As you may already know, there is just now much controversy swirling around this video of Dan Savage (Savage Love; the It Gets Better Project).
He was speaking on April 12 to attendees of the National High School Journalism Conference, sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. The four-day conference, featuring over 200 sessions, two keynote speakers (Dan and Jennifer Sizemore), more than a dozen featured speakers, and more events and activities than you can shake a pen at, was titled Journalism on the Edge.
The conference’s promo material begins with:
You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish.
And there, amongst all this journalistic edginess, was Dan Savage, being edgy.
Just who does this podium-pounding pontificator peddling in people’s perplexingly perverse predilections think he is, anyway?
I, for one, have no idea what the world has come to, when a person who has made his career out of speaking, in the most unadorned language possible, directly to great numbers of young people about some of the most important issues in their lives, dares to speak in unadorned language directly to a great number of young people about one of the most important issues in American life today.
Besides the fact that he was raised in a devoutly Catholic home and is the country’s leading gay activist, who is Dan Savage to say anything at all about the ages-old Christian condemnation of gay people? So what if his claim is manifestly valid that nothing contributes more to the destruction of the lives of gay people than do Christians falsely and hypocritically using the Bible as an instrument of brutality? So what if he believes that among the most egregious of all Christian sins is daring to proclaim that God’s love ends where their own fear and hatred begin? So what if every day, for decades on end, Dan Savage has dealt with young lives obliterated through violence informed and buttressed by the bedrock “Christian” view that gay people are less than human?
So what if any reasonably compassionate person should be expected to vigorously assert that it’s time for all Christians to reject using the Bible as a means of justifying the persecution of an entire population whose only “crime” is to prefer to spend their lives with same-sex partners?
Why should any of that matter? What matters is that Dan Savage cursed. He said bull**** not once, but three times.
Three! That’s one more than two! Which is two too many!
You know, it’s almost like the people who put on this conference, as well as a small but now (thanks, media machine!) significant number of individuals who attended it, don’t even know what the word “journalism” means.
Well, thank you, young people who walked out of Dan’s speech the moment he began talking about the parts of the Bible to which he takes exception, for reminding us of what beats so passionately in the heart and soul of every true journalist. Speaking as a person who for twelve years made his living as a journalist, I admire your dedication to the journalist’s creed: When you personally disagree with something someone is saying, get up and leave.
If that’s not what Jesus meant by, “The truth shall set you free,” I can’t imagine what he did mean.
P.S. What immediately become a meme amongst Dan’s critics is that those who walked out of his talk felt bullied by him. But that’s impossible. People get bullied because of who they are: how they look and act, what they say and do. Perceived as being in some critical way weak or lacking, victims of bullies are selected for persecution; they are pulled from the pack before being pointedly and repeatedly victimized. The people who walked out during Dan’s talk were not separated from their peers by anyone. They were content to do that themselves. They were not frightened or cowed. They were offended. They felt that by disparaging what amounts to their God, Dan had transgressed beyond their capacity for toleration. And they were pleased to show their intolerance of Dan’s words by protesting against them in the manner they did. Theirs was not an act born of suffering. It was a proud show of disdain.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
{ 586 comments… read them below or add one }
« 1 2 3 4 »
Will everyone please STOP USING THE WORD “HATE” SO CARELESSLY?!! It does not help any discussion of the gay issue to use it as injudiciously as it is currently being used.
Hate is a conscious emotional response to something. Expressions of disapproval prompted by religious ignorance are not “hate”. My evangelical type sister is the kind of “christian” we could be talking about but she is definitely not hateful and would be deeply hurt by being so labeled.
Just as such Christians need to know and seek to understand gays, so do those of us who use the word “hate” carelessly need to know and understand gay-disapproving Christians. They are very wrong in their traditional religious approach to this issue and culpable in the social response to gays, and they may indeed be fearful, but most do not HATE. To throw HATE at them merely perplexes them and causes them to be defensive, which obviously will not move the discussion in rational directions.
Great point, Soulmentor!
In between some fallacies you make a good point. There is no hating happening and saying it only continues to polarize.
Do not even TRY to find common ground with me as long as you give with one hand and take with another. And I totally disagree with your last sentence. There IS some real hate toward gays out there and it all leads back to the silent permission that is given to it by the pervasive anti-gay “christian” attitude toward gays. Christian silence in the face of anti-gay verbal violence and harassment is unforgivably culpable in that and the resultant physical anti-gay violence.
The “fear of the gay” defense attempt didn’t cut it for the boys who brutally murdered Matthew Shepard. Their actions had morphed from simple learned prejudice to sheer evil hatred.
The irony is that by now they may even be starting to like what they so feared from Matthew.
Yeah, those Christians. Eating up those gay kids? Murdering them? Shouting “faggot” at a stoplight ? Just happened today with a gs co-worker who was screamed at by a guy driving a car with a Christian fish on it). That’s all done out of love, no hate there at a. Let’s just stay focused on the other examples , right? These are just “unfortunate exceptions”. That’s the party line, right Tim?
Religion is as immutable as Race and Gender under the United States Constitution which recogizes that the right of conscience and free exercise thereof is, in fact, who a person is.
The fact that you miscreants are completley dependent upon the bastardization of the English language just ot lend an appearance of acceptability to your proclivity speaks to your complete lack of credibility. There is no such thing as a “Gay People” and you folks cannot even agree on the definitions of the words you use in defense of your depravity.
Randy, are you referring to DR and the majority of the readers here? If so, newsflash: you’re in denial. If you don’t believe there are “Gay” people, then you, my friend, have had your head in the sand for years. You can make an alternative reality in your head if you want, but don’t expect any rational person to give you credibility (to use your own words). Time to wake up and face reality. Only a truly depraved person would deny basic rights to all people, regardless their sexuality.
Y’know, it would be nice if people actually read the Bible before commenting on it…
In Exodus 19: 3-6 (KJV) we have the following:
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
This is the set-up to the Decalogue, a.k.a. The Ten Commandments.
Only they’re not commandments, they’re stipulations in a contract. God is telling Moses that if Israel — not the whole world, just the descendants of Jacob — will do the ten things God asks (or rather, refrain from doing certain things), then God will be their God and look after them. If they refuse to do those things (and they did), God would remove His protection from them (which happened).
All the laws that sprang up out of these ten maxims (or sayings or words; the Hebrew can be translated a couple of different ways) came from Moses, a man with pretty obvious deep-rooted anger issues. None of those laws apply to Gentiles (i.e., non-Israelites). They are there purely for the benefit of the children of Israel (i.e., descendants of Jacob) and have no authority or jurisdiction over Gentiles, even if those Gentiles are followers of God.
While there is much for Christians to learn from & be inspired by in the Old Testament, none of it has any moral or legal authority over us. Both Christ and Paul indicated this. Rather, we are living under a new commandment, to love one another the way Christ loved us.
…and we can’t even seem to get that right…
I totally agree with all that except Romans, Timothy, and Corinthians all warn against homosexuality. Those verses are in the new testament not the old testament.
Why would two thousand years ago when no one so far in history had condemned homosexuality would the 1st century rabbis be hey lets misinterpret what Jesus said in order to keep gays down for two thousand years. They wouldn’t have had a reason to hate gays in the 1st century no one was influencing them.
People are acting like the religious right in a fit of cruelty suddenly reinterpreted all the scriptures to block gay marriage.
The scripture are still the same it is society that has changed.
Romans warns against gossiping, too, TE; in fact calls it just as bad as homosexual prostitution (which is apparently what Paul was referring to).
Here’s the list of no-nos listed in Romans 19:
Homosexual prostitution
Filled with all unrighteousness
Fornication (sex outside of marriage, specifically straight prostitution)
Wickedness (kinda vague, but we’ll go with it)
Covetousness
Maliciousness (also kinda vague)
Full of envy (see covetousness)
Murder
Debate (hey, waidaminnit…)
Deceit
Malignity
Whisperers (i.e., gossips)
Backbiters
Haters of God
Despiteful
Proud
Boasters
Inventors of evil things (apparently the military-industrial complex is getting front row seats in Hades)
Disobedient to parents
Without understanding
Covenantbreakers
Without natural affection (i.e, unkind, tho perhaps could be referring to sociopaths)
Implacable
Unmerciful
Paul then caps this laundry list with Romans 20:1 “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
All of those things are in the bible and it shows we are all sinners and that we all need to ask forgiveness.
I don’t claim to be without sin no man or woman can.
But are we allowed to throw parts of the bible out and say that part doesn’t count? Those listed sins are less important than the ones writted by Timothy.
Dan Savage seems to say while since we all gossip we should just not count the sins around it. I am saying we should ask forgiveness for gossiping and all the sins around it.
When you start picking and choosing where do you start and where do you stop?
Both the OT and the NT say that OT Levitical laws do not apply to non-Israelites.
Period.
End. Of. Dis. Cussion.
Christ did say God created males and females and intended for marriage to be the union of one man and one woman. However, God did not specifically forbid or punish Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, or Solomon for having multiple wives / concubines.
Hence, God is not a stickler for sexual details.
Christ taught that it is better not to marry and to devote one’s life to God, but that if one felt sexual desire one should marry rather than be consumed by unrequited lust. He also said — and this is REAL important — not all people are born with “normal” sexual desires. Some are born “eunuchs” which in context means they lack any sexual desire.
Hence, if one can be born straight and if one can be born asexual, it stands to reasons that one may be born gay as well.
The NT pretty explicitly states God sees no difference between male and female, Jew and Gentile, slave and free. If God sees no difference, then we should see no difference.
Hence, either God willfully decides prior to one’s conception what one’s sexual orientation will be, in which case who are we to question His judgment if He wants a certain person to have a same sex orientation or not; or it’s such a trivial random factor that it just doesn’t matter to Him.
Classic example of “rationalizing” the behavior that you ultimately prefer.
Actually it was Paul, not Christ, who said a lot of what you’re attributing to Christ.
*****When you start picking and choosing where do you start and where do you stop?*****
Good question. Where indeed do you stop? Slavery? Women speaking in church? Stoning adulterers and recalcitrant children? Killing every living thing in a country God tells you to destroy? Eating shrimp? Wearing clergy vestments of different materials?
Where have YOU stopped, Tyrannus? You might be smart to stop using your ironically appropriate moniker.
lol its imperial gothic from warhammer 40k nothing ironic about it.
But Gothic is a Germanic language, and this is clearly Latin, with the first word from Greek “tyrannos”, from which we get the English “tyrant”, and the second related to the English word “eviscerate”, which means to remove the guts from something. The irony referring to your allegedly doing this with Bible and, like a tyrant, on the basis of your own authority.
It wasn’t meant to be humorous. You either missed my point or ignored it. Either way, your response is disingenuous.
And WHAT?! A good Christian like you familiar with violent computer war games?!!! Help us all resolve that apparent conflict.
*****The scripture are still the same it is society that has changed.******
Good Lord! You could not be more wrong. Scripture has done little BUT change over the centuries. I don’t have the time or patience to really get started on that but will make just one relatively recent example. There is a Bible version (read:translation) that has changed the King James word “effeminate” to “homosexual”. Is it really necessary to explain what’s so obviously wrong with that? And the various Bible “versions” (the Catholics even have one with a book not found in others) are replete with such changes. Indeed, the very word used to describe Bibles as “versions” or “translations” clearly indicates CHANGES!!!
How in God’s name do “bible believing” christians rationalize that reality to pontificate about “the unchanging Word of God?
When Jesus was asked if the laws of Moses no longer aplied he replied that the laws of Moses mean more now than ever; I am here to fulfill those laws. Jesus offers a path to forgiveness; not absolution.
Repent and Sin no more.
Get lost and come here no more. Bigot.
The authority on the bible and homosexuality is Robert Gagnon. If you want to know what the bible really says read his book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Homosexual-Practice-Hermeneutics/dp/0687022797
This has all been so thoroughly debunked that it’s not even worth clicking on the link.
Seemed a little to good to be true for $28.95.
Actually even his critics applaud his scriptural work. He has not been debunked in any way shape or form. His work is so strong that the other side has tried unsuccessfully to discredit him.
I challenge you to read it for yourself and formulate an intelligent response if you can.
Actually, Gagnon’s critics do not applaud his work. Human jokes like Peter LaBarbera SAY that Gagnon’s critics applaud his work. This is their feeble attempt at having a respected theologian among their ranks.
He’s been completely debunked by his detractors and his critics are not at all respectful of his work.
“The authority on the bible and homosexuality is” God.
But, granting Gagnon a measure of credibility, then whatsoever elements of the Bible upon which he must rely may be accounted, as Dan Savage would put it, bullshit. So go ahead and eviscerate the intestines in which such crap is found. You don’t actually think you need ink scribblings and parchment to let you know the truth, do you? Go ask God about it. If you’re really looking for truth, you will find it, for it fills all things. (Yes, even the bullshit, if we would not judge it by mere appearances.)
The authority on the bible and homosexuality is John Shore. If you want to know what the bible really says read his book, “Unfair: Why the ‘Christian’ View of Gays Doesn’t Work.”
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1467950424/?tag=johnshorebook-20
The word “Homosexual” was coined in 1887 in Germany by one person as a discriptive of a new construct; exclusively same gender sexual relations. The Bible says nothing of “Homosexuals” because they did not exist and do not exist today; in that there is still not universally accepted definition.
A recent – Nov 2011 – finding from the 1st Circuit noted that the plaitiffs own expert witnesses could not even agree on the definitions of the words Homosexual, Lesbian. Gay, Identity, or Orientation. These miscreants may as well call themselves Goony-Ga-Ga’s for all the good it does.
A man claims parts of the bible are wrong. Yes we are to take the words of a mere mortal a creation of God over the words of the creator of the universe.
He is so confident in his beliefs that he picks on children and outright insults them as “pansy ass”. This is truly the prophet for me(sarcasm). I do not worry for Christianity for the lord protects. I do not worry for myself for the lord gave me scripture that cuts through spiritual deception. Even on a mountain top of false prophets the rightful message of the lord rings true.
Those children weren’t leaving because they were weak they were leaving because the blasphemy was burning their ears. (I wonder is Satan’s blasphemy has the power to kill some things are better left undiscovered I suppose)
I worry for the nonbelievers. They have no scripture to cut through spiritual deception with as they have not embraced it yet.
You could be the most left wing or right wing I live in a cave, because the goverment puts flouride in my water to control my mind wierdo, but I would hope you would still have the sense as a Christian to reject the words of man who outright calls portions of the bible “bullshit.” This is utter blasphemy. May the Lord have mercy on his soul.
Yes there are parts of the bible I do not understand, but maybe that is because we aren’t meant to understand them. Maybe they are a test of faith. Maybe we just lack God’s own infinite wisdom that is necessary to understand the bible in its entirety.
God didn’t write the Bible. Men wrote the Bible in response to their experience of God. Big difference.
So your basic premise falls apart.
So your saying God allowed men to make errors when writing the bible?
So you’re another inerrantist? Prove God told those men precisely what to write. You can’t.
Yes another inerrantist you act like we have a club we go to or something.
You can’t prove God didn’t. And since those men were actually there and not Dan Savage I am inclined to trust them over him.
If we had proof of everything in the bible it would be science not faith.
Nothing in the bible has ever been proved false, and one day everything in it will be proved true just in time for the rapture.
Tyrannus, if you don’t want to engage in same sex relations just politely say, “No, but thank you for thinking of me” when offered. You don’t have to get all this worked up about it.
I understand that. That really doesn’t bother me.
I am upset that people forget that Christians were once the persecuted people. People act like Dan Savage can’t bully Christians, because they are Christians.
Apparently the Roman Empire though differently when it was slaughtering us indescriminately.
When did we become so mighty that we forgot we are still vulnerable.
One day the Anti Christ is going to be enthroned over the earth and he is gonna slaughter christians indescriminately ordering them to recant their beliefs under pain of death. We have to stand strong and push that day as far off as possible.
That Dan Savage is hailed as a her for striking at the Christian establishment means it is gonna be sooner rather than later.
Dan Savage may have saved thousands of gay teens from suicide, but the bible tells us that many who work miracles in the Lord’s name will not see heaven. Only by having faith in Christ and by asking for forgivness of our sins can we ascend to heaven.
Until Christianity aligned with Empire and for a far longer period of history we Christians did the slaughtering.
That’s where the Church continued to follow the wide way of oppression and conquest and Empire rather than the narrow, compassionate way of Jesus. Not a new religion to spread and create converts but a new way of being in the world.
Both very true
All religions have killed and those without religion are equally adept at it.
No fair then making out Christians as having some special victim status while ignoring how we became and continue to be the oppressors.
“No fair then making out Christians as having some special victim status while ignoring how we became and continue to be the oppressors.”
Exactly!
The fear of being persecuted for your beliefs is such a deeply-engrained reality that you enter into conversations like these with this default belief; if anyone says anything insulting or offensive to you – if they are honest with you about what your theology has done to them, how your behavior makes them feel – you are being “persecuted”.
What is really happening is you are being held accountable for your behavior. That’s it. You are simply over-spiritualizing this. There is no demon responsible. *You* are responsible for the impact your theology has on gay people and they are telling you honestly what that is. They are telling you – as a result of how you’ve interpreted Scripture to find them unholy – how damaging it is to them. To the children in the GLBT community. And we a Christians are telling you honestly that we’re sick to death of you thinking you represent “what God thinks” about homosexuality, that we believe you have it all wrong and we’re not going to let you get away with it anymore because we love these people, we respect them and we are committed to protecting them from you if you refuse to listen.
So wake up. Really. Wake up. You’re not being spiritually attacked, you’re not being persecuted. You’re being treated like a grown up. You are being held responsible for the impact of your right to free expression. Your speech may be protected – it should be. Your right to religious freedom is an absolute protection. It should be. But what you are *not* protected from is those who are impacted by both telling you that. You’re not protected from being offended.
The Devil does exist, but it is unfair of me to attribute every trial to him since I have no idea what he is doing or up to.
I am evidently not immune to being offended since Dan Savage offended me.
Your arguments have shaken my previous belief and that is something that has remained intact for two blogs like this before they evicted me.
Here is the question are you sure your right?
Every gay soul in the world is on the line. If the literalists are wrong it means the homosexuals commited no sin in being what they are and that failure to ask forgiveness will result in nothing since there was nothing to ask forgiveness for. 2,000 years of practice will be overturned.
If your wrong they will fail to ask forgiveness for a sin that our society will say doesn’t exist.
It is a leap of faith either way. We need to be absolutely certain we are encouraging them to jump the right way.
Believe me my friend – I was just as convicted as you were. I understand what you’re going through. It’s a true follower of Christ that is willing to lay down what he or she has understood the truth to be in light of other evidence. It’s the hardest thing to do in the world and it took me a very long time to find the courage to do it. It shook me! But in my heart, I recognized the truth of what people told me and slowly slowly, I gave up the need to be “right” and in control and I listened. It was terrifying. And I’m so glad I did.
For me, “do I know” has taken on a deeper meaning. Do I know why those verses exist? No. I don’t. I can only speculate. But what I do know without a doubt is God would never, ever allow a sin to exist without an escape hatch. I also know the fruits of sin are consistent – lying destroys relationships. Adultery destroys trust and respect. Being gay? The only fruit of being gay is falling in love and wanting to be with someone the rest of one’s life.
Thank you for being here and having the courage of entering into the dialogue.
One other thing to consider – there are thousands of actively gay men and women who also have a relationship with Jesus. Did you know that? Some of them are on this forum. They have not asked forgiveness for being gay. They are not compelled to ask for forgiveness. They certainly have other sin in their life they are condensing with but being gay is not one of them. Think about that. Are they deluded? Or are you? It can only be one.
“By their fruits, you shall know them”.
*****The Devil does exist,…..******
?? http://www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized/dp/0679731180
The concept does exist. An actual entity? Questionable at best. Read it and get back to us. Meantime, don’t pronounce certainties that aren’t.
God knows our hearts and it is our hearts that God looks at. Failing to ask forgiveness for a sin when one does not believe it is a sin is not anything for which God will condemn us. God sees us as we are and it is the fire of his love that will burn away all falsehood, leaving us with nothing but the truth, the truth which will set us free.
The thing is, it is not OUR job to decide which way someone should jump – we have the Holy Spirit, who convicts us of our sins (whatever they may be). I have *never* repented of any sin told to me by ‘man’, but have certainly felt a conviction within me, which I believe to be the Holy Spirit *gently* pointing out sin in my life. This has happened – sometimes – through hearing a sermon, but more often through private reading of Scripture or other testimony, through circumstances and/or through mulling over things in my mind and suddenly seeing connections. If I can trust God to work that way with me, I can trust Him to work that way with everyone.
The OT says that God is slow to anger, abounding in love, forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin – yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished (Exodus 34:6&7). The Good News of the NT is that Christ has taken the punishment for the sins of the world upon Himself. When we confess Him as Lord, we are immediately given His righteousness before God. He does not expect us to achieve a state of sinlessness on our own, but guides us daily to shed all that is not of Him. Whatever He wants to deal with in my life, He will do it in His time – and so it is for all of us. All that is left for *us* to do is love and serve one another (even our enemies).
“I am upset that people forget that Christians were once the persecuted people.” That was 1700 years ago — GET OVER IT!
Best not to get to comfortable we are destined to be persecuted again.
This might be the start of it this might not.
Christianity certainly isn’t enjoying a high point over this issue.
People act like we are making huge gains on this issue we aren’t. We’re losing societal approval over it. The pro gay marriage side is winning slowly but surely.
Why are we doing this unless we truly believe what we are saying.
How did you get to be so utterly obtuse?
There it is.
“Losig social approval” is not the same as being persecuted. You are losing social approval much in the way racists who did not support Cicil Rights lost social approval. Because they were on the wrong side of ethics and morality and refused to face it.
And Justice….on the wrong side of Justice.
*****Dan Savage may have saved thousands of gay teens from suicide, but the bible tells us that many who work miracles in the Lord’s name will not see heaven****
Comparing Dan’s social work with “miracles” is transparently disingenuous.
“By their fruits ye shall know them.” Matt 7:16.
You are, no doubt, familiar with that verse. You, yourself have acknowledged Dan’s fruits (no pun intended). They are there for all to see.
What are the fruits of anti-gay “christians”? Need I even answer? Tell us, Tyrannus. What are the “fruits” of your attitude toward gays?
Tyrannus, when did you choose to be straight? Was it in high school or did it happen when you were younger?
6th grade I suppose
So at that point, you had crushes on boys and girls, but you decided to have romantic inclinations for girls? Tell us more.
I can’t recall ever having a crush on a boy. Before sixth grade I didn’t have a crush on anyone though.
There was this girl in 6th grade though total crush on her the moment I saw her.
I appreciate the fact that this process is not as straightforward for everyone as it was for myself.
I’m confused. I thought that being gay was a choice. God wouldn’t create one way for some of us and another way for others. Sexuality is a choice. So please tell us when you chose being straight vs. gay, you’re not actually answering the question. Thanks.
Someone on this once described this same exact thing happening! I remember the story. 6th grade – saw a girl and then *BAM* – instant crush.
But she was a woman. Are you saying that somehow she *chose* to have that crush on a girl? Because you said for you it was straightforward, you didn’t choose gender. You just had a crush. Please explain why this is different for gay men and women and use specific citations to validate it. Thanks.
I honestly have no answer for what makes one person gay and one person straight.
God is not a God of confusion. You have created different paths for gay and straight because it fits the theology you want to cling to, period. God would simply not design something as essential as sexuality and make it a choice for some and not for others. You are perverting His creation when you make such a suggestion.
You’re right. No one can prove one way or another. But based on the history of the Bible and its final canonization, I think it’s rather naive to say without a doubt that God “wrote” the Bible. After all, it wasn’t canonized until hundreds of years after its books were written. Not even the Tanakh/Old Testament was complete at the time of Jesus. So that verse about scripture being God-breathed that inerrantists love to tout as “proof” of God’s authorization is not a reliable source.
And there was a lot of politics involved.
And I’m not saying you can’t believe the Bible is inerrant. You’re certainly free to believe that. But you don’t have the authority to say one must believe that in order to be a Christian. (I know you didn’t specifically say that, but that’s a typical stance of inerrancy doctrine.)
I don’t know what is or isn’t a typical stance of inerrancy since that term is completely new to me.
It was my understanding that everyone who claimed parts of the bible were untrue at least said that they were symbolic in nature. I have never heard of anyone sans atheists discount portions of the bible.
@Melody — there is a difference between inerrancy (meaning the Bible contains the immutable Truth) and literalism (meaning all statements and verses in the Bible are equally factual). One can be an inerrantist and still recognize certain passages are metaphorical, others are just approximations and not absolute confirmed data, and others still may be completely fictitious but used to illustrate a point (viz. Christ’s sundry parables). Inerrantists — honest ones, at least — examine their own bias to make sure they aren’t misreading interpretions into the original text.
“Yes another inerrantist you act like we have a club we go to or something.”
Well, you can call it a “church”, but whatever.
“Nothing in the bible has ever been proved false.”
Do not tempt me, Satan. I must resist the temptation to bite off more than I presently have time to chew right here. I’ll just say that the Bible proves itself false and direct you to Matthew 20:20 and Matthew 12:40 for instance, noting the mathematical inconsistency of the two (regarding the number of nights between the crucifixion and the resurrection).
“So your saying God allowed men to make errors when writing the bible?”
Yes, I am. Because quite a few of the errors are clear and obvious. You can’t get to page 2 without a few irreconcilable internal contradictions.
The Bible is a human endeavor. In many places it reflects a deep and abiding genuine experience of personal interaction with God. In other places it’s history, poetry, and repressive religious tyranny trying to keep a nomadic tribe from disappearing into its neighboring cultures.
And in some places, it is clearly hateful and hurtful. Dashing the children’s skulls against the rocks, killing all the men and raping all the women, for example. That isn’t a genuine interaction with a loving God. It is the record of a people struggling to develop the foundations for learning that “Love your neighbor” is the whole of the law.
Slavery is wrong, no matter what the Bible says. Eating shellfish or wearing pigskin leather is morally neutral, regardless of what the Bible says.
And loving, committed same sex relationships are equally as holy and beautiful and favored by God as similar opposite sex relationships, regardless of what the people who wrote the Bible said.
Remember, the Bible also says that Jesus didn’t teach us things we weren’t yet ready to know, and that the Holy Spirit would continue to teach us. That by itself “proves” that there are things the Bible isn’t the final say about.
“You can’t get to page 2 without a few irreconcilable internal contradictions.”
Actually, internally, the scripture of Genesis 1 & 2 IS reconcilable, but this requires laying aside some pretty deep-seated preconceived notions.
Dan Savage has saved hundreds of gay kids from suicide as they try to contend with the “reality” that Christians offer to them – that part of them is evil and despised by God, a part of them they cannot change or “repent” of. That they are not holy enough to be in a blessed union by God and they are destined to live lives of isolation, devoid of romantic and sexual intimacy. That is his priority and he’s done an amazing job. Gay people barely survive us Christians and he is helping that occur all on his own.
Your priority seems to be making sure that we don’t get called “pansy asses”.
I wonder what Jesus would say if He compared the two of you.
I cannot speculate on what Jesus would say, but what about the pope. He claims to be God’s representative on earth, and he is opposed to same sex marriage.
He is wrong. (and I am a Catholic).
PS. Please read this section on Papal Infallibility. There has been no formalization of homosexuality in accordance to these guidelines of what infallibility is.
“Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals.”
The pope, any pope, but especially this pope, gets stuff wrong. And this one is deeply wrong regarding a lot of things about sex, not just homosexuality.
He seems to be an expert on fancy shoes, though. I’ll defer to him on Prada slippers.
Oh, great: Now you’ve got me mentally hearing “The pope is a dope / you hope, you hope” to the tune of the Mr. Ed theme…
I wish there was a like button.
Me too!
Popes have been known to be wrong about things. They have countenanced brutal inquisitions, one kidnapped a Jewish child for conversion and ….well, God knows what else, started wars, lived with mistresses, used prostitutes, covered up sexual abuses which includes this Pope when he was a Bishop and Cardinal……. But you know all that, don’t you. Yet you suggest this Pope’s infallibility on the gay issue.
You can now remove both feet from your mouth.
You can only blaspheme God. The Bible cannot be blasphemed at all, it is a thing not a being.
It would appear I used the word blasphemy incorrectly.
With all due respect, this is an example of charging into a conversation like this on your white horse of righteousness and not even being able to explain blasphemy which is HUGE. Equate the gravity of an error like this to what you’re telling gay men and women about their salvation. You are tossing out declarative statements about their state of their *spiritual condition* as casually as you made the statement about blasphemy. You are treading into such sacred, personal ground as you do so. It actually makes me a little scared for you, to think you’d be this arrogant that you would have such disregard and disrespect for these people that God has created and loves. Who He desperately wants back, reconciled with Him. Do you understand that you are interfering in that process?
God have mercy on you. I mean it.
May god have mercy on us all.
He will. He looks favorably upon your perseverance, my friend. Your patience will pay off. If you continue to endure the arrows with which you are presently being assailed, though you might be transformed by the marks they inflict upon you, might even given a new, spiritual body, but in the end you will surely be granted the Kingdom.
I need time to think. I am leaving for awhile.
No one has the power to interfere in another’s personal connection to God. You can’t take someone else’s faith away they have to let it go.
And sometimes, they had it right all along.
Wrong. Millions of gay men and women won’t cOme. Ear a church as a result of your theology. That is indeed, your fault. God is. Of magic, He works through us. You tell gay men and women their sexuality is an abomination, why in the world would they want anything g to do with a God who finds a permanent part of them that is indelible repulsive? You have to start getting practical.
TE, It’s interesting that you have a latinish name, thought not actual Latin and yet you are unaware of so many words with Latin origins. It’s possible you need more education before speaking so authoritatively. Just a possibility there. I wish you well on your journey.
Sharon
Its a false name I picked up. It has a meaning although I am unaware of it.
Probably not a good idea.
******Yes there are parts of the bible I do not understand, but maybe that is because we aren’t meant to understand them. Maybe they are a test of faith. Maybe we just lack God’s own infinite wisdom that is necessary to understand the bible in its entirety.*******
How, HOW do you spew that blatant cop out with a str8 face? (Well, I can’t see your eyes, but I strongly suspect they would be averted when you say it.)
Are you saying you understand all the scriptures or are you saying my reasons why we can’t understand the scriptures are wrong?
I’m saying it is a cop out to fall back on “mystery” when you have no answers, while you arrogantly suggest you fully understand that which is so obviously open to interpretation.
I’m saying you are disingenuous. I’m saying you have no creds in this particular gay issue.
And I am here suggesting, in the words of Shakespeare, you “protest too much”. Are you hiding something, perhaps even from yourself?
Do some study, Tyrannus, of something besides the Bible. It is simply not true, as my evangelical brother once told me, that the Bible has all the answers. The Biblical authors had no Bible or Bible believing preachers to hand them the “truth”. Where do you imagine they got what they wrote? And do not make a god of Paul’s words about the heart and mind being deceptive. God gave you a heart and intellect and don’t you think it’s a bit of an insult to Him not to use them. How does the Spirit speak to you if not thru them? Thru the Bible, the words of other men (almost exclusively men, by the way) ? Why would they, most of whom never knew Jesus, feel the Spirit and respond to it any better than you? Because God spoke to them? Did he? Audibly? And if so, when did that stop happening? Could this current movement toward accepting gays be the Spirit of God working today? If it happens on slavery and race and women’s issues, why not homosexuality? Are you preventing God’s Spirit from speaking to you on this gay issue? Why?
Do not make a god of the Bible. Isn’t that idolatry? It’s an intellectual trap. You will not find Truth if you look only there.
You do indeed have some prayerful introspection to do. Here’s some help for it. WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY by Daniel Helmeniak. THE GOOD BOOK by Peter Gomes. IS IT A CHOICE by Eric Marcus. THE CHURCH AND THE HOMOSEXUAL by John J McNeill. CHRISTIANITY, SOCIAL TOLERANCE AND HOMOSEXUALITY and SAME SEX UNIONS IN PRE-MODERN EUROPE by John Boswell. THE ORIGIN OF SATAN by Elaine Pagels. THE BIRTH OF CHRISTIANITY by Jon Dominic Crossan. WHY CHRISTIANITY MUST CHANGE OR DIE by Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong. STRANGER AT THE GATE by Mel White. STEALING JESUS and A PLACE AT THE TABLE and BEYOND QUEER by Bruce Bawer. THOU SHALT NOT LOVE by Patrick M Chapman. I have read them all an so many more longer than twice my arm span not least John Shore’s books.
You will not lose your faith. You will find it stronger. The Truth will indeed set you free.
I wish you Love.
“Could this current movement toward accepting gays be the Spirit of God working today?”
Oh, I really do hope so!
Im thankful to both John Shore and CToBM for using their respective “podiums” to publicly counter the knee-jerk reactionary criticisms against Dan Savage. It’s encouraging to those of us without such a publicly visible venue but who share your support for Savage’s observations.
I am thankful as well this is one of the more polite blogs I have been on.
I agree with Dan Savage on this, though I’m glad he apologized for the language and the comment he thew at those kids who walked out.
The fact remains that those who claim biblical infallibility or inerrancy refuse to live by he Law. They even believe large parts of it would be immoral and unethical if practiced in our world today.Yet the principles, standards, and interpretive methods they use to justify not following portions of the Law fail them when contemplating homosexuals and homosexuality This is wrong and hypocritical. And it is time they changed.
Watched.
This actually reminded me of stuff that I’ve pulled in my fiction writing and a little personal fantasy I have regarding it… In one of my fantasy novels (something I recently re-edited for the umpteenth time), I constructed a slavery-system for the kingdom I created *based on parts of the Old Testament.* My little stupid personal fantasy is that, if this thing were to ever become published and/or I put it online and it inexplicably becomes popular – I really look forward to sharing that tidbit in interviews, while at the same time making it clear that I’m not an athiest… I’m just a *really* subversive Christian.
Actually, I remember when I first was writing this, I was still in my conservative days – but cracking. I also remember shocking the poo outta of Christian writer’s club member with a passage in one of my other (bad) novels inspired by a particularly violent Psalm. The thing that “Christians shouldn’t write! Gak!” was inspired by the Bible – go fig.
As for things said: I’m not sure I would have gone with a Sam Harris quote – I mean, he’s known as one of the Four Horsemen, so I might have chosen a similar quote from the Progressive Christian front, just to have a lambaste of “Biblical morals” from someone “in the club,” but if a more apt quote couldn’t be found… Savage pretty much wins this because I agree with him (see above “really subversive Christian who likes to play with Biblical dubiousness in fiction to make heads spin”). He had a lot finesse – I didn’t see him as attacking Christians or calling for the tearing down of religion, he was just pointing out how much we ignore out of a scared book when it comes to social policy and everyday life because it was written in a different time and place.
One of my friends was an Orthodox Jew for part of her life… let’s just say, from talking with her and hanging out with her… It’s *hard* to follow all the rules in the modern world.
There is much discussion of the appropriateness of Dan’s language before an audience of young people. It is suggested he had no business using language that offended or upset them. Oh please!!!!! As if young people aren’t way ahead of us in that game. If you’ve ever paid attention to the conversations of many young people today, you will know that they talk much worse than that. With their favorite and inappropriately overused adjective and expletive being the F word, it’s simply not possible to shock them anymore.
Those kids who walked out may have felt offended but they weren’t shocked. They had to know who Dan was before they attended his talk and it’s no stretch to suspect that they expected to be offended and actually planned the walk out in advance. So one was crying?! No sympathy here. That’s a mere silly response compared to the rivers of tears of gay kids and it’s utterly dismissable in a time of gay kids’ suicides. Surely I’m not the only one who noted the self-righteously smug smiles of many of those “good christian” kids as they walked out. They didn’t know it but, with their actions, they were saying more about themselves than about Dan.
The anti-gay ignorantly religious self-righteous “christians” have controlled the social dialogue for centuries and they aren’t accustomed to being challenged and don’t know how to respond to it with intelligent, rational argument………BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE ONE.
THAT is why that one walkout was crying. THAT is why they walked out. THAT is why we have this ad hominem uproar from them.
In this particular social/religious discussion, their emperor has no clothes.
I’ll add that the majority of kids stayed, and many applauded enthusiastically. People are acting as though the whole group stampeded out of the auditorium.
If this were HuffPo, I’d fan and fave you, Soulmentor.
Thank you. You will see me there too. I really to spend too much time between John and Huff Po. In fact, it was HP where I first saw John.
I used to be a teacher at ACA (Arrowhead Christian Academy). That is the school that these students attend. To make a long story very short, after 8 years in employment, I was wrongfully terminated from my position. What was done to me and my family was disgraceful, wrong, immoral, and unethical. The manner in which I was treated was the farthest thing from what Christ exemplified in His life. I think the students are confused. Yes, they were offended by Savage’s remarks, but that is not bullying or persecution. I know there were other speakers that should have been equally offensive, but I doubt if these students walked out of those presentations. Also, isn’t good journalism supposed to incite a response? I think that is what Savage did. He incited a response by his remarks. I hope the students’ response did not end with just walking out, but I believe sadly it probably did.
My take on this is that the students who left had every intention of leaving during Mr. Savage’s talk, regardless of what he said, because of who he is. Christian schools or Christian youth groups – they knew he’d “go there,” because that’s who he is and what he does. They took it as an opportunity to make a statement and try to make him look like the bad guy – that is evident from their self-satisfied grins. They weren’t horrified or upset, they were grinning as if in victory. And the “we got bullied” meme was planned right along with it – give the mean ol’ liberal gay guy a taste of his own medicine!
All they did was look like wimps who will never be actual journalists – how, exactly, could they? Only cover stories that make them feel warm and fuzzy inside? Not how it works, kiddos. Y’all can strive to be the Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks of your generation, sure – but that, my little friends, sure ain’t journalism.
I’m tired of any sort of attempt to argue with them being called intolerant simply because someone chooses to argue using words or methods they don’t approve of or that make them uncomfortable.
Never been much of a Dan Savage fan (I have little patience for “shock” jocks of any medium unless they’re comedians) but this is ridiculous! I am so tired of conservatives crying out for tolerance of their beliefs and saying they are victims. It’s sickening. Even if I don’t always agree with how Dan expresses his ideas, they’re usually valid, and in this case were spot on. Great writing, as always, John.
I should say I’ve never been much of a fan of reading his column. The work he does is phenomenal.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/04/29/on-bullshit-and-pansy-assed
A statement by Dan Savage on such things.
Dan Savage wouldn’t know the truth if he were swimming in it. Every time he opens his mouth more ignorance spews out. How sad!
What specifically about what he said did you find to be lacking knowledge or awareness in general, uneducated? Perhaps you are right that you found his comments to be discourteous or rude, possibly unsophisticated even. But what about his comments were untrue?
His ignorance of the bible is painfully apparent.
And I was not offended at all. Why would a charlatan who doesn’t know what he is talking about be offensive? It’s just sad. His inappropriateness only further elevates his ignorance.
So you are choosing not to answer my very specific question?
His ignorance of Levitical law and their meanings. His dismissal of NT text.
It’s not surprising he is ignorant on these issues as he has also shown his ignoarnce on sexuality in general.
Given Tim’s knowledge on the subject, I’m sure he’s well aware of the epidemic rates of suicide in the GLBT community between the ages of 13-22. Tim, would you please comment on what you and other Christians are doing to mitigate this unintended impact you’ve having on gay kids? No one else besides you is telling them that an indelible part of who they are – a part they cannot change – is sinful and in case they find a way of changing these desires, they’ll go to hell. You’re sending that message (even though you might be trying to say something else) so you’re responsible for the impact. I’m sure the love you have for gay kids – the concern you have for them – is driving you to ensuring they understand *exactly* what you mean. I’m sure you’ve organized around that priority.
Tell us about it.
Well it’s quite selfish to coop the truth that kids are bullied and some of them are gay and some of them make the tragic choice to take their own life, in order to promote an agenda.
These kids are very confused and not emotionally mature enough to make wise decisions, either about themselves or their choices. If we love kids we will always tell them the truth in love. Lying to someone is hating them.
The answer is to make sure that they know they are loved no matter what choice they make but to suggest fallacious arguments that the are simply born a certain and cannot change is a lie.
And if you beleive in the bible and respect the text, there is absolutely no credible way to come to an conclusion that homosexual behavior is not sinful. We do not have to beat people up with this fact but denying it is not only dishonest but harmful.
The people, who are saying that these kids cannot change how they feel are the ones who are confusing them and contributing to their tragic choices.
“And if you beleive in the bible and respect the text, there is absolutely no credible way to come to an conclusion that homosexual behavior is not sinful.”
For love is of God, and ANYONE who loves is born of God and knows God.
In Christ,….there is neither male nor female…”
But, even if you do believe that homosexual sex is a sexual sin, you don’t have to go any further than the story of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery to see what your duty to gay people is. Put down your rock and go home.
Had a lot of experience choosing not to be gay, Tim?
No but I have a lot of experience in making choices about my sexual behavior. I fail probably more often than I succeed but I do not accept my sexual sin as something that God is ok with.
So your stated fact of ‘it is a choice’ is based on what, exactly? Not experience. Not scientific evidence (since there is none). So where does it come from?
Being gay has nothing to do with you choosing to not look at porn, Tim. When did you choose to be attracted to females? Be specific. God would not create a path where some choose their sexuality while others like you just discover it.
*****And if you beleive in the bible and respect the text, there is absolutely no credible way to come to an conclusion that homosexual behavior is not sinful.******
“In the case of the Bible and homosexuality in contemporary American culture, the tragic dimensions of this biblically sanctioned prejudice among the most devout and sincere people of religious conviction are all the greater because NO CREDIBLE CASE AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY OR HOMOSEXUALS CAN BE MADE FROM THE BIBLE UNLESS ONE CHOOSES TO READ SCRIPTURE IN A WAY THAT SIMPLY SUSTAINS THE EXISTING PREJUDICE AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY AND HOMOSEXUALS. (emphasis mine) The combination of ignorance and prejudice under the guise of morality makes the religious community, and the abuse of scripture in this regard, itself is morally culpable.” Peter Gomes, now deceased, Minister in the Memorial Church and Plummer Professor of Christian Morals at Harvard University, in his book, THE GOOD BOOK. http://www.amazon.com/The-Good-Book-Reading-Bible/dp/0380723239
Also, WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY by Daniel Helmeniak, former priest. http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X
See, it isn’t just John Shore that you might choose to easily dismiss because he has no formal creds on this issue. Read these books, both of them, then get back to us. And stifle your ignorant comments until you do. You now have no excuse.
Look, as a straight woman I am absolutely 100% sure I could not choose to be gay. When I was a teenager my best friend came out to me as a lesbian and told me she was in love with me, and if I could have turned gay for her, it would have been great. Not gonna happen, because I am not gay.
I assume you’re not gay. (Perhaps wrongly, as a lot of people with your beliefs are closeted.) What would it take to turn you gay? Could you decide, right now, to be gay?
“And if you beleive in the bible and respect the text, there is absolutely no credible way to come to an conclusion that homosexual behavior is not sinful.” And you know what the Bible says is even worse than that? Judging people on it ‘cuz we have done far worse things & are far more deserving of judgment.
Look it up if you don’t believe me. Romans 20:1 “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
I am not judging anyone. I am simply pointing out what the bible says and pointing out the fallaciy of Dans and others false interpretations. God is the judge.
“God is the judge.” You just like to help God out with his job, right?
What in the world are you talking about? Who is using gay kids dying as “an agenda”? Dan Savage and the Trevor Project *volunteered* to create the system of *volunteer* support where gay kids receive assistance and support. What a perverse suggestion that anyone cares enough about you, frankly, to develop some kind of an “agenda”. These people want to save these kids. All Dan Savage wants to do is never have to deal with you again, he never wants to have to deal with your interpretation of his sexuality again. That’s all he or anyone else who is gay wants. They want to stop being harassed, shamed and oppressed by you. You need to check your ego a bit dear. This isn’t about you.
And lastly regarding “change”. I find it so interesting that those of you so invested in this belief system have yet to show any kind of substantial data that you can change. All of the stories about repenting from the gay lifestyle and then suddenly being attracted to the opposite sex are so far and flung out, none of you can ever present any compelling data. It just doesn’t exist.
But here’s what does exist. I volunteered at a teen homeless shelter out of a church years ago. Every week, dozens of kids from Christian homes would show up. Gay and kicked out for not “changing”. I remember holding one little boy – he was 13 years old – he was shaking and sobbing and begging me to pray with him so God would change him so he could go home. That for months he’d been asking God to please, please change him and so far God hadn’t. So maybe God would listen to me because after all I was better than him. I was straight.
So how about you actually go hang out in that shelter. I’ll give you the contact information off line. Better yet, I’ll give you the contact of a shelter in your own area. I dare you to spend a Saturday a month there listening to all of the Christian kids who ran away or were booted out for the same reasons. Let’s see if the Holy Spirit changes them straight after you’ve spent some time with them. If it happens all the time, then let’s see you put your money where your virtual mouth is.
*****You need to check your ego a bit dear. This isn’t about you.*****
Maybe it is?
I have so much respect for you…………
“If we love kids we will always tell them the truth in love. Lying to someone is hating them.”
While it is true that truth and love are inalienably interlinked, it does not follow that lying is necessarily linked to hating. Have you considered that lying is often done rather in indifference, with an eye towards convenience?
“And if you beleive in the bible and respect the text, there is absolutely no credible way to come to an conclusion that homosexual behavior is not sinful.”
Um, ok. Could you please provide your credentials in Biblical scholarship to back up your claim? I ask because Soulmentor has cited a source that, to me, does indeed seem at least *credible*, that claims almost exactly the opposite. Or perhaps you are simply mistaken, having misread somewhere (or someone mistyped) “against” as “for” or something? or are making claims with no real basis but your preference for a certain understanding of the text? Well that, my friend, *is* indeed a preference that can be changed—thousands, if not millions, of people have successfully accomplished that one and with no evidence of any lasting psychological damage associated with attempting to do so!
“We do not have to beat people up with this fact but denying it is not only dishonest but harmful.”
Apart from the fact that I disagree with this “fact” (and it seems somewhat dishonest to suggest that I cannot do so in all honesty, but I’m willing to just chalk that up to ignorance), perhaps it’s also important to address in what way you might think it is harmful. Do you mean it leads them to hell? I submit that precisely opposite is manifestly the case: that denying them legitimacy in who they are, and in whom they love, and in providing fuel to those who would put them down (to put it mildly) or even disown them—that this is what leads to the true state of hell. But glory to God, for Christ holds the keys to Death and Hades and is coming to set free the spirits imprisoned there!
“The people, who are saying that these kids cannot change how they feel are the ones who are confusing them and contributing to their tragic choices.”
This appears to indicate a certain willful ignorance of the consequences of your own declared opinions on the lives of others.
Think of it this way: There’s no way to be confused if there aren’t at least two different options. If what they feel is defined clearly enough (which it would have to be before it could be willfully changed, if that would be possible), then this is singular and the only confusion that could arise must come from the imposition of an external reason or reasons that argue against the feelings. Is it my opinion or yours that opposes what they might feel about themselves then? If what they feel is telling them their straight, I’m not disagreeing, and neither are you. If what they feel is telling them they are intrinsically gay, I’m also not telling them otherwise, but you are. (Also, if they feel they could go either way, I also do not disagree. Or if their feelings are somehow more complex than this—no arguments here.)
Now, it is true that we must all take into account restrictions placed upon us by forces outside of ourselves / greater than ourselves, in determining how we’re to *act*, but it is quite psychologically destabilized when “opinions”—which in this case transmogrify into demons—seek to hijack our very, inner *feelings*. What we (willfully) do is the result of a conscious process, but what we will feel is rooted deep in our subconscious where it is best for others not to mess around unless they’re a true, licensed professional and with a patient’s willing consent to do so. (This is not to say that there’s anything wrong in general with acts, either, simply in result of the gender identities or sexual assignments of the parties involved.)
If these scriptures were always unclear why is this only coming to light now when a political and moral issue is at stake?
Shouldn’t this have come up earlier?
Why? Why didn’t slavery and race and misogyny come up til later? For that matter, why didn’t Jesus arrive on earth earlier than he did?
I suspect you would agree that God’s timing is inerrant. So maybe now it the right time in human history. As simple as that.
Human equality and Justice didn’t come up in human history as early as we would have liked. That’s a much more modern incarnation. Jesus’ teachings though are timeless and not dependent on cultural norms: Love God, love your neighbor. “Do this,” Jesus said “and you shall live.” “On this,” Rabbi Hillel of the first century said, “hangs the whole of the Torah. Go and learn.”
It’s een here forever it’s just education and awareness doing their job that we are dealing with it. The I teensy has also helped. No more majority contr of the media which is why Christians enjoyed for decades.
Shoot. The whole notion of marrying for love is a modern incarnation. It seems to me a logical progression from where we came from with arranged marriages all about the merger of families and the acquisition of property to the modern ideal of the autonomy of the individual to pursue true love for love’s sake…that marriage equality is inevitably and necessarily where we are headed – not simply as Americans but as humans.
To answer your questions, Tyrannus, no one ever interpreted them as saying anything regarding what is today known as being lesbian, gay, or bisexual before there was such a social construct as sexual orientation. This was impossible, and reading such notions into the Scriptures today is an error of anachronism.
As soon as people started seeing things this way is when the political and moral issues sprang up.
And as soon as people started seeing it this way, challenges to this reading of the scriptures came up.
@Christy
“On this,” Rabbi Hillel of the first century said, “hangs the whole of the Torah. Go and learn.”
Rabbi Hillel was such a closet Christian: Look at him declaring the preeminence of the cross!
Actually, Jesus was a Jew. He was a contemporary of Hillel and there is speculation Jesus studied with him. The question being, whose teaching informed who? And since it centers on the Golden Rule we know that moral concept predates both of them to Buddhism and Taoism. So, it might be more historically accurate to say, “Look at Jesus affirming the essence of Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism, Sihkism, the Upanishads …..look at how the most important thing he had to say is similar in all of them.
I’m aware, Christy. (Although, the golden rule, as expressed in the Far East, is traditionally formulated proscriptively, as I understand it, telling us not to do to others as we would not have them doing to us, whereas the revealed traditions of the Middle East are telling us to get our butts up and actively *do* something.)
But you have not understood what I’m saying.
The Torah—Hebrew for the Law, found in the Word, of God—whose fulfillment *is* the true Word of God—hangs (also translates “hinges” in the Bible) on these two: first, a pillar oriented vertically, and second, horizontally.
I suspect Dan knows the Bible better than you do and I’m guessing you would refuse to face him mano a mano in a discussion of the traditional Biblical history and interpretations in regard to this subject.
Dan would take you on in any public forum you chose, but would YOU take HIM on like that, instead of here where you know he won’t respond because you know he won’t see it and it’s “safe” for you? But we’re all here with a collective Biblical knowledge that obviously surpasses yours, so maybe not so “safe” after all, eh?
Please an educated child could run circles around Dnas “wisdom.” It would even be a fair contest.
You, apparently, can’t. Perhaps you could dig up an educated child to come and give some of the specifics that seem to be eluding you.
I’d avoid the ones who walk out on any discussion that doesn’t fit their preconceived worldviews, though. Not all running in circles accomplishes anything meaningful.
I have no rock. I am not here to condemn anyone except those who misrepresent Gods word.
Yes people should put down their stones and also go and sin no more. Just like Jesus said.
You’re the one misrepresenting God’s word, you filthy hypocrite.
“Yes people should put down their stones and also go and sin no more. Just like Jesus said”
Except that John 7:53-8:11 is almost certainly a later interpolation seeing as it doesn’t appear in any New Testament manuscript before the late fourth or early fifth century. Oops. What was that you were saying about your biblical expertise?
Of course he is making that choice. He doesn’t have a rational different one and he knows it. The religiously anti-gay are at last getting talked back to with educated and intelligent responses to their ignorant prejudice and simply don’t have answers to the challenges. Thus, they can only respond with ad hominem attacks and louder shouts of the tired and erroneously interpreted Biblical quotes and references from the bunkers of their ignorantly unexamined “faith”.
It’s not FAITH. It’s FEAR. The dying gasp of a religious attitude that no longer works and can’t stand up to honest intellectual scrutiny.
You mean kind comments like … “You’re the one misrepresenting God’s word, you filthy hypocrite.” brought to you by Melody.
Give it a rest, Tree.
Christy, he references the book of Philemon, the shortest book in the Bible. It is not a letter telling a slave owner how to own slaves, it is a plea written by Paul on behalf of a runaway slave asking that the slave be set free (asserting that the slave is no longer less than but equal to the master because they are both Christians and our now brothers). Savage’s remarks in this specific instance (and in many others) were clearly ignorant.
That is not true. Paul is not asking that onesimus be freed, but that he should not be punished for running away and be treated nicely as a FAVOR TO PAUL!!!!!!!
A HUGE difference.
Thanks.This Daniel is right.
Daniel Francis is right – and even politely asking or encouraging a slave owner to free the slave because he is a Christian is recognizing the rights of the owner to make that choice – and compounding it by sending the escaped slave home to face that judgement rather than keeping him safe. And regardless, it’s all about the one slave – not a peep out of Paul about the lave owner freeing all his other property, nor any sweeping statements about the evil of slavery. Even if you see it as a statement that Christians shouldn’t own other Christians, it still doesn’t address slavery in general.
It’s all about how nice this particular slave is and how great it would be to set him free.
Dan Savage got it right. It’s about how to own slaves, not whether or not to do so.
Tim,
I don’t think any of us really care what your opinion is of Dan (including him). What’s demonstrative of the character in all of us are the fruits of our lives.
Dan Savage’s work has saved hundreds of gay kids a year from committing suicide as a result of the theology they hear Christians express regarding the evils of their sexuality. That’s well documented from both conservatives and liberals, his involvement with the Trevor Project and It Gets Better campaign is known as one of the most powerful support groups for gay kids everywhere.
Would you let us know about the specific organizations that Christians sponsor to provide this kind of support to gay kids? Gay kids are the #1 at-risk group of teens to commit suicide so I’m sure this is a priority for Evangelical Christians, I’ve just not heard about it. I’m sure you can educate us on who they are. Looking forward to that information. Thanks.
They should come to the church that does not lie to them.
So your way of helping them NOT commit suicide is to bring them to a church that tells them they are an abomination and destined for hell?
DR, I think we can safely assume that means Tim and his fellow conservatives don’t actually HAVE a plan for helping these children of God.
While there are some churches who say those things many do not. There is a false dichotomy that either a church is affirming or condemning. The majority of churches are somewhere in between. Kids deserve the truth . God did not create anyone gay, sin has distorted all sexuality. All of us suffer from sexual sins but God can transform.
Prove God didn’t make anyone gay, without using the Bible. Do you presume to know God’s mind? You obviously know nothing about the great spectrum that is sexuality, and that God doesn’t make everyone the same. Get some education before you make such obtuse statements.
He (and millions of others) won’t do that. Education is the bane of “faith” and they fear it.
Actually I am quite familiar with the broad spectrum of sexuality that sin has created.
God made them male and female and said be fruitful and multiply.
I am just waiting for someone to introduce the infertile couple strawman. Who will it be?
I love how this is being characterized as a straw man!
Tim, when did you choose to be straight? Was it as a teenager or did it happen at a younger age? I think your personal testimony on when you chose to be straight vs gay would be enlightening.
I call shenanigans.
It has been proven, time and time again, that homosexual tendencies are NOT a choice, they are ingrained in our genetics — in other words, GOD MADE US GAY. Or straight. Or bi. At that point, what happens between two consenting adults is not only of no business of yours, it is of no business of yours to say it is a sin.
Likewise, it has been proven, time and time again, that ‘conversion therapy’ and ‘conversion ministry,’ to ‘turn’ homosexuals into heterosexuals, does not work. It just pushes deeper into the closet, people who have been indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is wrong. Do you notice the effect here? You are telling people to bury themselves, you are telling them they should be ashamed and telling them to get a deeper closet. And that, mon frere, just leads to humiliation, pain, alienation, and for a tragic number of cases, suicide.
So unless you are going to go Calvinist and say that people who were made by God to be homosexual are the prime example of predestination trumping faith and works, what do you plan on saying about the people who are born, live, and die homosexual? If you are not okay with gay kids being bullied, mocked, alienated, and cast out of their families, then what are you going to tell them? Here’s a hint: Further alienation is contraindicated.
Actually science says differently. No gay gene. Sexuality is more fluid than we think. People do change.
What I am telling people is to trust Gods design, pick up your cross and carry it. That what we are called to do.
Wrong again.
Science has nothing whatsoever like proving that there is no gay gene, much less that homosexuality isn’t genetic, much less that homosexuality isn’t biologically based.
On the contrary, the only definitive scientific evidence so far shows that since identical twins are far more likely to share a sexual orientation than fraternal twins or other siblings, that there is definite and provable indications that something other than choice is in play in at least some situations.
What you are misquoting or misinterpreting is that there has been no proof of a single gene that in all cases indicated a homosexual orientation. While even that doesn’t prove that such a single gene won’t be found in the future, it’s just as likely to be an indication that not all gay people are gay for exactly the same genetic reasons. Just, for example, looking at big, muscular burly hairy leathermen and small, delicate, feminine artsy types, it’s not hard to believe that some different mechanism is in play in different gay men.
And, not all biologically determined factors are purely genetic. Identical twins don’t share fingerprints, but nobody is going to claim our fingerprints are a choice.
Some people change sometimes, in some ways. That’s no justification for forcing change on everyone else. Some Christians convert to Islam, and that is clearly and purely a choice. Do we justify outlawing Christianity because of it.
Fail.
Please note your specific citations.
I do trust God’s design.
I’m gay.
I do pick up my cross and carry it. And, all too often in my life, one of my biggest crosses has, in all seriousness, been dealing with people like you telling me who I am and am not allowed to be, and what the God I speak to every day “really” thinks about me.
It would be far, far, easier to carry my cross if people like you were not so committed to building additions onto it for your own purposes.
See also, sheep and goats, and what gets people condemned.
What about the “straight” gene? I’m pretty sure that doesn’t exist either.
Over 82% of the Evangelical churches that exist in America do not allow gay men and lesbian women to be in any kind of leadership role because of their belief that you cannot be actively gay and Christian at the same time. So you want these people to go find 8% of the churches? Really??
Well they have gone to churches that have told them they are an abomination for parts of them that truly, cannot change. Like telling someone with blonde hair they are going to hell for having blonde hair. Is your expectation that they – you know – keep going to that place? What is it that you expect them to do? They’re being told they are not holy and that they have to change to become holy or they will be condemned. Do you understand that? I’m not sure you have the capacity to understand but it’s worth trying to educate you a little.
*Gets out a big bag of Troll Chow – Now! With Flavor!*
I have a story. It’s not about gay kids, but it is about other young “sexual sinners” and a church.
When I was a teenager living in the middle of nowhere in the desert, I went to a cute little conservative Southern Baptist church. Now, these folks, if I were still in contact with them, just like Past!Shadsie would likely be appalled that Today!Shadsie signed the petition that was posted on this blog earlier this week. This church was pretty big into purity and conservative values and just a little bit into the fear of Hell. I couldn’t join them again, but when I was with them, they were genuinely good people. (They are why I will defend the basic Humanity of conservatives when people say they are not human online). These people may have been ignorant of some things, but they had good hearts.
Folks showed up for services in T-shirts and jeans. Kids played Gameboys during the sermons and the adults let them. I’d listen to the sermon and draw. We were interracial (make up of white and hispanic and some mixed-marriages). The adult Sunday School teacher was a Theistic Evolutionist. During one of our pot lucks we had doves that one of our scruffy hunter-guys shot that morning (tastes like dark meat turkey, very good). All in all, a conservative-valued but crazy, fun-loving group of people.
My very best childhood friend and her family were split between our church and their Catholic church. They identified as Catholic but sometimes liked to come to the local church. (Hey! We were somewhat interreligious that way, too)!
Then there was a time when my best childhood friend stopped coming to my church. She withdrew from me and from everyone. I knew she was avoiding me, but I kind of accepted it sadly because, well.. I’ve always been a weird person (I didn’t find out that the reason for my awkwardness and general social-stink was bipolar disorder until I was 26 ). I was used to friends, cousins, people I loved to hang out with as a kid “growing out of me,” especially if anyone gained any kind of popularity, new friends, or, like in the case of this friend – a boyfriend. My introverted self was used to having cats as close friends, anyway…
I came back from a Christian youth retreat I’d been on (sponsored by the crazy Fundamentalist pastor we had at the time). My friend called me up and asked to come over and I was suprised – why would she want to see me after we hadn’t talked in so long? She confessed to me that she’d had a baby – premature, and that she’d hid the pregnancy from everyone because “It’s a pretty big sin.”
She was afraid that I would disown her. That’s why she’d effectively disowned me. She was so scared that since I was “into” my church that I, and everyone in the church would just condemn her for getting pregnant without a ring on her finger.
I was hurt… but immediately hugged her becuase I understood. It was like “what went wrong with our church that she would think a thought like that?” Her first assuption was a panic – “Oh noes, they’ll disown me for being a sinner.” After all those years of being her friend, even before I had my “conversion experience’ — What did *I* do, what did *we* do to give her so much fear?
I wish I could say this had a happy ending, but it didn’t. While our church loved her, my friend didn’t get to be a mommy then because the child didn’t make it.
I know this was a ramble, but… I think my point is… when the church is “too much into the rules” or perecieved to be “really into this or that rule” and “judgemental” – even if the inviduals in it *are* genuinely good people the perception itself, often cultivated by the Church, itself, creates a monster to fear. And that’s when hurt happens.
So, to repeat Christy, what do you disagree with Dan on?
Are you in favor of slavery? Of avoiding menstruating women until their ritual public cleansing? Are pork and shellfish abominations? Should be be stoning harlots over at their parent’s house?
Or are you denying that people who defended slavery used the Bible to justify that? That people who oppressed the Jews used the Bible to defend their actions?
Dan’s point was that people who are quick to use the Bible against others and refuse to defend their position (for example, you) still feel perfectly free to violate other parts of the Bible with a clear conscience when they find it convenient. Is that what you’re denying?
You might want to reevaluate just what it is you are swimming in. It might be great for your lawn, but it isn’t doing you much good otherwise.
Even too much of that will burn the grass!!!!!!
Lymis, the standard fundie response to your questions is that those were OT ritual prohibitions, but the NT moral prohibitions remain in place. I’m sure you already know that. But I find it confuses the issue to bring in OT prohibitions when discussing homosexuality, which fundies believe is clearly outlawed in the NT.
However, it’s rare to find a fundie who is aware of the three things prohibited in the NT when the church was deciding which of the prohibitions to apply to Gentiles. They were eating meat sacrificed to idols, fornication, and eating meat not slaughtered in the kosher manner by having the blood drained from it. I’m not aware of any modern Christian church which observes those prohibitions.
The point is that the justification for ignoring the OT food and other ritual prohibitions lies in some of the things said in the New Testament. But very similar things are said that clearly indicate a similar change in viewing how sex and relationships work.
That anyone who loves is of God. That the faith of a Roman Centurion allowed the healing of his male sexual bodyslave. That people aren’t supposed to stone sexual sinners to death. For that matter, even the very same verse that “justifies” eating pork and shellfish applies – what makes a person impure is not what enters their body from outside, but what comes from within. If that justifies eating food that was an abomination, it’s ridiculous to claim that it can’t apply to other kinds of activities – these people are still claiming that motivations, including love, don’t matter, it is the physical act of penetration that makes homosexuality evil.
It isn’t that the New Testament doesn’t contain just as many, and just as clear, verses that can be the basis of a new understanding of love and relationship, including same-sex pairings and even marriage (If in Christ there is no distinction between male and female, how can there be in Christianity?).
No, it’s that these sorts of Christians come into the scripture with their own prejudices already firmly in place, and only see what they are willing to see, and in the process, they condemn their brothers and sisters, and do constant and serious deliberate harm to their neighbors. See the story about the sheep and the goats to see how that turns out.
This is EXACTLY what Dan Savage was saying. It isn’t that the Bible condemns gay people or gay relationships. It is that there is no stick too small or too awkward to be used to beat gay people with, when someone truly sets their mind to it.
“these people are still claiming that motivations, including love, don’t matter, it is the physical act of penetration that makes homosexuality evil”
And yet, even though most of them will claim that it is, indeed, the penetrative act that is problematic (ignoring the context of idolatrous prostitution, coercion, etc) – to the best of my knowledge, the Bible neither mandates vaginal-only penetration nor prohibits any other kind of penetration within monogamous heterosexual marriage (being their glorified ‘ideal’). So, what is their Biblical basis for insisting that homosexual acts are inherently sinful? And if the acts themselves are not inherently sinful, how do they justify ignoring that “what comes out of a person’s heart is what defiles”? They are blind to the truth that “man looks at the outside, but God looks at the heart”.
John, thank you for the millionenth time!!! You and Dan Savage help me hold on to that tiny thread of hope…
Screw accomodationist “nice talk.”
And, just as a matter of “it drives me mad,” WHY is this being reported as “profanity?” He didn’t say “G-d damn” ONCE. And scatalogical references are NOT profane, since no sacred boundary is being crossed.
The kneeslapper is that the Bible has lots of scatlogical references in it, just either cleaned up in translation or made less shocking by overfamiliarity (such as “dung” which was pretty offensive in King Jimmy’s day…).
I wondered about that, too. Thanks for saying it in the exact words to explain the difference.
You just know those kids say “bull****” on their own when no adults are around, so I have no issue with Savage’s delivery. I rather enjoy his talks and find him refreshingly insightful.
Great post, John. Although I am no longer a fundy believer and toe the line between agnosticism and atheism, I love your blog.
Well said John & thank you for all you do. This post has been linked at Joemygod, one of the largest gay political blogs. I read over there almost daily. I almost sent Joe a link a while back to this blog as many of his readers as well as Dan Savage have called on Christians who disagree with the mainline evangelical message to speak to it publicly. I am gay and a follower of Christ. I no longer call myself a Christian because of the political implications at this point. But that doesn’t change my beliefs or connection with God which was always a quiet and private relationship for me.
I really do love the work Dan does; he is funny and off the cuff. I don’t think he ever intentionally signed up to be an official spokesperson for the Gay Cause. To the degree he has become a political figure he makes some mistakes that someone well versed in political beltway damage control would not. I think of West Wing and putting Josh in front of the press as opposed to CJ Craig and you get my meaning. But Dan is honest and I’ve seen him apologize for his mistakes.
I love Dan’s speech. Very tame to me, My wife and I live in the mountains of Western NC fighting for our gay lives over a bigoted amendment to the state constitution which will be voted on by the people next week ( May 8th primary). Guess what? We might
actually defeat this thing because people are so outraged by the bigotry..but the reason it may be defeated is because there have been countless groups and hours spent working on this. If the kids in the audience didn’t preplan this I’d be surprised because the divisiveness and animosity here over the amendment is loud. But, the support from everywhere is overwhelming..
I sincerely hope we win this. Many people over at Joemygod are donating. Dan has given a donation towards defeating this measure.
As a former Catholic and proud mother of a gay son, I often feel that Christianity has no place for me. Posts like this one force me to keep that door open, at least a little. Thank you.
Kathleen, As a Presbyterian and the proud mother of a gay daughter, I hope you find a congregation that will be a family for you. My church has been a source of strength as we’ve gone through this season of discovery. When my daughter’s partner was attacked, it was church friends who were the most loving and supporting.
There are some wonderful congregations out there, I can’t promise you will never be hurt but that’s never possible.
Peace,
Sharon, a sister in motherhood.
I completely agree with Mark. The students were cowards. If their religious beliefs are so fragile that they simply refuse to listen to any differing opinions, then perhaps their beliefs aren’t as strong as they think they are.
It was clear from the beginning of the video that the walk-out was preplanned. A girl got up to leave before Dan even started talking about the Bible. You really have to hand it the kids’ parents. They did a terrific job indoctrinating them… to the point that they’re completely brainwashed.
Priceless as Dan Savage and those who beleive what he says continue their self destruction. Thanks Dan Savage! You are the best thing that’s happened for those that actually beleive what the bible says. Keep up the old work.
Your comment is as flatly stupid as your bible, fool.
Ok. But the future will prove me correct whether you like it or not.
How will speaking truth to power, holding Christianity accountable,, and following the teachings of Jesus by standing up for Justice, fighting for the cause of the oppressed, and loving our neighbor as ourselves lead to our self-destruction?
Well there was no truth in what Dan Savage said so we could start there. Second the trajectory seems to be to become more and more vitriolic in the attacks which will only ultimately turn people off. Third emotionalism and youthful immaturity were off.
*wear
None? Really? None? Would you like to try that again?
1) Certain factions of Christianity have chosen to focus on homosexuality and maintain it as an abomination while ignoring the rest of Levitical law. True.
2) The writers and interpreters of the Bible who condone slavery got the most basic Concept of Justice and Equality wrong. True.
Let me clarify:
His stance against bullying is truthful and we all should work towards ending all forms of it.
As far as the bible he does not know of what he speaks of.
He is ignorant of Levitcal laws and the meanings behind them. While it is true that some christian wrongly hold practicing homosexuality as a graver sin that other sexual sins, it does not change the fact that it is indeed a sin.
There have been and will always be people who try and use the bible for their own gain. Those that tried to justify racial based slavery through the bible were wrong. In the same way those that have tried very hard, and failed miserably I might add, to try and say that homosexuality is not a sin according to the bible re just as wrong.
You seem to be thinking the United States ended slavery and racial discrimination because it is a sin. A grave mistake. We ended those things and others because they were Unjust. Discrimination against homosexuals by legal policy that limits their equal rights is institutionalized discrination and it is Unjust. We seek the end of injustice as Christians because the Bible makes it clear that Injustice is wrong. The prophets before Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures hammer this theme home time and time again. That this Justice message isn’t preached in most evangelical churches is, itself, it’s own injustice.
Love mercy, do Justice, and walk humbly with your God says the prophet Micah.
Slave holders and their apologists who used the Bible to justify their inhumanity Stood on the wrong side of Justice, just as do those who use the Bible to discriminate against gay individuals.
Time will tell alright when 40 years from now children will be appalled that their God-fearing Christian grandparents didn’t stand up for Justice.
Christy we agree that legal discrimination is wrong and that we should pursue justice. Civil unions with all the same rights provided for married couples is the inevitable conclusion.
I also agree that discrimination in the church is something that we all need to work to eradicate but to try and change what scripture says is not the answer. A commiseration that we are all sinners is the answer.
No one has suggested we aren’t all sinners.
You refuse to admit the sexual sin of homosexual behavior. You cannot pick and choose what sins you will admit to.
The most recent gallop pull puts 53% of the country in favor of gay marriage. When you do that math, it’s clear that Christians are waking up to how ridiculous it is that they – we – continue to prevent gay men and women from enjoying the same legal rights as well as the social contract of “marriage” vs. a civil union. You’re losing your grip on this country and you can either start educating yourself as to why that is or not, that’s up to you. But you’re fooling yourself if gay men and women want anything to do with you or our faith at this point. You’ve ruined that for all of us by insisting their second class citizenship is God ordained. At this point they want to be in relationship with one another, go to work, pay their taxes and raise their kids and be left alone. We’ve lost any right to be heard by any of them. We as a Church have literally *shoved* them away from Jesus Christ. And we will all be accountable for that on the Last Day. It’s not them you should be worried about, Tim. It’s you.
You refuse to apply the same level of nuance and biblical scholarship to homosexuality as we have done to several of the Commandments. Thou shalt not kill. Ever? Under no circumstances? What about animals? Does it only apply to people? What about war? What about intruders? What about accidents? What about negligence? What about capital punishment? What about acts of omission that might cause someone to die – like withholding health care or a blood transfusion or a D and C to save a pregnant woman’s life? What about failing to address the starvation in Sudan when grocery stores and homes and restaurants and individuals across our wealthy and bountiful land throw away, literally, tons of food every. Single. Day. Surely God will not hold us guiltless for all these acts of killing.
Tim, a more informed view of scripture is exactly what we have afforded ourselves and is what we ask of our conservative brethren: to kindly do the same.
Blessings on your journey, my friend.
“Civil unions with all the same rights provided for married couples is the inevitable conclusion”
Really? Inevitable? How so? The equal but different argument has never worked before, what makes you think it will work for this? It was tried with races, it was tried with women, it has and will continue to fail on all counts. There is no such thing as different but equal when it comes to any form of civil rights.
Now, if you feel as do some that the solution is for the government to stay out of marriage all together and provide civil unions equally for all, then that would be equality, let the churches decide what to call a marriage (although there are probably many that would be offended by this as marriage has long been a civil institution and not a strictly religious one). Truth is though, if marriage were actually left to the churches there are plenty of churches that would be more than happy to marry same-sex couples, so really I don’t see how that is any different than the government just letting the churches decide who they will marry and having justices of the peace marry any qualified adults who wish to get married, you know, like we do here in Canada.
Cindy as much as people wish to try and equate a man and woman union and a man/woman/child(ren) family with SSM and SS family structure, they will never be the same. They will always be different or separate. They will never be equal.
Legalities, taxes, health proxies, insurance, etc… Can all be changed towards equality but the social value of what is known as the traditional family will and should always be, valued, protected and raised up to its unique place in the continuation and success of humanity.
Tim, you’ve seen that great diagram of what was “traditional maaiage” in the Bible, right? And know others used to make the same statements about inter racial couples?
Anything that says mine is different and therefore better is inherently prejudiced.
*****Christy we agree that legal discrimination is wrong and that we should pursue justice. Civil unions with all the same rights provided for married couples is the inevitable conclusion.******
So that means you have no problem with Civil Unions that provide all the same legal rights as marriage? That suggests that your problem is only with the word marriage with “gay” in front of it. You have undercut your own argument by attempting to make a distinction without a difference.
The anti-gay religious people make such easy rhetorical targets of themselves.
Sigh apparently Dan is not the only confused one. Humanity since the fall has created many types of unions practically all were practiced by some throughout time including people in the bible.
God created them male and female and Sid be fruitful and multiply. Jesus confirmed this.
Tim, your first mistake it defining homosexuality as “behavior”.
If I have failed to use the term I mean (homosexual behavior) than I apologize. People cannot help what they feel but they choose their behavior. All behavior is a choice unless there is some medical or physiological condition attached to a person so hey can’t control their actions.
Tim, it seems rather obvious that the “behavior” of sex stems from a “desire” for sex. I’m unclear as to how someone who claims to have such authoritative understanding is trying to separate the two. Thinking about sex stems from desire. Having it is the result of the desire and the thinking. The nature of *sin* begins with our desires, Scripture is quite clear on this. You’re trying to isolate homosexual behavior in order to maintain what you believe about it but your approach is not sound biblically or frankly, logically.
Homosexuality isn’t a behavior. It’s an orientation. There are celebate homosexuals, monogamous homosexuals, and not-so-monogamous homosexuals–just like there are celebate heterosexuals, monogamous heterosexuals and not-so-mongamous heterosexuals.
As I read where Tim wrote, “God created them male and female and Sid …,” I almost started going, “Who’s Sid?” (:
(Or more exactly, part of me did begin asking that but the rest of me immediately burst out laughing at it. And that made it feel stupid, and it laghed too, in that akwardly embarrassed kind of way.)
It’s fascinating that you’re saying “vitriol” turns people off when you’ve led with vitriol and hostility from your first comment. Where’s treemeister in asking for civil dialogue? I guess when the coin gets flipped and it’s someone on his side doing “rude”, there’s a good reason for it.
Well, the Bible condones slavery (or at least Paul does). Today’s Christian church condemns slavery. Why?
Blame gay people.
LOL!
Oh, you’ve seen the future? You must be so enlightened, knowing that the future is exactly what you believe a book says it will be.
Tim, next Wednesday won’t prove you correct, much less next year, next decade, or some Golden Age in the far flung future. You have it wrong.
How does anything you’ve said here even begin to come under the heading of “love your neighbor” and since it doesn’t, how can it possibly be right?
“Ok. But the future will prove me correct whether you like it or not.”
Indeed, it shall, only as soon as you change your mind / experience a change of heart, Tim.
I’m very sad to say this, but a lot of the way Christians have been relating to the Church’s sins lately has been to claim that we’re victims of the same thing.
Thus, claiming to be persecuted when businesses don’t give adequate lip service to Christmas during Conspicuous Consumption Season, and now claiming to be bullied when someone says that he disagrees with their ideas.
So, I finally got around to watching the contested video and I have to say wow. That was so tame. I was really expecting something much more outrageous considering all the hoopla about it. I was actually expecting to think that Dan Savage went too far and really was being at least a little hypocritical in the way he was dealing with Christians. Nope, don’t see it. Very tame. Very reserved. Just calling bulls**t bulls**t. Oh the horrors. Even in my fundamentalist days I would have sat through that. I would have excused Dan Savage for not understanding that we had figured out why those horrible things in the bible about slavery couldn’t be used to justify slavery today and just thinking we were ignoring them instead. LOL Yup, even in my fundie days I would have considered that quite tame and inoffensive.
I am not crazy about how Dan Savage usually delivers his message. He is just too off the cuff for me. But the kids attending the speech should have known that. Also, as you pointed out, “hello, *journalism* conference! You’re supposed to be “edgey”. If you can’t stand the heat stay out of… journalism! I can’t feel bad for the kids who walked out, sorry.
Also, I love what you said: “So what if he believes that among the most egregious of all Christian sins is daring to proclaim that God’s love ends where their own fear and hatred begin? “. May I quote?
Given Dan Savage’s reputation, I highly suspect those easily offended bible thumpers attended with full intention of finding something to walk out over. Notice how they started before he said anything other than, “I’m going to talk about the bible for a minute”. Also note the big grins on many of their faces as they walk out. I’d bet dollars to donuts the walkout was planned ahead of time and they were just waiting for the right moment to put on their little show.
You know?
Interesting thought. I wonder if more will come out later about whether it was indeed staged. One girl looks pretty offended. The others just look bored. But I’d be surprised if they somehow went in not expecting at least *some* offensive material.
Watch again. Some of them started walking out before he said much of anything. He certainly hadn’t gotten to anything offensive – unless she was an atheist and was offended by “Let’s talk about the Bible.”
If ‘Journalism on The Edge’ wasn’t a clear enough indicator to those attending, might I suggest they weren’t intelligent enough to be attending to begin with?
I take no exception to Dan Savage’s message, but I do take exception to the way it was delivered for several reasons. First of all, he was speaking to high school students. If they were adults, fine give ‘em both barrels. Secondly for the message of tolerance, kindness, and equality to truly resonate, we must be better than the bullies. We never win when we use their tactics, never. When we speak the truth w/ grace we can’t lose. Dan Savage broke a cardinal rule of journalism-don’t become the story. People do not generally change their perspective b/c someone yells at them. The power of love is always greater than the power of hate. It is our most potent weapon. Sadly, in this incident, Mr. Savage seems to have forgotten that.
Actually, as a former high school student myself, I really respect Dan Savage’s willingness to speak to them like adults. I think we pamper our teenagers too much as it is.
I didn’t think that what he said was so terrible. I didn’t hear him yelling. I thought he was very calm, rational and matter-of-fact in his expression.
Dan Savage is not a journalist, he is an advice columnist. And even if he were a journalist by profession, in this context he was not acting as a journalist. He was there as a celebrity – whoever arranged the talk made him the story.
I really don’t think there IS a nice way to say what he was saying. Kids are dying because of garbage in a book. Whether that garbage is in the original or is a mis-translation or misinterpretation, it is garbage and people are tormenting kids to death with it.
And if you watch the video, he wasn’t yelling at the kids. He wasn’t bullying anybody. The word “bullying” means something, not just “not being all cuddly”. The fact that that the truth is painful to those who violate the First Commandment by making a strange god out of a book doesn’t make telling that truth in public the same thing as tormenting a lone isolated kid.
******First of all, he was speaking to high school students. If they were adults, fine give ‘em both barrels.******
How utterly silly. So the ears of the 17yo senior should not be assailed with “bad” words, but those of the 18yo by one day are fair game? Don’t bother to explain. You can’t.
He’s not a journalist! He is an activist and writes an advice column, for goodness sake.
You may also be overlooking a very important point. Savage was very clear that we was speaking only of people who hypocritically use the Bible to justify hurting others while ignoring similar prohibitions that would apply to themselves.
So who’s going to be offended? Why would anyone be offended who didn’t feel that the “attack” applied to them? Offended enough to stand up and walk out? To create a media event to complain of being victimized?
If they felt singled out and yelled at, they need to spend a little time being introspective as to just why that was, when nearly 1800 of their peers didn’t.
Loved this speech, wish i could hear the whole thing.
Just search Dan Savage on YouTube. It will be there.
It’s worth mentioning that this conference included children, teens who were being watched by teachers and advisors. That’s not to say that they’re not responsible for their actions or shouldn’t be involved in the conversation, but teens aren’t exactly known for their mature and reasonable reactions to challenges to their beliefs, particularly when adult authority figures are watching.
Brainwashing begins in the crib. Eventually we can no longer think outside of what we ‘know.’
True. True.
These students were just practicing “Confirmation bias.” But instead of turning the channel from CNN to Fox News, like they would at home, they just left the room. (Yes, liberals to the same thing)
I’m sure many who would accuse Dan Savage of being a bully; never complain when Bill O’Reilly refers to his opponents has “pinheads”
The students who left are cowards! Savage never threatens to get violent. He should have invited the students to a debate. But deep down the students who left know that Bible is full of nonsense that they ignore.
« 1 2 3 4 »