(In the course of the comments to my recent post, If no one’s being hurt, God’s okay with your sexuality, a woman wrote to share that she is polyamorous—specifically meaning, in her case that she is (as I learned) living with, in love with, deeply committed to, and basically in all ways but legally married to a man and a woman.
I asked our new acquittance if she would be willing to let me interview her. At first she was reticent—but, as she put it, “the opportunity to share with others a glimpse into our life is too good to pass up.”)
Could you give us a quick definition of what polyamorous is/means?
Honestly, the term “polyamorous” wasn’t on our radar when we fell in love. It was later that we discovered there was a term for what we were. If we need a term, we consider ourselves “poly-fidelitous,” which is what poly’s call those who love more than one person in a long-term, faithful kind of way. Some people consider themselves polyamorous because they believe they need and/or want to be in multiple relationships at any given time. This is not a good description of us. We all feel we could be satisfied with just one person. It’s just that we fell in love with two, pretty much all at the same time . . and we discovered (through lots of open and honest communication!) that we were all not just okay with it, but that it was something we wanted.
Truthfully, we don’t think of ourselves as polyamorous. We just think of ourselves as us.
How many people are in your relationship?
Three. One man, two women.
How long have you guys been together?
We have been dear friends for a very long time, with children who grew up as babies together.
How old are you guys?
38, 39, 41.
Were any two of you in a relationship before the third one of you joined it?
I was a (divorced) single mother, and they were a happily married couple. After my divorce, I had the joy of finally being free from an abusive marriage. I was supporting four children with very little support, but managing. She had been my best friend for years, and we’ve always been closer than sisters. People used to always comment on how close we were, but we never realized that could be sexual, too. Both of us were raised to not even be aware that was a possibility.
Long story short, the three of us began doing more and more things together and it just . . . worked really well. We got along incredibly, the three of us, and at some point, my best friend realized she had feelings for me. She was the one who began the conversation about, “What if . . ?” A lot of talking, a lot of thinking, all of us talking together as well as doing a lot of thinking on our own, individually. I realized I had feelings for her (and for him), all feelings that were completely buried (since it was impossible to love either them like that, right?) . . .
So it was something the three of you consciously worked out together.
Yes. We all felt very excited when we realized that we were in love and that we all wanted the same thing (a long-term committed relationship as three). And then there was a LOT of open and honest communication, of course. There has to be with any successful couple, and so with three people, even more so. It was very important to us that every single person was on the exact same page, or there was no way we were doing anything. No one felt pushed or coerced into anything. We really tried to look at this from a number of different angles, including the potential problems we could have, and kept feeling okay about taking another step forward. Every step forward just felt so right on so many different levels, and doors kept opening up right and left. There were numerous points where we would look at each other and say, “It’s so weird, but if I was still a fundamentalist Christian, I would say that God is blessing us…”
We took very small and careful steps forward, hesitantly, every inch of the way being shocked at how nice, how perfect, how healthy, how “just right” it always felt. Our fears about each next step were always replaced by fearfully taking it and then finding it delightful.
We laughingly still can’t believe we had the guts to even try this in the first place!
Do you all live together?
Yep. Wouldn’t have it any other way. The year that we lived apart was HORRIBLE. Fun, in that it was a new relationship, so it was exciting, but totally exhausting. The minute we bought our big house together, we all breathed a collective sigh of relief. Then came the adjustment of blending two families. That takes time, but we parent in very similar ways, and the children and teens already were very close, so it all meshed together well, too. If we didn’t think the two families had the ability to blend well together, we never would have done it in the first place, because we feel very strongly about our kids and want the best for them.
How long have you been living together?
Two years this spring.
Is jealousy a problem? Like, if one of you feels left out of something the other two are doing or feeling?
Jealousy was something we struggled with at first. We were excited that we all loved each other, but it was easy to feel insecure. If I saw them being super affectionate, I might worry, “Oh, no! They have all these years of marriage together. There’s no way I can ever compete!” If he saw us being affectionate, he might worry, “Oh, no! They have been best friends since forever. They probably won’t even want me around!” If she saw us being affectionate, she might say, “Oh, no! They are going to hit it off and decide they don’t need me!”
That was what we would worry about, but it wasn’t ever actually true, as we would discover when we would share our fears with each other. We had yet to learn that love can be bigger than two. The realization that each leg of the relationship must be strong or the whole thing falls apart was a major discovery for us, and one that helped us shift into a truly solid loving relationship as a three.
We learned that if I am deeply in love with him, it strengthens and supports my loving relationship with her (and her relationship with him, too), and so on. Normally, you think that if your significant other is in love with someone else, it weakens your relationship with them. In our case, since we are a three-person relationship, seeing my lovers relate happily together means that our three-person relationship is stable and supportive. Their love strengthens my individual relationships with them both and our relationship all together as a three.
It took a little while for us to wrap our heads around that one, because it is so different than how we grew up thinking about the way love works. Once we learned to see our partner’s individual relationship together as a strength and not a threat, we found ourselves released from the trap of jealousy and insecurity and that let us nurture and grow a deepening love. Insecurities still arise from time to time, just as they do in any relationship, but it’s on a much different level now—just normal occasional stuff. Mostly, we just have a lot of fun together.
To what if any degree do you guys feel compelled to hide your relationship from the rest of the world? Is that hard on you psychologically, not being able to be open about who you are and how you live?
I personally feel very compelled to be in the closet, almost entirely because of our children and for the safety of our professional careers. There are eight kids in our house, and we live in an extremely conservative town in a very Republican part of the South. The kind of town where a gay kid will probably commit suicide one of these days. There is a conservative church on almost every corner, and the few people who have been brave enough to be openly gay have experienced a lot of trouble.
We decided we didn’t want to risk our children being persecuted for our choices. Also, employment-wise, we are all professionals in our careers and while we do great work, we know that many employers are openly right-wing and openly homophobic (and so we can only guess what they would feel towards us, if they knew). One man I have to work with sometimes, someone with a lot of power in my field, openly expresses that he believes gay people have a psychological illness.
So we live as just “house-mates,” including in front of our children. We have differed a little bit on this, as I mentioned, and I am the one who is the most hesitant about coming out. My two lovers have been really kind about respecting my fears about the children and agree to keep it private for now, but we all look forward for the day when we can just be open.
The teenagers know that we are all in a relationship together, since it’s pretty hard to keep anything from teenagers, but the younger children do not. They just know that we are all best-friends. The teenagers were upset at first, but have grown to like it. One of them recently said, “I can’t believe I ever thought it would be weird for you all being together. I love having two moms!”
One set of our parents found out, through extremely disrespectful snooping, and pretty much disowned their adult child. They told my partner that they wished she had died in a car accident because at least then, she would have still gone to heaven. They said and did some pretty horrible things, along with then spreading “Christian” rumors (you know, asking for “prayer”). So, um, that was fun to go through. With family like that, who needs enemies, right?
I haven’t had the joy of my family finding out yet, but I expect the reaction may be fairly similar. Maybe I am wrong. That would be nice, but I’m not getting my hopes up. It’s strange to think your own relatives would rather see you in an abusive marriage than be in a healthy, happy and stable relationship with two partners. That’s the world we live in, though. It’s just how people are trained to think. It helps if I don’t make it personal and instead just remember that this is how our culture teaches us to think. I was plenty judgmental myself, before I began questioning the religious views I’d grown up believing to be true.
As for being “out” at home, we have a great time at our house and it’s very open that we are all best friends. There is always something to laugh about going on. The three of us are very light-hearted and playful and loving and it makes for a fun living environment. The kids are supported by three adults who love them, and there’s always someone there for the kids when they come home from school or someone to attend the important school event (we arrange work schedules so that the kids are always taken care of).
We consider our home a gift from God to us. Best of all, the master bedroom and office bedroom are attached by a bathroom, so that allows us an adults-only “wing” of the house to be in privately. It will be nice, someday, to be out completely, but that will have to wait until the kids are grown and we can move. For now, the adult wing is our slice of heaven at the end of each day.
How does it work socially? To the world, are you pretending to be really just ONE couple—with, like, a roommate? So that if, say, a married couple asked you out, would just (the same) two of you go, or would all three of you show up, or what?
We often show up as a three. I am the best friend, and they are the married couple. That really bothers my two partners, but, like I said, it’s what I prefer for now. Just as often I will go with one of them to something, and the other adult will stay home with the kids (whether it’s a sporting event or an activity at one of the kid’s schools). People are now pretty used to the fact that we come as an interchangeable unit of three.The other thing is that we really don’t go out all that much. Between raising this many children, all of whom are very active, and working in our professions, which can be demanding, and somehow keeping up with the gigantic amount of laundry our house produces, we don’t have a lot of spare time to go out to social events, even if we wanted to.
What’s the sexual deal? Are each of you bisexual? Do you all sleep in the same bed?
He is not bisexual. I suppose that both of the women are. Well, honestly, I don’t even know if we are. I just know that I love her. And she loves me. And being intimate feels like it makes sense, given the depth of our feelings for each other. We had been incredibly close friends for years, prior, and it never seemed close enough. Now, it feels just right.
We all sleep together every night. The person in the middle gets seriously snuggled on. It’s fun.
Sexually, we have learned a lot about how three people can have an amazingly wonderful experience that feels like making love for everyone. We occasionally joke about the best-selling book we will write about “how to have amazing threesomes” one day. It was delightful to learn that you can have that feeling of being “one” with three. You totally can. That was one of the things we worried about at first—what would we do about sex? Now, my mind automatically assumes that making love takes three.
We are sexual as couples, too, just not as often. We prefer three, as the norm, but enjoy time as couples on occasion, when opportunity allows, which is maybe once a week or so for each of us.
The world is pretty set up for couples. Do you ever feel a desire to be just a “normal” one-on-one coupley relationship? You know what I mean? Does it ever get kind of lonely knowing you’re living out such a radically different kind of love/relationship from the rest of the world?
The only reason I would want to be only a couple is just to be able to walk outside the door of my home while hanging all over my partner. If I wanted to, anyway. I can’t do that. I always took that for granted, as a straight woman in a heterosexual marriage. I never thought about the fact that I “got” to hold my partner’s hand in the grocery store. I just did it if I wanted to. I never thought about the fact that he “could” put his arm around me in a social setting. I just took it for granted. Now, I don’t take those things for granted anymore. It is something that bothers us all. One of my partners swears that this whole experience might just turn her into a full-on gay rights activist marching in parades. We felt bad for gay couples before, but we never actually understood what it FELT like. It’s horrible.
In the beginning of all of this, when we were first talking and wondering, I realized that the only reason I would not be willing to do this was because my society did not approve of it as a valid choice. It just seemed a shame to turn down something that felt so right on so many levels, all because of wanting to maintain social approval. On my death bed, am I going to gasp out, “Well, turned down a joy-filled life with my two best friends, all so that the world would like me!” Never! I like social approval as much as the next person, but it’s not worth choosing over love.
And I do I love my two partners. I love our life together. I love our big happy home. But I do not love the fact that I live in a community that would rather me live as a struggling single mom to four children than to have the support of two adults who love me dearly as a life-partner. The fact that my community would believe wholeheartedly that my sexual relationship with my abusive ex-husband was righteous, but that my sexual relationship with two committed life-partners (if they knew about it) is unrighteous, just seems so hypocritical. It especially makes no sense how they define “biblical marriage,” when the Bible is full of life unions with multiple partners. “One man, one woman,” really? What Bible are they reading, anyway?
Do you know any other polyamorous, or poly-fidelitous … relationship units? (I guess couples isn’t the right word, is it?) But do you know any others like yourselves?
No. I’m sure they are out there, but we don’t know of any personally. That’s okay. Honestly, I don’t think this would work for very many people. The reason it does for us is that we are just the right three people for each other. It’s hard enough to find just the right one person for yourself, much less two! When I think about my relationship as a three, I mostly just feel incredibly lucky, like God is smiling at us. I get to be loved by two best friends and lovers. I get to love two amazing people back (and they really are amazing). I get to love a whole house-full of children. It just feels like so much goodness. When I come home from work and pull into our drive, I smile. I love us!
We knew of a couple who were recently trying to be polyamorous, but, honestly, it seemed like trying to make it okay to have an affair. One partner really wanted to bring in a third, while the other partner pretty much cried and cried and cried about it, and then reluctantly agreed to it only because she felt like she had to. There were kids involved too, to make it even worse. This made us mad. This is not at all what we are or who we are. We felt like it was 100% not okay to force a partner into something like this. We work because we ALL wanted it—no coercion, no pressure, no pushing down the needs of one partner to meet the needs of another. To us, it is not loving or respectful to try and make three when one partner only wants two.
What do you want people to know about people like you, and relationships like yours?
That we are normal solid citizens. That we are professionals that you work with at the office. That we are the teacher in your child’s classroom, the person who delivers your mail, the doctor who looks at your injury. That we are the mom at the soccer games. That we are the dad at the geography bee. That we are the people with the really huge cart of groceries ahead of you in the supermarket line. That we grew up in conservative Christian America and certainly never imagined that we would do something like this. That we certainly weren’t looking for something outside of the norm, but that love found us, and we were willing to step outside of the norm to meet it.
We are not monsters. We are not weirdos. We are just normal every-day people who found that, for us, love could be bigger than two.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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Thanks for sharing, John. I saw a video clip of a man with three “wives” and call ‘em his three independent monogamous relationships. The women are friends, and not bisexual. I am sure there are other variations on the theme of polyamorous relationship. Indeed, relationships don’t even have to be intimate and sexual, i.e. platonic committed long term relationships between two best friends. It is not about marriage. And in this case, if they want to have the same tax advantages of raising their children together, and having medical rights etc, they need to be free to do that, through similar commitment ceremonies.
Love is not about gender, nor sex, nor numbers, but faithfulness, commitment, and sacrifice.
IMO, it isn’t wise for a man to have more than one mother in law.
If he has more than one mother in law, he has only himself to blame.
Poly for orphans only?
as for me, I couldn’t handle more than one mother in law.
LOL
If it works for them, who are we to judge …..better than living in a forced by wrong beliefs violent relationship, that’s for sure …more power to them
Many who call themselves polyamorous are just polysexual.
Many who call themselves Christian are just religious.
As a guy who’s 46 and raising two boys alone for the past ten years, all I can think when I see stories like this are, I wonder did one of those guys get my wife? I know it’s illogical to make things that personal, but statistically, polygamy isn’t sustainable unless society is ready to absorb a LOT of sexually frustrated guys.
Mark, polyamorous relationships come in a lot of other flavors besides 1 guy and multiple gals. I personally know several triads consisting of one woman and two men. It’s a two-way street and it all balances out. Equality is funny that way.
You might consider spending less time blaming other people for your relationship failures and more time figuring out what you’re doing wrong. It’s pretty telling that you blame someone else for taking “your” wife, and don’t even consider the possibility that a woman could have multiple male partners.
Maybe your wife is just waiting for her second husband – you.
Ok, I know we’re not talking about “official” marriage here, but doesn’t this reinforce the concern that once we remove the one man one woman constraint on marriage the flood gates are now open? If Brown had seen this link, couldn’t he have said, “and see, gay marriage isn’t even settled yet, but here are people getting us ready for the next move away from traditional marriage. Where will it stop?” Just playing devil’s advocate here.
Traditional biblical marriage very much included poly relationships. Which form of “traditional” marriage are you referring to?
Indeed, mariage has already been changed so many times. The floodgates have long been open (never were shut), and they aren’t going to close – to considering lagalizing poly or anything else – any time soon, with or without SSM.
@robert- thats awesome! Lol. @karen- our youngest child is named trinity in honor of the effort of three parents and the holy trinity.
How right you are John. Seems like a very healthy relationship. I guess we can simply say LGBTP or better, Loving.
I’m poly. My husband, boyfriend and I have lived together nearly ten years. We have raised our kids together, the youngest two are still at home, ages 5 & 12. All of our kids know as do extended family, friends and coworkers.
We are just a family with 3 adults. Thumbs up to the lady you interviewed. Yes, we are out there and yes we do have wonderful, loving, committed families.
This makes more sense than most relationships if you ask me. I’m a former fundie — and I was taught there that God is three in one, too. Good enough for the holy trinity — good enough for humans.
I am in a situation where I love a man who is married. And I am married to. I tend to poly relationships but my husband does not like it. Calling things cheating is stupid because you can only judge from the outside when you are not in the situation and don’t know how it is really.
My guyfriend would want to be with me as well if he could. Social restrictions and christianity are excuses for us to not follow our bliss. There is something that will be worked out however – that is why we met.
My husband will not stay my husband (divorce) and will not be included into any poly relationship should one come up for my guyfriend, me and his wife.
I read above that it is not ok to go for poly (or my interpretation) when one partner is not ok with. Then what is the option? To say I stay in the shitty marriage because husband is not ok with poly?
I have enough of those people who judge and don’t know what they say!
It’s my understanding that all adults involved meed to be supportive and consenting. If your husband is not into this then there’s your answer. I’d not call it “poly” so you can have a boyfriend. Everyone has to agree and want the same thing. That’s not a judgment, that’s the definition.
If your relationship is shitty and so you want a new one, that isn’t poly – that’s half the population.
If you sleep with someone not your spouse and your spouse is not cool with it – that’s cheating.
We are in the same type of relationship as the person being interviewed above. We’ve found it extremely difficult finding someone like then to ask questions to etc.. We are doing great together and are interested in the societal challenges along with the family and professional ones. We think our families know something is there but they don’t know exactly what it is. Our biggest concern is work. We are all professionals and two of us find it even more of a challenge because our work frowns upon anything resembling it. One thing we want to know is, is it that difficult to keep it quiet? We’ve kept it quiet for 2 years now but want to know will it get easier or harder since we’ve already done it this long?
I really wish the interviewee were available to discuss and help us.
I am not in the exact same type of poly relationship but ours certainly faces the same challenges you speak of. We are two married couples who have blended our marriages together. We are hetero so the dynamic is that each of us basically have two spouses and a best friend. We have been this way for more than 5 years now so the dynamics of it have been pretty well worked out and in harmony. We don’t live together so that does allow us a bit more ability to shelter our relationship from the world. Though the extra car frequently in the driveway all night has lead to some rumors spread around our small town, nothing has progressed more openly than rumors. None of us work in our town so no issues there.
We are not open to our families…though many of them suspect and a couple have knowledge…all are discreet and just treat us all as extended family. We would love to live together some day though practically we know it would be very difficult to be accepted in society. So we keep our relationship as private as possible yet still allow ourselves the freedom to spend as much time together as possible. Unlike friends who can only be together so much without damaging the relationship…we have come to crave the same kind of togetherness any loving couple does. Basically we consider ourselves to be very blessed as our lives have been enriched tremendously.
I would say yes we have found it is difficult to keep it totally quiet, but without us deliberately putting it out there so to speak…most people seem to take the approach of live and let live.
Great interview! It was passed along to me because I just wrote my own story about our family’s experience with polyamory. Our experience is different in some ways, but similar in philosophy – the importance of love, sharing, taking everyone’s feelings into account, etc. If you’d like to read my article, called “Surrounded by Love: Our Alternative Family,” it’s in the March issue of Rethinking Everything, an online magazine. Here’s a link: http://www.remagazinesex.com/issues.html
Thank you for being willing to speak up about these issues. I’m not a Christian myself, but I certainly appreciate when people are open-minded about complex moral issues.
Nikki
For some reason, this makes me think of a family… not quite story, but situation from my husband’s family. He’s done some genealogy research and ran into a snarl a couple generations back. Seems there were two female cousins with the same last name who had been also given the same first name. They married two brothers, thus resulting in them still having exactly the same name. They both had kids (some with the same names as their cousins because the hubby’s family is notoriously uncreative with names). And then one of the brothers died.
So far, a pain to try and track genealogically, but not too awful. But then, the widow and her kids moved in with her brother-in-law and cousin/sister-in-law, creating a huge rambling family with two moms (of the exact same name), one dad, and a whole passel of kids (It was out West somewhere, so I can use ‘passel’). Census records afterward are rather a pain to sort out, since there’s now no separate addresses to distinguish the two women or their similarly-named kids.
When my hubby told me about this, I immediately thought of some of those polygynous marriages of old (and not so old). Now, I have no real reason to assume there was anything marital going on between the widow and her in-laws, but that’s what my mind’s eye pictured. And it was a nice image– all these kids in this huge ranch house and the two women working side by side, and the dad/uncle coming in from the range with the older boys and, you know, just this sort of idealized hard-working family sitting down to dinner and sharing their day.
Of course, this is the hubby’s family with their Southern plantation roots and range wars, complete with shootings and murder trials, so my idealized image is probably far from the truth.
Thanks to the interviewee for telling her story. It was beautiful to hear how happy you all are. Loved the part about how the love between each pair of you reverberates out into your relationship and makes the love of the group stronger. Like when you have more kids the love in your house just grows. There is no finite “Love Pie” and you really do get more when you give more! Enjoyed hearing how that applies to poly relationships too (when we can let go of “separateness” and truly experience it!)
So happy for you and your big family!
Whoa, see what happens when I step out into real life for a couple of days? Must read comments now before opening mouth….
I know what you mean – I get so frustrated when my actual life interferes with my ability to spend every waking moment on this blog!
this is the only website i know of where i end up usually feeling the conservative man in the progressive people soup. im not really okay with this. is it okay for me to not be okay with it? i wouldnt try to outlaw it or anything, i just dont think its right. does that make me xenophobic or something?
No. That’s … well, not what xenophobic means. (And I often feel like the conservative man in the progressive people soup here. I think at times we all do. That’s kind of why it works.)
You’ve created a monster, Dr. Frankenshore. A big, out-of-control, and lovable monster with whom all your wild children can play. Deepest thanks to you.
well thats comforting. i certainly dont like to think of myself as being judgemental.
I think it’s perfectly okay to not be okay with anything that strikes you as not okay… That’s what boundaries are for – knowing when to speak up if our own boundaries are being violated, and also recognizing the boundaries that other people have to stop us judging/interfering/expressing unsolicited opinions. Basically – MANNERS.
In specific cases, if you came across a situation that you felt was abusive/coercive, it might be good to speak up in some Holy Spirit-inspired way (if you are a Christian), but for the most part I think we should keep our opinions about other people’s choices to ourselves (and these blog comments!)
I think the best first instinct might be to say – “This doesn’t feel right to me, so that probably means it isn’t right *for me*” and then just let that sit awhile. What works for some definitely won’t work for everyone, and a moral-seeming aversion to something is likely just a good indication it would be very bad for *you* to do. Then we just shrug our shoulders and say “I don’t get it, I can’t understand it, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for someone not me. Maybe someday I’ll be able to emphathize.” Then just let it go.
From experience, this has worked for me for various issues. The aversion can be accepted – that “ick” feeling doesn’t have to turn into personal shame that we are too jugdemental. And it can also prevent us from looking like an idiot if our views do shift in the future. Sometimes wisdom is just keeping our mouths shut.
I am in a “V” formation triad, and live with both of the men I consider life partners. I am married to the first of them that I met and committed to, but obviously, cannot marry the other. I would if they let me, but they won’t, so a hand fasting and joint property is as close as we can come. What I would dearly love to see is more representation from the other side of the coin. We see these sorts of arrangements (one man, more than one woman) from the polygamous quarter all the time (“Big Love” and “Sister Wives”). But women with more than one partner is rarely given air. But, we’re out here.
having read said comments: yes, poly fidelity is harder than monogamy. but way too much of that is cultural. if it were culturally supported, just like gay marriage – that is, completely taken for granted as a normal lifestyle – it would be considerably easier. It’s harder to be patient and committed and forgiving when everyone around you is telling you the whole relationship is wrong in the first place.
whoops. that was meant to go in general comments, so if it seems disjointed, it is.
For my husband and me, i think getting along with one life partner is hard enough. But totally worth it.
And i think that this relationship is great because of how it works out for the interviewed person or rather for all 3 of you. really hope that things progress in the society so that you can all live openly one day. From what you said about your location, you could be my neighbors (although considering your jobs you probably live several blocks away in a nicer neighborhood LOL) but seriously i don’t anticipate things changing that fast but i wish they would for you and for everybody.
Thank you for this. I am a long time reader who recently found myself in a poly relationship. Currently I am seeing the husband of a long time poly-married couple and am friends with his wife. I am at the beginning stages of exploration and everything has worked out very well at this point. There is love, understanding, respect, honesty and communication.
Also, if you are interested in more info on poly activism check out http://www.modernpoly.com. I found the site very helpful.
Amazing interview, and amazing people. Thanks for this, John.
Thank you, John Shore, for the interview and thank you all for the kind and supportive thoughts. Speaking to some of the concerns brought up, in relationships with more than two people there will always the potential for problems. Just like there are always potential problems with two people relationships. Couple problems are just ones we are more familiar with, since that is the normative relationship in our society, and that is why no one blames couple problems on heterosexual marriage. Who would say that a man hitting his wife is the fault of heterosexual marriage?
Cultivating good relationship skills is important for all humans in relationships, whatever those relationships may look like. Becoming poly is not any sort of answer for relationship problems in a two-person union. I think that if someone thinks adding more people will fix a relationship problem, all they will end up with is a much bigger problem. This is particularly worrisome to me when children are involved.
Straight, gay, couple, poly, trans, and such, if it is unhealthy and harmful to the people in it, that is not indicative of a relationship worth staying in. For those who have a love that is real and growing in its depth, give thanks to the God of love and rejoice in your good fortune. Not many people on this earth get to experience such a thing. It is a gift.
Thank you again, John Shore, for your helpful writing and for your acceptance.
Yes, what you say is true. From what I’ve seen, it takes even more emotional maturity to handle polyamory than to handle a two-person relationship–and a two-person relationship requires a lot of maturity all by itself.
“I think that if someone thinks adding more people will fix a relationship problem, all they will end up with is a much bigger problem.”
Yes. It’s like the people who are having marriage problems who think having a baby will solve the problem. If the marriage isn’t already healthy, bringing a third party of any kind into the relationship is not going to solve the problem.
It’s actually a poly cautionary proverb: “Relationship broken? Add more people!”
What??
Meaning, that’s a big fat “DON’T” in the form of a pithy quip. Take it as sarcasm, warning against the obviously-bad idea it describes!
A general comment: I can’t even remember how I stumbled on this page or website (chain of links, of course) but I’m glad I did. Like Brynn, I’m also a woman in a poly “V-formation” with a longtime male partner and a newer male partner who was our good friend. And like the interviewee, this is a new situation for us (though not a new idea) and we’re working our way through the feelings and the quirks every day. I love how she described it: “love found us, and we were willing to step outside of the norm to meet it.”
Anyway, it warms my heart to find religious people who embrace difference, including divergence from what some fundamentalists claim is a “one true rulebook” to be a good person. Thanks to the writer and readers here for having open hearts.
I kinda figured that’s what you meant. (At least I was hoping so)
If you’ve read the comments you know that my wife and I are in an exclusive 2 couple quad relationship. And contrary to what most fundies would be willing to believe…we are very much Christian. We too believe there is “one true rulebook”, though ours only has 2 rules…love God with all your heart and love others as we want them to love us.
Glad you found John’s blog. A lot of good nuggets of wisdom can be found here, both in his posts and in the comments.
Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a]
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Have you ever noticed that a fundie will quote from Leviticus and Deuteronony all day. They’ll quote Saul/Paul who never met Jesus. They’ll quote from Revelations, an obviously drug induced dream.
But a fundie will rarely, if ever, quote from Jesus the Christ himself.
It’s too hard to condemn others when you quote Jesus.
@Will – “But a fundie will rarely, if ever, quote from Jesus the Christ himself. It’s too hard to condemn others when you quote Jesus.”
This is so true. Before I left my “fundamental bible believing baptist church” I taught an entire series on love to my very large adult SS class. Some of them got it and were in agreement…others would look for every reason they could dream up to not have to take Jesus’ words at face value. Now I think about them and I feel sadness…and pity.
Thanks Gary.
What is SS?
Adult Sunday School? or Schutz-Staffel?
LOL – Yes it would be Adult Sunday School.
“But a fundie will rarely, if ever, quote from Jesus the Christ himself. It’s too hard to condemn others when you quote Jesus.”
Awesome quote. Will promptly steal and repost.
I am glad the interviewee has found a loving couple and that is working out. There are lots of polyamorous couples about, but you have to go north and toward the coasts.
A lot of them are waiting in the wings for their chances at legitimizing their relationships after the fight for gay marriage winds down, which is going to be very interesting indeed. (It’s hard enough figuring out who gets the kids and who pays childsupport in a two-way divorce; it’ll be really interesting in an n-way divorce…)
I doubt if we’ll be seeing any n-way divorces any time soon. Not even sure what I think about that possibility yet. I don’t know how other’s in poly relationships feel, but for us marriage is simply not necessary. Our relationship already includes 2 strong marriages and the only child left at home is in high school and in the dark so to speak. He does not need the kind of drama in his life he would undoubtedly face if we were in the open. Our choices are personal and we have a strong commitment to avoid having them cause him hardships.
Gary, i have a curiosity, are there ever any poly relationships that are all same-sex? I never heard of that yet so i wondered. The ones i knew before reading this interview and the comments here, all involved both male(s) and female(s) and some of all of the members were bi. And if i have read the comments carefully, all the ones described here would also fit that description. I don’t want to know this for any particular reason other than, like i said, basic curiosity, really. Like i’m not trying to draw a conclusion out of it or anything.
LSS, there are many many “threesome” households in the gay community, and they tend to either live a low-key life or live/work within a gay subculture that doesn’t blink at their living arrangement. Most are low-key not only to avoid professional/family problems, but also to avoid social ostracization. (Gay men, in their heart and soul, really are quite conventional.)
With that said, gay guys are also, almost by definition, sexual outlaws and, as such, are used to “making up the rules” as they go along. I think it is easier both to engage in an out-of-the-norm relationship and to stay in the threesome closet, as the existence of a household of three gay men – even middle age guys – tends not to raise eyebrows.
My husband of 26 years (now legally married for 3+) and I lived in a threesome for about 4 years. The complexities of how we came to be aren’t pertinent, but those years remain treasured years because of the depth of love, because of the good times and hilarity, and because of the enduring friendship and bond we three still have.
As you’ve read from others, family and career concerns create difficulties, but inside of our relationship, it was beautifully easy. Traditional gender roles and sexual politics didn’t come into play, and none of us were wired for jealousy, and these elements seemed to be key to our success.
Job relocation and other career/life demands split our relationship between coasts, and we missed each other terribly, but when, 2500 miles away, our partner found a new love, we could only be happy for him. (He and his husband have now been together 14 years, and we see them, platonically, as often as possible.)
Some friends have said that the 4 year duration of our relationship shows its inherent flaw, but we look back and only see 4 years of exceptional love.
Thank you for telling your story. It must be because i don’t know enough gay friends that i had missed that this exists. from your description, that sounds like it was a real kind of love.
I should say “is”, not “was” because if you are still friends, that is also a kind of love.
A real kind.
It’s probably not that you don’t know enough gay friends. I don’t think successful threesomes are common, they definitely stay quiet about it, and I’m not sure we would ever have fallen into one except for a very specific set of circumstances. (living in San Francisco and LA didn’t hurt … it’s hard to raise eyebrows in those towns.)
“(Gay men, in their heart and soul, really are quite conventional.)”
This, really, is why it’s such a shame that so many churches continue to exclude those LGBT people who wish to join. I am reminded of Jesus’ words to the religious leaders of His day: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” (Matt 23:13)
PS – I’m sitting here smiling at memories. Remembering that our biggest domestic squabbles were over clothes and shoes … all similar sizes, laundry day confusion, the mistaken wearing-0f and temptation to borrow each other’s things … “you fag! our friends have seen you wearing my brand new shirt, so now I can’t wear it without looking like I wearing your hand-me-downs, grrrrrrrrr.” Excellent times.
I know there are some yes…but I don’t believe they are as common for whatever reason. At least this is my observation based on the forums I have participated in and it is certainly not any kind of scientific sampling.
I have always been jealous of sister-wives. Split up the work; don’t multiply it. Great for the wives. I don’t know about the husbands.
I’d prefer brother-husbands,
I have found in this life, that there’s a kind of 95%/5% rule in “out of the mainstream activities and relationships. Like the interviewee mentioned above, 95% of the people I’ve known to push for a “poly” situation were one partner just wanted an excuse to cheat, both partners were done with the primary relationship, but didnt want to admit it, or there were past emotional issues for one or both partners that made a deep, one-on-one relationship too threatening. And those relationships are
Bad- they don’t bless or help those around them, they just muddy the waters with more drama that allows those involved to repeat the abuses that were perpetrated on them, or support selfish behaviors. Also in play is power- someone in that dynamic is pushing for the poly situation, while the partnet with less power is going along, for fear of losing love, or financial support of social position. And to be honest, it’s that 95% that makes me leery of “polyamory”. Not in a “shun you, push the boss to fire you” way, but in a “unless I’d known you and trusted you for years, the kids will have their sleep overs at OUR house, thanks” kind of way.
And then, I guess there’s the rare, healthy 5%. Where the same-sex partners are honestly interested in each other sexually, no-one has been “procured” into the relationship as underaged or lower income “property”, and it’s an equally consensual and blessing situation all around. I can’t say I think it happens often, but if everyone feels loved, cherished, and powerful, and it’s a committed relationship, I’m going to let God worry about the right/wrong on this one, and just be glad that the kids and grow ups here seem to be in a loving committed home.
All of what you describe here as the unhealthy 95% (though that estimate seems exceptionally high) has nothing to do with the type of relationship whether traditional or non. What you describe is simply individuals in a relationship not built on genuine love and trust or at least walking away from it.
How does this have anything uniquely to do with polyamory, or any other type of relationship?
There’s real wisdom to what you’ve said here, Susan.
As a counselor I work with a lot of poly couples, triads and quads, and have not noticed anything like 95% of those who come to me trying to coerce their partners-to-be into a poly relationship. If anything, it seems to be the reverse.
Certainly, there are people who just want to get laid and want to manipulate others to make it happen. But most of the people I see are genuinely connected to their partner(s), love them deeply, and are trying to work out the intricacies of a new and different kind of relationship, a relationship that most of us have no role models to use as a template for “how this should work.”
There are a lot of poly groups all over the world (see http://www.polygroups.com/) and national conferences, too (see http://www.lovemore.com). In every group I’ve visited and in every conference I’ve attended and/or presented at, there is always a shared fundamental ethical principle of consent, respect for everyone, open communication, love and caring for each other. In fact, people who attend local groups with an agenda of manipulation or coercion tend to be ostracized rather quickly, because respect for others is such a deeply-held value for polys.
So I hope sometime you have a chance to meet other polys than the ones you’ve met so far. Feel free to attend some of the local groups and/or visit some of the national conferences. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Thanks for this Bob.
Indeed “pushing” your partner into a relationship they are not comfortable or want themselves is against everything we stand for. It is not genuine poly.
some of us can only handle one mother in law at a time.
There is that. Even though my MIL treats both of us better than my own mother treated both of us (past tense because we are not in contact anymore)
Both my mom and MIL are great; if we should ever end up getting divorced, I think I’ll sue for custody of the in-laws…
Barbara, I once heard a gay man describe his marriage to a woman the same way. Just because it’s not what is right for you does not give you the right to play judge and jury for others.
Sorry, but I’m gonna say something really un-PC: Either your are too young to have enough life/relationship experience to know better yet, or you and Nathaniel are “yanking our chains” here. Been there, done that, found it immensely empty except when fraught with self-preoccupied, narcissistic drama. Good luck with all that.
I’m not sure what “experience” you have had that you believe makes you wise enough to make such aggressive accusations against us but I suggest you consider the following.
If your “been there, done that” experience was empty and fraught with “self-preoccupied, narcissistic drama”, perhaps it was because that was what you brought to the relationship.
You clearly have no comprehension of what it means to poly at all.
I love living with my two guys, and they are genrous enough to share the tons of love I enjoy giving them. They are a blessing!
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