As you may already know, there is just now much controversy swirling around this video of Dan Savage (Savage Love; the It Gets Better Project).
He was speaking on April 12 to attendees of the National High School Journalism Conference, sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. The four-day conference, featuring over 200 sessions, two keynote speakers (Dan and Jennifer Sizemore), more than a dozen featured speakers, and more events and activities than you can shake a pen at, was titled Journalism on the Edge.
The conference’s promo material begins with:
You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish.
And there, amongst all this journalistic edginess, was Dan Savage, being edgy.
Just who does this podium-pounding pontificator peddling in people’s perplexingly perverse predilections think he is, anyway?
I, for one, have no idea what the world has come to, when a person who has made his career out of speaking, in the most unadorned language possible, directly to great numbers of young people about some of the most important issues in their lives, dares to speak in unadorned language directly to a great number of young people about one of the most important issues in American life today.
Besides the fact that he was raised in a devoutly Catholic home and is the country’s leading gay activist, who is Dan Savage to say anything at all about the ages-old Christian condemnation of gay people? So what if his claim is manifestly valid that nothing contributes more to the destruction of the lives of gay people than do Christians falsely and hypocritically using the Bible as an instrument of brutality? So what if he believes that among the most egregious of all Christian sins is daring to proclaim that God’s love ends where their own fear and hatred begin? So what if every day, for decades on end, Dan Savage has dealt with young lives obliterated through violence informed and buttressed by the bedrock “Christian” view that gay people are less than human?
So what if any reasonably compassionate person should be expected to vigorously assert that it’s time for all Christians to reject using the Bible as a means of justifying the persecution of an entire population whose only “crime” is to prefer to spend their lives with same-sex partners?
Why should any of that matter? What matters is that Dan Savage cursed. He said bull**** not once, but three times.
Three! That’s one more than two! Which is two too many!
You know, it’s almost like the people who put on this conference, as well as a small but now (thanks, media machine!) significant number of individuals who attended it, don’t even know what the word “journalism” means.
Well, thank you, young people who walked out of Dan’s speech the moment he began talking about the parts of the Bible to which he takes exception, for reminding us of what beats so passionately in the heart and soul of every true journalist. Speaking as a person who for twelve years made his living as a journalist, I admire your dedication to the journalist’s creed: When you personally disagree with something someone is saying, get up and leave.
If that’s not what Jesus meant by, “The truth shall set you free,” I can’t imagine what he did mean.
P.S. What immediately become a meme amongst Dan’s critics is that those who walked out of his talk felt bullied by him. But that’s impossible. People get bullied because of who they are: how they look and act, what they say and do. Perceived as being in some critical way weak or lacking, victims of bullies are selected for persecution; they are pulled from the pack before being pointedly and repeatedly victimized. The people who walked out during Dan’s talk were not separated from their peers by anyone. They were content to do that themselves. They were not frightened or cowed. They were offended. They felt that by disparaging what amounts to their God, Dan had transgressed beyond their capacity for toleration. And they were pleased to show their intolerance of Dan’s words by protesting against them in the manner they did. Theirs was not an act born of suffering. It was a proud show of disdain.
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I like Dan Savage. What he says makes me uncomfortable, but I completely understand why he’s asking. Why are we, as the church, so afraid of questions like this? I almost sure God isn’t.
i want to make out with dan savage.
Me too!
Me too. His partner is one lucky man!!!!!!!!
Me too. Totally.
Yes!
Absolutely agree 100% with your PS. Offended – yes. Persecuted – not even close.
I have noticed a pervasive perception among my conservative and traditionalist friends that when people openly disagree with them they throw the persecution/judging card. Disagreement is not persecution. And saying so out loud is not judgement. I’m not sure how we turn this misguided perception and understanding around, but I think it needs addressing.
To me it is a bruised ego reaction: “How dare you say I am wrong. Or even suggest it. Just – how DARE you!” Folks who are certain of their rightness, and taught to be so, are too easily offended when anyone even breathes the suggestion that their values might be based on inaccurate beliefs or information. Convictions are convictions after all – and they don’t compromise on those. To do so is perceived to be weak in the faith. So to listen to anyone who disagrees with them – Well! They might as well be giving pause to listen the devil himself. This is the great chasm that divides those who have reconciled their faith with reason and self-awareness and those who hold to a faith that shuns reason. When you are taught that reason is the enemy of faith, what hope is there?
Amen, Christy
Wisely and so insightfully stated. !!
Thank You John! This is AWESOME!…..Never will a day pass that I won’t read your words of encouragement!
The more I think about it, the more it seems that this was a planned walkout.
The kids got up almost IMMEDIATELY after Dan Savage mentioned the Bible. And none of them looked shocked or offended — as others have noted, many were smiling a self-righteous kind of smile.
The very few times I’ve been offended enough by someone to leave the room, it was a much more gradual process: “Did he just say what I think he said? OK, where is he going with this… Does anyone else look uncomfortable? I don’t think this is right. OK, now I feel really uncomfortable and offended. I think I’m just going to leave.” And anyone who noticed me would have seen I was visibly shaken/upset.
They certainly had every right to walk out if they wanted to, but I think it’s a huge stretch to say that they walked out because Dan Savage was “bullying” them.
Oh, it’s obviously pre-planned. And the fact that Dan was a keynote speaker just makes it more likely that these kids were prepped to walk out the minute he opened his mouth. They started walking before he said anything other than “Let’s talk about the Bible for a minute.”
Yeah, that’s being bullied.
This is just awesome. Dan and John, well done. As Dan points out, bullies don’t much like it when the victim hits back.
What is telling is the fact that so many Christians have elevated the Bible to be the fourth member of the Trinity.
Good thing the offended kids didn’t hit back. They simply walked away, which is what victims of bullying are taught to do. That took more courage than lashing out at Mr. Savage’s free speech rights, who has the right to be wrong.
If you don’t believe in the inerrancy (sp?) of scripture, that’s your peroggative ( I think I mispelled this word too, ha-ha), but don’t indirectly put down those that do believe this with this type of cynical comment. How about agreeing to disagree?
Tree: Re the absurd assertion that the people who walked out of Dan’s talk felt bullied by him, please see my added P.S. at the end of this post.
Good P.S., John. For that matter, good blog post.
BTW: Is Tree one of our “brave” friends who posts under a different name everytime s/he posts, or is this a new poster? Or is that none of my business?
I do believe in the inerrancy of scripture. I simply do not subscribe to the inerrancy of translation.
Point in fact, no translation of the bible prior to 1950 had the word homosexual. Our parents and grandparents added the 6 clobber verses in the latter half of the last century. Up until then, the “bible” was not very effective at beating back the LGBT community. However, after some (rather blatant) improvements, it became a very effective weapon.
This obvious, fear-induced editing process that has taken place in the last 50 years has led to (IMHO) incorrect conclusions like Dan’s. It is not that the word of God that is “bullshit”, it’s our poorly motivated attempts at clarifying God that is bullshit.
The translations into modern American English are good but they are not perfect. If they were perfect, there would only need to be one. When I realized the mistake my parent’s and grandparent’s generation, I was, at first devastated but ultimately encouraged.
So true, Ric. I often forget about all the translation issues. Thanks!
I’ll agree in some cases that the issue is translation. But translation does not cover things like stoning a non-virgin on her wedding night, the uncleanliness of menstruation, or the prohibitions against shellfish and pork. Or the clear thread throughout both the old and new testaments that slavery is a moral neutral if you do it right.
It’s simply not reasonable to say that there was some eternally valid positive that has simply been mistranslated to give us those ideas.
The people who wrote the Bible got some things deeply, deeply wrong.
And you don’t even have to step outside the Bible to recognize that. The New Testament explicitly includes things that bluntly state that they are overriding the old law, and it also includes a clear statement that people weren’t ready for all the lessons God had to teach and that the Holy Spirit would continue our moral education throughout the ages.
We got the message on slavery and deli selections.
Now is the time to get the message on sexual orientation, bullying, and the apparently novel concept that love is of God and anyone who loves is born of God and knows God, which, coupled with the concept that in Christ there is neither male nor female, sets the stage for a Christian understanding of same-sex love.
If pointing out people’s scripture-based hypocrisy is bullying, you might note that Jesus did a lot of that. Was He bullying the Pharisees?
I agree, Lymis. What survived the cut (canon) is another example of our very human editing process. The mistaken, fear-based bias of every generation from the start are present in the bible. And it shows.
It’s important to remember that Old Testament slaves were released every seven years unless they chose to remain. It wasn’t the life-long, race-based slavery of recent history.
It’s also important to remember that Leviticus was a covenant with the people of Israel to set them apart from the tribes around them and the practices of the Egyptians. Some of the strictures will not make sense to us, ever, because we do not know the sorts of cultures they were immersed in and why those particular acts were so radically different than the other cultures. We also have to remember that this was a ragtag group of people who needed to survive and thrive and grow amidst those hostile tribes. The to’ebah laws weren’t to make people moral, they were to make the Israelites clearly separate. But the requirements of the covenant between God and Israel are no more applicable to non-Jews than my marriage vows to my husband and arrangements with him are applicable to someone not us.
You’re wrong. The Leviticus principles apply to everyone. Christ did not come to remove the obligation of the law, but to fulfil it! We must NOT pick and choose which of God’s principles we apply to our own lives. I understand we’re now under Grace, but we still must honor the spirit of the Law.
You must realize that Leviticus deals with at least a dozen tenants about living including don’t steal, kill, etc… It not just about dietary issues.
Good Lord, your victimization is so scary. It really is. If you want to raise your children with the belief that homosexuality is against God and also teach them that being obedient means saying so out loud and voting for that religious belief to be part of our legal code? Then get used to people being *angry* with them about that and saying so because it HURTS them. What is so difficult for you to understand about that? It’s so odd to see those of you who are adults actually demand that the people you hurt be kind to you when they are telling you the truth about what your free speech has done to them.
Hit back at what? The idea that slavery is wrong? You want a group of high school Christians standing on video screaming that yes, they have a right to own people and that no homo is allowed to tell them not to stone non-virgins to death?
Really?
“He has the tight to be wrong.”
I’ll agree that he has that right. But just what are you asserting that he was wrong about? What is it that we are supposed to agree to disagree with you about? Owning people? Refusing to touch a menstruating woman? Stoning people whose sexual history we disapprove of? Do tell, because I’d had to agree to disagree about any of that.
i felt bad for the one Black girl that left at the end.
Why?
I feel bad for the gay kids some of the ones who walked out will be bullying.
you’re right of course.
what i said wasn’t clear because i didn’t figure out how to put it into words at the time… but let me try now:
i feel like everybody who belongs to a group that is or has been marginalized should have solidarity (of course really everybody should have solidarity, but you know what i mean) and i felt like she was missing out on that.
like she stayed for him talking about us figuring out that the Bible got slavery wrong. but then she couldn’t extrapolate from her (probable) ancestors’ struggle to someone else’s struggle.
like back when i only could understand the civil rights and immigrants’ rights and disability rights movements, but could not see that gay rights was part of that… i was really missing out on something.
does that make more sense now? re-reading it, maybe it doesn’t after all…
Don’t compare being black with being gay… what an insult!
He failed to point out that Abolishionists (William Wilberforce i.e.) came to a complely different conclusion about the atrocities of slavery than the southern slave owners did …using the Bible. Also, American slavery is a completely different issue than middle eastern endentured slavery, popular in Bible times. One is forced, the other CAN be volunteery for purposes of survival.
LOVE that analogy. I hope it goes viral.
Sometimes I do wish I were cisgendered and straight. Just so I could be free to not care and walk out, like those kids.
It wasn’t so much their walking out, it was their relaxed smiles and chatter with their friends as they did. Some of them were clearly nervous, but it really meant nothing to them, just a blip on their radar.
I guess I just run out of ways to say, “This makes me so profoundly sad my extensive vocabulary is powerless to express it. Please stop, guys.”
But your lovely alliteration did certainly help cheer me up, John. Snappy writing never fails in that regard
.
Love Dan.
You’re slightly avoiding the issue here, which isn’t that he cursed, or that he said Christians should stop using the Bible to justify hatred, but that he called parts of the Bible bullshit. Which I happen to agree with. I am not a literalist or a believer that God somehow miraculously preserved the Bible (and apparently nothing else on Earth) in a state of perfection. The Bible is words of people writing about their encounters with God. It’s TESTIMONY. Some of those people were full of shit, and their testimony should be rejected. I can be a Christian and believe that, just as I can believe one side of a court case even though one of the witnesses for that side was obviously lying. Without in the least needing to learn the meanings of obscure ancient words so that I can explain what exactly Paul was thinking when he said (obscure ancient word having to do with homosexuals) weren’t getting into heaven, because I don’t think Paul is God. Paul was mostly a great guy, don’t get me wrong, and inspired, sometimes, by God. But he wasn’t God.
The level of hyper-sensitivity these kids displayed reminds me of the Islamic ‘leaders’ who complained about the ‘blasphemous’ depiction of the Prophet in a Dutch newspaper cartoon a few years ago. Why are people so threatened by the idea that we live in a world where not everyone believes the same things?
It’s OK to diagree, especially under our constituion. What we need to quit doing is demonizing opposing points of view. Mr. Savage was guilty of displaying the same attitude and rhetoric he was accusing the “narrow-minded homophobes, etc…” he was lashing out against of. The kids simply did what they are instructed to do when bullied …walk away.
Those “other points of view” are causing children to kill themselves.
Forgive some of us our unwillingness to hold said points of view as worthy of equal consideration.
Snap!
You *already* demonize this community when you tell them that God’s Word says they are sinful and evil as a result of something they cannot change. It doesn’t matter how kindly you say it – you do it. Face it, for God’s sake! Face the consequences of your decisions! It’s not spiritual warfare, you’re not being bullied and nor are those kids. They – and you – are being told the TRUTH. Face it! Stop using Jesus to shirk hearing what the GLBT community is telling you.
“It’s OK to diagree, especially under our constituion. What we need to quit doing is demonizing opposing points of view”
You’re quick to claim the cover of the Constitution, while defending discrimination against your fellow citizens.
Two thirds of the states in the United States have laws or Constitutional Amendments preventing gay citizens from exercising the legal right to choose their spouse that is officially declared to be a fundamental right of all citizens by the US Supreme Court.
Two states are in the process of passing laws that make it illegal to even mention anything other than heterosexual relationships is public schools – by teachers or students, including by those who are themselves gay, have gay parents, or gay family members.
All but one of the candidates running for the Presidential nomination of the Republican party signed a pledge supporting permanently preventing gay couples from marrying.
Gay kids throughout the country are being bullied for being gay, and are killing themselves in record numbers because of it.
Just what is it that you feel constitutes “demonizing opposing points of view?”
Because the bar for intolerance is set pretty damn high by the people you are defending. When you feel “At the bare minimum, before you condemn someone else, follow the standards you demand of them, or you’re a hypocrite” is bullying, much less demonizing, you certainly don’t belong making moral assertions about just about anything. You might want to get your moral compass fixed. It isn’t pointing where you think it is.
Well said tree! Just don’t be surprised by the illogic and fallacious responses you will get here.
Snort.
Pot, may I introduce you to Kettle?
Tim, are you a tree hugger?
Thankfully the Tims of the world are a dying generation. We need about 5-10 more years until this kind of creepy hostility guised as “the Truth of Jesus” is stamped out. Our priority is getting to the gay kids that Tim is hurting and doesn’t care about and making sure we minimize their contact with him as much as possible while we repair the damage he does.
This is what I’ve finally come to accept. I didn’t want to because there are so many good people who are still harboring these old, antiquated beliefs. But it’s time to accept that people like Tim Do. Not. Care about gay kids dying. They just don’t. I WANT them to, I want them to see them as Jesus sees them. I want the Tims of the world to be courageous enough to open his eyes and see what he’s doing. But he’s not motivated. He doesn’t care. I don’t want to believe it but it’s time to acknowledge the level of depravity these people have sunk to. It’s made them completely indifferent to the realities of what these kids are experiencing. Our only strategy at this point needs to be protecting the GLBT community from people like this, getting between them whenever possible and offering the face of the true Jesus Christ. It’s going to be very painful but we have to stop expecting anything from these people. They don’t care.
Thanks Tim. I was starting to wonder if anyone else in here elevated God’s opinion over their own.
Exactly!
Allie, this is one of the most reasonable things I have ever read about the Bible and modern Christianity in America. The Bible is a historical document; a collection of the writings of many, many people over centuries. While I’m sure much of it is truly inspired, some of it has also been manipulated to support whatever elites were in power at the time. And, probably most importantly, it is in some languages long lost to time, subject to modern interpretations. And, those interpretations can also be manipulated.
Look: let’s grow up here. We can respect the Bible, while still understanding exactly what it really is. We must stop assuming it is the “unadulterated Word of God.” God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He can speak for himself.
That obscure ancient word had nothing to do with homosexuals, actually. Unless you think men can commit homosexuality with their wives.
I’ve already gotten into this on my Facebook.
First, bullying happens privately. Not in public. People need to educate themselves on what “bullying” is, it doesn’t happen in public while being videotaped, for goodness sake.
Second – and in the context of this topic – I am shocked at the level of emotional immaturity and low character that Christians who believe homosexuality is wrong demonstrate when directly confronted with the *impact* of their free speech on those at which it is targeted. Can someone explain this to me so it doesn’t make me sick to my stomach each time I see it?
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit lives in us if we have accepted Him as our Savior. Why in God’s green earth are Christians who claim this experience so terrified of conflict and facing the consequences of their behavior (in this instance, free speech)? My experience of Jesus has made me so much bolder in conflict. So much more willing to really listen to the negative impact I’ve had – even if my intent was good – because I’m not afraid of looking at things. Perfect Love casts out all fear. This fear-based response that causes these people to withdraw and isolate is not only dangerous for them, it’s so horrible for the Gospel in general.
Our constitution gives us the right to disagree peacefully. They felt bullied, so they did what they are instructed to do, walk away. Believe me, this what not the first time they have heard this type of propaganda. Some kids are sheltered from these types of comments to some extent, but most young Christians have this party line before. It’s not always immaturity that motivates people to retreat from certain situations. Sometimes it’s the scriptural thing to do. Presumption is a major problem in scripture (Job’s friends). Don’t assume you understood why they needed to get out of there. We can agree to disagree, OK?
By the way I don’t understand your comment about bullying only occuring privately. I have seen major examples of it out in the open, all my life.
The definition of bullying is when a weaker party is harassed and intimidated within a power structure by those, in that context, who hold power. We as Christians are the majority in this country, we are not “bullied”. As a matter of fact you could walk away from this conversation right now because you’re not being spoken according to your specific terms of being “respected” and your life won’t change. It will go on just like usual. You need to educate yourself on what bullying really is and how power is involved.
As for the constitution, no, it most certainly does not provide the right for us to disagree “peacefully”. That language is most certainly not in the constitution, you are adding that qualifier because you want to be spoken kindly to – as a matter of fact, most Christians (including these kids who walked out) expect it. You *expect* the Bible to be spoken about respectfully. You *expect* to be spoken to kindly, even when someone disagrees with you.
Well now you and those kids are facing people who’ve been so damaged by your “right to disagree” and saying so that you’re getting a fateful of their hurt, their injury and their rage at you for how they’ve been abused and oppressed at the hands of your theology. They’re being honest with you. Have the courage of Christ – have the humility to really examine what they are saying to you – the courage to really listen – instead of falling back to “Gosh I’m just talking about my beliefs here and everyone seems to be mad at me for it. That must mean I’m being spiritually attacked.” Let their anger being an activating agent for you instead of defaulting to what is comfortable. Face the fear of realizing you might have gotten this one horribly, horribly wrong. Do it quickly, there’s not a lot of time left.
Re: “They felt bullied.”
No. John is right. They were offended that someone called the Bible bullshit. That has nothing to do with demeaning an individual based on who they are, taunting, belittling, emotionally, verbally, or physically intimidating or abusing them. It’s disagreeing with something they believe. Not the same thing.
Re: “It’s not always immaturity that motivates people to retreat from certain situations.”
No. But a lot of time it’s a bruised ego.
As someone who has the honour of preaching God’s living word each Sunday, I am not surprised that some don’t like Dan’s words.
But what is more important than those who walked out is those that stayed to hear Dan’s words. In them God is working wonders, in them are God’s shepherds living out not in words but in actions Christ’s life and ministry in the world.
We are God’s Shepherds who are tasked with taking God’s living word out into the world. For God so loved the world. Period. No conditions. No exceptions.
Enough said…or else I’ll start sermonizing again…but I am now on study leave so I’ll stop writing.
Right you are, the people who stayed are the important ones, the people who left are just attention-needy and/or too rigid in their thinking for a journalism career anyway.
By “Rigid” you actually mean, people with deep convictions who felt compelled to protest peacefully. It’s what we are taught to do in this pluralistic society. Don’t be overly presumptious about their motivations. You simply simply don’t know why they got up and left.
So are you implying that to have a “succesful” journalisn career you have to have the opposite view, accept everything that’s thrown at you without research and discernment? We need to question everything until we do our research.
So, the people who stayed are “the important ones”, willing to accept this propoganda without question. Now we wonder why our media is so biased. By the way, I have had a successful career in journalism and have learned to question everything.
To have a successful journalistic career, you cannot put your own injured feelings in the way of getting to the truth of someone’s experience. Dan Savage spoke to his and his community’s experience of Christians. He did so honestly. It’s information that is out there and being repeated in a lot of other places, it’s a *pattern* of reaction. And those kids walked away. Journalists don’t walk away from pursuing the actual story. They did and you’re enabling it.
Exactly.
Listening to whole talk is “accepting … without question”?
Journalism consists, in large part, of hearing and seeing things you don’t like, things that offend you, so that you can report on them. Paying attention so that you CAN question.
Exactly what propaganda. If you listen to the clip, Dan isn’t saying that the Bible as a whole is bullshit, nor, if you listen to what he means, is his point that people shouldn’t be paying attention the Bible.
He lists a number of things that are far more explicitly condemned in the Bible than anything relating to loving committed same-sex relationships, and then points out that the same people who say that they have to condemn gay people because the Bible says so are perfectly willing to overlook other things that are condemned.
What propaganda?
Are you actually saying that you think slavery should be supported and regulated as a Christian activity rather than condemned outright?
Are you saying that women are unclean during menstruation and cannot even be touched until they are publicly ritually purified?
Are you saying that eating shellfish or pork is an abomination before God?
Are you saying that women should be publicly murdered in front of their parents if they are not virgins on their wedding day?
Because if you aren’t saying those things, then you are agreeing with what Dan said. You might not phrase it the same way, but anyone who knows his work knows that his language was extremely restrained. And if you don’t think a room full of high school students know and use the word “bullshit” on a regular basis, you’re incredibly out of touch.
So where’s this bullying you speak of?
Or is it just that you are offended that a gay man dares tell the truth that all of the rest of us agree with?
So were the students who walked out “peacefully protesting” or were they “bullied into leaving”? You can’t have it both ways, dear.
Semantics. Neither of us knows for sure, but that won’t stop you from speculating about it will it?
“By “Rigid” you actually mean, people with deep convictions who felt compelled to protest peacefully.”
I thought you said they were being bullied. There’s a big difference between being bullied and protesting peacefully.
I’d be very interested to hear the private discussions happening all over that campus now. No doubt that well ordered beehive has been much agitated.
So true. Thanks for that encouragement, much appreciated!!
Dan Savage is the bomb-diggety-bomb. Period, end of story.
There is a good chance that all of the kids who walked out go to Christian school(s). Likely they were instructed in some way to walk out by their chaperone(s) who were in attendance.
It’s still a big mistake. How can you be a journalist if you’re unwilling to observe or hear things that disturb you or that you disagree with?
I think you’re probably right.
You have no idea whether they go to Christian schools or not. But that point of view reaffirms your pre-conceived (also called prejudice) point of view rather conveniently.
I think the students were showboating. I think they would have found an excuse to walk out regardless.
I think you are right…. If even PG13 movies are allowed 1 f-bomb, I can’t see how a couple or three BSs should even raise an eyebrow. I thought journalists were supposed to have critical thinking skills?
Pure speculation on your part.
Your point being?
Actually, it’s not. You can see the first student walking out at 20 seconds. Savage has yet to say anything remotely offensive. A half dozen other students are headed out before he has finished his first, “You can ignore the bullshit…” sentence. They were out of their seats and walking out before he finished that sentence. This was planned in advance. They were not offended, they were looking for attention.
Well said, John! I have seen some of the negative responses to Dan Savage’s words. However, I am a Christian and believe the Bible and heartily applaud Mr. Savage’s words. He knows quite well what he is speaking about–both intellectually and from personal experience. I am quite tired of those Christians who claim to be victimized when challenged concerning their use of Sacred Scripture to foment hatred. They might just try to find out what so many of us Gay people have endured at the hands of these people and, all too often without the ordinary resources which heterosexuals –and especially heterosexual children–take for granted. The bashing can seem utterly relentless–from strangers, school colleagues, work colleagues, co-coreligionists, from the pulpit, Cardinals of the Roman Church (ie. Card. George of Chicago and his “Gay Pride =a KKK rally” remarks), Kirk Cameron’s insensitive and stupid remarks, and on and on………………………..
The misrepresentation and misuse of the “clobber verses” has had and does have such drastic consequences! And those interpretations are Bul***t.
So if you are so offended, why don’t you lash out at the Muslim community as well? They HATE your activity even more than Christians.
Don’t be ridiculous. Muslims don’t hold the majority voting power in this country, to insert them into the dialogue is only to distract from the points being made.
And if we are staying on point and being precise, I would have to say I, and many others here, oppose religious extremism and religious Fundamentalism in all of the Abrahamic faiths. Since I am a Christian, I speak out against Christian Fundamentalism because that’s the faith I have some skin in and as a participant I get to have some say in it…. just as we encourage peaceful Muslims to speak out against Islamic Fundamentalism.
“They HATE your activity even more than Christians.”
First, it is disingenuous to say Muslims or some Christians hate “your activity”. If you mean this personally, you (and they) have no idea of what “my activity” is. WHAT some Christians hate is the sexual orientation of being homosexual. They often try to say it is a choice and therefore blameworthy.
I know that many homosexuals have been put to death in places where Sharia law prevails. And this is as outrageous as the attempts in Uganda to make homosexuality a capital crime which Scott Lively has aided (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively). Dan Savage has also written to condemn these outrages.
Unfortunately the “haters”continue to tell lies about Gay people and while cloaking their attitude in a “Love the sinner;Hate the sin” rhetoric continue to condemn Gay People for WHO they are. The Phelps religious clan/cult carries signs saying “God Hates Fags!” Not “God hates those who do Faggy things.”
Second, I have not (yet) seen Muslims in this country carrying such signs, nor am I aware of Muslims –in America–beating up and killing Gay people. Nor am I aware of them taking to the airwaves to lie about LGBTQ people as Falwell, Robertson, Osteen, and many others who claim the title of Christian preacher/minister. The Christians of this ilk are more threatening–and their hateful words do have real consequences for LGBTQ people.
I don’t condone any of the hate-mongers. You assumed way too much.
Stop pretending that you speak for all Christians. You’re either uninformed or lying.
Muslims, for whatever reason, have not injected themselves into our politics. They have not politicized this issue. They are, in fact, surprisingly quiet about it and many other of our social issues, one of which is THEM!!!!!
and AWESOME.
Dan is very much the LGBT equivalent of Bill Maher; he’s going to tell you what he thinks, and if you don’t always agree, he’s good with that. He’s said stronger things than this. He’s called the Old Testament a “book of ancient desert superstitions”, and actually, IMHO, he has a point.
Thanks for posting this John, as always.
The GOP line is funny as hell.
Another fine example of mass stereotyping. That’s healthy, constructive …and totally innacurate.
Laughing at a joke is “mass stereotyping”? “Mass stereotyping” is redundant – to “stereotype” is to make a generalization based on large groups of people. Are you really a journalist? With all due respect, you don’t seem to be defining terms with any kind of precision which is exactly what journalists do.
Yeah…but this ass-hat’s spelling is flawless.
Journalists have it rough.
Sorry…I shouldn’t have called someone a nasty name. Just woke up on the wrong side of the bed with a case of the “Monday’s” I guess. Sorry Tree! Hope you can pick up the pieces and go on with your life!
Do you do anything other than troll? I mean, who’s minding the bridge, Mr. Meister Master Man?
Totally inaccurate that we have no idea where the GOP is going to go from where they are?
Seems pretty dead on to me. My late parents wouldn’t recognize today’s Republican party as the one they supported all their lives.
And, you can’t argue that the official party platforms in most states and at the federal level are anti-gay, and that Republican lawmakers have recently ramped up anti-sex and anti-contraception legislation.
Hyperbole, certainly. Snark, definitely. Inaccuracy? Hardly.
Calista Gingrich LIVES! Hilarious.
“podium-pounding pontificator peddling in people’s perplexingly perverse predilections”
Absolutely delicious, Mr. Shore.
That was just killer John! And I loved your octo-alliterative summation of the Savage himself!
I personally think PantyAssed is way ruder word than BullShit. But then what do i know… (~_^)
Also that was not a RANT. A rant feels like the person is freaking out and shouting, and you can tell it’s a rant even if you agree with them. That in the video was a deliberate and very nearly calm calling-out of hypocrisy.
And definitely not a Tirade. Same reason.
Crap. It was “pansy-assed” which i assume he, as a gay male, was using ironically.
I really need that hearing aid soon. (>_<)
Totally agree. I was stumped when I finally got around to watching the video because I was expecting a rant.
Bravo. As for the others? Having your delicate sensibilities offended on occasion is the price you pay to live in a free society.
My issue isn’t having the freedom of dissent. My problem is the mass stereotyping and distortion by Mr. Savage. This guy picks and chooses the sections of scripture that reafirms his position and throws out the rest.
Christians like William Wilberforce were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement! Most Christians are dead set against ANY form of slavery.
Savage took a broad brush and painted every Christian in favor of slavery, and that’s just ONE of the issues. This tirade is nothing short of slander and distortion, that’s not responsible “journalism” at all.
As a Christian in today’s society, I am CONSTANTLY offended every time I watch or listen to the mainstream media with it’s progressive bias. Nothing new in that experience for me, so don’t act like we live sheltered lives.
Did you listen to Dan, or are you just reacting to what you want to have heard? He didn’t stereotype Christians. He pointed to the fact that the Bible they use to bash the world over the head with is full of strictures that Christians disregard without a second thought while they cling to one verse to justify their treatment of gay people — strictures that appear in the very same purity code. If that wasn’t clear, let me recommend a course of ear-wax removal by your friendly local otolaryngologist and then regular, frequent use of cotton swabs to keep the ear canals open.
I’ll have my ears cleaned out if you agree to use your spell checker next time. It’s “scriptures” not scrictures. ha-ha. I interpreted that section a little differently than you did. it’s OK, really.
The words “strictures” and “scriptures” have quite different meanings.
Well there’s a nasty little shot at someone’s spelling. Always nice to see the Christians start with the low blows . Ugh.
Pretty sure Piet did actually mean strictures as he said and spelled correctly. It makes perfect sense in the context in which it was written. Pretty funny really, for a supposed journalist Treemeister doesn’t seem to have much of a vocabulary.
My mistake, you’re right. I learned a new word today.
Since this converation is one sided, how about twatching this video clip so we can achieve some balance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxIWf7qrcZM&feature=g-u-u
The first four and a half minutes seemed reasonable enough. I actually thought it might be a good idea for Dan Savage to address these things. Well before James White here suggests something similar but more formal at the end of the clip, I had even considered that it might be interesting to have a live via web-cam Internet debate between them. As I got further into the video, however, I grew increasingly skeptical of the fruitfulness of any such thing, because, at the heart of it, they appear to be addressing entirely different issues actually.
In any case, by minute five however, James White seems to demonstrate an (willful?) inability to understand hyperbole and perhaps ignorance of the fact that Dan Savage’s background includes nearly equivalent biblical training to that of a typical Catholic priest.
And in minute nine—seriously?—he actually tries to defend the owning of your fellow man, provided he’s otherwise indigent and you don’t do it for too long or else succeed in inducing Stockholm syndrome.
And though he acknowledges in the beginning Dan’s stated purpose in defending himself (and by extension, homosexuality generally), around minute twelve, he talks like Dan was attempting—or that he was trying to trick us into thinking that his argument constituted—“serious scholarship”. The sort of rigor he’s expecting is for adults, while Dan was addressing high school kids in a way they as well as we can understand, assuming, that is, that our education system hasn’t utterly failed them, as it is wont to do regarding religious studies, such that we cannot be sure they necessarily know what “Leviticus” even is!
And in minute thirteen, James is pointing the finger at the Muslim world and saying, in essence, “those guys are worse”, as if this were any kind of defense! (Good pronunciation of “Qur’an” though!) And again, the place that Dan is coming from on this is the prejudice that he himself has been subject to and which best connects with his audience (whether as inheritors of or victims of such a prejudice).
The only thing sadder than somebody falling on the old the “you can’t spell” comeback is when said person does so to point out a word that is actually spelled correctly. You need to broaden your vocabulary before you try to become the grammar police. Get a dictionary. Look up stricture. You’ll see that it was both spelled correctly and the perfect word to use in this case.
Oh, my. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot.
Treemeister, you missed the point entirely. He in no way stated that ALL Christians did any such thing – not that they supported slavery, nor that they all use the Bible to bash gays. He compared the “clobber passages” to HOW the Bible was used by SOME Christians to justify slavery. He pointed out the hypocrisy of insisting on to-the-letter following of SOME Bible verses, but not all.
You can be CONSTANTLY offended – I’m often offended by much that I see in the media – but you are distorting Mr. Savage’s statement in the same sentence in which you accuse him of distortion!
Journalism is about honestly reporting, without bias, the facts. All of them. He is here, but he’s also never claimed to be a journalist. He is an advice guru. Big difference.
Ironic isn’t it, how this expert at the anti-bullying conference bullies the Christians to demonstrate the devastating affect of bullying. Wow, what a genius!
Dan Savage has saved literally, hundreds of lives via the Trevor Project. Given you’re quite adamant about how damaging he is, please provide all of us with the Christian organization that organized around saving gay children from suicide – the #1 at-risk group of teens to do so. Please provide us with those names. Thanks.
Disagreeing with someone publicly and their views is not bullying. What aspect of what he said do you think qualifies as bullying?
Because he essentially was saying that it’s bullshit to prohibit people from marrying or having equal rights or holding a job or being a member of a group or patronizing a business or preventing people from renting or buying a house or treating anyone differently at all because they eat shellfish. Also a Levitical abomination.
Thank you, Christy. You said it better than I did.
He mocked them and called them childish names when they went to the lobby, just one example.
How many Jewish students walked out? It’s Leviticus after all. If we use the same logic, Jewish students would have been offended as well. Right? Why or why not?
How do you know none of these students are Jewish?
How did he bully Christians? By stating his honest opinion? I agree with him. What a bunch of pansy-asses. In fact, that may be too kind a term for them.
I’ve walked out of lectures I didn’t agree with before. In no way did I feel bullied. To compare choosing to walk out of a lecture with bullying is ridiclulous. Choosing to walk out of a lecture is an expression of your rights as an individual. Those young people were asserting their rights; they were not in any way being bullied. Forcing them to somehow stay and listen would’ve been bullying. Did you see that happening?
You do realize that this wasn’t an anti-bullying conference? It was a journalism conference.
If those teens were “devastated” then they certainly covered it well. And you have a very strange definition of bullying.
“You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish.”
Yet when I honestly express myself in a way that’s “Edgy”. Most of the people on this blog want to hand my head to me. Why the double standard?
Your issue is that you want to believe that this is a “massive generalization” when in fact, the *majority voting block* that disrupts the legal rights of the GLBT community – including laws that would protect gay kids from specific bullying – are Christian. Every. Single. Organization that rallies around the prevention of gay marriage is Christian. Every single organization that is organized around taking down gay bullying programs in schools? Christian. Who is voting against gay marriage? Christians.
The majority of Evangelical churches refuse to allow gay men and women to serve in ministry. I could go on and on and on. The majority of Christians in this country are the root cause of this problem. And they – we, actually – should all be willing to hold ourselves personally responsible until we clean up this sickening, evil mess we’ve caused, though our direct behavior, through the passive helplessness as we stand by and watch others publicly abuse gay men and women and the victimization we claim as we are lumped in with “the bad Christians”. All three are toxic.
GLBT’s have full legal rights in this country already. They are protected under the Constitution the same as any other American citize. That’s really not the issue. What the GLBT community really wants is to be condoned by the straight community and to promote their worldview. It just Isn’t going to happen. The activity of a GLBT is sin, plain and simple. It doesn’t mean that person should be discriminated against. It doesn’t mean they should be disrespected. It simply means there is a different point of view. We can agree to disagree in this pluralistic society, but it doesn’t change that basic fact. So, don’t try to demonize the people that disagree with you by stereotyping them as homophobes, or ignorant or cruel. Look past harsh judgement towards people that disagree with you, as we look past your sin (and our own as well), and let’s try to pull it all together and go forward.
“GLBT’s have full legal rights in this country already.”
GLBT people can be fired from a job for no other reason than the fact that they are GLBT. They can be kicked out of their apartment for no other reason than the fact that they are GLBT. Until recently, they could be kicked out of the military for no other reason than the fact that they are GLBT. In most states, they are not allowed to legally marry the person they love…a right afforded to all straight people by virtue of their orientation. And even in the few states that do have marriage equality, the federal government still gets to deny GLBT couples most of the rights and privileges straight married people take for granted. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but what country do YOU live in, where GLBT people have full legal rights? Because it’s certainly not the USA.
That is so wrong in so many ways! This goes to show how narrow minded some people are! Being Gay is NOT a Sin! Hate is! Wake up, believe in the WORD, not just a few passages! The world will be better off when LOVE replaces HATE in the rhetoric!
Well dear, you can certainly define what “the issue” is if you want to but you don’t get the last word on that. The GLBT community actually gets the last word on “the issue” as it pertains to them.
And I know you want to define things in “simplistic” terms but we don’t live in a theocracy. You can’t seem to grasp that your specific theology does not translate into civil and legal codes.
Nor can you seem to grasp that your conclusion that “GLBT activity is sin, plain and simple” *IS* demonizing a huge group of people. You are either unwilling or incapable of seeing that. You can’t see that you’ve already passed “judgment” on them just by writing all of that down and writing it in a place where literally, thousands of gay men and women read. You just judged them and in the same breath, demanded that you aren’t “demonized” for it when what you just said is a direct causation to gay kids going into despair and killing themselves.
I’m done dealing with those of you who offer your glossy-coated niceties about not judging anyone as a way of getting out of this conversation which is exactly what you’ve done. Face yourself. Face the consequences of the judgment you throw our their so casually and so declaratively. Face the impact, you’re not getting a pass and you are most certainly, no longer being let off the hook for it. You are responsible for the pain and abuse inflicted on this community in the name of Jesus. Care enough to face it. If you don’t – if you can’t do it – pray for the courage to. Pray for the character to really accept it. Do it quickly.
I’m
“GLBT’s have full legal rights in this country already. They are protected under the Constitution the same as any other American citize. That’s really not the issue.”
Allow me to quote Dan Savage and say “bullshit.” LGBT people do not have the same rights as other citizens – marriage alone, and at the federal level along conveys over 1100 specifically documented rights to straight couples that gay people cannot get any other way, including things like social security, the right to sponsor a spouse for citizenship, a large number of tax and inheritance situations and so on. Add in no protections at the federal level from being fired for being gay (nor in the majority of states), and a wide variety of other things – in two states, the Republican legislatures are trying pass laws making it illegal to even discuss gay people in public schools. How’s that for equality?
Damn right we want to be “condoned.” We are citizens. We don’t want our “lifestyle” promoted. We want to be free to live it with the same rights, privileges and obligations of all our fellow citizens.
We’re not trying “try to demonize the people that disagree with you by stereotyping them as homophobes” – we’re pointing out that people who are behaving like homophobes are, in fact, homophobes.
Seriously, you pontificate that “gay people want to be condoned, and it just isn’t going to happen” and then get upset that you are seen as a homophobe? What a strange world you seem to live in. Your disagreement with us doesn’t make you a homophobe. Your homophobia does that just fine.
Since this converation is one sided, how about watching this video clip so we can achieve some balance here. We’ll see how tolerant you are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxIWf7qrcZM&feature=g-u-u
There is too much to disagree with via my phone. Christian Apologetics for slavery, be it in the Bible or the Old South, is only secondary to Christian support for slavery in it completely missing an understanding of Divine Justice. It is an unholy and disingeuous argument. And this person’s cherry picking opportunity to employ historical and cultural context on slavery in order to make a nuanced differentiation in support of biblical slavery while refusing to do the same for homosexuality displays the hypocrisy of which Dan Savage speaks.
Let me be more clear: your guy just made an argument for the use of cultural and historical context in order to justify injustice (slavery) then, but won’t use cultural and historical context to make the case for justice for homosexuals today.
Thanks for taking the time to look at this. You are rare. I will seriously consider your response.
Which exactly GLBT “activity” is a sin? Is parking my car while gay a sin? Is walking the dog a sin if I am gay? What about mowing the lawn on Tuesday? Showering after an afternoon workout? Working?
Or could it be that you consider my EXISTENCE as a gay man to be a sin? The mere fact that I happen to be a gay man, regardless of whether or not I am actually doing the nasty with another man, is the problem isn’t it? Admit it, you really wish that you could openly advocate for implementation of Leviticus 20:13 don’t you? You find the existence of openly non-closeted LGBT folks to be an affront to your delicate sensibilities, particularly since we have started getting so uppity lately, hmmm?
******o, don’t try to demonize the people that disagree with you by stereotyping them as homophobes, or ignorant or cruel.******
BUT……they ARE homophobes, generally ignorant of their own religion, and often emotionally if not physically cruel. That’s not stereotyping. It can be illustrated by facts and events……the fruits of their “christian” attitude toward gays.
This kind of victimized response is chilling.
You’re referring to Savage, correct?
I’m referring to you.
******This guy picks and chooses the sections of scripture that reafirms his position and throws out the rest.*******
Christians who criticize gay friendly others as “smorgasbording” the Bible?!!! How enlightening. We are indeed being advised by the experts.
And you right wingers don’t pick and choose what to follow from your holy text? Why should that privilege strictly belong to the right wing?
If you claim not to pick and choose, when was the last time a divorcee (of either sex) was executed for remarriage? When was the last time a mouthy teenager was executed for being rebellious and disrespectful to his parents? When was the last time an artist was executed for creating statues, paintings or images of whales?
See, you DO pick and choose which verses and commandments you follow to justify your position and prejudices, why should someone who doesn’t belong to the same crowd of hateful bigots NOT be allowed to do so as well?
Amen!
LOVE
Oh. My. Those poor young people, who believe they know everything, but in reality understand so very little. Hypocrisy, indeed.
Dan Savage is a gift to our culture of the magnitude of, dare I say it? Yes, of John Shore.
We would be well advised to use words like Hate and Hypocrisy more carefully. I doubt there were many hypocrites among those young walkouts. A hypocrite is someone like Newt Gingrich who clearly can’t believe anything he says but says it anyway, or the publicly anti-gay religious person or politician who sneaks around being secretly “gay” like so many of those “fallen” during the past decade.
Those walkout kids haven’t lived enuf yet to be much in the way of hypocrites…..unless, of course, some of them are secretly gay.
Nah, that wouldn’t be possible, right?
This video makes me so sad. I ache for these kids whose faith is so tenuous that they can’t tolerate anyone speaking candidly and refusing to treat religion with kid gloves when it is killing people. People who feel so threatened by any perceived affront to their faith have often had their beliefs instilled through fear and intimidation, and unless their lives change course dramatically, they will spread their beliefs using the same methods. Dan Savage said the same thing almost verbatim when I heard him speak at the University of Kentucky last month. I didn’t notice if anyone stormed off, but I applauded as loudly as anyone, because in my opinion, religious people should be the ones most appalled by the abuse of their beliefs and most determined to restore the integrity of their faith traditions.
Well said, Caroline, well said.
They were smiling so much. That is the part that makes me sad. It’s like they smiled so big it covered their eyes and their ears.
…religious people should be the ones most appalled by the abuse of their beliefs and most determined to restore the integrity of their faith traditions.”
Well said, Caroline!
Victims of bullying are instructed to simply walk away rather than become violent. That’s what they did.
No, they were afraid of someone taking on and condemning the HATE, that they are usually promoting! That is the only reason they walked out, THAT and to get attention! Pitiful at best! Walking away from reality is what breeds ignorance!
It doesn’t breed ignorance. That comes from elsewhere. But it does perpetuate it.
Similar to the type of hate you are displaying now?
How is what Keith said hateful?
“No, they were afraid of someone taking on and condemning the HATE, that they are usually promoting! That is the only reason they walked out, THAT and to get attention! Pitiful at best! Walking away from reality is what breeds ignorance!”
Seriously? Accusing a bunch of teenagers of “usually promoting hate” is not a hateful /biased comment? Keith doesn’t know these people.
Walking away breeds ignorance? That’s not what Scripture teaches. The fool looks for confrontation and disputes, sometimes it is wiser to shake off the dust and walk away. Sometimes you duke it out (like what I’m trying to do now), sometimes it is better to keep going. Why should Keith make that judgement for them?
I didn’t take his second “they” literally, but in the “ubiquitous they” : Christians who use the Bible to bully gays.
“The only reason they walked out” = because they didn’t want to hear someone condemning how the Bible is used to bully gays
“To get attention” = To draw attention to their displeasure with what he was saying. Not attention for themselves as individuals. Many see their reason for leaving as a peaceful protest. I think you or Tim here may have said that. A peaceful protest is attention seeking.
Pitiful = his opinion. But not hateful.
“Walking away from reality is what breeds ignorance!” = this is true. It does. He didn’t say walking away. He said walking away from reality. A significant difference. The reality he is referring to is how Leviticus is used to bully gays, but Leviticus is not used to bully non-virgins nor to bully shrimp-eaters. This is the hypocrisy (inconsistency) to which Savage refers.
Still don’t see hate here. Frustration. Yes. Irritation.
Your interpretation of this video that these young people were bullied into leaving a lecture at a public event is disrespectful and offensive to this gay guy who was bullied relentlessly for most of his junior high and high school years.
They were offended. Their shallow little feelings got hurt. Maybe. Or, maybe they were organized and ready to walk out of a lecture advertised in advance that featured an openly gay journalist who is known to talk straight and use profanity to make his points. I have disagreed with Dan Savage at times over the years, but today he is my hero.
So, those were the students’ only choices–walk away or become violent? Could they not have stayed and stood up for their own viewpoint if they disagreed with Mr. Savage?
No, I’m inclined to agree with John on this. This was a staged protest designed to show their disapproval of Dan Savage’s viewpoint. There was no bullying here.
There was no opportunity to speak without shouting out and being labeled “rude”. When Savage verbally attacks a bunch of teenagers, then doesn’t give them an opportunity to respond, that is a captive audience and is “bullying” in my view.
RE: “verbally attacks a bunch of teenagers”
What did he say that you classify a personal attack?
He called them a “bunch of panty wastes in the lobby”. There are other comments as well.
I’m sharing this! Thanks John.
Aspiring journalists who walk about because the speaker says something they find offensive makes me assume all of those young people want to work for Fox News. As a journalist, your job is the report the news, not agree or disagree with it. If you want to disagree with Dan, stick around to see what he has to say and then write your own OPINION article about it.
Even though tons of kids walked out during his speech (and didn’t they seem to have smug, self-righteous looks on their faces??) there were many, many more who stayed and cheered.
Yeah i liked that part.
Didn’t see it that way. The smug expressions and comments were primarily coming from Mr. Savage. What the kids did took courage and it’s how they are taught to react to bullying.
Bullshit! They were obviously ready and prepared in advance to make their silly, childish statement. Courage would have had them stay, listen and engage intelligently in any Q&A after.
The first kids started walking out as soon as he mentioned the Bible, before he’d said word one that was offensive. It was obviously a planned-in-advance ploy for attention and their claim to having been offended is, therefore dishonest and unchristian.
Also if you were a journalist and never heard anybody cuss you would only be covering stories nobody cared about. Not even the ones you were interviewing.
Don’t you realize that was a put down of anyone who watches Fox News? How would you feel if I was to say, they seem very intolerant, they probably watch MSNBC and Rachel Maddow.
Can’t we just QUIT demonizing people who disagree with our own point of view? It only entrenched the opposition. Can’t we just openly discuss opposing points of view. Maybe if we keep an open mind we can all learn someting.
Isn’t it fascinating how Christians like Treemeister can toss out a “GLBT activity is sin. Pure and simple.” and then actually turn around and complain that he’s being “demonized” when people are honest about how that kind of judgment impacts them?
I’ve never encountered a group of people who are so blinded to their impact and feel so entitled to not even listen to it.
That’s why I keep coming back, I’m genuinely trying to understand your points.
Re: “Can’t we just QUIT demonizing people who disagree with our own point of view? It only entrenched the opposition. Can’t we just openly discuss opposing points of view. Maybe if we keep an open mind we can all learn someting.”
Isn’t that what we’re asking those who walked out to do?
No, it’s what I’m attempting to do.
*****As a journalist, your job is the report the news, not agree or disagree with it.******
What you defined is a Reporter, not a Journalist. A Journalist tells a story and may include interpretations and opinions.
That’s eactly what Iv’e done, you just don’t like my point of view, so you lash out.
This is the John I love.
Thank you for bringing some reason to this crazy controversy! The Bible is great, but misuse of the Bible is indeed bullshit!
It’s is a problem and Mr. Savage demonstrated that issue in front of everyone.
Dude, I have read all your comments on here and I feel you have wandered away from your usual stomping grounds. I am slightly surprised that John as yet to block you. What those kids did was a protest of what Dan was saying not because they felt bullied. I know because I used to be one of those kids. I grew up believing as they do that my religious leaders were right and knew what God wants us to believe. I would have done the same as they did but I wouldn’t have called it bullying. Then something happened to me. I grew up and started using my brain and making my own decisions. I began to see that there were other paths out there. My advice to you: Use your brain for something other than to fill the empty void in your head and question everything. Pray for understanding and guidance, not from a religious leader that is parroting what they learned in seminary, but from God Himself. Pray he speaks to your heart. Then come back here and tell me God hates or that the government of this great nation should be denying anyone the rights that we deny the LGBT community based on poorly translated scriptures interpreted by man.
“Dude, I have read all your comments on here and I feel you have wandered away from your usual stomping grounds. I am slightly surprised that John as yet to block you”
…there you go. Your solution is to censor opposing points of view. Not what our founding fathers had in mind. I’m sorry you had a negative religious experience growing up. Hope you can heal. Don’t assume that I don’t pray either just because we can disagree on some issues.
Great!!
Fantastic!
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