[UPDATE: Biola president Barry Corey uses bully pulpit to threaten Biola QueerUnderground.]
If you imagine American Christianity as a 1950′s city in the Midwest, Biola University would be its Central High. Gigantic (145 academic programs; 95 acres; more than 1 million square feet of building space in 40 major buildings) and long-established (founded in 1908; . . . well, that’s about it), Biola is one of the big dogs of Christian colleges. And as big dogs go, it is definitely one of the more conservative ones.
On the Biola website, under “Our Vision,” it says, “Biola University’s vision is to be an exemplary Christian university, characterized as a community of grace that promotes and inspires personal life transformation in Christ which illuminates the world with His light and truth.”
Located in Los Angeles, Biola is, in short, the sort of place where, back in the day, the Church Lady would have been a (awesome!) cheerleader.
So yesterday afternoon whilst working in a coffee shop I received this email:
Hi John!
I’m a student at Biola University, which is one of the country’s most prestigious evangelical universities, and arguably one of the most close-minded when it comes to LGBTQ issues. I am a huge fan of your work.
At Biola, if a student is openly in a same-sex relationship, they’re almost certain to be expelled—and God only knows how the school would handle those who are transgender.
I am the co-founder of Biola’s secret LGBTQ-Straight Alliance. And we just staged a mini-uprising at Biola to announce our new website, Biola Queer Underground.
This morning we had a group of students from other universities come on to our campus and pass out business cards with our website information on it. We also had our friends put up posters that read Biola is Queer, and we placed QR codes for our website on popsicle sticks which were then placed all over campus.
My favorite part was a sign we made that had a picture of Ellen and Portia, and Neil Patrick Harris and David Burtka, with a Biola, Why U No Like?? meme underneath.
Anyway, we would really appreciate anything you might do by way of letting the world know we’re out here (ha, ha). Of course, none of my personal information could be disclosed; I’m trying to remain anonymous as possible, since we’re all facing possible expulsion by doing this.
My coffee almost became a choke-a-chino. A group of gay underground student activists at Biola!? That’s pretty much like being a snickerdoodle in the inside pocket of Cookie Monster’s sports coat!
How long can that last?
I right away asked my new underground gay activist student friend if I could phone him/her/I’ll never tell. After receiving the number to call, I immediately stepped outside: the walls, after all, have ears. Plus they block signal reception.
“So you’re really forming this club?” I asked the person on the other end of the phone. “At Biola?”
“That’s what we’re doing,” came the voice of a kind and intelligent young adult. “We have to. This whole school is so oppressive. What we’re doing is so needed here.”
“This is amazing. Aren’t you afraid you’re going to get caught? And expelled?”
“Oh, we’ll definitely get expelled if the school finds out we’re doing this. That’s for sure. I’ll send you an article from our campus newspaper in which Chris Grace, Biola’s vice president of Student Development and university planning, is quoted as saying that any student who ‘explicitly challenging or violating’ the school’s policies on homosexuality will be expelled. [She/he did send me that article; Mr. Grace did say exactly that.]
“Do your parents know you’re doing this?”
“Not at all. Definitely not.” The extra emphasis made sense. It costs some $40,000 a year to attend Biola. I can’t imagine too many of the students’ parents being thrilled at their child being expelled from the school for being unrepentantly gay.
“How did you even start this club?” I asked.
“Well, I’m [gay/lesbian/transgender/guess you'll have to guess, Mr. Grace], and knew a few other students who were the same. So one day I was talking with a friend, and we came to realize how badly a club like Queer Underground was needed at Biola. So we decided to start that club ourselves. We held our first meeting this past winter. From there the club grew very quickly, and we’ve been holding weekly meetings ever since.”
“How did you find people to join Biola Queer Underground?” I asked. I imagined her/him standing in the shadows of the student union building, wearing dark glasses, a fedora, and a belted trench coat with the collar turned up, whispering to students passing by, “Pssst. Gay? Wanna be in a club?”
“Telling people that we exist is definitely the tricky part. We have to be so careful. But the truth is, once we started the club, I could just … we could … I mean, not to sound all charismatic about it—but we could just feel when we were dealing with a student who would benefit from it. But even then, we’re very careful. We have this whole system set up, where we essentially, and very delicately, vet a person through talking to and connecting with their friends and associates. It’s a subtle process. But it works. By the time we actually extend someone an invitation to join us, we know that’s the right thing to do. And so far it’s been great. It’s surprised even us how many people have joined the group.”
“And no leaks so far?”
“No leaks so far. But after the event we did this morning, we’re all feeling the pressure. The whole security and safety thing at Biola has always been really pronounced: there are always security guards all over campus. Which is great. But that whole apparatus really kicked into gear after we had spread our stuff all over campus this morning. Within ten minutes, everything we put out had disappeared. All of it, gone. Now everyone in security is looking for us.
“That’s pretty scary.”
“It is. But we blend. If there’s one thing gay Christians know how to do, it’s blend.”
“What would you like for me to tell people?” I asked.
“Just tell them we’re here. That’s all we want, is for people to know that we exist. Even though our group is large, we can’t help but feel awfully isolated, having to be so secretive, always knowing that at any moment our whole world might be turned upside down and shaken hard, just because of who we are. So it would be a huge comfort for us to know that out there in the world people know of us, and support us in what we’re doing. From deep underground we are calling for love and acceptance. It’d be nice to know that our voice broke through the surface, and that someone out there actually heard us.”
* * * * *
[UPDATE 1: "In the wake of [the] conversation on human sexuality started yesterday by the announcement of the Biola Queer Underground, Biola president Barry Corey released a letter concerning the continuation of that conversation shortly after 5 p.m.” For more in the Biola campus newspaper, see Biola Queer Underground promotes LGBTQ discussion on campus.]
[UPDATE to UPDATE 1 since it doesn't really qualify as its own update: From a source at Biola who would know: "This story has already been The Chimes (student newspaper's) most-viewed story in the lifespan of its website. The only other story to come close was that time last year when some guys in a dorm circulated a rumor that Justin Bieber had applied to our school (wish I was joking)."]
[UPDATE 3: From a comment left on this post, from LGBT-BJU: "Bob Jones University also has a growing network for former and current students. Our Twitter feed is here. A list of our allies among other Christian colleges who are also present on Twitter is here. Strength and courage to all LGBT people struggling with fundamentalism---as well as their supporters!"]
[UPDATE 4: Biola Queer Underground responds.]
[UPDATE 5: Someone who is not sympathetic to BQU's cause secured the domain name UndergroundBiola.com. I am deeply hopeful that whomever put up the (as of now single) post at that site is not a typical Biola student. Because if he or she is, then the standards of education at that school are so poor that I now fear for ... America, basically. Yikes, man. That cannot have been written by someone in college.]
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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http://biolaunderground.webs.com/ You can like them from here.
Sounds like Bob Jones!
Yep, we’re here, too!
See https://twitter.com/#!/LGBTBJU and http://lgbt-bju.org for more info.
They are in the “Biola Chimes” already
http://chimes.biola.edu/story/2012/may/09/biola-queer-underground-lgbtq/
I am going to be graduating with my B.A.’s soon and have considered Biola for my graduate school, but have been really apprehensive because they are so conservative, and I would not only be a woman studying theology, but also a woman who doesn’t quite conform to these “traditional” views. This just warms my heart to bursting to know that there are students who attend Biola that are willing to risk themselves in order to reach out and help those students who may be struggling due to the policies they enforce. You go Rainbow Christians!!!
I agree. What a powerful and true witness these students are for Christ in the world today! What vital work is the Holy Spirit pleased to that He should do through them! The Biola Queer Underground appears as a beacon of light to a beacon of light—the light of light shines forth here unto all the world. The strength, courage, and conviction of such as these—those so honored to have God’s glory be revealed in them—are a blessing to the world.
I forgot compassion: Make that “strength, courage, conviction, and compassion”!
I just want to commend the brave and amazing thing these students are doing! I hope they find love and support in their friends and family and turn Biola on its ear! Many blessings, Biola Queer Underground.
didn’t see a like button
Amen! Via con Dios!
Liked em!
Well done them!!!
I work in the Chaplaincy at Carleton University in Ottawa. It frustrates me when gay Christian students are afraid to use the services of the Chaplaincy because they might run into Christians there. I’m not frustrated with the students. I’m frustrated with the Christians that have given them this fear. And it infuriates me to see it drawn with such a wide brush at Biola.
Congratulations to the BQU. You are warriors for justice.
So brave of them. Recently, a gay Messiah student transferred out, due to harassment:http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/05/gay_student_to_transfer_out_sa.html
Biola Queer Underground, this is kind of random, but.. you guys ought to get your site (http://biolaunderground.webs.com/) onto Google. From the looks of it, you’d think THIS was the site for the Biola Queer Underground site presently (not that I suppose John should have any problem with that).
Right. I’ll be, like, the BQU annex.
You guys are soooo not alone. There are so many LGBT friends and straight allies at Council for Christian Colleges & Universities schools:http://www.soulforce.org/blog/a-letter-from-a-george-fox-university-student/
Good luck to you Biola Underground, and I wish you continued bravery and fortitude in your inhospitable surroundings. Please ignore the judgmental comments here and know that there are people who support you and accept you as you are, as there is not a thing wrong with you!
Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I think this is an article (and a blog) that many on this community would enjoy. I certainly enjoyed this person’s perspective on Tuesday’s election.
http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/22710725963/a-challenge-to-both-sides-of-the-amendment-one-debate
The title of the article was telling. Then I saw the author.
I think I’ve said before why I find these things so troubling. But I can’t express how hurt and frustrated and saddened it makes me feel.
Ok, Nathan. Let me talk to the article.
Calling bigotry bigotry is not calling the bigot (who is a bigot) evil, inhuman or stupid. It is not failing to try to understand the root causes of bigotry so one can educate said bigot. It is not even not loving the bigot or not treating the bigot how any of us would like to be treated, even if said bigot clearly isn’t going to return the favour.
Loving my enemy, yes. Denying I have an enemy only puts me in danger.
We need to be able to call bigotry what it is. Name it for what it is. And we don’t need people (who have shown they are willing to put “dialogue” with bigots over the safety of LBGT people) telling people not to do that.
All bigotry can be said to be done out of ignorance, out of a lack of understanding. All bigots, regardless of who they are prejudice against, may genuinely feel that they are going the right thing. Racists, sexists, anti-Semites, those who descriminate against the disabled. Slave owners obstensibly thought they were doing the best things for their slaves.
And if we can get past that (let’s face it) chosen ignorance, great. But if we can undo the legal and systematic discrimination without changing their minds, I’m all for that, too.
Because in the end, it isn’t about the bigots. It’s about the persecuted.
Justin and those like him (almost all the rest of his approach in the public eye being straight as far as I’ve seen) are SO preoccupied with saving the bigot, I think they forget they claim to speak for or in defence of the LBGT community. They seems to put us at risk and compromise our rights or full inclusion because they might be able to educate a bigot for the bigot’s sake.
Honestly, I think these people relate more to the bigots because they were them, they were in their place. And, maybe without realizing, they feel a greater call to save those bigots from their bigotry then to stand up for the people actually being persecuted.
The insanity of this, of course, is that in society – or the church in particular – those particular bigots are doing just fine. And the means out of their bigotry is right in front og them if they want it.
Those who are persecuted have no such advantage and no such choice. They not the protection – not their oppressors.
“Honestly, I think these people relate more to the bigots because they were them, they were in their place. And, maybe without realizing, they feel a greater call to save those bigots from their bigotry then to stand up for the people actually being persecuted.”
That’s an excellent point.
See the comment I wrote to DR below.
“All bigotry can be said to be done out of ignorance, out of a lack of understanding.”
How are you so sure, Christine? What makes you think it’s never done in full enough understanding of it out of a deep-seated drive to maintain control, power and privilege (and possibly to increase in them)? Why rush to judgment regarding its necessary general cause, rather than maintain a sufficiently open mind to evaluate individual instances potentially individually?
read: “All types of bigotry could be done…” I don’t know for sure. And I don’t mean to presume that there aren’t SOME people who do just as you describe. But I can’t think of any type of prejudice or bigotry where that couldn’t apply. There are also sufficient examples to suggest that some people with each type of prejudice do so out of ignorance.
I do suppose you’re right, Christine.
I think if you add in the question of lack of empathy and compassion, you get a reasonable statement. Bigotry arises from either a lack of information (not knowing what is actually going on), a lack of empathy (not being able to put yourself in the other person’s place), or a lack of compassion (not caring), or a combination of the three.
I do believe you’ve nailed it (yet again), Lymis!
Nathan it is awesome you ate here. I love it. I love that you’re still here even though you’ve been spoken too harshly it shows a commitment Ro Christ.
You’re not angry enough yet. Your heart hasn’t broken enough yet I’ve hear kids, over these people we’ve damaged in the name of Christ. You dot yet feel a father’s love -a mother’s love – a brother’s love for these people . For you this is all at a debate level still, just ideas though I think how real this all is is beginning to sink in.
Give yourself of getting truly angry. Have a moment that Jesus did, so enraged that he flipped tables. Allow your heart to get that broken for these people. It will make the difference.
I didn’t write the article. I just thought it was an interesting perspective from a gay Christian. I think the thing I enjoyed about the article (and really, about Justin’s blog in general) is that it reminded me that all gay Christians are not theologically liberal. After pursuing Justin’s website a bit, I felt quite “at home” with his theology. He’s the sort of guy that I’d love to sit and chat with about theology, philosophy, or the culture of Christian churches in the US.
And, related to this blog entry, *HE* is exactly the sort of person who would attend Biola. Hence, the need for an “underground” homosexual group there.
While I appreciate your viewpoints and John’s viewpoints, I am frequently uncomfortable with the “bashing” of traditional churches. (I attend one) I wasn’t at all uncomfortable with Justin’s descriptions. The church needs to change. I agree. But bashing it and poking fun at it isn’t the best way to go about it. Justin’s commentary was a great reminder of that.
People are literally dying because of the actions people are taking because they hold these views, Nathan. Families are being destroyed, children are going without insurance, people are losing their homes, spouses are being deported, people are being beaten and killed in the street, and gay teens are killing themselves, all because parts of the Church teach people that they are right to condemn gay people.
And your concern is that the theology is comfortable.
Are you listening to yourself? I can’t believe you are. This is not an intellectual issue for a lot of us. This is our lives, our families, our health, our children, our jobs, our homes.
We don’t have the option of being comfortable.
I’m glad you’re all warm and fuzzy and can content yourself with the knowledge that you’ve found a pet gay person who reinforces your own views. I’m not going to open the door to the rage that what you’re saying brings up for me.
You have it wrong. Very, very, very wrong.
Lymis, you’re right. It is at an “intellectual” issue, not an “emotional” issue for me. I don’t have a lot of gay friends (in fact, only really a couple – through Facebook – none in my “real” life). Intellectually you (and others) have “converted” me to largely your way of thinking. But that’s probably about as far as it will go. You probably are not going be be able to “convert” me to be a zealot. I attend a traditional, conservative Christian church. My friends and family are mostly conservative Christians. I live a “sheltered” life by your standards. I think it is unrealistic that you should expect me to somehow jump down the throats of those “misguided” people that I care about and respect. I’m one voice. I’ll speak up for what is right – but I’m not going to turn against my friends and fellow Christians over this issue.
Change within the church on this issue, unfortunately, will be gradual. (but inevitable) I’m hoping that it can happen INSIDE the evangelical churches – without tearing them apart. I’ll stand up for the injustice I see in my immediate surroundings. But I’m not ready to become a zealot or a martyr for this. I’ll stand up for what’s right – but I’m certainly not willing to step away from or turn against my church community. It would be a completely different story if I saw that actions of my church were actively oppressing homosexuals. You can call me blind, but I just don’t see that.
Then, please, keep your eyes open. Because chances are extremely good that they are, if only by encouraging people to vote for anti-gay measures.
And again, I invite you to consider the story of the Good Samaritan, and who it was the Jesus approved of. The people who saw someone in need and walked to the other side of the road because they didn’t cause it and their friends weren’t involved and nobody in their church did it weren’t the ones that Jesus said were doing the right thing.
Its heartbreaking that you would characterize those who are outraged over abuse, vocalizing that and trying to stop it as “zealots”. That actually makes me feel like I got punched in the stomach.
Nathan, here’s what I think is going on. You want to find a place where no one is mad at you, where everybody likes you. Where you don’t have to deal with pain. You’ll be here, doing lots of engaging but stopping short when something feels too threatening. You can just walk away rom the computer. And you’ll be in your church where if this comes up, you might just dance around the issue lightly and “agree to disagree” then get waffles with everybody after church.
Because in the end, it’s about you maintaining “you” and your family. Maintaining your identity, maintaining the safe environment of the conservative church you go to for your kids. Maintaining your friendships. Not going too far where you might lose any of that security. Jesus is a courageous pursuit of truth, but when things start feeling threatening, you bail. Then He is just a lifestyle .
A lot of us have been just where yiu are and had people call us out just like you are getting called out. When you’re ready to lose everything for the sake of Christ – including the identity and safety your surroundings – your friends – your understanding of good and bad – then your heart will break for those the church has abused beyond recognition. But only until then and know that while it’s great you are here, there’s no ttolerance for Christians who want to stay in the middle while people are being abused by your theology in the name of God.
It would not be reasonable to expect that, kids are in real trouble . You’re speaking to abuse survivors. To watch you just kind of casually bat a few ideas around, reducing their experience to just “disagreements over theology” is tough to swallow. I’m sure you understand.
I’m so fascinated that you continue to call this “bashing”. It is so much more reflective of your own issues with your loyalty to your beliefs vs righteous anger and abuse and oppression, Nathan. That’s the point I’m trying to make to you! But we get these things over time, it takes a while.
And of course there are gay men and women who are conservative. There are gay men and women who are virgins. There are gay men and women who speak in tongues. There are gay men and women who are criminals. There are gay men and women who are atheists. There are gay men and women in ((insert area of life or belief system here)).
There are gay men and women *everywhere*. Being gay does not mean you’re a Liberal. Being gay does not mean you don’t believe in God. Being gay is like having blue eyes or blonde hair. The comparison stops there.
I’m mainly refering to comments that John makes now and then. Here’s something he wrote just yesterday:
“I can’t help it if people who live in fear of their own sexuality, or people who are so lazy they won’t read for themselves, or people who are so cognitively challenged they simply prefer having someone think their most important thoughts for them, have come to “believe” that God finds homosexual love a moral abomination. But that conviction is so mind-bogglingly stupid, and so murderously toxic…”
Those “murderously toxic” people are my friends, and my family, and my wife that he is talking about. I call that “bashing”. Maybe you don’t.
Maybe he’s right. But I’m not going to leave my community over this issue. That’s absurd. Rather, I’ll do what I can to stand up for what’s right WITHIN my community.
It’s bashing because it’s people you love . It is bashing because all of that is you. It wouldn’t be bashing of John was describing the Westboro church.
I TOTALLY get it. I went through it! I was deeply offended that the people accusing my community refused to see them, to see the whole of them. Of us. To really know us. But I realized how demanding I was, I realized I was insisting gay men and women see me as I saw myself. I refused to see myself through their eyes.
Thank God He have me the Grace to open my eyes to the courage that was required to admits how insistent I was to be spoken to with kindness. And that’s when I allowed the Truth to start speaking.
When you’re ready to accept responsibility for what we have done – for what you have done – for what your friends and your wife have done, what we have all allowed to go unchanged and unchallenged – you won’t feel bashed anymore because it’s not about you anymore. Xoxo
That’s a great observation, DR.
Can I add, too, that in the vast majority of cases, it is “insisting gay men and women see me as I (see) myself” and refusing “to see myself through their eyes” while at the same time categorically refusing to make any effort to see gay people through their own eyes?
The knee-jerk “you don’t know us, and you are condemning us with too broad a brush” is particularly and spectacularly ironic coming from people who refuse to even consider the basic realities of being gay as experienced by gay people.
Yes, that was the other side of that coin. I’m so glad you mentioned it.
Lymis, it’s hard for me to imagine what it must be like to be on the other side of these comments as a gay man. I can’t tell you how much I learn from your thoughts and perspective and I’m so glad you’re here despite what it must be like at times. Thank you for hanging in with us here.
And of course you should stay in community dude. But it might be tough.
Nathan: You’ve taken that statement of mine out of its context. I said that I write what I do in response to those who “have come to ‘believe’ that God finds homosexual love a moral abomination.” If I understand correctly, that does not describe you. But you’re saying it DOES describe your friends, family, and wife—that they do find homosexual love reprehensible? If so, it must be difficult for you, to have an opinion about such an important theological, moral, and social issue that’s so radically different than those around you.
Well, do you equate “moral abomination” with “sin”? From my readings, you do. As such, then yes, most of my family and fellow-church members fall into the category you named.
Certainly none of my family or fell0w church-members are picketing, protesting, or “actively” suppressing the gay community. But I would guess that 80% or more of them would view homosexuality as a sin and most would vote against gay marriage. On the other hand, only a small fraction of them would say that homosexual activity is a “moral abomination” or “reprehensible”. So I don’t know whether my family and faith community would fall under your “murderously toxic” category or not. You tell me.
Yes, they do.
The belief itself that being gay is unholy has created the exact environment in which we all find ourselves ,within which the GLBTA community is oppressed and abused. Our beliefs are the root of that and we work hard as a Church to maintain it ( over 80% of Evangelical churches refuse to allow gay men and women in leadership positions within the church and make other elders sign a declaration of being against same sex relationships, or they can be elders.
We are responsible for the experience of gay men and women and we are responsible for ensuring that these beliefs we as Christians have held have made their way into the educational and legal system ( for many years, gay men and women were not allowed to teach in public schools). We continue to believe that our Christian definition of marriage is the universal definition of marriage (even for non-christians) and we vote people in who support it.
It’s a distinction without a difference. I think it’s safe to say that on the 1-10 Morally Offensive Sin scale–where, say, raping a child is a 10–your people would rate homosexual sex as a 9, or 8 at lowest. And I think that safely puts it within the “moral abomination” range.
And that makes it murderous, insofar as so many young (and older, certainly) gay people are driven by bullying/hatred/societal condemnation to suicide.
That’s an awfully presumptuous statement. Have you visited my church? Do you know my family?
There’s an awful lot of sins that are spoken of from the pulpit and in classrooms. Greed, gossip, pride, etc. I’ve never heard a mention of homosexuality except in casual conversation among people. I, frankly, have no idea what “number” category most would put it in. (Frankly, most evangelical churches have moved beyond putting sins in a “number category”. Sin is sin. Are we in 5th grade here?)
Seriously now: What is your advice to people in churches like mine? You (and others) on this website so often ask me to put myself in their shoes. Now: Put yourself in my shoes. I’m ready to agree that homosexuality isn’t a sin. But I’m not going to leave my church over this. People disagree over sins all the time. I’m in a loving, vibrant, and growing community who happens to be misguided on a couple issues. You call it “murderously toxic”. So be it. Who ISN’T misguided on some issues?
Nathan: “There’s an awful lot of sins that are spoken of from the pulpit and in classrooms. Greed, gossip, pride, etc.” The difference, Nathan, is that those are things people DO. Being gay is something people ARE. Massive, massive difference.
Anyway, I’m not banging on you personally, at all. I don’t know you. I’m glad you’ve changed your mind on the gay thing; that’s awesome. But I don’t think you should leave your church, or anything like that. If anything, I’d prefer you didn’t leave. I’m hopeful that, since you’re there, and you have a different perspective on this issue, that in thoughtful, real conversations with the people in your life and at your church, you’ll present your ideas to them, and … talk will happen. I’m all for that, always. The kind of change we’re talking about here can only happen one person at a time. You seem like exactly the kind of person, in exactly the kind of place, who can help to gently bring people to what I think is fuller, more God-centered place relative to the relationship between Christians and LGBTQ people.
One step at a time, Nathan.
Here are some thoughts. Enact them as you feel both able and willing. (Warning: Wall of Text Ahead)
1) Get your hands (if you haven’t already) on a book called “UnChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity…and Why It Matters” by David Kinnaman (turns out he’s a graduate of Biola University–I didn’t know that until now) and Gabe Lyons. This book drove me crazy because it comes from a more conservative viewpoint than my own. But it discusses how Christians are seen by those outside the faith. And it’s not flattering. Christians are seen by those outside the faith (and honestly, some of us within the faith) as: a) Hypocritical; b) Too focused on getting converts; c) Antihomosexual; d) Sheltered; e) Too political; f) Judgmental. Again, what drove me crazy about this book was that the writers provided very objective information about how Christians come across to those outside the faith–but seemed to want to hold on to their old attitudes and behaviors without having to face the consequences of refusing to change, especially on homosexuality. Still, the book gives a wider perspective to how the antihomosexual attitudes are a result of a larger sickness within Christianity.
2) Look into the possibility of having a bible study on the verses that seem to condemn homosexuality. The one that I took was “Claiming the Promise: An Ecumenical Welcoming Bible Study Resource on Homosexuality” (Edited by Mary Jo Osterman.) This study is through the Reconciling Ministries Network, which is a United Methodist resource, but I’m sure there are other similar resources through other denominations–United Church of Canada, Mormons, Baptists, Brethren/Mennonite, Disciples of Christ, Episcopal, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholic, United Church of Christ (these are denominations listed at the back of my workbook from the above mentioned class.)
Anyway, these are my suggestions. And I’d rather see you take tiny steps forward on this issue than have you take too much on at once, get overwhelmed or discouraged, and quit.
Who is asking you to leave your church?
If you knew that one of your friends was inadvertently carrying a fatal disease – that he was a carrier and didn’t have any symptoms – and had no idea of how sick he was making those vulnerable to catching it, wouldn’t you do anything you could to protect the people from him?
That’s what this is. You need to see this belief for what it is – a virus – and make people aware of it. And it’s going to be hard, people will fight you. They’ll be suspicious of you. They’ll accuse you of being a fake Christian. You’re going to offend them. But isn’t that all worth it so another gay kid doesn’t kill himself?
When you frankly Nathan, get over yourself a little bit and stop choosing to be offended that people are using strong language (that is accurately reflecting the damage we do to the GLBT community), the decisions you need to make will be very clear.
Thanks Diane and DR. I was being facetious about leaving the church. Obviously I’m not doing that. I was saying that somewhat sarcastically in response to my offence at John’s statement that my friends and family have “murderously toxic” beliefs. Misguided and poorly reasoned? Yes. Murderously toxic? I think (hope) that is a bit of hyperbole.
Diane, I like your idea of reading “Unchristian”. My wife has read it and highly recommended it to me, but I never got around to reading it. I’ll make that a priority.
I need to keep thinking and praying through my own beliefs. I’ve definitely come around to believing that these constitutional amendments against gay marriage are nothing but hateful. They have no place in the church. I also have definitely come around to believe that condemnation of homosexuality has no place in the church. That’s up to an individual to work out. But my views are still “evolving” (sorry for the pun!) about how to interpret the verses in Romans and how I would react if an open homosexual were to try to step up to a leadership role in my church. It’s a process.
Don’t get me wrong, I do feel badly for the suicide rate among gay youth. That’s horrible. But what is more horrible to me is what the hurtful and arrogant attitude of Christians about this issue has done for the broader message of the gospel. We’re supposed to be the BODY of Christ – his hands and feet here on Earth. The message we spread is GOOD NEWS — but instead, the message we have given (on this issue) is hurtful and has made many, many people (gay and strait) turn and run away from the truth of Christ’s work for us. That’s the biggest tragedy in my opinion.
Nathan, ask a gay kid who got thrown out of his loving Christian home due to “tough love” for his “decision to be gay” who gets raped on the streets if your belief is “murderously to xic”.
Ask my friend Kendall who was asked to leave her church position when they found out she was gay, The tutoring program she created where over 200 kids who needed help were getting it? Gone. And that was a mainstream church.
Here’s a question I dare you to ask yourself honestly. To what degree will you allow your others to decine who you are? Who hour wife is? To what degree will you allow the impact and that of our church to define what you are? What we are? What your belief is?
To what degree are you willing to give that power away? This is about control. And when we are in relationship with Jesus, that’s the first thing we are called to give up.
@John
Being greedy is also something people are though (and one could say the same of being prideful, etc.).
Of course, the sin comes in greedy people’s tendency to DO greedy things. However, one could likewise argue, as most fundamentalists do, that the sin comes in gay people’s tendency to do gay things (namely: sex).
It doesn’t really matter (and good luck trying to solidly establish) to what varying extent being greedy and being gay would be “choices” (whatever that really means anyway).
What matters is the spirit which directs one’s actions. A spirit of greed is not a spirit of love. Sex, however—gay, straight, or otherwise—can be performed with a heart of love, or without. “Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.” (1 John 4:16)
@Nathan (and Nathan, thank *you* for being here. You’re taking a lot of heat and this is a huge thing to process. I don’t say this a lot on the forum, but I’m praying for you, I’m praying that the reason the Holy Spirit led you here will be realized. No matter how frustrated I get with you, now or in the future, know the core beneath that is an acknowledgement that just because I may be in a different place with all of this now, I am saying all of this to myself just as much as to you. We’re in this together.
Nathan, here’s the deal.
My guess is that at least a large percentage of these same people would probably say that being Jewish, and staying Jewish after having been exposed to the Gospel, is “wrong” or may send someone to hell or some other variation on disapproving of it.
And yet, again, my guess is that those same people would never dream of voting to pass constitutional amendments making it illegal for Jewish people to marry, or to support barring them from the military, or making it legal for employers to fire someone for being Jewish, or to refuse to rent apartments to Jewish people, or to keep Jewish people from adopting. My guess would be that they would say that while it’s wrong, it’s none of their business, and that other people’s religious choices don’t affect them.
That’s where the difference lies. Not in the disapproval. In taking it active, and turning that disapproval into active social oppression.
Great point there, Lymis!
This is so spot on perfect.
By the way, my dad graduated from Biola. I graduated from another Christian university, not quite so conservative as Biola. But certainly not “friendly” to homosexuals, unfortunately.
Nathan, what John said was that the *conviction* was mind-bogglingly toxic, not the people.
One thing that I think might help you out here is the difference between talking about the effects of actions and making judgments about people. I have no doubt that there were lots of kind and loving people who, say, voted for Amendment One. There was probably at least one person who stopped to cast that vote on their way home from dropping off a big donation at a food bank or volunteering at a homeless shelter. But the fact that they are, overall, good people, doesn’t negate the harm of that specific action. And someone who doesn’t know each and every one of them personally has no way of knowing how many people voted that way because they were sincerely trying to do the right thing, and how many people did it out of hatred. It may not even really matter (except to them and the people who interact with them, and to God).
Good people can believe evil things or toxic things. Good people can make horrible, harmful decisions for whatever reason. But if we give people a pass on harmful behavior because they’re otherwise good people, then we have to ignore tons of harmful actions. And people are never all good or all bad. We’re all both fallen and screwed up *and* made in the image of God.
Nathan, I’ll speak to the article as well.
Justin makes what I see is a very common mistake, which is to deliberately gloss over the meaning of the words prejudice and bigotry.
He says people who voted to write anti-gay discrimination into their state Constitution aren’t bigots or prejudiced, no, not at all. They are merely ignorant or uneducated and have a lack of understanding. and werehonestly trying to do the right thing.
But that’s missing the point in some pretty huge ways. That’s what bigotry and prejudice are. Making fundamental judgements about other people without actually knowing anything about them is prejudice. Choosing to take action deliberately designed to hurt someone else because you don’t like who they are is bigotry.
And, especially today, especially on gay rights, there comes a point where not knowing the truth is a deliberate choice. This is no longer a brand new concept, one that it is completely unfamiliar, when there is no real opportunity to actually learn the truth, meet the affected people, get a different perspective, and make your choices based on the truth.
A generation or so ago, you could make a reasonable case that the truth wasn’t available, that the stereotypes and misinformation was all people had available to them to base their decisions on. You simply cannot make that case now. Anyone who does not know the other side, doesn’t know about gay lives, doesn’t know how these laws are hurting actual people, can only “not know” by a deliberate, almost herculean, act of will. They have to stand in the world with their fingers in their ear shouting “La,la,la,la,la” at the top of their lungs.
There may – and only may – be some excuse for saying “I don’t know anything about this, and I don’t want to, and so I will avoid the whole issue and leave these people alone.” Even that is pretty cowardly and unChristian in the face of the pain and suffering LGBT people are experiencing – the Gospel doesn’t look kindly on the people who left the assaulted man lying in the dirt waiting for the Samaritan.
But there is no longer, if there ever was, any justification for saying “I don’t know anything about this, and I don’t want to, and so I will actively hurt other people while making every effort to avoid understanding their side of the story.”
That isn’t “honestly trying to do the right thing.” That is deliberately choosing not to become informed enough to know what the right thing is.
When you believe an untruth, that may or may not be sinful. But when the truth is readily available and you continue to believe and spread the untruth, it is. The lies about LGBT people are not only common and being willfully spread, the fact that they are lies is just as widely available, and the people spreading the lies know that, and don’t care. And the people who listen to the lies know that, too.
Reread the piece. He calls it “a challenge to both sides” but somehow never gets around to challenging the people who voted for the Amendment. He challenges the people who are victimized to understand that the people who went out of their way to hurt their neighbors are really nice human beings who don’t know any better. But somehow he forgets to tell the anti-gay people that their challenge is to stop hurting people because of easily refuted lies.
He starts from the premise that people don’t like to be called bigots or prejudiced, and announces that the answer is for people to stop calling them that, while somehow ignoring the far more important idea that if people don’t want to be called bigots, the should simply stop being bigots.
Yes.
Nathan, bigotry is bigotry. It’s institutionalized so we don’t have to name it very specifically, often, it’s what happens when people side-eye one another when a gay man gets on an elevator. It’s why gay men and women can’t rent an apartment sometimes when it’s discovered they are gay. It’s the whispers and the innuendo and it’s the “just stopping short” of saying what one is thinking in order to be “kind”.
All of that is stemming from this theology. That’s where all of this started and now it’s woven into our legal and educational systems. Many of us bigots. Period. It’s time to start facing who we are and calling it what it is.
That’s perfect, Lymis. Exactly.
But maybe what Nathan relates (and correct me here if I’m wrong) is that you don’t see the people around you (who you are pretty sure would view homosexual acts – or even the orientation itself – as sinful) as being the passice people Lymis describes. The ones who don’t know, don’t want to know and so try to stay the hell out of it – but WOULD probably vote against equal rights.
John’s quote and pretty much everyone else here (myself included) are still calling those people bigots (btw, John called the conviction “muderously toxic”, not the people). And you want them distinguished between people with bad theology and the people who are the real haters. You want to make that distinction and we don’t. Am I right?
Sorry – should have been that you DO see them as the passive version.
Generally that’s right. I’d agree with your summary of my thoughts. The ONE distinction that I will make is that Christians that *I* have spoken with don’t view homosexual ORIENTATION as sinful, but rather homosexual SEX. I can only speak for the few evangelical churches I have attended over the past 10 years.
Thanks for pointing out that “murderously toxic” was referring to the conviction, not to the people. I didn’t pick up on that distinction.
I guess I found it rather contemptuous that he was calling my faith-community “murderously toxic”. But now I see that I was making an inaccurate inference about his words.
Nathan: thanks … cuz, right: I’m always extremely careful to make the distinction between what people believe and who they are. I get to judge the former (I think we’re all morally obliged to call foul when we see it), but of course never the latter.
Nathan, I think a lot of people try to get away from the implications of anti-gay theology by making that distinction, but I don’t think they really grasp what they’re asking of people. (I’m sure God calls some people to lifelong celibacy, but I don’t think it’s someone else’s job to proclaim that every gay person is called to that.)
Cool. Then I get it.
I think for me, bigots come in many colours. A “bigot” is someone who is prejudiced and I can’t, no matter how anyone spins it, see the view that I’m geared towards sin in a way that other people are not, is not prejudice.
But there are bigots I love. There are bogots I even LIKE! Sometimes I don’t even WANT to like them (because it makes it hurt more) but I can’t help it, they are, in everything else, perfectly wonderful people. Which completely boggles my mind! I don’t understand it – gosh darn it, I’ve been trying – but I can’t deny it.
And there’s nothing wrong with loving or liking bigots. In fact, it’s great – UNTIL it in any way interferes with our fight for justice for those those are persecuted and descriminated against by them (that persecution and descrimination comes in many forms, not just attack adds and protests) – UNTIL we prioritize the bigots over the disadvantaged.
Again, the bigots are doing just fine. They have all the priviledge. We have to fight for the underdog. It doesn’t mean changing any of your core theology. It just means that on this issue, you recognize that justice and compassion trump a particular reading of bible. It just means seeing the injustice and harm in a particular interpretations and realizing that if there are other valid interpretations that don’t violate the main themes of scripture and the teachings of Jesus, then those other interpretations are more likely to be the right ones.
On what you can do… I have a friend, of my parents generation, who attending my old fundie church with me for many years. They were “higher ups”, so to speak. Apparently, she and her husband always supported gay people and their freedom to choose to be in a relationship (the theology behind it was weird in case, but not the point). I never knew until many years later when I can out. She was very supportive to my now wife in particular, they are very close. She even encouraged my wife’s parents to accept our relationship.
But I can’t even IMAGINE how much better it would have been for me to know that even one person there (particularly someone so respected) believed that. What a difference it could have made.
Now, we didn’t have an environment where anyone could question anything, but eventually we all got kicked out for questioning things in the end it was that bad, so keeping quiet never did us any good.
You have a chance to make a difference right where you are. Take it.
I wouldn’t say a bigot is necessarily a someone who’s prejudiced. A bigot might hold a reasoned opinion (political, theological, etc.) which, while intolerant of any other worldview, need not manifest in judgment of their neighbors (even those with whom they disagree). (And of course not all prejudices constitute bigotry either, but that’s another matter.)
jk
I am of the opinion that it behooves us to take care in our use of such words, lest they either confound our audience or lose distinction of meaning. And I am enough of a bigot to tell you that, with no real intention of listening to you persuade me otherwise; so don’t bother.
Yes, I do mean a certain TYPE of prejudice. Against people, for starters – not like having descriminating taste in wine…
Wait, did you say there are bigots who are NOT prejudiced…? Yeah, we’re using different definitions.
Well, having reviewed several formal definition, it would seem that our difference in understandings of the word—between definitions incorporating the necessity of prejudice and ones focused on intolerance—exists even among respected dictionaries.
However, under your interpretation, then certainly *not* everyone who’s against gay marriage, for example, is a bigot—even if they help further the bigotry of others—because one does not necessarily have to act prejudicially in resolving so to construct (or give support to the pre-existing structure of) the institution of marriage as a cross-gendered partnership. (It may be unjustly biased, but that is not the same as prejudiced.)
Moreover, we all have preconceived notions we carry around with us, and almost all of us can be a bit intolerant about them, to varying degrees at various time; so, it seems to me, we generally restrict such words to cases in the extreme.
I should add that most of us are sympathetic to the “different shades of bigot” part, even if it doesn’t always seem like it, because most of us used to be there ourselves.
And we still jump at the slightest hint of someone genuinely interested in being educated on the issue. We have to hold ourselves back enough to not get our hopes up too high we’re that hung up on being accepted. It’s hard. It’s, well, exhausting.
It’s the beliefs that are both murderous and toxic as well as the massive amount of money, time, effort and organization that foes into ensuring these beliefs have dominion.
What is also murderous and toxic is the passivity of those of us who think we aren’t living every word of the above sentence when we try to say this is about gay sex instead of being gay. We are even more dangerous because we have the capacity to reason, to think and to stop this from moving forward yet we just don’t care about it enough to let it move us into action. We’re focused on our own kids, our own lives.
We use our theology words and “Well God is a mystery, who can understand it?” as we play both sides of the fence to make sure neither side is angry with us. It’s all just ideas and then we go home and watch American Idol.
We do nothing because we are cowards. We are the dangerous ones.
Jim Rigby had this on his blog today:
“I believe the unconscious root of all forms of prejudice to be a sense of entitlement and a belief that “difference” means “less than.” In other words, when I unconsciously think of my group as the model for all humankind, I will either attack those who are different, or try to cast them in my own group’s image. And when we are bigoted against another type of person, we usually have no sense of our own presumption. It just feels like we are looking at the world from a higher vantage point. We are simply reading the text the way God intended it. Those who disagree obviously don’t care about scripture as we do. We, of course, humbly realize that we are sinners too. But because we are sorrier for our sins than others are, it is our duty to serve as referee for the rest of the species. Because our sense of privilege is invisible to us, any effort to describe what we are doing feels like an humiliating insult. So, if anyone steps in to defend our target, we view ourselves as the real victims.”
Best description I’ve seen yet.
That’s a wonderful description. Thanks for sharing it.
One of the things I so often see on all moral issues (and morally adjacent, and often, morally neutral) is that it is so easy to look at things in terms of “The only reason I would personally do this thing is because of this reason, and therefore, nobody else could possibly do it for any other reason, and I can judge them based on those standards.”
Especially on LGBT issues, you see people insisting that gay behavior be judged, not as the equivalent straight behavior, but as though it was straight people doing something counter to their own orientation.
As always, Lymis, thank you so very much. I feel this need to jump in – but you and Diana and DR and others are saying everything I’d have said and more.
This has been an interesting week – a woman I’ve known since our teenagers were toddlers, an African American woman who is also a local news reporter, asked on her FB wall for people’s thoughts on Obama’s statement this week. I was literally bowled over by some of the comments from African Americans who say they will now vote against him – even though they support him in every other way. And no matter what I said or how I said it, they absolutely do not, in any way, see their religious belief that gays are doomed if they act upon their sexuality, ever, as bigotry. Nope. Not bigotry. God’s very clear, cut and dried word – how could that be discrimination? It totally and completely wore me out. And somehow, their inability to equate it to the oppression their own relatives suffered in this same country, oppression that was oft justified with Bible verses, just made my heart hurt. I did my best, but pretty sure I didn’t change a single heart. I didn’t “bash,” I just talked. But . . . the woman who originally asked for our “thoughts” on the matter messaged me privately to reiterate how I obviously didn’t understand God’s word. I was totally taken aback. :::::::sigh:::::::::
Mindy, my wife was just pointing out to me the other day actually that, while all this talk is going on in white America over these issues (gay marriage, LGBT/queer rights, etc.), we really do need to be engaging the African American community on this more.
Now, it seems to me that many of the older and more highly educated African Americans recognize this—in its parallels to issues in their own history—as the basic civil rights issue that it really is. Sadly, however, many do not share their informed perspective or their critical thinking: while younger white Americans are more likely than there parents to be accepting of gays/lesbians/etc., younger African Americans seem to me perhaps even be more hostile than the generation before them (but of course—and again, sadly, and perhaps one of the contributing factors to the tendency to overlook this matter—they do not show up in the same numbers to vote their opinions into law or into office [or involve themselves to the same extent on average in other civic matters such as petitioning or protesting]).
I guess my point was that I applaud your efforts in engaging with the African American community on this, Mindy, and I wish we could find more effective ways of doing so.
http://www.holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com
This blog follows issues of gay rights, including in the African American community.
The lady I posted about a couple of days ago who works in our grocery is black. Her church as a whole is definitely anti-gay and has even gone so far as to put up a statue of Liberty several stories tall with tears streaming down her face because of sinful Americans like gay people.
(This loony thing has to be seen to be believed. If I were younger I would be tempted to vandalize it by spray-painting it in rainbow colors. http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/07/04/us/05libertyCA01ready.html )
Anyway it does appear that my speaking to her has borne fruit. I saw her again today and she volunteered that she has a young relative who is a drag queen and she doesn’t like the way the family has been treating him and will make an effort to reach out to him. So… yay!
Glad to hear this, Allie! Thanks for the update, and thanks be to God for the work He does through you!
That statue of liberty’s dress is SUCH a drab color though, imho… I really do think she could use a rainbow repaint!!
You are fabulous.
I am so exhausted and demoralized by Christians. I swear if it weren’t for this community I’d never interact with them again.
One Wheaton is also trying to catch up with you, Biola guys:https://www.facebook.com/JohnShoreFans?ref=ts#!/onewheaton
Thank God they can have community in the midst of that oppressive environment! I am sorry they cannot be out and free to be themselves. All of us are children of God made in God’s image. We, the church must love as our example, Jesus, loves – and that means unconditionally. They will be in my prayers every day.
@kelly and lymis. Hmm, those are some pretty judgmental statements. I thought I was the only one doing that here. Is that how this needed “conversation” goes? You sound exactly like the kind of Christians your attacking in here. How unsurprising.
@ John Shore: Thomas /Andy /etc has been blocked –correct? Because “student ” sounds suspiciously like him.
I think this is a different person. For one thing, Andy/Thomas/Frank was always going on about “rewriting scripture” and his obsession with telling “where God blesses same-sex unions in scripture.” I don’t recall him playing the martyr so much, saying “You’re being just as judgmental as you say I am.”
I agree with Melody, but it’s understandable how they all seem to start sounding a lot alike after a while.
Yeah, it is true…they all do tend to sound alike after awhile.
Aww. Cute. Nice try, though.
Don’t be ridiculous, no one here is judging “just like” these students. These students are telling gay men and women that they are condemned to hell for a part of themselves they cannot change.
They (you) are being treated like a grown up. People are furious with you or the impact you have on gay men and women and they are treating you like a grown up and telling you that directly to your face.
Get some emotional maturity to face the consequences of your choices (you can look to the gay men and women who survive you as inspiration).
If you don’t like that I find it arrogant to assume you know more about someone’s life and struggles than they do, that’s fine. But nowhere did I say you were a bad person, or going to hell, or that an inherent unchangeable part of you is a sin against God.
Great. Go to a conservative Christian college, hide in the closet, have a lousy social life, be unable to participate fully in campus activities. Want to do something good & sane & healthy for yourself? Transfer.
that’s not always a viable option, for some, pressure from parents who are only willing to pay for a school like Biola keeps them there, for others, especially juniors and seniors, transferring would mean needing to take extra semesters or even years of school because units don’t always transfer.
furthermore, if schools like Biola are ever to change, it will be through students and actions like these. On their website, on the contact us page, there is a video of a speech by Harvey Milk. I recommend watching it. The main point is that LGBTQ people who find themselves in oppressive environments can either move away to more accepting ones, or they can stay where they are and fight for a more just society.
@matthew
Comparing a gay biola student to Christ is pretty silly. No context whatsoever. Someone wasn’t going to their theology 1 classes.
Yes, how unbiblical. It’s not like Jesus ever said he was anything like the poor, the sick, the homeless or the naked, or that treating the least of your brothers badly had anything to do with Him.
Who needs that refresher?
Thanks, Lymis.
Christ has descended to the lowest depths and ascended to the highest heavens, that he might fill all things.
He said, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”
If my Lord thinks it worthwhile to specifically point out that he’s telling me the truth, I’m going to take that pretty seriously, and literally. For who am I to say my friend who tells me he’s gay is not indeed my very Lord and Savior putting my faith in the true Word—the Word which became flesh and dwells eternally among us—to the test?
Now, the context, which I think was sufficiently clear, is that Christ too kept who he really was on the down low until the time was right—which is to say, doing so is not any clear sign of sinfulness (unless you think it’s also sinful to be God).
@melody
No one says they aren’t loved. And we are absolutely called to judge behavior, not people. If I am convinced someone is in error and I ignore it because I “love” them, is that love? A few of my closest friends are gay, two of them ex biola students. I love them. And we talk about these things but they know where I stand and I hope that at some point they can have a clearer understanding of sin and recognize that a man and a woman’s marital relationship is a picture of the Gospel and the church being the bride. Just because a person feels a certain way doesn’t make it right. Sometimes I have feelings of rage and sometimes I have feelings of jeolousy. But I take those things before god and he is always sanctifying our minds and hearts.
Kind of arrogant to assume that you know more about it than they do, isn’t it? And rather cruel to treat the desire to love and be loved as the same as anger or jealousy.
While you are taking the beliefs and feelings that you have before God, how about bouncing this homophobia off Him? The results might surprise you.
I hope that your friends find better friends. It would be wonderful if one of them was you.
An “error” has objective measure. What you really mean is a sin, and the only measure you have of it is your interpretation of what it says in the Good Book, with which interpretation others rightfully disagree, and in which book there are others who do not believe.
When it comes to things like this, the Bible seems pretty clear: Do not judge; do not condemn. You want to use such a measure? Then know that the same will be used against you in the end: Have you checked how well you measure up to the Qur’an recently? Or against *my* understanding of the Bible?
And how are you to judge another’s behavior(s) and tell me you are not judging them? Does the justice system not convict a person when handing down a guilty verdict?
Perhaps you’ve misunderstood what God gave you a conscience is for: it should be plenty busy simply telling you what is wrong for *you*. I would leave another’s conscience to be their guide.
Yes, there is a placing for judgment: but this place is our dealings in the world, on an objective basis, and it has no place in the life of, at least my own, faith (at least, not until the world to come).
(Jeez, what is with my using too many letters today? Usually I tend to err on the side of *dropping* words/affixes/letters. But today it seems I’ve been consistently *adding* them [in ways that spellchecking doesn't catch]. Sorry for any increased difficulty in making sense of me today [I probably should get more sleep
].)
We are all the Bride, men AND women, in that picture, so it’s particularly silly to use it as an excuse to limit marriage to a man and a woman.
When did you choose to have feelings for the opposite sex? Did those feelings cause you to want to kill yourself because your “good friends” who represent God told you they were an abomination but as hard as you tried, you couldnt change them?
How dare you set yourself up as a friend and a support to these precious children that God loves. Here’s a bucket of reality – gay men and women are barely surviving your “kindness”. A lot of gay kids don’t, they go into despair and kill themselves.
As a fellow Christian I am begging you, please just stay away from gay men and women. Please just leave them alone.
The Bride thing is a ANALOGY! Ack!
An analogy is taking a simple, common-place and easily understood concept and using it to explain something complicated.
The simple thing used for comparison was the marriages all around them. It is saying: Look at this really complicated thing – the relationship of Christ to the Church. It will be easier if you just think about it like your own marriage. Think St. Patrick explaining the trinity with the three-leaf clovers.
Now, the first analogy doesn’t say ANYTHING fundamental about the characteristics of all marriages. It’s using what marriage looked like for those people to help them understand the DIFFICULT concept. The point of the analogy is not to explain anything about marriage, but to explain the relationship of Christ and Church.
Saying that analogy means all marriages must be between one man and one woman is like saying four-leaf clovers are heresy.
“A few of my closest friends are gay, two of them ex biola students. I love them. And we talk about these things but they know where I stand…”
And clearly, your interpretation of this is that you are right, and they agree with you and since you are right, they are willing to continue to be your friends even though you know this awful thing about that you are willing to put up with for the sake of the friendship in the hopes that they will see the light and change.
Has it ever occurred to you that they feel the same way? That it is your failing that they know about and are overlooking for the sake of the friendship in the hope that you will eventually understand the truth and get over yourself?
I had friends like that. Thank God for them.
Good for you. This is incredibly brave, and I pray God watches over you and helps you make a positive change in your school.
If there’s anything tangible we can do for you, please let us know. (Like, we could totally put together a care package of LGBT-affirming religious books, supplies for posters/flyers/whatever, and homemade cookies with rainbow sprinkles. That’s probably totally cheesy and proves that I’m old, huh?)
Totally with you Kelly. I have kids just their age. One of my sons is gay and my husband and I support him completely. If these kids need surrogate/supportive/cookie-baking adults to love them and cheer them on, I’m in. Rainbow sprinkles and all.
Lots of ((((Hugs)))) to you, brave Biola Underground!
Of course, you ARE adults. I’m just an old(er) adult whose maternal instincts blur my common sense occasionally. Ahem.
Same here with the maternal instinct, though I don’t have kids myself and only have about ten years on these guys.
For some reason, it’s hard to remember that college students are adults. Maybe because higher ed dorm life is kind of a prolonged adolescence, maybe because I look back at my college self and think “Wow, I was *young.* And immature. And clueless.”
But, anyway, Biola Underground, if those of us who are older than you slip up and refer to you as “kids,” please know that we’re not trying to be condescending. (And you’re a heck of a lot more mature than I was as a college student.)
And we forget because psychiatrists agree: we are not mentally adult, as in ready for modern life challenges independently, until 21-24 years of age. It increases as successful living requires more decision making. So, I did not feel “adult” until 24 and I see 20 year old people as young.
LOL, Kelly – I was thinking the very same thing!! I will bake cookies. I will send hugs and care packages. So will my daughters, if they need surrogate sisters to cheer them on.
God bless you, and if you haven’t already, I hope you’ll connect with alumni. You KNOW Biola has gay alumni, every school does. And alumni who can be allies. Get them to start a facebook group, and then to make public their support. Alumni can’t be touched, but they matter. Moreover, they give courage and consolation to students coming out.
I can’t remember — but I’m pretty sure this has happened on other conservative Christian campuses. Alumni —I think they’re key. Best to you all!
I also attended a very conservative Christian college (my school would have considered Biola LIBERAL, by the way). Fortunately, I was straight and an avid koolaid drinker at the time. However, I will say this. I admire these students and what they are doing. But I don’t think it’s going to end well for them. That is, if ending well means staying a Biola student. Maybe this is just part of the process of coming out to their friends and families. But speaking from experience at Gestapo-like disciplined “Christian” schools, I think the cat will be out of the bag before Monday.
Revolt! Upheaval! Civil disobedience!
A critical mass of youth exploding the BS!
May the generations of tortured souls salute you!
I hear them! Loud and clear!
Done.
This is much needed good news in a week that has been sad and infuriating. I fully support these courageous students!
Perhaps the fact that they feel yet have to “hide” is clear evidence of their sin. That’s typically what people do when theyre running from God. Oh that we would return to the Gospel and find ourselves grounded in scripture and Gods design for us.
People also hide from those who would do them harm; especiallyhiding from those who would use the bible as a blunt object.
Just like that wicked self-righteous glory-hogging Sabbath-breaking blasphemer, Jesus of Nazarath, who had to hide who he really was too, until the proper time had come!
It’s clear evidence of oppression. I can tell you that.
Back in Roman days, Christians had to hide. Was being a Christian a sin?
Perfect response!
The gospel is that Jesus LOVED. You are ignoring what the gospels say about not judging and taking the log out of your own eye. You obviously don’t know any openly gay people, or you wouldn’t presume to claim knowledge of God’s design for us. Your self-righteous judgment against these people says much more about you than it does about them. People like you are the reason they are only safe underground for the time being.
Amen Melody, amen.
Amen, sister.
“return to the Gospel”…
YES! Because I have been looking to sell my daughter into slavery.
So why don’t you use your real name, eh “Student”?
They aren’t hiding from themselves. They aren’t running from their sexuality. They are brave to accept themselves.
Christine is right, Student. They aren’t hiding from themselves. They aren’t hiding from God.
They’re hiding from YOU.
Exactly.
I guess for you, women back in the day who had to hide the fact that they could read was a sin too, right? That was against the rules of ethics and morals.
Anne Frank was a big ol’ sinner, I guess. Not like she faced any sort of threat from violent hateful goons just like Student at all.
Ahh, yes. The way the early church hid. It must have been clear evidence of their sin.
What? You say hiding from persecution is a thing? We learn something new everyday.
Yep. And apparently the ichythys (Jesus fish) was invented as a code to suss out who it was safe to tell you were a Christian. And here I thought the early Christians just slapped them on the back of their oxcarts (with WWJD written next to it).
You go, Biola students! Awesome! Praying for you. May God bless your efforts, and may you be the light that your fellow students need. This is so very brave of you!
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