tradition. In fact Jesus quotes Moses in other places on other topics too. Meaning Jesus knows Moses words were given to Moses– by HIM, Jesus, prior to his incarnation.
Please, show me a verse in scripture that says, “There is no inborn homosexual identity.” Here, I’ll show you one that says there IS– “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” Matthew 19:12
That’s Jesus speaking, by the way.
The verses that condemn it as sin do. Its condemned in the Old as well as New Testaments.
Jesus IS the Word, the Logos. That means He’s the Word of God, the source of the ENTIRE Word of God whether he spoke it while on earth or through a servant who wrote it down. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand much.
And what verses condemn homosexual orientation? Stop being vague or go away.
And I would agree that Jesus is the final say, which is why when he says there are people born that way, I take him at his word. Why don’t you?
never said that.
You don’t know how to study.
I know I say this every time — and every time I mean it; because, I swear, you guys get BETTER every time. There are so many reasons for so many to doubt that Christianity will ever be more than, alas, it’s so often been to so many. You guys obliterate such doubts, and replace it not just with hope, but proof of the change already at hand.
Right back at you, John.
Because of you, I have become open to having religion in my life again. And while it may not sound like a big deal, it’s somethin’, believe me.
Thank you.
Like The Word., I, too, tried to remove all ambiguity from my belief system, allowing me to act in a clear cut fashion in a black and white world. But then I experienced that faith is not fact, and if God can be proven, then what I am worshipping is not God. That truly is living in the absence of God.
Like the others here, I find The Word.’s comments sad and fairly disturbing. He sounds like a young man with some deep issues – and quite likely a porn addiction. The porn thing will probably subside with age, unfortunately to be replaced with some equally harmful fanatical, “I’m not worthy” fixation. However, all of what he writes is exactly what most evangelical churches teach weekly. That at conception we are all worthy of hell. How sad. They have bought the Great Lie of a weak faith. A faith that must contain, control, dictate and dominate. All you can pray for those people is that someday the Spirit will move within them and until then, that they confine their harm to themselves (which they rarely do). And yes, I do judge them. I judge them rather harshly for the harm they put out. However, I recognize that the harm is often out of ignorance and woundedness – and in many others selfishness too. But unlike them – I only judge them for myself. I leave God’s judgment to God alone. I use no man-made book to beat them up or validate my own self-righteousness. On good days, I can enjoy the complexity of all the devout oddities. On bad days, it’s a little discouraging. I think tomorrow I’ll make it a good day.
Enjoy the website – it’s a great voice that needs to be heard. Peace.
Thank you for this, TD. It was refreshing. And this: “On good days, I can enjoy the complexity of all the devout oddities.” May we have more good days than bad and be able to display such grace to our fellows.
I find the “The Word” strangely typical of a certain class in the Old World. He or she speaks like a proud Old World servant, whose family has served for generations, and whose humble service has become more demanding than could possibly be his lord’s command (and to his lord a hundred times more wearying).
“The Word” while acknowledging mortal imperfection (“I should go to hell. So should you, and you, and you as well. Humanity is imperfect, and we do not deserve anything”) simultaneously demands mortal perfection (“In the same way as I wouldn’t want someone who watches porn, or drinks, or smokes cigarettes to be a pastor, I don’t want a homosexual to be a pastor. Sin is sin.”) . So demanding! (“I do not judge anyone based on their sin. I condemn all sin equally.”) So proud!
It is a twist of Faith founded on passion without love, mercy without compassion, tradition without understanding.
I am having the same weirded out feeling with some of my own friends. What had started out as a conversation about not letting a dead rules style religion distract from the real relationship we can have with God turned into a not judging conversation. I mentioned that we are to judge others or we will never know what is real and what is just trying to bring us under human control. I pointed out that Jesus said to judge based on the fruits of the spirit (nurturing, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, excellence, faithfulness, and self-government). The response I got was that we are not to judge but to mirror others. In mirroring them they will then see Jesus. All people mirror and the bridge between them is Jesus. What? It went over big and I was the only one lost. The Word. reminds me of that conversation in a much stronger way.
Judgements are proclaimed (justly, injustly, lovingly, hatefully, whatever) and then when a discussion might challenge or dig deeper they retreat behind non-judging, we are all sinners, I am not one to speak for God-style humility that is really disguising the true action: dropping theology like bombs and running away. The Word. is adept at this. He makes judgements and then excuses himself from evidence and logic like the grace of God is a teflon coating.
Jesus said, “By patience posess your souls (psyches).” [Luke 21:19] But we still have a large church following that is suspect of psychology and logic. Paul instructed us to bring every thought into captivity to the truth. [2 Cor 10:5]
But these types of arguments are light on linear logic, historical, traditional, or personal evidence, and the only real conclusion of the argument is that none of us really can change, win, overcome, turn, adapt, etc. At best we believe in Grace the same way a child believes in the tooth fairy and we never apply any work to working out our own salvation. This logic is uncomfortably like strange loop logic:
The following statement is false.
The previous statement is true.
There is another disturbing reason people argue in ways where they and no one else can win. They are the kinds of people who, when their ultimate victory, and the praise and laurels that come with it, is unlikely they change the game to prevent anyone from winning. Or, maybe worse, they realize that the only prize in this life is Success, Truth, and Life and the idea of having only their own satisfaction and growth as an award is repulsive to them so they throw the game across the room and explain to everyone why it’s fine to play it but there is nothing there worth working for.
I agree with the right-speaking, twisted, get-in-my van vibe.
We “mirror” everyone? Like, say, I mirror Jeffrey Dahmer? Sorry, had to judge him. And alas, that same judgement is on The Word. Hate to say it, but that spirit has no fruit. Soon we’ll be reading about some dude murdering strippers and blaming it on his sin of porn. Guess who?!
Someone mentioned that most men do not view porn. A quick look at the research online estimates more like 50% of men view porn on a regular basis.
…and the other 50% are liars…
Am I right that this man’s thoughts pretty closely fall in line with the ‘welcoming but not affirming’ crowd? Come on in, your sin is no worse than ours. But we all know that if God gets a hold of you, you’ll drop your same sex partner just like Sister Wanda kicked the moonshine habit and either become celibant, or find an opposite sex partner in the church (just not a son/daughter of the leadership), marry and have children. Too harsh?
Sadly, I get that same feeling.
I suspect that’s what he’d say he thinks.
I don’t hang out with those people, nor their poor victims. But my guess is that, even if they do toe the line, “kick the habit” and force themselves into new patterns of behavior (which ALL the professionals, and all too many broken lives attest don’t actually change sexual orientation at all), they still won’t be welcomed and celebrated, but shunned and gossiped about.
Dan Savage, and no doubt, lots of others made a great point about ex-gays and those who say that’s what the Christian answer is for all gay people – ask them if they would want to marry an ex-gay person, or want their beloved straight brother, sister, or child to marry one. Chances are when they take it to the personal, they know their story is hogwash.
oops, celibate, not celibant. Typing while under the influence.
Just like if God gets ahold of those who have other types of sexual inclinations, they will drop THEM.
But you guys who like same sex sex, you don’t have to drop your sexual activity-that it? You can just say “I’m born that way” and excuse yourselves.
Nonsense. Read Ray Boltz testimony and you will find a dedicated servant who was surrendered (as in totally sold out) to God. He prayed for deliverance of his “condition” for many years while faithfully serving and leading countless souls to Christ. He finally received his answer when God told him he did not need to be “healed”, that he was a God had made him.
But of course you will simply declare that Ray is a fraud because his story is contrary to your belief paradigm. It has proven pointless to attempt to show you with scripture your error…your bigotry is too deeply ingrained.
This post ranks right up there with your most offensive comments. You simply accuse us all of not wanting to drop our “sexual activity”. To only make excuses for ourselves. In your mind we are simply moral reprobates bent on selfish pursuits of licentious living. An ad hominem attack BTW is a true sign of a weak minded individual with no ability to discuss or debate an issue intelligently.
Frankly LK, you totally disgust me. Not because you are ignorant and a cold hearted bastard, (you clearly have demonstrated both) but because you dare to speak for followers of Christ. It is not your insults to us I find most appalling…but your blasphemous representation of the nature of our God. You disgust me because you drive those who need God’s love away from Him believing He cannot love them. You disgust me because in your arrogance you believe it is right and proper to attack and malign those of us who are trying to reach out to the hurting with God’s love.
I have a friend who is gay and has been in a committed relationship for more than 30 years. This man is more Christlike than most anybody I know. He treats people with respect and love and always seeks their best. He loves God and loves people naturally because of it. He represents what the Spirit of God can do in a person’s life.
I pray that when people look for a true example of what it means to be a follower of Christ they will look to this man, and that God will steer them away from the likes of you!
BTW LK – Not that it makes a hill of beans of difference to you. But I find gay sex to be as personally repulsive as you do I assure you. But of course that is natural since I was born heterosexual. I only tell you this because of your baseless accusations of simply trying to justify our actions.
It can take many many years to overcome certain sin problems. This person you speak of had room in his heart to hear a lie so Satan spoke the lie to him that his itching ears wanted to hear and he gave in to it.
As I said…you totally disgust me. Quit speaking for Christ…you are a disgrace to Christians everywhere.
Amen Gary, amen!
Actually LK, I almost prefer your approach. I know your opinion right out front and can easily avoid your church, and you. With ‘welcomming’ churches, people often don’t know the opinions of the leadership until they have spent alot of time in the church and built relationships. That can lead to a lot of heart ache.
I’d like to see God get a hold of you. Maybe then, you’ll drop your judgmentalism.
“I look at porn… it makes me feel so much worse for the rest of the day.”
Porn: yer not doin’ it right.
Winning comment of 2012.
When I was a teenager years ago I had a female friend whose brother used to go on and on about being a Christian and how wonderful Jesus was and how we should refrain from sin. Later I found out he had been sexually abusing my friend for years. “The Word” reminds me a lot of this guy.
This blog promotes the idea that people attracted to sex with members of their own sex are born that way. So then, are those who are attracted to sex with people twice their age (or half their age – whether that means the object of attraction is underage or not) or with inadmimate objects, etc etc, also ‘born that way’? If someone is attracted to sex with someone half their age and the age of that person happens to be less than the age of consent should the older party be charged with a crime? But Hhw can you then crimilize it if all these attractions are inborn and people “can’t help it”.
From a biblical standpoint its really silly to argue that the bible gives permission to participate in same sex acts. Or in adultery, or in lustful thoughts or masturbation or viewing porn, etc. Because the scripture does say “flee from any hint of sexual immorality”. A ‘hint’ of soemthing isnt very much of it, but its enough, in God’s eyes to be sin. So then its pretty darn clear to those who have eyes to see,what the Bible stand on sexual matters is. This blog, however, has a post-biblical notion of it, while claiming to be putting forth a Christian view on the topic. It isn’t.
Please cease conflating homosexuality with the rape of persons who cannot consent. It is offensive to those of homosexual orientation and insensitive to those who have suffered sexual molestation. If you cannot practice empathy and sensitivity to those who have been victimized, please just simply shut up. Thank you.
Er, yeah, what she said.
Lyn, I so totally LOVE the way you keep being so eloquent about this stuff!
Well said, Lyn!
Ha! Answer the questions. Are all sexual desires inborn OR NOT. How about the desire to have sex with plastic blow up dolls. Inborn or not? That’s the underlying questioon which you are avoiding.
Not. And?
and sex with members of the same sex. NOT.
Really? You’re going to resort to “Did so!” “Did not!” as a logical argumentation? I realize that people of your ilk generally ignore those verses that say that the heavens are telling the glory of God, that all creation bears witness to God, and the implication that, therefore, God reveals his truth and purpose through scientific investigation of His creative works, so I doubt you’ll take the overwhelming body of scientific evidence as proof of God’s design. I do, however, believe the scriptures when it says science confirms God’s nature and truth and am, therefore, not pathologically afraid of scientific fact. God has revealed the same truth through scripture and through science– LGBTQIA persons were lovingly created by God with the natural attractions and longings they have, they are given special talents and perspectives designed by God to build up the Church, and they are no more denied fellowship with Him than a heterosexual and cisgendered person is.
Love!
What in the world? The desire to have sex with a *female* or a *male* blow up doll or human being is what is the discussion is about. Do you understand how sexuality works at all? This is about *gender* preference. I’m so embarrassed for those of you who join these discussions and make these analogies that almost seen to be rooted in personality disorder but I’m beginning to realize that you don’t have the first clue about basic sexuality.
Lyn, you really are my hero
Do you actually read this blog thoroughly, or do you just wander by, see a few things and jump in without a clue? I suggest you get one – a clue, I mean – before you comment next. Thanks.
Well said Mindy.
That you would even equate same-sex partnerships with sex that involves non-consent is so creepy and is exclusively, a reflection of your own ignorance as to what homosexuality is as well as a fear and hostility to do just that. No one cares what you think about anymore – your days of defining what being gay “really” means are over and you’ve yet to receive that memo but consider if you have the courage, that the analogy you’ve offered here is a result of the filth within your own heart. Scary, I know. Face it. You’ll be the better for it. Good luck.
Hello there. I’m queer. And I can assure you that neither myself or my partner has ever raped a child, or an adult for that matter, because we happen to know what the hell CONSENT means. Also, do you consider me more, less, or equally guilty as the (former) best friend who sexually assaulted me when I was 18?
Thank you for your sensitive and thoroughly researched insight.
Well put, Heather, but I don’t think he’ll get the “sensitive…” part.
people who like to have sex with vegetables or are sexually attracted to people’s feet–they ‘born that way”?
Why are we even responding to this anymore. It’s insane. I’m so glad these people show up though, they are such an amazing education for those who wish to believe this kind of thing is the minority.
Wowie wow wow. The difference between consenting queer adults and the rape of children incapable of consent is pointed out to you, and you come back with ~vegetable and feet fetishes?~ Do you seriously want to dissect and condemn every single fetish, no matter how harmless, that could possibly exist? Because we would be here for months.
Also, way to equate my sexual orientation with a fetish. Nice attempt at invalidating my humanity, but no cigar.
Not only are you disgustingly equating same sex consensual relationships with non-consent…but you also believe the bible forbids…gasp…the horror of it all…MASTURBATION!!!
LK – You have a whole bunch of bible study to do…because frankly you are as ignorant of a drive by poster as I have seen in a long time.
I do Bible study every day.
Show me where masturbation is ok in the Bible instead of just calling me ignorant and walking away. Back up your assertion. There is no place in scripture that ok’s it.
There is no place in scripture that “ok’s” it? Seriously…this is the best ya got?
Scripture is full of “ok’s” for sexual variety and practice that is WAY outside of your prudish sensibilities. Some even blessed and GIVEN by God Himself.
If you are seriously going to make the case that it must be wrong because God never specifically “ok’d” it…we could have your own actions condemned by breakfast. Besides…you clearly just ignore what you disagree with anyway.
why are you focusing on my using ‘ok’s it’ rather than answering the question–oh, its called diversion. Those who have no answer, divert.
Masturbation involves lustful thoughts and desires thatcome up and people then set out to satisfy. That’s called sin.
You can’t make a blanket statement like “masturbation involves lustful thoughts and desires” and just expect us all to agree. You don’t even know what lust means obviously. Here’s a hint…normal sexual desire created and placed within us by God is NOT lust. Lust is a covetous desire (study it out) and NOT a sexual thought.
You’re really in over your head here LK. You really should just close your proverbial mouth and open your ears and mind and try to learn something. There is much wisdom on the blog for those willing to learn.
1 John 2:16–For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.
so much for “God given lust”
Yeah, I’m with Gary. Maybe some people think about a particular person while they masturbate (lust). Not everybody does. Being sexually aroused in and of itself is not a sin (despite the Church trying its damndest down through the age to convince us otherwise). Taking care of it yourself isn’t a sin either.
Man. People got issues. Any chance we can get a national exorcism of all Puritanical baggage so that the collective psychological health of the country tips ever so slightly over to the healthy side?
No. But we do sometimes have a “block’ option …. Yay!
Woo-hoo! Can I borrow that for my next family holiday gathering? The block option that is?
Too funny!
Thank God!
This is specific to Biblical marriage….but it’s hysterical, and clearly applies to the discussion of those pesky sexual mores…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw
(And now, Newt’s second wife has popped up to say that, when she was diagnosed with MS, he demanded an open marriage, with his new tart/3rd wife…not sure what she was expecting, since she was a participant to him doing it to the first wife? but I would love to see him respond with some OT concubine vs NT zero-divorce tolerance debate.)
Show me in scripture where using the internet is OK. By the way, apostrophes-plus-s are for possessives. You would never, ever add one to a verb. “Ok’s” means belonging to ok rendering your sentence: “There is no place in scripture that it belonging to ok.” I would ask you to have some sensitivity to those people so neurologically wired that they read for meaning and not for sound and for those for whom English is a second language, but I have observed no sign that you have any empathy for anyone, so it would be a moot request.
I think it is time for small words. Yes, a lot of people here believe the lived experience of actual gay people that we didn’t make a choice, and the scientifically backed views of professionals who has studied same sex attraction and found that people don’t choose it.
The kernel of truth in your bigoted statement is that just because something is or isn’t chosen doesn’t define the morality of it.
What I think you’ll find the REAL view here is that same sex attraction and relationships, treated the same way and under the same rules as opposite sex relationships, harm no one, are a source of joy and grace and love both within the relationship and to those it overflows onto, and that the vast majority of claims against it are either flat-out lies or deliberate distortions of truths that don’t actually apply to the circumstances.
The fact that it is not chosen just makes anti-gay bigotry and discrimination that much more wrong. And there is a focus on the truth that it is not a choice, not because that’s some sort of trump card that wins the argument, but because the vast majority of anti-gay beliefs and actions are based on the idea that it is. Calling it a sin requires believing one can choose to feel otherwise. Saying that with prayer, people can “leave homosexuality” requires believing it is a choice. Saying that homosexuality is something that people “struggle with” and need to turn over to God is saying that a Godly person will turn away from it.
So it is something that nobody should have any reason not to choose if it was a choice, and, since it’s not a choice in the first place, those who condemn it are doing something particularly evil and bullying.
Compare that with your other examples. There’s nothing other than social disapproval, and mean-spirited social disapproval at that, which says that a 20 year old and 40 year old can’t form a loving, committed, God-touched relationship that includes physical intimacy. If they do, then we should leave them alone to love and be happy.
And frankly, I don’t see what your issue is (beyond creepiness) about the inanimate object thing.
But kids can’t consent the way adults can, and genuine harm comes to them when adults force or manipulate them into having sex, both physical and emotional. So we stop it, and try to prevent it, or at worst, at least punish it. In that case, if those who are attracted to young kids are “born that way” then it’s a matter of keeping them from doing it while getting them help – again, not because it is or isn’t chosen, but because acting on it does genuine harm.
Lymis, I always enjoy reading what you have to say. Thank you for this.
I don’t like waffles anymore….
Just made me feel really, really sad. We’ll see this guy in rehab in a few years.
full of holes….
The Word.’s comments illustrate, to me, an interesting “loophole” in the Bible’s “judge not” command. See, everyone knows that you aren’t supposed to judge other people’s sins because you have sins of your own to work through. The plank versus the speck, and all that. But people take this to mean that as long as they make it harshly, vibrantly clear that they themselves are awful sinners and just as worthy as hell as the next person, blah blah…if you do *that*, then you can judge others all you want to. As long as you show off your plank in excruciating detail, you get a free pass to harp on the specks…and the more terrible you can make your plank sound, the more license you earn to pass judgment on the specks. Oh, and then you get to start pretending that the planks and specks are all the same size and you start getting really offensive stuff like “Loving someone of the same gender is still a sin, you know, just like cheating on your spouse or having sex with animals or murdering someone.” Because that’s not insulting at all.
“Homosexuality is a sin” is not a neutral statement. It becomes especially offensive when one tries to “soften” the blow by assuring the gay person that it’s not a “worse” sin than any other, and that everyone sins. And for pity’s sake, don’t start LISTING all those other sins.
Because you know what the statement “homosexuality is a sin” sounds like to me, even as a straight person?
“When a heterosexual person falls in love, at *worst* it’s morally neutral. When a homosexual person falls in love, at *best* it’s the moral equivalent of murder…all sins being equally disgusting in the eyes of God and all.”
Sorry, but that is a PROFOUNDLY unloving thing to say.
amen
Indeed. That’s a good way to put it.
Yes, yes, yes!!! Very skillful deconstruction of a very twisted argument. Bravo!
Need to memorize this wording, for the next time some bigot makes my brain try to implode.
I hate to say this, but the author of “The Word” has some serious psychological issues.
As I read The Word’s response, I became a bit saddened. He sounds like he could really be a nice, great person. But I think he’s really only peeled a quarter of the many layers of the onion. There are so many more layers to be peeled back. Hoping that his life experiences and journey will help him get there.
The letter from “the Word” totally creeped me out!! Over the years I have learned to listen to the voice inside my gut. This time my voice said,”run as fast as you can in the other direction from “the Word”!
Soooo… Basically “The Word.” wants a pastor without sin… Id like to nominate Christ for the job. In his absence, “The Word.” may have to settle for someone less than perfect. How someone so pungently obsessed with total depravity can so thoroughly miss the irony of wanting a sinless pastor is beyond me.
*Rolls eyes* this dude is the epitome of all the psychological damage the doctrine of total depravity can do to a human being, twisting everything that makes us human into some shameful perversion, until we can barely stand to look at ourselves in the mirror.
Re: “How someone so pungently obsessed with total depravity can so thoroughly miss the irony of wanting a sinless pastor is beyond me.”
What a great observation. Psychological damage indeed.
I don’t think he expects to find a sinless pastor. I think he just has his list of the terrible sins that disqualify someone from ministry, like homosexuality, watching porn, drinking and (oddly enough) smoking. I’m sure he’d admit that everybody sins (pastors included) and he wouldn’t disqualify someone say prone to gluttony from ministry. He just has his odd list of the really serious sins which he couldn’t have a pastor be guilty of. Which is really ironic given that in the same breath he tries to claim that all sins are equal with his trite statement that he clearly doesn’t actually ascribe to that “sin is sin”. If this guy even understood his own rhetoric he might be dangerous…
I think what disturbed me was that sexuality got reduced to sexual activity and unloving sexuality at that almost immediately, which is so typical of the “homosexuality is a sin” crowd. Can they not remember that first blush of budding sexuality, when they had their first crush at 10 or 11 or 12. It wasn’t about sex at all! When your friends sang “[Name] and [Name] sitting in a tree, k – i – s – s – i – n – g!” you were kinda horrified, but intrigued and shivery at the thought of actually kissing someone– something you would have been totally grossed out by the year before when all members of the opposite sex had cooties. But mostly you just wanted to gaze into their eyes, listen to them talk, just be with them even though their very presence made your heart beat out of your chest, and your stomach do flipflops, and the air grow so thick you couldn’t breathe. He’s taken this thing that is, at its core, innocent and joyful and beautiful, and turned it into something that is always sick, always about lust and never about affection and companionship and a longing for another who completes you and, yes, the physical act of that completion in joy and laughter and love. I’m just appalled at the reduction of the natural human longing for their other half to something to be avoided and controlled. Sexuality is beautiful. It is so harmful when we limit sexuality to a small set of sexual expressions and then make it petty and dirty and shameful.
I have no idea who you are, or where you came from, Lyn. But MAN I hope you stick around. What a blessing you’ve been to this blog. (Now, then. About sex being beautiful. I think it’s so sweet that you totally don’t have any mirrors in your bedroom. Do NOT get any. And if you ever move into a place where the sliding closet doors in the bedroom are mirrored, move somewhere else. I beg you to trust me on this.)
Thanks. You can thank the youth minister at my church who told me showing public support for lgbt youth (like telling them there was a place for them at church) was “not profitable”. Kinda ticked me off, so I decided to start making a more public presence.
As for sex itself being beautiful, yeah, not so much. I’m thankful the only mirror in my bedroom is not at an angle to be seen from the bed!
If you are implying that the visual image of two people engaged in sex is not beautiful, I beg to differ with you. We’ve all seen the now-you-see-it-now-you-don’t camera trickery visions of sex action in movies and even on TV these days and it’s gorgeous. And sometimes porn is too. Of course, that is subject to the camera work and the physical beauty of the bodies.
Maybe you wouldn’t want mirrors anymore. Neither would I, but I’ll be honest where many others may not. I LOVE to see it with the beautiful bodies. It’s the most beautiful work of live art in all of human life.
Yup…I’m with you Soulmentor.
A lot can be said for the scenario and setting as well. I mean, honestly, the few pieces of porn I’ve run across, I remember that in one there was some weird guy off to the side playing keyboard while two guys wearing angel wings felt up a guy in jeans (it was French gay porn that someone had posted to a torrent site as a Stargate Atlantis episode when they were running in Canada a month ahead of when they were running in the US), in another the guy was wearing 70s style white tube socks with the colored bands on the top and the woman was wearing knee high Pippi Longstocking style socks, and in a third they were attempting coitus while one of them was perched precariously on a bar stool. None of those scenarios were particularly memorable for their beauty.
Of course, I frequently find movie/television not-showing-anything sex scenes somewhat ridiculous, too. Maybe I’m just weird, but they always look more like they’re in pain or bored than actually experiencing pleasure.
Love what you have posted so far Lyn…but I gotta say. The porn you are describing is nothing like the beauty I see in sexual love. I understand what you mean if these images are what you think of.
Well, yeah. I mean, I suppose if I went cruising through porn, I could find some that was beautiful, but my experience has indeed been that they were apparently trying so hard to be exotic that they just came out being bizarre and ridiculous. Maybe it’s just that regular, vanilla sex doesn’t sell. But when you’re worrying how the person can possibly be enjoying anything while trying to balance on a barstool, well, you’re certainly unlikely to consider it either erotic or beautiful. Nor does, “What is that guy with the keyboard doing? Why do they have angel wings? Is this a dream sequence? And what was the point in torrenting this as Stargate Atlantis anyway?” really help the cause.
But I’m sure there’s beautiful stuff out there for those willing to sift through the dross. My point was that you can have beautiful bodies doing sexy sexy things, but if you put your gorgeous woman in Pippi Longstocking knee highs or decide a barstool would be exotic, some segment of your audience is going to utterly fail to enjoy either the beauty or the sexy sexiness.
You crack me up. I love your wit and the way you express yourself.
Honestly though my point was not about whether there is tasteful “porn”, or really about porn at all. It was simply about the beauty of sexual love. John was talking about not even having mirrors in the bedroom. I found that to be odd was all.
Sex is a very natural and beautiful thing and I just hate to see any type of shame attached to it. Some choose to use sexual/erotic imagery to enhance their sex lives (which I believe is a personal choice) and others don’t. There is certainly a lot of distasteful and even harmful “porn” available. But I am really referring to how healthy it is to see sexuality as natural and beautiful as opposed to some kind of defense or critique of the porn industry…LOL
I don’t think those of us who look at two people together making all those slurpy, squishy noises and weird faces necessarily find our own lovemaking from inside the act to be shameful or distasteful or that we feel that from inside their own lovemaking others don’t find beauty. I think we just find the act to look fairly ridiculous when viewed from the outside. Maybe we have an overdeveloped sense of the absurd.
Now, the first three photos in this article– http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/17/neil-patrick-harris-david-burtka-out-magazine_n_1211701.html?ref=mostpopular — those are beautiful and sexy and hot.
Stick around, because John needs all the backup he can get for his apostate views.
His “apostate” views are the views the early Church held. It is you and your ilk who have equated sexuality and sex and have made a God-given blessing into a sin and a curse. You can yell and cry and point fingers all you want, but you have failed to study to show yourself acceptable, you have failed to rightly divide scripture, and you are responsible for the murder, assaults, bullycides, homelessness, despair, and falling away from faith that is the fruit of your spiritually abusive tree. You will answer for every time you and your spiritual abuse made someone’s life Hell on earth. Until the time when you are finally silenced, this is the calling of those of us who have studied the scripture, the traditions, and the history of the church and who are following Christ’s call to love and to care for the oppressed– we will protect those you would hurt, uplift those you have oppressed, oppose your injustice and spiritual abuse, and speak the truth about the words and actions of our Lord and Savior to those to whom you have spread the falsehood of your hate and bigotry.
You want us to take you seriously and address your questions and “concerns”? You have the Internet. Go, learn. Come back when you have more than insults and attitude to present to us. Taking time from our lives, jobs, families, and ministries to educate every holier-than-thou troll who visits this blog to vomit their bigotry all over the conversation isn’t our job. It’s YOUR responsibility, not ours, to educate you.
I love the way you think and write, Lyn. Well said!
Lyn, I love you dearly. Your post gave me goosebumps. I’m going to save it on my hard drive.
EXACTLY. Beautiful. Thank you, Lyn! I’m saving this one for the days when the antisexuals push me toward the crumbly edge.
Yeah!
The early church held other apostate views too, such as gnosticism. SO?
The apostate view of Gnosticism is what led to the rejection of the LGBTQIA members of the church and the hostility toward sexuality that is still prevalent today. Your position traces to an apostate view and is a change from the earliest, New Testament church.
BRAVA! I wish I could tell you how impressed I am by the people in this thread. It seem to me that Lyn. and all who see the damage anti gay views are doing to the faith they love, are the true followers of Christ. I left the Church YEARS ago disgusted by the condemnations and shallowness. Listen to the ugly rhetoric of conservative politicians, espescially to the field of GOP contenders. To a man, they all agree that corporations are worthy of legal standing and yet they support denial of basic rights to their gay family, friends and co workers. I don’t want to drag politics in here and lower the tone of the dialogue, but these candidates are seriously giving Jesus a bad rap. The most pious of them even pledges to dissolve legal same sex marriages if given the power. Causing the kind of suffering Lyn so accurately describes ought not be on the WWJD top ten list, but the whole field has signed a pledge in which they promise to do EXACTLY THAT!
I take lyn’s comment one step farther……not only will you answer for spiritual abuse you DO yourself, I believe that the suffering andabuses you let go un confronted will also come back to haunt you.
thank you, John for the forum
I love it when Jehovah Witnesses show up.
your smell detector is off
Boy, you just live to be nasty, don’t you?
I am with John, that was wonderful Lyn!
I agree!! Thanks, Lyn!
Lyn, this is so lovely it made me cry.
You are remarkable, what a blessing to this little internet community you are!
Lyn, that was absolutely beautiful! And right to the heart of it, how something wonderful is being reduced to a nasty, filthy act. What a sad life Word has.
Lyn, that’s brilliant.
I was utterly thrilled on my first high school “date,” which consisted of little more than going for a walk and talking. We walked along the horse-riding trails at UNH. We were supposedly there for a college fair.
There was no physical contact at all, but it was a wonderful time. For people like this to diminish affection, romance, love, attraction, and everything else into sex is not only frustrating, it kind of makes me feel bad for them.
Then again, maybe that’s why they’re so obsessed with what other people are doing … they see that there’s something seriously lacking in their lives.
I think you may be right. They have no joy, so rather than seeking out joy, they seek instead to ruin the joy that others have, to spread their own misery around. It’s covetousness turned destructive, where the desired thing is taken and destroyed rather than taken and enjoyed.
Makes me think of bullies, abused kids who grow up to become abusive parents, the terribly neglected who turn into serial killers. You feel sorry for them, but you have to focus on stopping the damage they do.
the most wonderful conversation I ever had with our parish priest back when I attended Mass was over dinner and wine.
The commenter wrote: “In the same way as I wouldn’t want someone who drinks to be a pastor …”
So he would not want Jesus – who not only drank, but also made wine and served wine and recommended it to his followers and talked about it a lot – to be a pastor.
Excellent!!
I wonder if this guy knows Mark Driscoll…..
That just sent shivers down my spine. I know people that eventually became former friends who attend Mars Hill and it is ALL about the self loathing there. I once tried to watch one of Driscoll’s video sermons online, just to make sure I wasn’t jumping the gun, and all I got out of his “biblical marriage” material was “women were created to serve their husbands”, and I decided that’s it, I’m outta here.
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