(If you arrived here via a link in my HuffPo piece on Americans United contacting the IRS about pastor Charles Worley, you were supposed to end up not at this post, but rather at NC Pastor: “Let’s put all the queers and lesbians behind electric fences and let them die.” [VIDEO]. This post is a follow-up to that one. Sorry for that linky snafu.)

I mean … what does one do with this sort of thing?
I’m starting to feel like I’m living in some kind of Bizzaro World parallel universe, where … well, where no one ever goes to a decent school, for one.
I’m not saying that this woman is stupid; she doesn’t seem particularly organically stupid at all. But that she’s pretty dramatically uneducated is painfully obvious. She seems to have almost no capacity for the most basic kind of reasoning—the kind of reasoning that is the first and primary benefit of even a solid elementary school education.
And her anger is palpable; she positively radiates hostility. And I don’t blame her for being angry. It’s a terrible thing to even say, but the truth is that the world is generally a terribly harsh place for people who are uneducated. When you don’t know how to at all reason—not to mention when you’ve been trained to believe there’s not really much you personally can do to impact the quality of your life—your world very quickly gets and remains very small.
And people aren’t designed to live lives too small. You trap most people in too stifling a place, and effectively remove their hope, and you end up with people who during most of their waking hours are looking for nothing so much as a fight.
This woman would do damage. She’ll take a motherfucker out. People are always saying that they can’t understand how everyone in Nazi Germany could have supported what the Nazis were doing. And yes, I understand that many citizens in Germany at that time had no idea what their army was doing. But basically this woman, right here, is the answer to that question. People of her ilk are exactly how the Nazi army could have done what it did.
You put this woman in anything near a mob of others like her, hand her a drink and a baseball bat, and then point her toward some gays, or Jews, or Muslims—or anyone she thinks is either of those? Some skulls are gonna get cracked. People will die. And she’ll come home, throw her bloody clothes in her washing machine, down a beer or six, and sleep that night just as sound as she could be, secure in her conviction that she’s a perfectly good, perfectly God-fearing woman.
People like her get me itchy. They make me want to start storing food and buying weapons. And I’m not sure that in America today we’re producing any more of any kind of person than we are people like her. I think she’s the norm these day. If not, she’s entirely too close to it.
I’m not saying that I’m quite yet freaking out. But I am starting to get that weird tingly feeling that you sometimes do when it feels like there’s a big, ugly storm coming your way, one that it’s just possible you’re not going to be entirely capable of weathering.

















{ 374 comments… read them below or add one }
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Ah, the two-sided coin of freedom of speech… (sigh)
As you’ve pointed out here, John, people like me offend and injure bigoted cis heterosexual people’s values, ideas, and worldviews. And that’s hard. I genuinely sympathize.
But these people injure and kill LGBTQ people’s bodies. You know, flesh and bone. Stuff that leaves permanent scars and corpses. There’s a reason that one of the few times the transgender community comes together (since we are few) is to remember those of us who were murdered in the last year.
And it’s so sad that it could all just be avoided with some education and varied life experiences. No one is too stupid for an education in loving their fellow human being.
This woman clearly entered a battle of wits unarmed.
Lord, deliver me (us) from your followers.
I thought that she appeared angry, but also troubled. This church has been happily motoring along in relative obscurity until someone…filmed a sermon and put it out into the world. Then the world attacks. That’s the thing about social media. Interestingly the last couple of weeks, there has been a big firestorm in the horse community about Tennessee walking horses and their abuse. Its been an ongoing problem for decades. Only this time… it got on Facebook, and Twitter, and YouTube, then people posted links, to the sponsors of horse shows of the abusers, like Pepsi, and Ford. Links to people in law enforcement, in the breed’s administration, of politicians, and other media. Suddenly things are different. They lost their sponsors, their phone is ringing, their email is jammed, their websites crash. It is no longer their dirty little secret. I strongly suspect that some of the Tennessee Walking Horse abuse people are also the homophobic, racist, hate group, people who might very well go to churches like this. That congregation has to be wondering who the hell took the video. Was it one of their own? Do they have a gay-lover in their congregation? Gasp! Maybe they even have a gay person in the congregation? Or maybe one of their visitors. Now are they going to be able to invite people to their church? That is a quandary, because all church folk like to welcome new members, and maybe have an altar call, have some folks walk up to the front! But what if they are spies? And in her heart of hearts, I bet there is an un ease… why are so many people interested in this? Why are so many people focusing on HER, and her minister, and not in a good way? Why does it feel so shitty? Maybe, John, she is going home and sleeping well, thinking she is a God fearing woman, but are you saying that good God fearing people, never have any doubt? Of course not. And I bet she is feeling pretty uncomfortable right now.
Since some years ago there was a Federal law passed mandating USDA inspections for Tennessee Walking horses, it’s hardly the first time it’s been under a spotlight. Not to drag the conversation off-topic, but those guys are gangsters, in the literal sense that they threaten to break the knees of anyone who opposes them. Look up “Champagne Watchout” if you want to learn about a true hero in action – a 16 year old black girl who dared to ride her flatshod horse against Big Lick horses despite death threats and riots.
“I’m not saying this pretty woman is stupid”
If it was a male being interviewed would we have needed any assessment of her attractiveness? It doesn’t help the situation that the assessment was a positive one, because all it does is reinforce to women that an assessment is always being made.
Um, in context, yes, we generally would have heard some sort of redneck comments, especially if his hairstyle or dentistry met the stereotypes people have of people who sound and think like this.
Your point about women being evaluated on their looks is valid, the idea that male rednecks aren’t is an error.
Unfortunately what I read as the subliminal subtext was “she’s overweight and dressed like a redneck and I’m pretending to be too nice to have noticed.” Saying nothing would have been better.
Yeah, Allie, it is unfortunate that you think so little of me. Sheesh. I think she’s pretty, so I thought I’d compliment her. If it was a man, I’d have thrown in the word handsome.
But, screw it: I’ll go take it out.
You’re right, that was a little unfair. What I got out of it was more, “I’ll head any comments of that sort off at the pass.” But thinking that does imply noticing that. Sorry if I misjudged you, but I myself am overweight and have long noticed that pointedly calling someone overweight “pretty” usually has a subtext.
I get that, and if i’d noticed it i would have probably had the same reaction as you.
Sometimes i don’t notice what a person looks like if i am concentrating on the content of their conversation. When i watched the video i was struggling to understand what the faces she was making really meant: fear, anger, disgust, distrust, etc?
But actually looking at her again in the still picture, when she isn’t making ornery faces, she *is* kinda pretty.
I didn’t mind it. It actually made me notice that she was, indeed, pretty. I like that John thought that when many would dismiss her looks because she isn’t the media “ideal” of what pretty should be.
I thought it was nice.
Right?! Thank you.
Well, sure!
*confoned – damn auto correct!
That’s funny, Lois! Sadly, the confined person is easily smarter than this woman.
Terrified.
*”I am inclined to think…” should be part of the first sentence. i don’t have any proof of that.
quite frankly being slightly familiar with Anderson’s tactics in producing his show, he deliberately went out of his way to find someone who wouldn’t give coherent answers. we also don’t know how the interview was edited.
but it’s maybe the most illuminating, really, in that it’s from patent looking at this that this lady’s attitude (which is fairly-likely typical) is one of besiegement. she feels like her church and pastor are being beaten up on unfairly, and they’re “victims” (e.g. “why do you keep harping on that?”). this is an appealing mindset, because if we’re the victims, somebody else is at fault.
I agree. While it came off like Cooper was just looking for a way to produce a segment for people who are already on his side to point and laugh at when he says “gotcha!”, while managing to make people with views like hers…recognize exactly what was going on. Did you see her expression at the end when she said “thank you very much?” She knew. People can justify feeling like victims if they want, we’ve seen it happening on the religious right for years and years, but things like this just look like fuel for that fire. I hate anti-intellectualism but I can understand that it’s rooted in “he wouldn’t let me finish my sentence, and then he made me look like an idiot” moments like that.
When I was looking for a church to join, support for gay marriage and families was one of the requirements. I find views like hers absolutely wrong and sad and horrifying. Yet I STILL felt uncomfortable watching that.
Argh. Forgive the compositional train wreck that is the second sentence, I guess I revised on the fly and didn’t proofread.
Nobody cares—or should care—about punctuation or whatever in blog comments, of all places.
Why are those of you suggesting that Anderson
Somehow edited this to create a “gotcha” moment so confident in that assertion? How else could this have been edited? What other conclusions could have been drawn?
Looks like the Providence Road church may get their tax exempt status revoked.
Http://www.au.org/files/pdf_documents/providence%20road%20letterhead%20version%2C%205.23.12.pdf
As they should.
I’m still just really impressed at how the News Guy was so somber and serious in his questions. I don’t know if I could have done that interview without cracking up in incredulous laughter. Props to him for being very professional while having to carry on such idiotic discourse. I’m fairly certain my six year old understands reproduction better than she does…..
Poor baby. I just couldn’t stop laughing.
The first subtitle was something like “Lesbian prays for Pastor Worsley”. My first tought, before hearing what she said, was “it must be her”.
That’s hilarious! I was thinking the same!!!
I don’t think Anderson Cooper is used to talking to stupid people. He seemed a little unsteady.
I think we have unmasked the confoned email writer!
well said, Peet!
I may be naive, but I actually think that most Americans are pretty well-educated. High literacy rate. Access to news. Capable of thinking.
Which is why I am glad this woman made her comments. Because if you want proof that the anti-gay forces are shooting blanks, she’s Exhibit A. They’ve run out of arguments and are left with nothing but hostility. If I was a lawyer, I would happily put her on the witness stand. Followed by a comment to the jury: “Is this what you want for the future of America?” 30 years ago, the verdict would have been ‘yes.’ I don’t think we’d get the same answer today.
Dear John,
[dickish "comment" deleted.]
Cheers!
Jason
Cheers? Really?
I thought “For the Kingdom!” would have been over the top. An evangelist I know signs his emails that way.
Seriously, you need to swallow some humility. It can taste bitter, but you’ll feel better later. It’s for the Kingdom!
[dickish comment deleted]
You’re pretty creepy.
Hi DR,
[dickish comment deleted]
(thanks John)
Go away. Go start your own blog and you can pull the grammar nazi routine on anyone who posts there.
Mike,
[dickish comment deleted]
Hugs,
Jason
Glad to see your ever abundant charity towards those you feel you must reprimand for simple grammatical errors. If John succeeded in communicating the point then he did an infinitely better job than the woman in the video. Comparing the two on a basis of this makes little sense and serves mostly to drive the conversation away from its bulk; as has happened. I can understand, for this reason, why he would wish to remove the clutter from his Facebook page that you had seemed to cause. Grammar is one thing, etiquette is another.
Devin,
[dickish comment deleted]
Jason
“This woman is clearly not the smartest.woman in America.” Understatement of the year. I’m sure you.think you’re God’s gift to John to correct his tragic grammar, but I’d say you’re hardly in the position to tell him how to write. John is Einstein compared to this woman. You’re a pompous dick, and nothing more. Go get a life and stop looking for fights to feel better about your pitiful existence.
Your reply, Melody … [dickish comment deleted]
Peace be with you, Melody.
Jason
To point out that someone is uneducated is not “belittling”. It is an accurate assessment of their level of awareness around a particular subject.
I’m amazed that John has the patience to deal with those of you who do this, I really am.
Jason, you’re lying. There are tons of us who saw your comment and it was filled with your typical passive-aggressive hostility of a guy who can’t handle conflict very well and uses something stupid like grammatical errors to express his anger.
You certainly know when to turn the “my nice Christian words” hose on but they are transparent and after seeing the comment that was deleted, makes me sad and embarrassed for you. You have no real self-awareness of what it is you’re really communicating and you’re clearly terrified of just telling it like it is.
Hi DR,
[dickish comment deleted]
For the Kingdom!
Jason
See below. Your choices on this thread are just exactly why Christians like you who are just as dangerous to the GLBT community than this poor woman featured who doesn’t know anything else. You are having a temper tantrum that you got blocked because of the needless, stupid microscope you put on a typo or two that has zero to do with education. Zero. And now you’re all over the place, talking about specks, logs, etc.
And on top of that, it’s really creepy to watch you losing it while wrapping it in your “evangelist, for the Kingdom” candy-coated Jesus wrapping. If you’re a troll (which I think you might be), you’re doing an excellent job.
Ahhh. You’re a troll! You’re mocking what an Evangelist Christian would do in this setting, there’s no one reasonable who’d act this way. Wow, you got under my radar, nicely done.
This is *exactly* the kind of Christian that is incredibly dangerous. Christians like Jason say they “agree with everything”. But they divert time, energy and focus on these inane, ridiculous points of contention that have nothing to do with the actual massive battle of awareness, prevention and repair that must go on regarding the abusive rhetoric and oppression that Christianity either promotes or passively allows to continue unchallenged.
It’s the Jasons of the world that terrify me, who don’t have the common sense and/or intellect to see that this kind of energy spent diverts time and attention away from the real issue they say they care about (which I don’t believe for a second, but that’s just me).
Dangerous. Way more dangerous than this woman featured because there are millions of them, they have the capacity to change and they just won’t.
Don’t let the door hit you on your smug ass on the way out.
I love the passive-aggressive dickishness of comments like these.
Jason for the record, I saw your comment and it was way more than talking through the grammatical errors. You’re delusional if you think it was only that.
Hi again, DR,
[dickish comment deleted]
Cheers!
Jason
You’re either a troll or someone who might be a little emotionally troubled. Hard to tell on the internet.
In my experience, they often go hand in hand. I say both. He desperately needs a life.
Jason: my correcting the little grammar and spelling mistakes in this post had jack to do with your braying about them. I was insanely busy yesterday, as busy as I’ve ever been for twelve hours straight in my life. I threw that post up there without doing ANY of the proofing–or taking any of the sort of time—that I routinely do with each of my posts, knowing that my readers would be okay with its minor errors—that they would understand—until I finally had time to later that evening clean it up. And when I finally had five minutes to spare last night, I cleaned it up.
I axed you off my Facebook page (and will after this from my blog) because you’re always leaving smug, passive-aggressive, snarky little comments that are … well, exactly like the kind you left on my FB page–and have, I see, left here. I’m just tired of you, is all. Go be pissy somewhere else.
20 bucks on Jason faking another profile and coming back for more.
I think you’re right… see comments by someone calling themselves dooooowop… the troll has resurfaced.
I’m THE most forgiving person of typos. Because I’m a grammar fanatic but very busy and so. while I know better, everything I write online is often full of typos. I’m throwing comments up on the go and, if the meaning is clear, that’s a success. Who cares if I spelled “there” as “their” of missed an apostrophe. You edit when you can, and when you can’t, you don’t hold back the message for the sake of a typo. I fully, completely agree.
I do find sometimes people here DO criticize grammar and typos. My instinct is far from to chastise, but to get self-conscious because I know I’m no better. I feel they are talking about ME.
No excusing trying to turn that back on you, of course. It was far more dickish (just the right word, John!) than any mockery here. it was like he was trying to turn your own bit against you and failed, badly.
Looks just hilarous now, though.
Hi everybody!
[dickish comment deleted]
Love and Hugs in Jesus!
…followed by serious replies, repeated a half dozen times. Totally cracked me up. I appreciate the editing choice.
“Looks just hilarous now, though. ”
Yup – have arrived late to this particular party, but it is pretty funny to see all his deleted comments and faux-cheeriness interspersed with serious replies…. thanks, John, for not deleting the whole thread!
“Go be pissy somewhere else.”
Amen!
This thread is a hoot now that all the “dickish” comments were deleted.
So scarey, I am speechless at the lack of world education or knowledge about anything outside their own bubble.
When a person continually makes life critical decisions based on emotion and not fact and logic, that’s a major defect in reasoning. That’s the best example of insanity I can find. Ever notice how Republicans have the same defect in reasoning as alcoholics, drug addicts, and religious fanatics? Republicanism is a mental disorder… Granted this is never more true than when this affliction is found in a Republican woman. A Republican Woman? A Gay Republican? A Black Republican? Good God, that’s like a pro KKK African American or a pro Nazi Jew, especially by today’s GOP misogynistic, homophobic and racist standards. But there are way too many studies recently that prove the Right Wing mind is clinically irrational. We have all been told by our mothers, “Never ague with stupidity.” A Republican has to want to help themselves first in order to ‘break through’, otherwise you’re talking to a wall, just like an alcoholic. They have to hit rock bottom before they become open to help. I have found that it usually takes six to eight years of constant effort to get a Republican to think rationally, but that’s taking into account there is an iota of commonsense in their head. Another problem with Republicanism it’s patriarchal. It’s seared in during early childhood… The Jesuits said, ‘Give me the child till they’re seven and you can have the man.’ Tragically… they’re broken… Just saying…
good girls don’t need rights.
When a person continually makes life critical decisions based on emotion and not fact and logic, that’s a major defect in reasoning. That’s the best example of insanity I can find. Ever notice how Republicans have the same defect in reasoning as alcoholics, drug addicts, and religious fanatics? Republicanism is a mental disorder… Granted this is never more true than when this affliction is found in a Republican woman. A Republican Woman? A Gay Republican? A Black Republican? Good God, that’s like a pro KKK African American or a pro Nazi Jew, especially by today’s GOP misogynistic, homophobic and racist standards. But there are way too many studies recently that prove the Right Wing mind is clinically irrational. We have all been told by our mothers, “Never ague with stupidity.” A Republican has to want to help themselves first in order to ‘break through’, otherwise you’re talking to a wall, just like an alcoholic. They have to hit rock bottom before they become open to help. I have found that it usually takes six to eight years of constant effort to get a Republican to think rationally, but that’s taking into account there is an iota of commonsense in their head. Another problem with Republicanism it’s patriarchal. It’s seared in during early childhood… The Jesuits said, ‘Give me the child till they’re seven and you can have the man.’ Tragically… they’re broken… Just saying…
I appreciate you; whoever you are.
That was ridic!
Isn’t her ’15-minutes’ over already ?
God help us, indeed, John: because “Pastor help us” clearly isn’t cutting the mustard.
Do you think she gets the irony of the fact that she is cultivating a very, I love the Indigo Girls and other ladies look, yet she think gay people should be carted off holocaust style? I’m guessing no. You know what really rules? That we as Christians are required to love this woman. Ugh.
This is the one part of Christianity that I can’t get my head around. There’s a great lyric from the BareNaked Ladies called, “Maybe, Katie”:
Do you know everyone you ever swore you’d love for life
I don’t know them anymore
I know their names
I’d recognize them on the street and I don’t love them
I hold that it is humanly impossible to “love” in such a manner, regardless of the faith that teaches it. Apply that “love” to Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin. Ted Bundy. Whereas we can hold another person in high regard, hold humanity in high regard, “loving” someone unknown to you. Would you mourn them when they die? Feel even a twinge if you saw their name in the obits? Feel any sense of loss? No? Bingo.
I guess it requires a definition of “love” I’m unfamiliar with.
I mean nothing personal, Josh – I’m just in a mood and that last sentence really got to me.
There’s a difference between the warm & fuzzy love *feeling* that makes us miss a loved one, and the *choice* to act in love to anyone. It’s easy(ish) to act in love towards those we like/approve and are fond of, it’s often really hard to act in love towards the really sucky people – to remember that they, too, are loved by God, and to try to seek their best (which is *not* to excuse their suckiness, but to try to see beyond it, and not become sucky ourselves in our dealings with – and attitudes towards – them).
God’s ‘definition’ of the love we are to have is found in 1 Corinthians 13:
“4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self–seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
While I certainly find Paul’s words appropriate for the concept of love I’m familiar with, it seems wholly inappropriate again, for the examples I listed.
I could however, easily apply Paul’s concept to a suffering humanity in general, and to individuals in need, individuals with whom I interact.
I can also write people off in a heartbeat, or seek legal or social remedy for their actions. I needn’t “love” them. Sometimes, you have to take out the trash, flush the toilet, sweep the kitchen – which ever metaphor you prefer.
So, how do you know which people deserve to be flushed away? Where/how do you draw the line?
When I am confronted with behavior that, to me, defies excuse, then, as repulsed as I might be, I also think ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ and ‘judge not, lest you be judged’ and ‘vengeance is Mine, says the Lord’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. I can’t bring myself to think that there is anyone that God does not love, and if God loves them, who am I to NOT?
I can’t. Not necessarily because I don’t want to. I can’t even begin to be able to define, let alone feel the kind of “love” you’re describing. See below regarding the Greek words that translate in English as “love”.
I was told that the kind of love we had to have towards our enemies was “wanting the best for them”. I always sort of took a sideways comfort in the idea that this could include wanting them to stop being awful.
Exactly. Because in the end, they hurt themselves far more by being awful than they do anyone else. In some ways, goodness, kindness, love, is it’s own reward and evil is it’s own punishment.
Well said!
English isn’t a very good language for talking about love. In this instance you’re confusing eros with agape and philia. And refusing to allow someone to harm you isn’t incompatible with loving them.
I think the first step towards understanding God’s position on love is to try to really, really grasp the fact that you did not make yourself. You didn’t create yourself smart, or handsome, or good-tempered. Knowing that, and knowing that the temptations and difficulties you face in dealing with others are completely different ones from the ones they face, then consider how you should be grateful and gracious to everyone around you.
Great discussion. I thought I’d add a couple of Gandhi quotes I really like. I suppose they could apply to Pastor Worley, this member of the congregation, and/or our response.
“It has always been a mystery to me how some men can feel themselves
honored by the humiliation of their fellow beings.”
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
Easy to say them, hope I get better at living them…
I agree in principle. And most people have some quality that is redeeming. None of us know this woman personally. But I don’t owe her my understanding or indulgence.
On the other hand – do I hate her? I don’t know her well enough to hate her, either. I’ll leave it open as to whether she could persuade me.
But there again, while I respect the teachings of Jesus the Sage – I incorporate what makes sense and sounds like “truth”. I feel no obligation to try to aspire to what I don’t have the capacity to feel.
You might try reading John’s post about ‘What Jesus left out of the Great Commandment’ – when we focus on the FIRST part (loving God), we feel/know/understand how much He loves us, and are THEN able to begin to live out the SECOND part (love your neighbor as yourself). We don’t need to manufacture a *feeling* in our own strength.
They find the one person with a hair cut like that in the whole church .. and pick her to go on national t.v. and talk about “the homosexuals”. Nice work crazy baptist church in North Carolina.
WTF? Seriously? Did the “CHURCH” appoint this “spokesperson” and if so, did they realize how incredibly unqualified/UN-prepared/uneducated she was?……..or is she possibly the “smart one” in the congregation….which would be understandable. This woman is completely terrifying, and so is this church.
Cannot stop laughing at her blatant inability to answer the questions put in front of her. She skirted around every question asked, and never actually answered a question. Pathetic though that she’s just one of his sheep…
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