As you may already know, there is just now much controversy swirling around this video of Dan Savage (Savage Love; the It Gets Better Project).
He was speaking on April 12 to attendees of the National High School Journalism Conference, sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. The four-day conference, featuring over 200 sessions, two keynote speakers (Dan and Jennifer Sizemore), more than a dozen featured speakers, and more events and activities than you can shake a pen at, was titled Journalism on the Edge.
The conference’s promo material begins with:
You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish.
And there, amongst all this journalistic edginess, was Dan Savage, being edgy.
Just who does this podium-pounding pontificator peddling in people’s perplexingly perverse predilections think he is, anyway?
I, for one, have no idea what the world has come to, when a person who has made his career out of speaking, in the most unadorned language possible, directly to great numbers of young people about some of the most important issues in their lives, dares to speak in unadorned language directly to a great number of young people about one of the most important issues in American life today.
Besides the fact that he was raised in a devoutly Catholic home and is the country’s leading gay activist, who is Dan Savage to say anything at all about the ages-old Christian condemnation of gay people? So what if his claim is manifestly valid that nothing contributes more to the destruction of the lives of gay people than do Christians falsely and hypocritically using the Bible as an instrument of brutality? So what if he believes that among the most egregious of all Christian sins is daring to proclaim that God’s love ends where their own fear and hatred begin? So what if every day, for decades on end, Dan Savage has dealt with young lives obliterated through violence informed and buttressed by the bedrock “Christian” view that gay people are less than human?
So what if any reasonably compassionate person should be expected to vigorously assert that it’s time for all Christians to reject using the Bible as a means of justifying the persecution of an entire population whose only “crime” is to prefer to spend their lives with same-sex partners?
Why should any of that matter? What matters is that Dan Savage cursed. He said bull**** not once, but three times.
Three! That’s one more than two! Which is two too many!
You know, it’s almost like the people who put on this conference, as well as a small but now (thanks, media machine!) significant number of individuals who attended it, don’t even know what the word “journalism” means.
Well, thank you, young people who walked out of Dan’s speech the moment he began talking about the parts of the Bible to which he takes exception, for reminding us of what beats so passionately in the heart and soul of every true journalist. Speaking as a person who for twelve years made his living as a journalist, I admire your dedication to the journalist’s creed: When you personally disagree with something someone is saying, get up and leave.
If that’s not what Jesus meant by, “The truth shall set you free,” I can’t imagine what he did mean.
P.S. What immediately become a meme amongst Dan’s critics is that those who walked out of his talk felt bullied by him. But that’s impossible. People get bullied because of who they are: how they look and act, what they say and do. Perceived as being in some critical way weak or lacking, victims of bullies are selected for persecution; they are pulled from the pack before being pointedly and repeatedly victimized. The people who walked out during Dan’s talk were not separated from their peers by anyone. They were content to do that themselves. They were not frightened or cowed. They were offended. They felt that by disparaging what amounts to their God, Dan had transgressed beyond their capacity for toleration. And they were pleased to show their intolerance of Dan’s words by protesting against them in the manner they did. Theirs was not an act born of suffering. It was a proud show of disdain.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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By the way, John, the P.S. is particularly awesome: a superb argument wonderfully worded!
I’ve been thinking about this whole thread/nuclear bomb/post and skimming over some of the “Rwar!” that’s going on and I’ve come up with what I think are somewhat poetic thoughts on it all.
Earlier this week when I brought up the petition that was on here, before signing it, I paused. I am ashamed of this. I paused because some old thoughts and insecurities came up in me all of a sudden. I’m a very insecure person, you see. I had the thought “What if I’m wrong? What if this is wrong? What if this really isn’t what God wants?” It was pretty much the same kind of thinking that came up in me the time I visited a Methodist church (after having been with Baptists) and seeing a lady-preacher.
And the same thing happened. “So what? Shut up, brain, this is right!”
I signed the petition giving my optional reason (probably least 200 other people gave the exact same reason, I’d think?) “Sick of the suicides.” That was it. If on Judgement Day God tells me I pulled an anti-scripture naughty or “accomdated sin,” I think I can live with that, because for now, I’m thinking about lives.
You can be loyal to pen and ink or flesh and blood, the letter of the law or its spirit, the long-dead or the still living, the back-then or the here-and-now.
Pen and ink, words, books – you will find no greater advocate of the written word than me. Literacy changed the human mind. Like art, mathematics and abstract thinking in general, it elevates us. In the absence of flux capacitors, magical ocarinas and TARDISes, it is our best chance to travel through time. Words echo to us from the past, from other worlds… But even the most inspired words, even the very words of God – belong primarily to the times in which they were written. To think that God doesn’t still speak today, and furthermore, that he gave us inquistive minds but didn’t want us to actively use them just seems… limiting.
Humans – living humans, well, I can tell you right now that I don’t like Humanity very much. People are obnoxious, selfish, often hypocritical, prone to things like war or, as one infamous psychological experiment showed, shocking someone to death if a guy in a lab coat tells us to… For me, the company of books is usually preferable to the company of humans… however, when it comes down to it, my loyalty is to those I share Right Now with. I’m just not the kind to say “Oh, no, can’t help you, the book says I can’t” to someone who needs my help. I’d rather be a Chaotic Good than a legalist.
Pen and Ink of Then or Flesh and Blood and Heart of Now? It seems like I know what choice I make when it comes down to it.
That’s profound and beautiful. Thank you.
There’s no “like” button here, but…Like.
Wow! Yes! And love casts out fear.
Well thought out and well said.
I think he needed to be much more articulate in his comments being directed at the inherent hypocracy of the current mainstream church- As I told my pastor this Sunday, who who preached on the first of Jesus miracle’s turning water into wine, Jesus didnt go and throw the money changers and traders out of the tavern- he threw them out of the temple.
I think Perez Hilton hot the ball out of the park on his video he did in response to Savage.
I wanted to add- I think Savage is very insightful in his commentaries-
My reply on CARM.org
Let those among us who are without sin cast the first stone.
If you’ve never told a white lie (Oh, Aunt Sally…that bright orange and brown sweater you knitted me for my birthday is lovely! I’ll wear it all the time!). Never swore. Never spoke badly against someone (ooops, caught ya there didn’t I?) (Colossians 3:8, Ephesians 4:25, Ephesians 4:31). Never looked at a person of the opposite sex and thought “Man, they’re looking good!” Never saw your neighbor come home with a brand new boat and thought “Wow, wouldn’t that be nice to have?” then throw away…until then put the rocks down.
That’s awesome! I’m so glad to see it’s getting attention. That was a brilliant piece! Reading the Favortite comments is smile-inducing as well.
Ugh. Never mind. Thanks for very well said defense, K.
Hey, Kathy! I’ll go check it out. What the heck.
This controversy is going international!
Oops. Sorry, I thought CARM was probably a Canadian radio station.
CARM, a crazy radio station, thinks you are a “False Believer” CAP F and CAP B–nice. https://www.facebook.com/Carm.org
Good for Dan for having the COURAGE to say what a lot of us are thinking. Although I am a believer in Christ and God, I have NEVER taken every word in the Bible as absolute truth. To do so is madness. There is wisdom in the book, but also philosophies that were created thousands of years ago by human beings. Sometimes it seems to me we are now entering into a new age of persecution by Christians who believe the “good book” gives them the right to torment others for the sake of Christ. We know that’s not really possible. Christ commands us to love and lay down our lives for each other, not make judgements or deify the works of man in the form of the so-called holy book
Thank you Dan!
Seems to me Savage was being very biblical.
He was doing unto them as they do unto others and giving them the measure that they have chosen.
If they want to be loved and respected, first they need to love and respect…
On an earlier thread, Tim talked about this not being about “hate”. Well here we have a gentleman who has identified himself as “Alex Wiles” who shows “how we do things here in North Carolina”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVfgD66uqgM&list=UUtDRBBmTSRF7DwpdJXlwchw&index=1&feature=plcp
How many violent, rage-fueled displays will it take until Tim and those of you who are in complete denial about the hostility toward gay men and women in the church will it take until you wake up?
Now that people are aware of the video he posted about himself, he’s issuing death threats to the people who posted about it, saying that he should have burned the sign and save the ammo for shooting people.
http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/2012/05/email-of-day.html
Charming.
Dan’s in good company. Seems storming out when you hear something you don’t like, or someone challenges one’s genteel sensibilities about how the world works – no matter how true it is – is the cause celebre.
http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/bill-nye-bood-in-texas-for/
i wish they had spelled booed right in the headline. it’s a real verb, so you can treat it like one. i wouldn’t play grammar nazi, except it was actually confusing for more than half a moment.
the story was disturbing for much longer, of course. i seriously thought *everybody* in the modern world knew that. even when my family was briefly into Geocentrism (yes, you read that right), we knew that the moon’s light was a reflection of the sun’s light.
If the story is accurately reported, then Nye didn’t do his homework. The Hebrew word for sun and moon translated as “light” in KJV English is better translated as “luminary”. Among the ancient Hebrews, it apparently was immaterial whether it was an actual light source or merely one that reflected light. The idea that the verse refers to the moon as an originating source of light is relatively recent.
His audience remains heavily populated w/idiots, however…
Satan and his servants will NOT appear to the majority of the world or “Church” as angels of darkness, but they will appear as angels of light, inasmuch as they will tell the people what they want to hear.
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.”
“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.”
I think telling people “what they want to hear” applies to telling people that they’re free to treat LGBT people like second-class citizens, because they really are better than them. Telling bullies to keep bullying as long as they can justify it with religion is “tickling their ears.” So is telling people that they’re victimized if someone ever tells them a hard truth, like, oh, your stance on this issue is killing children, you may want to rethink it.
Exactly! We should certainly take heed of these warnings in Scripture, but we shouldn’t be too quick to assume that they are always referring to *others*…
So what is your point vis-a-vis Dan Savage?
Yes, by their fruits you will know them. And what are the fruits of the socially pervasive religious anti-gay prejudice? You need only answer that question….HONESTLY……to know who the real angels of darkness are.
I like that he is worried about the coming of the anti christ like I am.
Also it is good that he brings up that Satan isn’t gonna pop out of the ground looking like one of H.P. Lovecraft’s creations.
I mean most people don’t like to live in constant paranoia, but it is good to have a plan in mind just in case.
Hope that the rapture is a long ways off, but be ready if its tommorow.
Unfortunately the only local channel I could pick up on my way home from a long business trip today was airing Sean Hannity and they were debating this very thing. Hannity and some lady who proclaimed very loudly that she was a Christian screamed at one poor lady who was trying to make the same points John made, it did not turn out well for her. If I have ever heard “bullying” it was on that program. Once again I wanted to melt into my seat and was horribly ashamed to be considered in the same category of their word “Christian”.
Why do they always have to bring Bill Maher up in every conversation about free speech? Last time I checked he is a comedian on HBO and does not profess to represent any religious view. But they harped on Bill Maher the entire time and never addressed the question on ‘journalism’ and I thought that was what this was about to begin with??? signed…continually confused….
Well, you can at least reassure yourself that they’ll probably leave Bill Maher out of future conversations. Next time, it will be all about Dan Savage.
I think it was telling her she was “being a shit” and calling her cruel and heartless that got people upset. Open relationships are a tricky business and this issue happens a lot withou the added turmoil of sexual assault. Do I agree that she needs help? Yes. But would Dan’s advice have been the same and as harshly doled out if it had been masturbation and not another lover that her husband consented to that she preferred over sex with her husband and he was hurt and upset by it?
Dan Savage was inappropriate. His point is valid, but the way he presented it was not. These are high school kids, and he was inappropriate. Belittling anyone is not acceptable. This is like the kid pointing fingers and saying “he did it first”, as if that excuses the behavior. Instead of people focusing on his point, they are focused instead on his superior, arrogant behavior. It is the very reason so many folks are turned off by Christians who act that way. Again, his point is very valid but gets lost in the crappy way he presents it. Personally I am really tired of all of the demagogues blowing hot air for their own aggrandizement, all of them: Liberals, conservatives, religious, or non religious. It does nothing to improve the situation, open dialogue or bring valuable and needed change. All that happens is a loss of focus on the true issue, and uproar over the “controversy” and gives both sides something to be indignant about. One of my favorite passages from 1 Peter chapter 3: 13 – 16 “Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened. But in your heart set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who you meet the reason for the hope that is in you. BUT DO THIS WITH GENTLENESS AND RESPECT, keeping a clear conscience so that who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.” A little humility goes a long way, I feel that Mr. Savage did more harm than good to a very real and valid concern.
During an intervention, family members at the end of their rope are brutally honest with how the addict’s behavior has impacted their life. They hold nothing back.
Dan Savage – or any gay man or woman for that matter – owe us nothing. Those of you playing the “tone police” are actually demonstrating the tremendous privilege that we as Christians have enjoyed for years as we dominated the media, the educational system and the legal code. You insist to be spoken to kindly and respectfully or you dismiss the point at hand which is exactly what people of privilege get to do, they get to simply walk away if they are being spoken to in a tone that makes them uncomfortable.
Now that privilege is gone (or it’s going). Anger is an activating agent and we have the honor of people like Dan Savage treating us like the grownups we are who are exercising our free speech in the ways that we do. He is no-holds barred. He is furious with us. He is sickened by us. He is frightened by us. And he SAYING so.
Adults who are pursuing the real Truth of Christ will look past their injured and offended ego that demands people treat our religion respectfully and start listening to the pain, the fear and the grief in his words. You’ll look past it. Do it quickly. you’re running out of time.
It’s not ego driven. I don’t care about being offended personally. It is driven by a frustration with a continued bitter and angry discourse that solves nothing but to incite the very people he wants to change. This kind of attitude is wrong, be it from Christians or anyone. I would, and do, say the same of Christians who behave this way. I despise what Christians have done in the name of Christ, and speak against it always. Name calling solves nothing but to distract from the truth of what he is saying. The real truth of Christ is to love, serve, lay down one’s life, sacrifice, forgive, heal, offer grace and speak the truth IN LOVE. Anger is valid. I get anger, I don’t get using it in a negative way to garner attention by belittling others. It doesn’t work in the long run, and centuries of hatred and bitterness – have shown us that. I feel that all people should be treated with kindness and respect, and that is how I try to act as a Christian. He has damaged his cause with his behavior, just as many, many Christians have with their inappropriate graceless behavior. One wrong does not justify another, all you get is a spiral of continued contention and bitterness.
Robin this isn’t personal. This is Christians demanding to be spoken to in a very specific way, or they will not listen. That’s demonstrative of a lack of emotional maturity and willingness to love people exactly where they are at.
Anger is actually an activating agent and speaking the Truth in Love sometimes involves yelling and profanity. Conflict is extremely productive and when we are disturbed or unsettled, we start paying attention in a more specific way.
Lord knows, DR, that I wouldn’t want to misdirect your ire unto myself, but, well, maybe you mean “can be”? That is, “Conflict *can be* extremely productive”?
I say this mostly because I think it’s important to bear in mind that conflict is *not necessarily* productive. Hyperbole has its place, for sure, but I’m not sure what purpose it serves here, other than perhaps to make you come across as maybe a little extreme—as if you’re convinced the path of maximal conflict is always the most productive way of resolving any issue (though I don’t think anyone here will dispute that sometimes—maybe even pretty often—it is).
Those are good points Matthew, appreciate that edit. Good thoughts.
*****Hyperbole has its place, for sure, but I’m not sure what purpose it serves here, …..*****
I know you are referring to the comments here, but let me redirect your comment to Dan’s comments. His anger, hyperbole if you will, seems to have indeed served a purpose rather stunningly. Look at all the controversy. It’s gone international for heaven’s sake. The subject of his presentation is getting discussed everywhere Christianity has influence with a focus on the gay social/religious issue. For that subject to be getting so much attention must surely be a problem for the anti-gay religious because discussion produces education and change, both of which are the bane of unexamined “faith” and anathema to the anti-gay religious.
In that light, Dan’s language has served the pro-gay cause simply by getting it discussed more than it would have been if he had not used the language. Without that language, his talk would likely have not made a ripple anymore than locally. No doubt this uproar has surprised even him. He disturbed the well ordered beehive and it can never be reordered in the same way. I say good for that.
Yes. Exactly this.
Yes. Good for that.
Dude, he’s not a Christian. He’s in no way obligated to behave as you feel Christians should behave.
But more than that, it borders on psychopathic to insist that victims of a crime should speak the truth in love to those who injured them.
Ahh. Sanity. (thank you)
Bingo.
Wait he isn’t a Christian? I thought he identified as a gay Christian.
It doesn’t really change my opinion on him, but it surprises me.
I hear you, and mostly agree. I think his anger is justified. However, you do have to know your intended audience and any good debater knows you have to be able to communicate in ways that your audience can hear, in ways that will be persuasive to them. There is a time for anger. And a time for carefully nuanced conversations. This audience was not specifically religious, but a mixed group.
He held his audience just fine. Those that walked out were obviously intent on that in advance and are therefore actually quite unimportant. He held his REAL audience, which was most of those who attended. Yes, there is a time for anger and the walkouts prompted one of those times. Why should they have been permitted to make their point without a sharp rejoinder? There was no obligation on anyone’s part to play nice with them. They set the rules with their rudeness and didn’t get away with it.
I’m not saying he didn’t hold his audience just fine. I’m agreeing with both you and Robin. *If* and *when* he chooses to engage Fundamentalist and Evangelical Conservative anti-gay Christians and they are his target audience and he hopes to actually persuasively achieve some movement from their current position….saying bullshit will not get their attention in the way one might hope to engage them. I have no issues with how he handled this journalism conference.
Right on, DR!
DR, thank you so much for understanding and speaking out about this kind of attitude of privilege and what it leads to.
I think Christians need to defend our privilege against other groups. Now we can do that with the gay Christians or without them(its easier with more), but the day Christianity falls is the day the world falls. The bible is perfectly clear on that part. You seem to think it is too late to reclaim what we have had for centuries, but I think this is a rough spot and we will be back to our old spot soon. This gay marriage issue is somewhat sticky, but we will get past it(the public’s attention span is short).
Some people like to say that day is far off or the Devil isn’t real, but that is wishful thinking.
The rapture is coming.
Re: “I think Christians need to defend our privilege”
So you’re against equality? In America.
Do they preach in your church that homosexuality in Roman society is what brought the fall of Rome? It’s a genuine question.
Rome was brought down by relying on Mercenary forces for its own defence. One of the reasons the United States refuses to use foreign Mercenaries in any of the wars we fight.
Eventually mercenaries figure out its more profitable to fight the people who are paying them for their money than it is to fight other people and keep getting payed for it.
Seriously? You’re saying Christians should be privileged above others? I don’t think so. We’re no better than any other religion or school of thought, given our history for the Crusades and other atrocities. That’s not okay, Tyrannus. Last I checked, the Bible said God gives opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. If you’re suggesting Christians are persecuted here, wrong again. You want persecution, go to the Middle East. We need to respect others, not act like martyrs when someone tells us not to shove oppressive beliefs down the world’s collective throats.
Ok think about who gains ground when we lose it.
Those worshippers have to go somewhere.
Do we let them turn to atheism
Scientology
Agnosticism
Marxism
Outright Satanism?
These are people’s souls that are on the line.
We can’t force them to join us, but we can try.
Its not like we lose worshippers and they turn to other Christian denominations(that is still gaining ground). We lose them and they turn away from the light.
If they go to a different religion that is ok too. Islam and Judaism are still worshipping the same God we are even though they have a different name for him.
It’s not a zero sum game. And this: “Its not like we lose worshippers and they turn to other Christian denominations(that is still gaining ground). We lose them and they turn away from the light.” is not accurate.
Latest research shows that evangelical youth are leaving the faith after college, but return to another Christian denomination once they start having children or later in life. I can’t speak to those leaving Catholicism. The spiritual but not religious crowd is also gaining steam.
And, I have to give you credit, TE, I didn’t expect you to be so open to the other two Abrahamic faiths. That was a pleasant surprise.
Re: “to reclaim what we have had for centuries”
You mean our murderous, patriarchal, authoritarian, autocratic, oppressive convert or die unholy marriage with greed and Empire?
Because that’s what it sounds like – the good ole days that you are pining for – and, by God, we will never let the faith return to that vile, Satanic period while we still breathe air.
You make Christianity sound so dark.
I am not advocating for the return of the spanish inquisition here I am saying we need to restore the public’s faith in Christianity.
They need to feel like we have the answers, that we are good people, that we are people worth trusting with their immortal souls.
We need to become the absolute authority on morality again.
Now maybe we will do that with our new gay christian friends or maybe that friendship isn’t gonna happen, but we need to stop being viewed as behind the times homophobics since that weakens all of the christian cause not just straight Christians.
The debate is gonna rage for a while just like the temperance movement raged for a while, but after this issue is clarified and decided we can’t be seen as obsolete, because when that happens you won’t like whatever new thing comes to replace it I guarantee you.
When I say absolute authority on morality I don’t mean that in a opressive sense, but rather from an advertising perspective.
People looking to buy a fast car buy the fastest car they can afford.
People looking for spiritual guidance look to the authority on spiritual guidance. We should all be be pushing christianity as that authority just like Rabbis preach that Judaism is that Authority and Imams preach that Islam is that authority.
Just wanted to clarify that since it sounded a little authoritarian when I reread it.
There’s something deeply ironic about your quoting Scripture to complain that the atheist didn’t present his points to your satisfaction.
You are aware that Dan has already publicly apologized for calling the kids “pansy-assed” for walking out?
Do you write these same complaints to the legislators, media pundits, and preachers out there saying far, far worse things about gay people?
Yes, I do.
Then thank you. Keep that up. That’s the far more important hurdle. I appreciate your efforts in that direction.
he apologized for the actual name-calling part.
Glad to hear. Believe me, I care a lot about this issue, I abhor it when Christians say the things they do to homosexuals, or anyone different from what they deem “acceptable”. I do constantly put that message out there: love, compassion, servanthood, grace…I call these horrid people who call themselves Christians out on their crap. I just get so tired of the name calling, belittling behavior that is so endemic in our culture. ESPECIALLY from people who call themselves Christians, most of all the Christians. I guess I am mainly calling out Christians on their bad behavior. I just feel that this is an important message, and the behavior does not promote anything positive. I get the anger…but I just find belittling the wrong way to go about getting your message across.
Robin, you’re not entirely correct which is the point being made to you. .Some people actually *do* respond to being called a name like “coward” or “arrogant”. I was one of them and there are dozens on this for who would say that getting a full face of hurt, anger and rage (that may include some belittling) is exactly what woke them up.
Totally understand the spirit of your intent. Your experience is not universal. Please. Policing tone gets irritating and unproductive very quickly. Thank you.
I, on the other hand, tend to get even more stubborn when faced with disapproval by other people. I faced a lot of disapproval growing up, often times not even knowing exactly what I was doing “wrong.” Eventually, I developed a “screw you” kind of attitude. On the other hand, being treated kindly makes me feel obligated to respond with equal kindness. Also, I won’t willfully hurt someone I regard as being weaker than myself. So for some of us, kindness is more effective than name-calling or belittling.
I don’t understand how Dan saying he hoped she pursued justice against the rapist was telling her what to do. My interpretation of his response is that he hopes the rapist gets the justice he deserves and that while she needs to heal from the rape, having sex with the boyfriend without her husband’s consent isn’t the appropriate way to go about the healing process.
“Besides the fact that he was raised in a devoutly Catholic home”
No he wasn’t. He was raised in a heterodox home by a mother who was for married, female, and homosexual priests.
That means she wasn’t devout? You can’t have a deep, real, and meaningful relationship with God if you feel that your denomination is too restrictive in who they allow to be at the altar?
His mother didn’t hold those beliefs when he was growing up.
I know I said I wouldn’t be back soon, but I figured it out. My false name means prince of evisceration. Rather fearsome, but the setting I pulled it out of is a dark and fearsome place.
Also I came to 3 important conclusions.
1. The most important is on whether gay marriage is right or wrong. I thought about it after visiting this site especially after DR asked some tough questions about how I discovered I was straight. I had always assumed that gay marriage was wrong, because the bible said so, but people were pulling out some rather ambiguous scriptures to defend that argument. Then other people were pointing out that we don’t follow other rules from the bible, and I was conflicted how can I justify lying, but condemn gay marriage. Mostly I kept asking myself why is this important now? Why is God asking me to choose right now and why aren’t these scriptures clearer? Then the answer came God never asked me to choose. The only people who are asking me to choose are men like myself. I am not required to answer to men only Jesus Christ who all men answer to. I realized that the decision isn’t one I am required to make. The only people who need to make this decision are gay. They have to decide if what they are doing is wrong not me and they have to choose whether to ask for forgiveness or not. It is their soul not mine. As I was telling DR when she said I was interfering with God’s reconciliation with his gay children that no man can disrupt another man’s personal connection to God even if he tried. That connection is ours to establish and ours to let go of just as our sexuality is ours to establish and ours to let go of. People may be pushing political agendas right now, but since when is that a concern of Christians?
2. I watched that Dan Savage video two more times and I got a strange feeling like I did the first time. Some people said it was fear or my pride being wounded although(pansy ass did wound my pride) that wasn’t the feeling. I have had my pride wounded I have felt fear this was different it was a sense of revulsion that left me hollow inside. Two words describe it false prophet. I had heard the words of a false prophet and it physically disgusted me. As people pointed out Dan Savage’s knowledge of scripture vastly exceeds my own just as the knowledge of scripture on this site vastly exceeds my own as I discovered when I tried to solo everyone with my what I now see as my half baked views. He could be saying gibberish and I would be none the wiser. All I had left to judge if he was worth listening to was his actions. All Christians can agree that actions should be judged on what would Jesus do. He did offend christians, but I cannot hold that against him as Jesus offended plenty of people in his travels. The thing is he didn’t stop there. He then shamed the Christians. Look at the faces on the people leaving the audience they are not thinking well I suppose I should be held responsible for how my beliefs affect others. They are ostracized from the rest of the group and ashamed of who they are. Jesus never did that. Well the man is imperfect as we all are no use holding that against him. The problem is he keeps going. He has won his critics are literally scattering before him, but he doesn’t stop. He makes jokes at their expense in order to get cheers from his remaining followers. Those kids are not cheering, because they agree with him they are cheering because Christians or maybe kids they don’t like that happen to be Christians are fleeing the scene obviously hurt. It is the same cheering you hear when a playground fight is going down. Hurting others to gain the approval of your followers that is a huge taboo for any Christian. The problem is he keeps going yes his final “pansy ass” remark he smiles during it. He is enjoying himself. He hurt others gained the respect of his followers while laughing. He knew what was going to happen in advance, because he planned his speech around it “you can send the bible kids back in I am done trashing the bible” basically he orchestrated everything. That is the exact opposite of what Jesus would do. It is so inimical to Christianity that the only person I can compare it to is you guessed Lucifer himself. Compare what happened in the garden of Eden to what happened in that Video. Lucifer fresh off his fall to earth discovers God’s two new creations adam and eve. He shames them leaving them utterly fallen from grace and then he goes back to the fallen angels in hell and brags about it to gain their approval while laughing. There is no remorse in either situation. What happened in that video was no Christian deed.
3. Finally Dan Savage tells us that the bible is “bullshit”, because it didn’t adress societal injustices to the level of satisfaction that we require today. He says it messed up slavery, equality, and homosexuality. We know that Slavery is wrong, equality is good, and that gay marriage should be allowed, because……
That is what we learned growing up. That is the reason. Our society holds those values dear and they are constantly in flux. Several years ago everyone knew gay marriage was wrong now everyone knows it is right imagine what we will know in a few more years. Dan Savage appeals to our pride that we know everything and that everyone else was wrong. Two thousand years of history are wrong and we know it because we are just that smart. Maybe we know these things are right and wrong, because our ancestors had to trial and error to pass us the morality that we do have? Maybe our advanced technology allows us to be more just and informed? Maybe slavery ended because we no longer needed a slave labor force to harvest crops with advanced farm machinery. No Dan Savage says we are that good just us not the bible. He is appealing to a sin our pride. Jesus never appealed to pride. He appealed to people’s compassion. He appealed to people’s morality and decency. He appealed to his own authority as the son of God, but he never appealed to people’s base instincts, because he didn’t need to.
If you need to ask whose teaching you should be following. Follow the new testament not men who make gods of themselves with pride.
“Look at the faces on the people leaving the audience they are not thinking well I suppose I should be held responsible for how my beliefs affect others. They are ostracized from the rest of the group and ashamed of who they are.”
Look again. I think you might be projecting.
“It is the same cheering you hear when a playground fight is going down.”
Ok, so, Dan’s a fighter. Makes it kinda hard to use Scripture regarding “effeminacy” against him, doesn’t it? But I hope you do see that he’s not just going around picking fights over revering the Bible, but defending himself in a fight started by those who interpret the Bible as anti-gay. And it’s not like this sort of thing is peculiar to kids on the playground: ever been to hockey game? or a DNC/GOP convention?
“He knew what was going to happen in advance, because he planned his speech around it ‘you can send the bible kids back in I am done trashing the bible’ basically he orchestrated everything.”
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. That line seemed clearly ad-libbed to me.
“We know that Slavery is wrong, equality is good, and that gay marriage should be allowed, because…… That is what we learned growing up. That is the reason.”
No! It is because God shows us what is right and wrong—or tries to, anyway, though we can be rather blind sometimes. Are you saying that there is no absolute moral truth to be known? Are you saying there really is no God at all but you’ve chosen for yourself this God-of-convenience?
“Maybe we know these things are right and wrong, because our ancestors had to trial and error to pass us the morality that we do have? Maybe our advanced technology allows us to be more just and informed? Maybe slavery ended because we no longer needed a slave labor force to harvest crops with advanced farm machinery. No Dan Savage says we are that good just us not the bible.”
At first, you appear to be talking sense here, but then, I just don’t see where Dan Savage has disagreed with any of that actually.
“If you need to ask whose teaching you should be following. Follow the new testament not men who make gods of themselves with pride.”
Amen, brother.
The idea of an absolute moral truth is novel to me, and my ideas are rather close to moral relativism in hindsight.
I don’t like the idea that people willfully blinded themselves to God’s will for two thousand years and that we are only now embracing it, but I suppose it is possible humans are stubborn if nothing else.
The only thing to do is pray for wisdom it seems. Something we should all do more often.
It sounds as though you’ve had some breakthroughs, and thank you for being open to even the possibility that God may be speaking in ways you aren’ t used to.
For what it’s worth, Dan Savage has already apologized for the “pansy-ass” remark, saying that it was taking things to an inappropriate personal level and name calling. He agrees with you, as far as that goes, that he went too far when he did so.
I’d ask you to rethink your subsequent interpretation that his motivation was literally demonic and that he is the one who orchestrated the situation. I suspect you really have no idea what gay people go through at the hands of Christians, and the often daily pain and drain it has on our self-esteem and our tolerance for the hypocrisy of Christians who give themselves a pass for the most horrible behavior while condemning us simply for loving. Dan is a husband and a father, and his family is under constant attack. He feels very strongly that it is undeserved, and unchristian. And he can get on a roll and take things too far. He stands by everything he said about the Bible, but apologizes for saying personally hurtful things to high school students who probably don’t know any better.
How many anti-gay Christian public figures would do the same? The stuff they say about gay people makes “pansy-ass” absolutely nothing in comparison. If Dan is demonic for saying that, what are they when they say that we are trying to bring about the end of civilization, attempting to destroy Christianity, and condemned to hell for eternity by definition? I’ve never seen one of them say that maybe they went too far and apologize for being hurtful, even when what they say causes a teenager to kill themselves.
Please listen to the video again. Dan doesn’t say -ever- that “the Bible is bullshit.” What he says is that we’ve learned to overlook specific bullshit in the Bible. While you may not approve of the phrasing, you can’t disagree with the fact. There are things in the Bible that are absolutely clearly forbidden, like eating pork, and things that are absolutely required, like forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist and stoning children to death who curse their parents. We don’t believe God requires that any more, and we disagree strongly with anyone who says that God does. So we believe that parts of the Bible no longer apply. If all that is making you think that Dan Savage reminds you of a demon from hell is his choice of vocabulary – words these kids say and hear every single day – you might choose to rethink that.
The overriding theme of Dan’s career body of work is that people need to dig inside themselves and find what works for them, and to be open and honest with the people closest to them about what that truth is. As opinionated as he often is, he makes a very, very, strong effort never to tell people what their own truth is supposed to be, but he will call them out when what they say they believe is clearly BS because it’s internally inconsistent. And that’s as true of religious belief as it is about politics or sexual identity and practice.
He isn’t calling the Bible bullshit – he’s saying that it is bullshit to claim that it is mandatory to hurt other people purely because of what the Bible says, and then turn around and say that what the Bible says about something else doesn’t apply any more because times have changed and we have a new understanding. On every other issue, these people say “We have to balance what the Bible says with what we know about the world today and what other parts of the Bible and our religious and social history have taught us.” On homosexuality, and often on homosexuality alone, they say “The Bible says it, and that ends it, with no possibility of further discussion.”
And that’s wrong. And saying so isn’t pride. It’s courage, and truthfulness. And making fun of high school kids who have bought a line of hypocrisy that people taught them is rude, and he apologized.
But he’s sure as hell not the devil. Lucifer himself? Really? You’ve seen Lucifer give press conferences?
So you essentially made a decision based on how offended you got and based on a thin slice of Dan Savage, despite the hundreds of kids he’s saved ( that Christians like you could give a shit about because if you did, you would prioritize making sure they stay alive and get an added layer of support from you).
And you can’t answer how and why someone becomes gay – by your own admission – but you call the guy who cls Christians out for our bullshit use of the Bible to make people feel like they are choosing being gay a false prophet.
Your name is descriptive. Your positions are eviscerated when anyone adds a human litmus test. And then you disappear when it gets too scary for you. You’re no different from any other terrified and confused Christian who is more committed to staying right and in control vs. following Christ. The damage you do is for those of us who actually care about this community to clean up. We will continue to apologize upon your behalf and make amends. I will be here long after you are gone. And God have mercy on you for the destruction you cause and your cowardice that prevents you from truly examining it.
The problem is I am not judging him based on the video alone. I have read the links about him that people have posted, and they are all about the same thing.
Dan Savage offends group of people. Now the group changes everytime Christian children, obese people, gay people, rape victims, transexuals(Dan Savage really hates those people) but the story stays the same Dan Savage said something and other people are hurting or angry or both.
Either he can’t control what he says and he just says what he is thinking(like Joe Biden) or he is addicted to putting other people down so he feels better about himself (a bully).
You might feel those links are wrong or that the author of them is biased, but I have made my decision on the man. Your view of him is your own to form and keep.
You are right when you say you will be a follower of this blog a lot longer than I will be since my days of traveling through blogs like this are pretty much at an end. I have been banned from 2 blogs now(both about patriarchal oppression of women) now I do not consider myself a troll since the arguments I put out may be wrong according to the blog I post on but they are legitimately what I believe. I will be exiling myself from this blog.
None of the blogs ever changed my mind about anything until I came to this one. This worries me since I used to be uncompromising in my beliefs, and now I am on shaky ground. Maybe the pope will make a papal decree and I can put this issue behind me. Right now I am leaving the issue up to the individuals themselves to decide if what they are doing is right or wrong.
You seem to be holding gay suicides against me and presumably the religious right. Suicide is a terrible tragedy since the life God gives us is not ours to end when we please(I am supportive of family members ending the lives of those in pain or who are no longer sentient(in a coma).
The thing is that is again individual decision. No one can force someone to kill themselves if they did it would be murder not suicide. We all have to choose life over death.
You are mad at me and other like me, but you need to be mad at those who chose to end their own lives as their parents are. I have never heard the parents of a suicide victim blame anyone else besides their child or themselves.
God willing the individuals go to purgatory or are given another chance to choose life over death.
I read Allie’s comment she had good points about Dan Savage being forced into tight spots and growing up in a different time.
God bless and keep you. It’s clear you are trying, and that counts for a lot. I’m going to answer your second point by asking to look at a psalm, Psalm 137.
By the waters of Babylon,
there we sat down and wept,
when we remembered Zion.
On the willows there
we hung up our lyres.
For there our captors
required of us songs,
and our tormentors, mirth, saying,
“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
How shall we sing the LORD’s song
in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand forget its skill!
Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy!
Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites
the day of Jerusalem,
how they said, “Lay it bare, lay it bare,
down to its foundations!”
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
blessed shall he be who repays you
with what you have done to us!
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!
Here we have a story: the people of a conquered city are led off into slavery in a strange land, and their captors demand that they entertain them by singing songs from their homeland. No doubt the captives did as they were asked to, but later, and in private, the captive songwriter responds by creating this song/poem cursing the captors and wishing death on their children. It’s grim and utterly believable – who could blame the writer for a heartbeat for feeling as he does?
Do we, as Christians reading this, respond by thinking that God really will bless anyone who smacks an Edomite baby’s brains out against a rock? I don’t think so. Neither do I think that the psalm is awful and of an earlier time and should be disregarded. The feelings it describes are not old fashioned feelings – go to any comments section about a crime and you can see people wishing death in the ugliest terms against the criminals. There was a woman recently who killed a pregnant woman and stole her child, and the comments section had a lady say that she deserved to have her own two children murdered in front of her.
That’s not a very Christian thought. But it is Christian to understand where she’s coming from, and why she would say that. The lady who said that wasn’t a devil, she wasn’t “Of Lucifer,” she was someone who feels helpless and outraged about a terrible crime.
Do you see where I’m going here? Dan’s not a bad guy. He’s a very good guy. He’s fighting for people who need his help. Does he enjoy the smackdown perhaps more than a perfect person should? Well… I don’t know anyone living who doesn’t get at least a tiny little rush out of watching bad guys get their comeuppance. It’s really really hard to be someone who fights evil, day in and day out, without also being the kind of person who enjoys fighting.
He has been wronged, a lot. This is not some theoretical problem to him: he is an adult gay man (which means he grew up during a time period when persecution was even worse than it is today) who is also a father, and a public figure, and someone who reads letters from other gay people. He has had a LOT of shit thrown at him, and he has seen a lot of shit thrown at other people. And he is still in there, fighting. He doesn’t have to do that. It would be much easier for him to use his enormous writing talent doing something that didn’t make him a target. But he is doing it. I want you to think about that, and think about the respect that you owe to a person like that.
[This is slightly off topic]
Allie, thanks so much for sharing this Psalm, and your insights. I had a situation a year and a half ago that resulted in me confronting the reality that I couldn’t find it in me to wish for the health of a pre-term infant (who is now absolutely fine). How could I be such a terrible person? It was shocking and distressing to me that I was so overwhelmed by negative emotions! For 2 weeks I basically cried myself to sleep every night. There is a long and complex back-story, involving the infant’s mother and a very dear friend of mine, and I was so utterly outraged at the unfairness of the whole thing. My head knew that I was being ridiculous, but my heart was in turmoil. Somehow God got through to me and healed my pain, and of course *now* I’m delighted that the child is fine, but I can totally relate to the despair expressed in this Psalm, and the desire to hit back at their oppressors in the most hurtful way possible….
Thank you for your blessing. I will keep what you said about Dan’s struggles in mind.
This is good. Other people already talked about the stuff you said that is still really problematic, but this is awesome. I’ve been in kind of the same spot where you are. It’s hard to try to rethink things you’ve been taught since forever. And it’s even harder to admit that not only do you not have all the answers, but you’re probably never going to, and there are answers that really aren’t yours to get.
Our first job as Christians is to love people as Christ loved them. Help them, care about them, listen to them. “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:5 Not “because you know all the answers” or “because you win arguments” but “if you love one another.”
Another thing to remember is that we are taught, as Christians (at least in evangelical and pentecostal circles–I can’t speak for other denominations) to believe that we are persecuted. We’re not persecuted. We’re in the majority, and in practice we have more religious freedom than minority religions or non-religious people. It goes back to what DR said about privilege. We expect our views to be treated with respect that isn’t shown to other beliefs, and we feel that we’re bullied and persecuted if someone even argues with us. I feel persecuted and bullied too, when someone disrespects the Bible, or Christ. But I’m not. I’m upset, but that’s all. If I lost my job because of my faith, or was thrown out of an apartment, or beaten up, that would be bullying. And that happens to gay people all the time. (Incidentally, it happens to minority religions too. If you think Christians are bullied, listen to a Wiccan or other variety of pagan about their experiences some time.)
To bully someone, you have to have power over them. Maybe it comes from being bigger and stronger, maybe from having them outnumbered, maybe from knowing that you can get away with whatever you want to do. But without a power imbalance, there’s no bullying. I don’t think those kids were bullied. I think some of them may have felt sincerely hurt, rather than offended and self-righteous, but that doesn’t mean they were bullied.
they’re smirking. i don’t remember smirking when i was bullied in school. they don’t look scared, horrified, blood drained out of them in terror… anything like that.
he called them a mean name, for a cheap laugh, and he later apologized for that part, publicly, online.
he didn’t say the Bible was Bullshit. he said there was Bullshit in the Bible. that’s different: like if one of your hairs fell into your spaghetti and you took it out and finished eating the spaghetti, vs. eating a plate of hair.
also, who is the “we” that needed a slave labour force? it seems like you don’t even include the Black people in your “we” for this country. i guess i see why because you imply that you think all this progress stuff is kind of silly.
i have no idea if Dan Savage is a nice person, i’m just judging what i saw in this one video.
i think you saw a different video.
in the video i saw, he was calling out a big and very current mistake in the church. i think we can take truth as useful, no matter who it comes from.
But maybe a little less harsh, a marriage tends to exist for either a love contract or a business contract. It sounds like her husband wants to be the primary support system for her in both emotion and sex, but she is not reciprocating that. She needs to figure out what kind of marriage she wants and if her husband is the right man for that.
yeah, so I read through Amy’s link and the post it originated from. Sorry, I have to agree with Dan. She was in an open marriage and was raped by a former lover. Now she claims she can’t have sex with her husband because of the rape and the reactions that are triggered but that sex with her boyfriend feels both safe and has actually improved. Next on Jerry Springer, two brothers find out that they have been married to the same person for ten years.
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2010/11/dan-savage-attacks-rape-survivor-while.html
As a woman and a survivor, I simply do not agree with your characterization of Dan’s comments.
YIKES! That’s so … beyond comment. (Though I certainly liked yours at the end there, Diana. I mean, you know. Sort of.)
You know something that fascinates me? Doesn’t surprise me, but fascinates me?
Hundreds of comments here, and hundreds more on other sites, and I’ve yet to see a single post from anyone saying “Yes, I agree that Dan Savage is right that the Bible got slavery, menstruation, and shellfish wrong, but the opposition to equal rights for gay people and the opposition to anti-bullying laws aren’t based just on a few texts from the Bible – here is my well-reasoned and logically thought-out justification for disapproving of treating gay people under the law the same way we treat people of other religions or who make other sexual choices we disapprove of.”
Not a peep. It’s all about how offensive Dan was, without saying precisely why, or simple reiteration of the Bible quotes, or even non-sequiturs like the fact that straight marriage is a good thing. Or deflection that ‘nyah, nyah, see, he’s bullying these kids” which is transparently grasping for desperate straws.
You can make a purely secular argument for criminalizing murder, or child abuse, or bearing false witness in legal cases.
There IS no justification for secular discrimination against gay people, and in 51 years of being gay, I’ve yet to hear one, and this brouhaha is no different. Even here, nobody will even say what it is that Dan got wrong, just that it is a given that he is.
More proof that they’ve got nothing but bigotry.
Read my comment I don’t say it exactly like you wish, but I did get the jist of it.
Sharon
Honestly, no you didn’t. Your post didn’t even try.
I know that you feel you are a supporter of LGBT people in some form, and that’s wonderful if it’s true.
But your post wasn’t about setting aside the literal text of the Bible and making a case for or against the equal treatment of gay people using the same kind of principled argument we use about other moral issues when it is time to pass laws about them.
Your post was, pure and simple, all about “not all Christians are like that.” Condemning Dan for actually saying what people get wrong, and claiming that he said all Christians think so, when even in this clip, he specifically says otherwise.
I appreciate your support, but if your focus really is on making sure that gay people don’t blame all Christians for hurting them rather than making sure that all Christians actually stop hurting people, your aim is off.
I find it really hard to believe that Dan was ever a jackass to a rape victim who wrote him for advice—for starters. That’s just not who he is, at all. Link, perhaps?
I need time to think on what we have talked about here. I won’t be back soon.
Thanks for letting us know.
See, I really don’t like Dan Savage, but that’s because he was an utter jackass to a rape victim who wrote to him asking for advice, and because he’s said things that are racist and bi/trans/fatphobic. These are legitimate reasons to dislike him. The fact that he swears and calls mainstream Christianity out on its bullshit is not.
Tim, Tim, Tim. Please, if you are going to jump in with such a thing, do show us where one single critic of Gagnon’s work lauds him. Not where someone says that someone praises him, but where a real person, a respected theological scholar who criticizes Gagnon, then turns around and praises his scriptural work. He is so full of BS that listening to him is downright painful.
This wound up in the wrong spot for some reason – should be a response to Tim a few posts back singing the praises of Robert Gagnon. Ick.
Sure Mindy. Over at Tony Jones blog there were a series of posts about the book. There were many disagreements on some of Gagnons secondary and tertiary conclusions but as to his work with biblical text no one could refute him and many, even though they ultimately disagreed with him for different reason, why begrudgingly acknowledged his very fine scholarly work.
I suggest that people read the book so that they can accurately and intelligently offer an opinion themselves instead of simply relying on someone else’s assertions or criticisms.
I followed a couple of the links to the fox news-related criticisms of Dan and stupidly browsed through some of the comments. In the span of just a few minutes, I learned that slavery was a blessing for black people because they otherwise would have been wiped out but instead were saved so they could eventually live in the greatest country in the world. That’s because without slavery, you get genocide. Also, the fact that all gay men are pedophiles can be proven by looking at the ancient Greeks. I died a little inside.
Cool how the Bible is all about African-American slavery in the US south, rather than, about Hebrew, Greek, or Roman slavery, eh? Such forward thinking writers!
LOL!! Exactly.
The one time I had the guts to tell my father about what was happening to me at school, he said that I needed to learn how to defend myself and ultimately it would make me stronger. Diana, I died a little inside that day too. Fox News is the poster child for what it means to be a bully.
Last time i checked, Africa wasn’t very empty.
While I disagree with “Tim” about homosexuality being sinful and a choice, I do agree that Dan does himself and his listeners a disservice by viewing those Bible verses alone. Jesus and others in the NT add breadth to this message that leaves us understanding it in a whole new way. If the message of the Bible were really what Dan is sharing there wouldn’t be many Christians today.
Dan and a lot of “Christians” are reading those scriptures in the same way. The difference is that Dan rejects them and Christianity too while those “Christians” embrace them and then distort Christianity into a religion that encourages cruelty.
Jesus brings the Good News!
Slavery and abuse of our fellow human beings isn’t good news and isn’t Christian and it isn’t Biblical.
Love and peace,
Sharon
If you are at all familiar with Dan’s work, he most definitely doesn’t look at those Bible verses alone. But your view that the Bible and Christianity are far more than just those specific verses is right in line with what he was saying.
His point was that people are able to see that added breadth on just about every topic outside of homosexuality. Dan may reject Christianity as an atheist, but it’s a severe mischaracterization of his views to imply that the verses he cites are the foundation of his disbelief.
In fact, it’s a pretty severe mischaracterization to claim that what Dan says in this clip even reflects his own personal beliefs, beyond his stated right to defend himself against attacks from others, and that he clearly doesn’t believe in Biblical inerrency. He says that people who claim the Bible forces them to attack gay people are hypocrites unless they follow all these other things too.
A devout Christian could say the same things. And many do.
Well, I’m sorry I wasn’t addressing the whole of Dan’s work or defining the whole of his reasons for rejecting Christianity.
I was only talking about the content of this video, which I thought was the topic of this conversation.
I will say that “His point was that people are able to see that added breadth on just about every topic outside of homosexuality.” Really limits the group called “people.”
So many Christians and others include homosexuality in this grace filled breadth. Why do you think that blogs like this one are popping up all over. It’s because Christians do this thing you and Dan say people don’t do. Why do you think denomination after denomination are making strong statements including homosexuals, even those not celibate, in ordination and leadership?
It’s because people, even Christian people do this. God loves you, Jesus loves you, we know that!
I’m sorry that those Christians who don’t get it are so cruel. But please don’t lump everyone who uses the name of Christ in that. You don’t like sweeping statements, please don’t use them on us.
Something you know about this day of media is that the grossest wheel gets the grease. That’s why the masses think that all Muslims are terrorists, all gays are outrageous, scary people on parade floats, and all Christians are like Pat Robertson and Rick Santorum.
Let me tell you something, those guys never came to my church and they wouldn’t like it much if they did. Churches like mine aren’t in the media, but we are still a majority among Christians.
I’m sorry you’ve been hurt, but it wasn’t by people who were following the teachings of Christ.
Love, really.
Sharon
So, could you help get the rest of the silent majority to sign the petition, the link to which you can find at the top of this page, rightmost column, so that we can prove it?
This, indeed!
I’m doing what I can!
Thanks Sharon! I would love your church I am most certain!
Robin, there are a lot of great churches out there. You can’t choose strictly by denomination as within each you will find a range. But Episcopal, ELCA Lutheran, UCC United Church of Christ, American Baptist, and PCUSA Presbyterian have all made statements welcoming the ordination of gay people, even if not celibate. The United Methodists are in discussions now. Some of these denominations are in the process of splitting over it. That’s sad, but it’s got a good side too.
For example, if you are considering a Presbyterian Church ask if they are PCUSA , if not they are probably not very gay friendly. If they are, ask if they are part of the “Fellowship” If they are, leave. That is the group started as a rejection of gay ordination.
I don’t know the details about the other denoms. but many some Lutherans and Episcopalians can help us out.
Sharon
You’re being very defensive. It’s not helping move anything forward, particularly those of us in Christianity who are committed to stopping this damage. Insisting that people pay attention to us *good* Christians is making the issue about us when ultimately, we’re not *good* until we’ve stopped this abusive evil in our own Churches. To ask people to pay attention to the good that is happening is natural but it’s actually detrimental. Please consider that seriously.
Sharon,
I’m pretty sure I understand what you think you are doing. If this is your usual approach, you may want to rethink it.
Just this specific post – your focus is entirely on your feeling wronged that the people who have been hurt by Christians aren’t being sufficiently nuanced and giving you a personal pass. And attacking me for making sweeping statements I was very careful not to make.
I wonder if you can see how much the way you said what you said contributes to the very problem. This post of yours has nothing to do with the mistreatment of gay people, and everything to do with setting as the first priority that the wrong people don’t get the blame.
Instead of focusing first on making sure that the people who have been hurt understand where to put the blame (and thereby contributing further to the hurt), perhaps you could shift your focus to actually stopping the hurt that is being caused.
Sharon,
In addition to agreeing with what Lymis said in comments both above and below, your complaint, “but we aren’t all like that,” has been addressed by Dan more than once. His response in a nutshell is always, “I know. Don’t tell me, I know all Christians aren’t like that.” But he goes on to make the point that the squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease just is not an acceptable response–not only for gay people, but for Christians who “aren’t like that.” And I actually think that’s kind of an important point for all kinds of people of faith. It is not okay that members of designated hate groups now represent people of faith on media news shows, precisely because they do not represent either an accurate picture of all Christians, or of Christianity. Yet the outcry of wounded Christians never seems to be directed at these Christian hate group members–and Pat Robertson is about the most benign of the examples you could have given–but rather always at those who do have the strength, honesty, and courage to call them out. Why aren’t Christians who “aren’t like that” offended, hurt, and up in arms that their faith is being so publicly and so frequently usurped by extremists voices who claim to represent not only all “true” Christians, but even worse, the ultimate Truth?
Still, the larger point stands, and I would ask that you as a faithful person, consider it: this is a civil rights, a human rights issue. This is an issue where people get much more than offended feelings. They get everything from discrimination, to homelessness, to injury and death. From my own personal perspective, I believe that the ultimately self-sacrificing Jesus would (as He consistently did by example, and in his teachings) have kept the focus on this.
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