(If you arrived here via a link in my HuffPo piece on Americans United contacting the IRS about pastor Charles Worley, you were supposed to end up not at this post, but rather at NC Pastor: “Let’s put all the queers and lesbians behind electric fences and let them die.” [VIDEO]. This post is a follow-up to that one. Sorry for that linky snafu.)

I mean … what does one do with this sort of thing?
I’m starting to feel like I’m living in some kind of Bizzaro World parallel universe, where … well, where no one ever goes to a decent school, for one.
I’m not saying that this woman is stupid; she doesn’t seem particularly organically stupid at all. But that she’s pretty dramatically uneducated is painfully obvious. She seems to have almost no capacity for the most basic kind of reasoning—the kind of reasoning that is the first and primary benefit of even a solid elementary school education.
And her anger is palpable; she positively radiates hostility. And I don’t blame her for being angry. It’s a terrible thing to even say, but the truth is that the world is generally a terribly harsh place for people who are uneducated. When you don’t know how to at all reason—not to mention when you’ve been trained to believe there’s not really much you personally can do to impact the quality of your life—your world very quickly gets and remains very small.
And people aren’t designed to live lives too small. You trap most people in too stifling a place, and effectively remove their hope, and you end up with people who during most of their waking hours are looking for nothing so much as a fight.
This woman would do damage. She’ll take a motherfucker out. People are always saying that they can’t understand how everyone in Nazi Germany could have supported what the Nazis were doing. And yes, I understand that many citizens in Germany at that time had no idea what their army was doing. But basically this woman, right here, is the answer to that question. People of her ilk are exactly how the Nazi army could have done what it did.
You put this woman in anything near a mob of others like her, hand her a drink and a baseball bat, and then point her toward some gays, or Jews, or Muslims—or anyone she thinks is either of those? Some skulls are gonna get cracked. People will die. And she’ll come home, throw her bloody clothes in her washing machine, down a beer or six, and sleep that night just as sound as she could be, secure in her conviction that she’s a perfectly good, perfectly God-fearing woman.
People like her get me itchy. They make me want to start storing food and buying weapons. And I’m not sure that in America today we’re producing any more of any kind of person than we are people like her. I think she’s the norm these day. If not, she’s entirely too close to it.
I’m not saying that I’m quite yet freaking out. But I am starting to get that weird tingly feeling that you sometimes do when it feels like there’s a big, ugly storm coming your way, one that it’s just possible you’re not going to be entirely capable of weathering.

















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That was heart-rending. I think of how much Jesus must suffer to see such bile being spread in His name. With every roll of her eyes, with every dismissive twitch and repeat of “here we go again”, I see that she would, without any compunction, gladly see people die because they don’t meet her church’s idea of worth.
When Mr. Cooper asks a reasonable question, her only recourse is to display utter contempt for him with every fiber of her being and return to her corner, where she can say “there you go again”.
I’m sorry but stupid is exactly the word I would use for this woman. She had a hard time answering very simple questions. I have known people who have had very little education and are of exceptional intelligence and I’veet people who hold degrees from establishments of higher learning who could hardly compete intellectually with a brick. Something tells me she’d have difficulty conversing with a fence post.
Exactly. Jesus wasn’t educated in the conventional sense in his day, but he knew his shit, plain as day. That’s what makes the difference. You may not go to college, but if you’ve been taught to think for yourself and not judge others, then it doesn’t matter if you’re flipping burgers for a career–you’re still making a difference and a contributing member to a healthy society.
I want to speak at least a small word of defense for her – although her views about gays are indefensible, I wouldn’t conclude she’s stupid from a single interview. She’s a laymen who isn’t used to public speaking or debating and was kind of put on the spot. I also wouldn’t assume she’d join in violence against gays, even though she might advocate it verbally. Some of these comments are grounded in stereotypes that all country people from North Carolina are unintelligent. We should focus on the issues and the statements made, not attack the people.
Sort of.
She’s a laymen who isn’t used to public speaking or debating and agreed to be on national television in an interview to air her views.
It’s not like she’s some bystander to a tragedy who got ambushed by the media.
And point of order, verbally advocating violence against gays is joining in it, if it happens as a result.
There’s a chance that she got thrown to the wolves because anyone who could have done better had the sense not to be caught on film defending this sh*t. She might have been “nominated” congregation spokesperson and been less than eager or prepared. Doesn’t excuse anything, just might be why she was on TV. Others may be willing to toe the line, but only if they don’t become the centre of attention for it.
It’s the classic case of the blind leading the blind. No offense whatsoever to those blessed people who are sight impaired.
I can’t believe I watched the whole thing. I live in Kentucky, where you probably couldn’t throw a stone without hitting someone like her. The moment that epitomized this whole interview has to be when she was asked how she’d feel about putting Jews behind electric fences, and she just raises her eyebrows. Clearly she’s oblivious to the fact that that actually happened.
Or she doesn’t care that millions of Jews were put behind fences and systematically murdered.
I’m pretty sure this interpretation is correct. Everyone knows these things.
She doesn’t care because it’s ancient history and it was done by Bad People. She is not a Bad Person and neither is her pastor, so therefore anything a Nazi said or did has nothing whatsoever to do with her.
Besides, all the Jews had do to was stop being Jews, right? So they missed their chance to be saved when they had it. No point in getting upset about what happened to a bunch of people who were going to hell anyway, right?
Her pastor was clearly talking about the good kind of electric fences.
I felt like she had to think about it. Like she didn’t know whether she’d mind Jews being fenced in, too. Maybe she was trying to remember if they’d ever had a sermon on it so she’d know how to answer…
She might actually be confused if you asked her if there were any Jews in the Bible.
Unfortunately, a great many fundamentalist Christian churches teach that Jews are going to hell unless they accept Jesus and become Christians. And years ago my mom said she heard some radio Bible teacher say, very emphatically, “Jesus wasn’t a Jew; he was a white man!” That may have been a long time ago but I suspect that belief still has some adherents here and there…
There are. I was unfortunate enough a few years back to stumble upon a website called “Jew Watch” that had an article on why Jesus wasn’t actually a Jew, and it rambled on using Bible verses trying to explain this in the most convoluted way. It ended basically saying, “My savior isn’t a Jew, thank God.” And as bad as that is, it gets worse. There are actually some Aryan supremacists that wrote their own “Adamic” version of the Bible because they believed that what we consider the Bible today was corrupted by Jews, so they believed Aryans should rewrite it. It’s incredible the lengths people will go to defend racism and hate.
She’ll read the comments on her video, exclaim that she’s being taken out of context, go home or to church indignant, and be comforted by her fellow church members for being so “persecuted” by those probing questions.
Wow. Sad.
It’s scary because it’s people like this that are actually reproducing.
You meant to say, “Just HEARTbreaking,” right? I mean, I can’t help but to feel sorry for people like this. Life cannot — CANNOT — be pleasant for her in any way, shape, or form.
now, I’m not laughing any more…. – it really is a pity they are not here in the UK, as such comments are a crime here.
Wow. Just sad and scary. Clearly was focused on defending her pastor/standpoint rather than engaging in a logical discussion about the fact that promoting such hateful ideas is wrong.
This makes me ashamed to be an American.
She doesn’t have to think, she has Worley (who is just as ignorant) to think for her.
Hi, longtime reader, first time commenter. I am not Christian or religious by action or thought. That means I usually sit out theological debates. I follow this blog because I was raised Catholic and I like to see a community of people who identify as Christian and who see Christian persecution of gays and lesbians as fundamentally at odds with Christianity. It’s a warm fuzzy to know that you guys are out there fighting that fight for me.
I’m not here to harp on that woman’s very unChristian beliefs or her obvious ignorance. I think those things are clear. I want to point out that she is the type of person who needs an external moral source more than anyone. She doesn’t seem capable of reasoning her way to a proper understanding of morality. So, Christianity can do that work for her. But, it failed her. Or her community failed her. Her pastor failed her.
I don’t hate that woman or her ignorance (I certainly wish she were less ignorant). I just imagine what she would be like if her pastor had told her to love an accept everyone instead of hating them. Instead of swallowing poison, she deserves to swallow a panacea. Her, and people like her, need to be protected from morally bankrupt people who only wish to use her ignorance against her, against me, and against all Christians.
It would be informative at this point to read about James Fowler’s “Stages of Faith Development”. Note that the majority of adults never move past Stage 3, and it is in the interest of people like Pastor Worley to keep them in that Stage. There is much on the internet about Fowler’s Stages, but this is a good summary… http://www.exploring-spiritual-development.com/JamesFowlersStages.html
That was really interesting, thank you!
Thanks for posting this. I was going to make a comment about Fowler’s stages but couldn’t remember what his name was, which made it difficult! I think Mark’s comment is very insightful – if this woman is actually a moral imbecile, and she does appear to be, it’s the job of a good pastor to guide her where she can’t guide herself.
Also like to mention that I know an adult with Down’s Syndrome who is a wise and gentle loving person, even though he has trouble bagging groceries, and I went to school with a genius who was a horrifying bully who ruined every life around him. Moral intelligence and mental ability are not connected at all.
Not gonna watch. My brain is already well-done.
We need to split the country and give them some small bit down by the gulf. I’ve had it with stupid people.
Came close to having a flashback on this one. Hate and ignorance, a frightening combination.
Plain and simple sad. How can people think like this. Let em die out behind the fence. How dumb can you be. It is scary that people do think like this. Blind leading the blind in that church.
She needed a few gay people up her family tree; it might have reduced the inbreeding.
That was wonderful. All anyone really needs to know about Worley and his followers is summed up in that poor woman’s inability to construct a coherent sentence – or even a coherent thought.
I hope his parishioners all make videos just like hers, and they get distributed far and wide, so everyone can see what caliber of person listens to creatures such as Worley.
Yeah, and she will vote for the GOP for the same lack of reasoning.
Wow. You know, Anderson Cooper displayed some serious patience there, and he tried to slow it down for her … but I really don’t think anyone can ever take her seriously. So hostile, so clearly idiotic.
My husband was standing behind me watching the video and he just burst out laughing. Not at the woman, but at how ridiculously beautiful Anderson is, and how hard he was trying to control himself. Poor baby!
Off the subject a bit …but who picked her to do this interview? I know she might represent many of the members of that church. But why do people always put the most backwards uneducated people in the south on t.v? It really does the same thing to those of us who live here as it does to gays or anyone else. I have a great sense of humor and often make fun of my southern roots, but when you constantly see the worst of the worst from the southern states doing interviews..of course it makes people think all of us are uneducated, toothless, bigots and rednecks. It was obvious to the producers of this show that Anderson Cooper (who I happen to have a crush on) would eat her alive.
I am being a little funny, but surely there was at least one college graduate in a church that size..right? ~sigh~ Deep down I was hoping at least a handful of his congregation would have walked out that day and they could have interviewed at least one of those people. Maybe I should just move….
Is it possible that in that particular church there are no educated people? I don’t live in the South but in a very rural, redneck area anyway. There are a couple churches here that are exactly like that and have not one educated person. I’m not sure the pastors are educated either.
Leslie you are right, it is possible. But I have lived in a very rural redneck area all my life and even in the most fundamental churches, some that I attended growing up, they have some very educated people who think and feel exactly like she feels which is extremely frightening. But at least they could have expressed their views somewhat intelligently and had a “real” conversation with Anderson Cooper. Instead they picked someone they knew he would make look stupid which does not do anyone any good. The reality is there are many people who hold her beliefs who are quite educated. Let’s have conversations with those people to finally start truly building bridges in this issue. This “pastor” was extreme and this lady has probably never had an independent thought since she was two years old, but there are loving dedicated Christians who still cannot get past the clobber verses about homosexuality and those are the people we need to be having conversations with…not the people who just make “good news” and makes my new crush, Anderson..look good..haha
You know he’s gay, right?
n. I have heard that…but how do we know for sure?LOL And even if he is, I don’t care..I will still have a crush on him. I have had a crush on Elton John since 1971..and always will.
Somebody i know that travels a lot has seen him out (not Out of course, except in that situation) with partner.
Impossible crushes are OK though.
I’m in Memphis and I don’t take it personally. These people don’t have one thing in common with me or my church or anyone I’ve ever been around. And there’s every likelihood this lady is regarded as extremely intelligent within her church and runs the potluck and writes the newsletter. How many college graduates do you think attend this obviously blue-collar church?
Allie I don’t know..but I would guess that it is many more than you think. Just because people do not view things the same way we do does not mean they cannot get a college education. I went to school at Memphis State and was from a small area in the south that you could have fit in one corner of Germantown and I found that college to have much less rigorous standards than the small Junior College I attended back home. So you can’t judge someone’s education on where they go to church or where they live. I think you are right that she may have been picked because she might have run the potluck dinners or the Toddlers and Tiaras contest in town. But I would bet there were a few other people who were better qualified as a public speaker for my hero Anderson to talk to …if…his producers had cared about that.
It truly is all about their lack of reasoning ability. They don’t critically think about anything! They truly believe they’re “Soldiers for Christ.” She’d probably go off with that baseball bat and sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” and quoting Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (That’s the King James version because this “pastor” Worley claims that only that version is the inerrant word of God.)
The problem I see is that they are the principalities. They are the ones entrenched in spiritual wickedness. They are the darkness of the world. And we are the ones that must wrestle against them to further God’s Kingdom here on earth.
(Sorry if that sounds all fundamentalist and stuff…that upbringing sometimes lingers.)
Well, the original idea of “fundamentalism”, when it was born back in the eighteenth century, was that (a) organized churches were susceptible to worldly corruption and thus were not valid sources of doctrine, so (b) everyone should learn to read the Bible and start learning about God there. Of course, that didn’t work out so well, because there’s now a fundamentalist orthodoxy that is at least as intransigent as anything to come out of Rome, but it wasn’t a bad idea to start out with!
True, John. I think the term “Fundamentalist Christian” is too far gone to ever reclaim its original meaning. Darn, the term “Christian” is almost too far gone. That’s why so many people choose to label themselves as Christ followers or something similar. I still cling to the name in the hopes that people will realize that Christians aren’t all bigoted and hypocritical.
Amen Leslie!
I’ve decided to go with “christian but not religious” and see how that works.
As a proud citizen of North Carolina, I have to say all this hate coming form my state in recent weeks – from Amendment One to the coming KKK rally in Harmony (irony, at it’s finest) to these gay hating preachers and their clueless flocks defending them – is shameful! You hit the nail on the head with your blog John. It’s all about education, which sadly isn’t valued much in this area of the state. I moved here a little over eight years ago (I live in the foothills, just about an hour west of where this church is located) and within the first month of being here was surprised by a mailer I got trying to “educate” me on how to vote properly (sent out by a local Baptist church). They talked about how the country was being lost to the evil of liberalism, etc. and included a list of “enemies” to always be wary of. The NEA topped that list….no joke. Their #1 enemy was the National Education Assoc. It’s frightening that such people exist in my midst. The good news is that their numbers actually are dwindling. I’ve seen a reduction in just the eight years I’ve been here. But looking around at our most recent events of hate and ignorance taking center stage again, it’s quite apparent there is still a very long way to go..
make that “tries to defend him”…not the most articulate spokesperson.
Now that I’ve watched this (I wanna bang my head against my coffee table), my gut reactions are:
1) This woman is only one rung lower on the intelligence ladder from Sarah Palin (which says a lot more about Palin than anything else).
2) I could picture my good friends’ eight-year-old daughter having a field day with this woman, pummeling her in a “debate” on homosexuality…or to be more realistic, it’d be an intellectual thrashing to the 50 gazillionth degree.
3) When she gets called out, her reactions and body language remind me of the guests on Jerry Springer who think that yelling “BITCH!” 23 times in a row at the other lover will somehow win you the argument.
My God, that was painful.
My husband and I made a donation to The Trevor Project in the churches honor. Maybe we need to give more.
Good for you. I made mine to GLSEN. My heart breaks most for children and teens who grow up hearing those messages of hate and come to realize that they, themselves, are the targets.
People like this have been getting a pass on their hate for a long, long time. The internet has made the world a lot smaller in terms of what one can say with impunity, and they have no one but themselves to blame when their words create a major sh#tstorm. Righteous indignation always trumps honest introspection with these people.
It was interesting watching Anderson Cooper, of all people, conducting this interview. How he kept a straight face (pardon the expression) is beyond me.
I was thinking the same thing, Bob. Anderson Cooper must have wanted to go throw up then shower for an hour just to get the image and sound of her off.
Yes, he was truly amazing in how he didn’t get flustered or drawn in. I could never do that.
Agreed. It takes really thick skin to handle that, and I definitely don’t have that kind of skin.
To think there are so many of them too……
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