Received this letter yesterday; my response is below it.
Hi John:
What’s your take on the legitimacy of pagan practices and rituals: devil worship, praying to pagan gods, etc.? Do those have real effects, or has that been exaggerated by fundamental Christians? I recently stumbled upon a few pagan blogs via a friend of mine, and the stuff there greatly freaked me out (people hearing voices telling them to do things, having strange accidents occur, levitating stuff, and so on). Is this stuff real, and something I should stay far away from, or is this just an issue of how other people have different religious views and should be accepted too rather than avoided? Because I realize that some parts of Christianity probably come across as just as crazy to non-Christians. I’m a bit scared (okay, that’s a lie; very scared, to the extent that I’m having trouble with capitalization, which somehow happens when I’m terrified) at the stuff I’ve just read. So I thought I’d contact you, since most people I know are either skeptics who would dismiss it outright, or fundies who would freak out and claim there are demons involved. Thanks.
So, to answer this sentence by sentence:
What’s your take on the legitimacy of pagan practices and rituals: devil worship, praying to pagan gods, etc.? If you’re asking whether or not I think it’s a good idea to worship the devil, I would say that it depends on what you mean by “the devil.” If you’re equating “the devil” with evil, then, no, I don’t think anyone should worship evil. But duh.
“Pagan gods” is too broad a term to in and of itself have any meaning. Paganism is a Big Category word that refers to indigenous, ancient, polytheistic spiritual beliefs and practices. That covers a lot of history. Ancient Greeks and Romans, for instance, practiced what Christians later decided to pejoratively label “paganism.” But no one (sane) would say they were into worshiping evil.
But cutting to the chase: ancient or modern, “pagans” and “heathens” can be every bit as morally sound and spiritually healthy as anyone else. There’s a lot of wisdom in the old ways. (Speaking of all this, pastor Mark Townsend’s just released Jesus Through Pagan Eyes: Bridging Neopagan Perspectives with a Progressive Vision of Christ promises to be a great read. You can read a review of it here.)
Do those have real effects, or has that been exaggerated by fundamental Christians? Don’t know what you mean by “real effects.” Spiritual practices always have an effect on those doing them, of course. And yes, fundamentalist Christians have not just exaggerated the harmful effects of ancient, pre-Christian faith practices, they’ve distorted them beyond just about anything having to do with reality. Christians avidly labeled Native Americans, for instance, “pagans” and “heathens.” But many Indian spiritual beliefs are supremely sublime; if universally adopted Native American religion would, if nothing else, save the planet.
I recently stumbled upon a few pagan blogs via a friend of mine, and the stuff there greatly freaked me out (people hearing voices telling them to do things, having strange accidents occur, levitating stuff, and so on). Rest assured: no one gets to make gravity their bitch. And hearing voices that tell you to do things remains the exclusive domain of the insanely delusional.
Is this stuff real, and something I should stay far away from, or is this just an issue of how other people have different religious views and should be accepted too rather than avoided? You should definitely stay away from anything that’s cruel/evil/malevolent/stupid/victimizes any people or animals. Also I think a good rule of thumb is to avoid any religious ceremony that involves wearing a hooded robe. Because it’s always wise to avoid looking like once the sun comes up you’ll go right back to living in your mother’s basement and playing Fable II all day.*
Because I realize that some parts of Christianity probably come across as just as crazy to non-Christians. It is pretty hard to beat virgin births and a God who encourages people to eat his flesh and bones. (Um … new readers: I’m a Christian. Promise.)
I’m a bit scared (okay, that’s a lie; very scared, to the extent that I’m having trouble with capitalization, which somehow happens when I’m terrified) at the stuff I’ve just read. Wait. What? When you’re maximally frightened you lose your ability to properly capitalize? That’s … different. How often does that even come up? When in the grips of terror, do you tend to write stuff? Do you find it hard to write while running? Anyway, best response to fear ever. Especially, I guess, if you happen to find yourself running alongside a proofreader.
Anyway, why so afraid? Cuz of something you read on the Internet? Seriously?
Here, I’ve got something scary for you to read on the Internet: TeaParty.org. By some horrific twist of fate, I’m on the TeaParty.org’s mailing list. I’ll subscribe you if you want. Talk about an excellent reason to start hoarding canned goods.
Listen: Don’t be afraid. No one’s going to come reaching out of your computer monitor and force you to start worshiping cats. You’re safe. You’ve got a mind. You get to decide what’s real and good, and what’s a bunch of poseur geeks pretending to be “dark” and “magikal” in a last-ditch attempt to seem interesting to members of the opposite sex.
Relax. The world is yours to punctuate just as calmly and correctly as you please.
So I thought I’d contact you, since most people I know are either skeptics who would dismiss it outright, or fundies who would freak out and claim there are demons involved. Really? Those are the kinds of people you mostly know? So, you need to meet more people.
Thanks. You’re totally welcome. Thanks for writing.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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There are plenty of people within both Christian and Pagan traditions who have heard what they understood to be divine voices directing them to do things. The Bible story of Abraham and Isaac is a disturbing example.
I have seen first-hand both Christian and Pagan people who experienced leadings that appeared to lead to greater love, virtue, and peace, and also ones who have experienced leadings that led to harm and suffering.
My own belief about this (I’m Pagan myself) is that you are always responsible for your own actions, no matter what the gods say. This means that in Abraham’s situation I would have to say No, I won’t sacrifice my own child. But when my patron god said quite plainly “Stop procrastinating and study martial arts *now*”–I thought about it, and there seemed to be good sense and no harm in it, so I did. (He was right; I learned a ton of things I needed to know, mostly by being asked to teach kids. Not at all the kinds of things I expected, but useful things.)
Morality is doing what’s right regardless of what you’re told.
Obedience is doing what you’re told regardless of what’s right.
I don’t know for sure, but my impression is that many Christians rank Obedience higher, with the assumption that Morality actually only springs from God, so whatever He tells you to do is automatically right.
As Mal said, “I do not hold to that.” But that many do explains why they would listen to the voice of a God that told them to do something they considered wrong, I think.
Hi John,
Regular reader, first time commenter. I find your support as a Christian for the gay community refreshing as well as kind and even, well, Christian. I was wondering if you had heard of the blog http://www.joshweed.com/ ? It’s about a Mormon man who is gay, but married a woman, has three children, and is very happy. He’s going to be on Nightline tomorrow night.
I know of a few relationships like this second-hand, and I don’t know how they work except that love is a powerful thing and it wants what it wants when it wants it.
I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this.
Thanks so much for the fine words you post.
Cheers,
Jules
I find the notion of allowing fear to motivate you to be a very unchristian thing for any real Christian to do. I mean seriously! Unless your Christianity is more ritual and Dogma than faith and a relationship with God thru Jesus as your intercessor, you have nothing to fear from anything spiritual that a Pagan can do. How many times does God have to demonstrate that he is more powerful than some lowly demonic power for us to get it that Our Creator can beat their devil any day of the week including Sunday when he’s at rest! Am I being too harsh? Not unless you want to ignore all the scriptures where God tells us to “Fear Not”! Stop letting your flesh rule your spirit.
Sorry, he’s your devil. Pagans don’t have one.
Doesn’t the Book say that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?
The fact that you say “their devil” indicates you know nothing about Paganism. Please educate yourself before spouting off such ridiculous drivel.
Disclosure: during my college years I considered myself a pagan and ran around with a lot of varieties of pagan, mainly people calling themselves druids or wiccans. I know a bit about both the theory and the practice, and the first thing to point out is that there’s no one single group which governs these practices, so it’s impossible to generalize.
It’s hard to read the Bible without noticing that particularly in the OT, entire chapters are devoted to destroying “groves and high places” where pagan gods were worshiped. There are two commandments out of ten forbidding worship of other gods and idols. It was clearly a priority, and I think it’s dishonest to simply ignore that.
So… in light of the Great Commandment, which instructs us to love God and love our neighbor, and from which (we are told) all valid laws of God can be derived, I always try to figure out what the spirit behind the OT prohibitions was, and if it makes sense in a modern context.
First, it’s necessary to point out that there are ten million different practices and beliefs which can be referred to by the word “pagan.” Even if you get specific and use a word like “Wiccan,” there are enormously different flavors of activity and many completely unrelated groups going by that name. So it’s not possible to make general statements about all paganism.
Next. Obviously there are enormous differences between the paganism practiced by the neighbors of the writers of the Bible and modern paganism. I’m not aware of any modern pagans sacrificing infants, for example. I was going to say that I don’t know any who practice orgies, but that’s not actually true, I do know a couple who call themselves pagan and host ceremonial orgies. It goes without saying that any form of worship that is crazy and wrong if it weren’t being practiced in the name of religion is wrong even if it’s done in the name of religion. While I personally don’t necessarily think orgies among consenting adults are wrong, the thing about any behavior outside the norm is, the participants in any fringe activity are always at greater risk, because they aren’t being protected by the mores of the civilization as a whole. Orgies may not be categorically wrong at all times in all places, but they have a great potential for ill effects.
Next issue: practices which are supposed to evoke supernatural activity. It seems to me that the God I meet in the pages of the Bible is strongly opposed to bullshit of any kind. Remember the bit where (I think) Daniel unmasks the idol which is supposed to “eat” the food which is placed before it and reveals that it’s all a hoax? God is not a god of lies. He hates hoaxes. And assuming it’s not a hoax, what then? That’s even worse. Calling up actual spirits to work actual magic really is forbidden. The general attitude of most moderate Christians is, “It’s all bullshit, so it’s basically harmless.” But that’s not the attitude found in the Bible. The attitude there is that either you’re harming yourself and sinning against your own spirit by being a giant honking moron, or you’re doing even worse by summoning spirits, or you’re doing both at the same time.
So, how about nature worship? Hit Job 31:27 for me, please. In it Job is protesting his innocence before God. He is not an idolater, he says. He has never even kissed his hand to the moon. The implication being that if he had, it would have been an offense against God.
Because God is not the moon, and the moon does not care if you kiss your hand to it. Teaching yourself to pretend that the moon cares if you kiss your hand does two wrong things: it harms your belief in a real God who really does care, and it teaches you a lie about the moon, which is a lovely thing as a part of creation and does not need lies told about it.
Oh, and in more direct response to the letter writer’s question, I have an anecdote from high school days, not connected with paganism, more about pretending to the supernatural. I was a geek in high school and my friends and I were all big sf readers. Specifically we loved Marion Zimmer Bradley, and so we all had “soul stones” which we were “attuned to” and pretended that we had a circle who could communicate with each other mentally, trade energy, read auras, etc. While we were absolutely pretending, and on some level knew it would be absurd to believe we had superpowers out of a book, we talked and acted as if we really believed in this stuff, and it was a way to lighten the crushing boredom of school days.
There was a girl in our group who was sweet, not bright, and a natural follower. One of our story lines involved an attack by a bad guy who had possessed one of our stones and was trying to attack our circle. And this girl, participating in this story, worked herself up emotionally and had a seizure. It was a very real seizure, she was not pretending or faking it. She hurt herself, and had to be hospitalized.
John is right that no one gets to make gravity their bitch. But it’s quite possible for a suggestible person to auto-hypnotize herself into a fit, hear voices, or confabulate memories until she would swear impossible events really happened. The most likely danger in being around the sort of whackos who claim to summon demons, cast curses on people, and so on, doesn’t come from demons, but from being around whackos. It makes better sense to hang around people who are not acting crazy, and not act crazy yourself.
Allie, this was awesome – thank you so much for taking the time to put together such a comprehensive, and gracious, response.
I see what you are saying, and if your point is that Christians, or at least people who choose to follow whatever you would call the rules set down in the Old Testament, shouldn’t be doing some of these things, then you have a reasonable foundation for it.
But choosing to follow the tradition you’ve chosen isn’t the same as condemning those who do otherwise. Even if the rules of your own tradition require you to do some things forbidden by another tradition, or forbid you to do things required by another tradition. Just within Christianity, things the Catholic requirements not to eat meat on Fridays in Lent or some traditions’ proscriptions of dancing or alcohol only apply to those who have chosen that set of rules. They aren’t universals.
I have a problem with your moon example, because I think it completely misrepresents what the people who follow a tradition like that are doing. Simplifying it down to “telling lies about the moon” is misrepresenting that belief or tradition.
I’m not a pagan, so I won’t pretend to tell you what people who “worship” the moon feel that they are doing, but one thing I can say pretty confidently is that they aren’t claiming that the literal moon isn’t a big hunk of rock in orbit. I doubt anyone is claiming that “the moon cares” so much as that they are engaging some energy, being, or symbolic reality that is represented in natural reality by the physical moon, or using their experience of the moon to put themselves into a state of mind or spirit that the moon is a physical reflection or representation of.
The meaning of the story of Mary and Martha seems to me to apply here. If what you are doing works for you, then embrace it and go with it and live it fully. But you don’t have to view what other people are doing through the lens of your own experience and condemn them for it simply because it isn’t what you have chosen for yourself.
Beautiful, Lymis. This has been something I’ve had a difficult time putting into words as I re-investigate and reframe the faith of my past. Perhaps there is a baseline assumption made by Christians who are connected to Biblical context and detail that anyone aligning themselves with Christ but are not engaged in a firm application of scripture are not serious Christians or are wishy-washy about their commitment. (***I recognize this is a generalizing comment.***)
Yet me and my friends who, regardless of religious conviction, apply the intent and tone of scripture through the “God is love” lens, and frankly allow much of the rest to fall away. They might call God something different, they may or may not debate the divinity of Jesus, they might follow their own rituals, ceremonies, and sacred activities based on their personal direction, but we all meet in the middle with respect and compassion for each other and the world. And because I view Christ through that lens, I view myself just as committed, just as vitally a member of his congregation.
“It goes without saying that any form of worship that is crazy and wrong if it weren’t being practiced in the name of religion is wrong even if it’s done in the name of religion.”
“It seems to me that the God I meet in the pages of the Bible is strongly opposed to bullshit of any kind.”
I love these. If only more Christians understood this…
The problem is that one person’s bullshit is another person’s deep symbolic reality, and vice versa.
I think sometimes that our familiarity with the Christian tradition blinds us to how some of the claims Christians make look to people who don’t share the tradition. Virgin Birth, angels proclaiming things to shepherds, dead people coming back to life, and so on. Most pagan beliefs that I’ve ever heard aren’t that outlandish in context, and many of them make far more sense.
And it wasn’t until, through the school of hard knocks, I had to step back from what I thought I ‘absolutely knew’ about scripture, faith, God–the whole shooting match that I was humbled enough to see beauty and connection to a higher knowing in people not calling themselves Christian. I had no freakin clue! There were people that even completely challenged my long-held beliefs, but did so with gentleness. They didn’t attempt to ‘convert’ me, to corrupt or subvert me. They simply showed me kindness and acceptance not found in my church.
Through their kindness that could not be attributed to their Christianity, I began to understand a deeper love than a stubbornly-held religious belief.
This is where I cannot agree more with John when he has said it requires us to know, actually connect with people whom we have once judged as (fill in the blank). Once we put a human face to our criticisms, we lose our vice-like hold on that opinion. We are incapable of holding intolerance and love in the same space.
Allie,
I’m just presenting an outside angle, here. Speaking as a hellbound heathen (which is the nicest of many things I’ve been called…)
*Note: I’m trying to simplify concepts that aren’t always easy to convey between cultures, and so, I’m leaving things out.
I was raised in a more Native American way. It’s nothing that’s been codified, no real dogmas or doctrines attached to it, it’s more of a cultural thing.
I can’t even say that I’m exactly religious, as the term is usually meant in the Judeo-Islamo-Christian sense. I also don’t ‘worship’ in that common sense. I’ve seen various neo-pagan groups, and… no, not for me. I’m still a heathen, but I’ve my own road to walk.
I’d have to say I’m somewhere between animistic, and pantheistic.
To me, god is everything, as well as something above and beyond what we’ll ever understand. It (he) is all we see, all we think we know, all we could ever know, and all that we will *never* know. You could say that god is ‘in’ everything. God is (or is in) the mountain, the tree, God is the hawk diving for the rabbit, just as God is the rabbit that eludes the hawk. God is that which creates, and as we’ve seen, creation just keeps on creating. That’s how I feel God.
There’s an apache song that I use to ‘sing the sunset’. I sing to show appreciation for having the sun, for all that we have here because there is a sun in the sky, for the things that grow, the warmth, the light of day. Now, you’re right. I don’t ‘worship’ the sun. The sun doesn’t give a damn if I say thank you or not. The sun isn’t going to get angry that one little human forgot to say thanks tonight, or that he said it just the wrong way. But to me, it doesn’t matter if the sun cares or not. *I* care, *I* am grateful, and so *I choose* to show respect. And I feel that by admiring and appreciating and being thankful for the sun being around, I’m also admiring and appreciating and being thankful to that which made all things, the great artist that made the sun, and our world, and us. I see it like an artist. Many artists, in a way, put pieces of themselves into their art, and in a similar way, they are speaking through their art. God is the greatest artist going.
Spirits: I believe in spirits etc. Generally speaking, trying to ‘bond and control’ a spirit is a really stupid idea, if you consider what they are reputed to be able to do. Say, once you have to release it.. I’d imagine it wouldn’t be too happy with you.. that is, if it thinks too similarly to a human. To my understanding, spirits, angels, or what have you, are just different faces of the All That Is or ‘God’. Spirit or spirits/angels are a part of god that sometimes gets directly involved in our matters. So.. yeah, god takes a direct hand in our ways from time to time.
Idols: Now I don’t doubt that some folk in the past actually believed that the statue ate the offerings. Others knew it for a symbolic gesture, much like many Hindus. *I* go outside and offer pieces of food etc. from time to time. I’m usually offering it up ‘to the desert’ in a sense. By that, I mean that I’m saying “anybody (animal) that could use this, please enjoy what I have to offer”, because here in the desert, resources are scarce, and so.. if I can help a little, I do so. We all live here, right? I honor god, by trying to help what god made.
And even if I were to make a statue or painting that I dedicate to God, and decide to leave offerings.. I’d not be worshiping the statue, I’d be showing honor to what it represented, honoring God. Now, this is not my Way, but this is how I understand the idea of idols. I’m sure ‘fundamentalists’ existed even in the ancient world, and they were likely the sort who’d say “The statue *does* eat our offerings!!!” And I’m sure that these irksome fundamentalists were what troubled the early christians, and spurred *them* into acts of vandalism and more. I can’t entirely blame them… Anyone who goes looking for trouble (as these fundamentalists were likely doing) tends to call trouble back onto themselves. We see that same thing today. Look at Westboro Baptist, and the overly sensitive folks (not all the folks) in the Muslim countries…
I’ve read the bible. I don’t subscribe to it. I see great beauty in it, I also see things I can’t stand with. That’s just me. Maybe I am going to hell (At least I’ll know people there…) lol
I don’t believe that God is the sort to get mad if I call it/him by the wrong name, or any such thing. I see god as above such petty things. I see God (that which creates) as far far greater than us, and so isn’t subject to our flaws, such as jealousy, rage, etc. I know the Bible says otherwise.
Again, I was only trying to provide an outside angle here, maybe some new perspectives on old ideas or possible misconceptions. Just in case, I will say I meant no offense in anything I said. If offense is still taken through misunderstanding, I will apologize and try to make things right if I can.
Just felt I should add:
I really think god is god, meaning we’re all talking about the same thing, we just each have a different cultural basis for understanding it. God speaks to each in ways they can understand, yeah?
Just do the best we can to and for the people around us, and to the world around us, and be thankful. That seems the baseline for most Ways around the world, if you strip away dogmas and cultural style differences.
really lovely to read… thank you so much Eoghan!
I no longer identify as a Christian/christian, and I have always been drawn to what little I know about the Native American way.
I get so much out of John’s posts, and everyone’s comments, but still I’m glad to be reminded here and there that it’s ok to be here myself even if I don’t identify as Christian, that I’m not alone in that.
Thanks Mindy.
I love reading John’s work, it’s always a beauty to me.
I had some really psycho crazy experiences from fundamentalists back home, starting in school, but not only from kids. What I understood from reading the bible was “Love god, and Love thy neighbor as thyself” I found out that most were more interested in The Great Commission (convert the world) rather than the Great Commandment. If they couldn’t convert you, they’d swing fists and more at you, thinking they were doing you a favor. I knew on some level they really wanted to ‘save my soul’ from something horrible. After you’d had to defend yourself a few times, they spread it ’round that you were a ‘satanist’ whereupon things got even worse… and at that time, with the Dale Akiki thing going on, everybody was looking for ‘satanists’ under every bush. I was almost a pacifist, unless I was backed into a corner and was facing serious damage. I hated hurting anyone, even in self defense. I wasn’t keen on causing a lot of damage, I’d just get to where I could restrain and end hostilities that way. I knew how to fight, but I hated doing it. I hear some christians say that the bad old days couldn’t happen today… I say “don’t tell me that.. I lived through some of it, and I still see it waiting to fully bloom again. Just look at Westboro, and others…” The doctrines that were the foundation for the bad old times are still there, they just have law keeping them reined in for now. Thank God.
I’ve always liked learning about people. That’s always been my way. But after this, I did a lot of study, to know what was coming at me and others (god what I saw done to some others…). My point in mentioning all this is that when I read John’s writings, I feel some real hope for Christianity. John’s posts, to me, show a maturity, a rare willingness to question things, and a fantastic sense of humour!
There’s a lot of beauty in Christianity… it’s just been strangle-tied by some ideas with scary implications and effects for so long (as history has shown). I’ve heard some ‘neo-pagans’ and atheists who talk about wanting Christianity to just jump in a hole and pull the dirt on top of it. That’s not cool. Christianity’s become so entrenched, it’s become a culture (cultures?) of it’s own. I don’t like how Christianity in it’s myriad forms has assimilated, erased and rewritten so many cultures, so I don’t believe in doing it back to those who are Christian and have known nothing else. I just wish it’d leave the rest of us to what little we have left. lol I really don’t want to lose the beauty and wisdom that there is in the Christian teachings. I don’t want division of ways of life, I don’t want one ‘faith’ setting itself in opposition to any other. If we can stop the “we have The Right Way”, I really believe our peoples could start to learn so much more, and rise higher. I don’t believe in utopia, but I do believe that if we could choose to learn from each-other, then perhaps we could start to move forward at tiny bit as a species. As any culture grows, including my own root cultures, it’s important to recognize the bad, shed it or re-channel it into something better, and to enhance the healthier practices. “Accen-tu-ate the pos-i-tive, E-li-min-ate the negative”
As far as Native… First off, generally speaking, since I can speak for all peoples, native ways tend to be pretty personal. I have my road, I can’t ask you or anyone to walk my road. I’ve had folks say they wanted to get into the native way (there are many many different ‘native ways’). If they were Christian, I often look at them and want to say “what are you crazy?” lol As a Christian, you can put your deeds on Christ, and be made pure again. One thing most (I can’t say ‘all’) native ways seem to agree on is that we are responsible for everything we do, and everything we don’t do. Our sins are our own. Our cruelties, our kindnesses, our victories, our inactions, our prejudices… The responsibility is ours. If I hurt someone, *I* have to pray I can find a way to make it as close to right as I possibly can. If I see someone in trouble and I don’t do anything to help, that’s on me. If I fail to help that one, the best I can hope for is that I’ll be able to help another, but that doesn’t erase the fact that I didn’t help the first person. So, as I understand, those who’re interested in native ways have to ask themselves if they really want that responsibility. That’s part of why I can and will never convert… it’d break my brain. lol To me, (meaning nothing on anyone else) converting would mean abdicating my own responsibilities as a human being. I can’t do that and still live with myself. Again, that’s just me, on my road. To me, it’s all about being the best human being I can be, and hope I can at least balance out in the end. But I don’t believe I have a monopoly on ‘the one right way’. I know I don’t. I’ve known people of all faiths who I feel are better people than I am. I’ve seen rowdy rasty people who actually hide kind hearts, and their masks fall away more often than they might like to admit. On the other hand, I’ve seen many with the very loud attitude of “*I’m* saved, so t’ hell with the rest of y’all” Others who feel that maybe the more souls they rope in, the better their chances of getting into heaven. I’ve seen many who wear a mask of kindness, but you see something very different if you pay attention to what they actually say or do. Those who mistake condescension for benevolence.. etc. I ask ‘why?’, all the time, trying to see things from the other’s standpoint. It’s the only way to understand, yeah? Doesn’t always work, but it’s still important to push for that understanding.
This push for understanding is part of what I get from John’s writings, and it’s gorgeous to see!
This probably wasn’t as lovely a post, and I’m sorry.
**end blab**
Grr…
**Since I *can’t* speak for all peoples… *can’t*…
And I proofread that damn thing over and over… gah..
“I hear some christians say that the bad old days couldn’t happen today… I say “don’t tell me that.. I lived through some of it, and I still see it waiting to fully bloom again. Just look at Westboro, and others…” The doctrines that were the foundation for the bad old times are still there, they just have law keeping them reined in for now. Thank God.”
Yeah. Reminds me of The Third Wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave) and the TV movie based upon it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/)
Eoghan, I think you’re right that there is a right way to do these things, as well as a wrong way. And there’s also such a thing as putting too much thought into it – when I was a small child, a fundamentalist parent of one of my friends tried to terrify me with a tract for children explaining that wishing on a star was idolatry and would send you to hell. Most people would probably find that notion silly. I find it silly. I hope and believe God finds it silly – because such a humorless didactic little jerk of a God doesn’t seem very likely to have created this amazing world.
But there does seem to be a strong drive in human beings to elevate unimportant things to great importance. Is it bad that you feel grateful for the sun? I don’t think it is bad, and although as a Christian I could argue that you could go farther, looking past the sun and being grateful to the creator of the sun, that doesn’t make going as far as you go bad. It seems to be good for you, personally, and that in itself is good. But at the same time, I’m sure you’re also aware that more than one nation in the Americas killed people as a sacrifice to the sun. It seems absurd to turn a wholesome impulse like yours into murder – but somehow, for a large enough percentage of people to make up the traditions of a nation, it’s possible to get from point A to point B.
You see this drive a lot in matters which aren’t strictly religious. Take homeowner’s associations. Somehow we get from “I like grass” to “You are in violation if your grass is not trimmed to the predetermined depth.” This is absolutely not important, and yet people spent time and mental energy on it as if it were a moral issue, as if there was “right” and “wrong” grass, instead of on things which really are important.
I don’t hold strong opinions on these matters. It’s definitely not my business what others do with their interior lives. But as a believer in Christ, who was born into and raised in the Jewish tradition, when the Bible says “This is bad,” I do try to look at whatever it is to see if it really is bad, or at least to try to understand why that was said, before dismissing it.
…You’re on the Tea Party’s mailing list?
I’m picturing you going, “Honey, honey, there are cockroaches in my inbox again! Make it stop!” And Catherine’s all, “I’ll go get the Raid. And some napalm. Honestly, John, haven’t you learned to keep a can by the computer?”
And you’re all, “Yes! But they mutate D:”
“…no one gets to make gravity their bitch.”
If I wrote “LOL” that would so totally cheapen how hilarious that sentence is.
We keep TRYING, though, don’t we! Airplanes, blimps, rockets, parachutes, hang-gliders, bungee cords…Fucking gravity, man. Always keeping you down.
I identify as a Christian, but I love nature so much, and feel myself as such a part of nature, that I understand why most Pagans and Wiccans practice as they do. There is an aggressive strain of nature-hate in some fundamentalist Christian groups. I’ve heard that BIRDING is considered suspicious because it supposedly encourages belief in evolution and leads to people “revering feathered things over God’s greatest creation – Man.” So, John James Audubon: artist, naturalist, woodsman, Satanist. I can see how someone confronted with such an insane false dilemma would pick the coven.
What a great column! I’ve been a Wiccan coven leader for 40+ years, and I’ve never seen a saner, more common-sense, or _funnier_ answer to the usual fears about Paganism! You absolutely ROCK!
First let me say Sorry to all you Spelling nazi’s out thier
we crazy fun pagans out thier love everyone of you christions, even when you try to convert us.
ohh trust me we have our own case of radicals and nut jobs within the pagan world every belife has them.
each one of us is both Teacher as well as Student, because we all can teach oneanother also lol if your kid reads Harry Potter or plays Dungens & Dragons he or she is not going to become a devil worshiper nor is he/she going to say i’m a pagan now.
As to the wearing of hooded robes its just ritual garb that some, not all of us wear to be afraid of hooded robes is the same as being afraid of any priestly garments.
No we Dont Sacrafice Animals Nor Virgins! Sorry got to say this Do you know how hard it is to Find a 18 year old concenting virgin these days :p
and on a final note
if any of you christions wish to know what a pagan ritual is like go to a roman cathalic mass its close enuff just without the hoods on the robes, i hope the person who wrote first isnt scared of christion monks being they were hooded robes as well…
“christions”
Isn’t that the fundamental subatomic particle of religious belief?
I am an eclectic Neopagan with Celtic tendencies. I have found both Christians and Pagans don’t always treat eachothers faith with much respect and there is plenty of stereotyping and blaming and who killed who going on. I love my Christian friends and family and respect their faith and I have always taken the position that no matter how committed anyone is to perceiving me as an enemy to them due to my Paganism I will never be that thing. Your viewpoint reminds me to stay on the right side of this thing and not assume someone is hostile to me because of their faith, thanks.
Read this yesterday… hmmm…
My guy’s sister is Wiccan or some kind of combination of Wiccan/Buddhist, though I think she’s more in the latter these days than the former. She’s not out to get anyone (unless maybe you’re in the Tea Party and then, it’s strictly political).
Then again, there was a former online friend-turned-enemy of mine whom I haven’t seen hide nor digital hair of in years… she came from a Fundie Christian family and ditched that (keeping the “I am always right even when I change my opinions on something week to week!” attitude of Fundamentalism, of course) and the last I saw of her online, she was claiming to be into *something she called Wicca,* but it apparently allowed her and a roomate to brag on a website about putting a death-curse on someone they didn’t like (not me). All I could do upon seeing that was wonder “How does the Rule of Three apply here?”
I seriously wonder – are people who say stuff like that like, the equivalent of certain televangelists and assorted angry-”Chrisitan” types who cite obscure Old Testament passages to justify their praying for curses and death to people? It’s not like we can deny those guys exist even as we can say “I believe in Jesus and am not like that.”
If any of these “scary/spooky” sites are legit in any way (and not some scared-Christian propaganda), then they’re probably run by fluff bunnies, psuedo-goths and/or people who suffer from teh crazy worse than I do and need help.
Very funny stuff. Well done & well said.
Mr. Shore-
As a witch with animistic tendencies (no specific Pagan belief system) for the last 25 or so years, I wanted to say thank you for writing such a wonderful (and laugh out loud) piece. And this comment isn’t going to be a “this is great, but” comment-you answered the questioner perfectly, in my opinion (and, dare I say, put them in their place-*just a little bit*).
Best line: “no one gets to make gravity their bitch”. I LOVED that.
BTW-Your writing reminds me of Dave Barry (in a good way).
Hope you have a great day.
Well said!! I know many Christians, and grew up in a Christian house myself, but identify with Native American and Celtic Pagan practices, just because that is what seems right. I know these things to be benevolent, and it’s sad that so many dismiss what is really a different path to the same thing as being evil. Glad to know people like you are out there!!
love! I wouldn’t be surprised if my younger daughter embraced some form of paganism – she is very much in tune with nature and loves it to the degree that beauty in the natural world will silence her into awe. I love watching her outside with her camera – - -
As someone who’s been a Pagan for about 25 years, and as a blogger, I appreciate this post. However, like some of the other posters, I really have to question what Pagan blogs the original writer was reading. I can honestly say that I’ve never posted a single article about “people hearing voices telling them to do things, having strange accidents occur, levitating stuff” or other equally weird things.
John, I’d like to invite your worried Christian friend to stop over at my page at http://paganwiccan.about.com so he or she can get an idea of just how normal we really are. Right now my top posts are about grain harvest folklore, a state representative who is scared of funding non-Christian schools, and a meditation ritual. Really, not a bit of levitation to be found.
Pagans: just like you, but with more gods and stuff.
Thanks again for this great post!
patti
lol Made me think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az2PRonAZyY
It’s a multi-part video, but does a great job of explaining paganism to Christians.
Diane, that is some awesome powerful stuff right there!
A pretty good read actually. I come from Baptist/Methodist faith, but now realize that all religions have part of the right idea, for example; The Golden rule is worded in so many different ways, yet has the same meaning. First, harm no-one”.
As for voices, yes, I hear one in my mind. They don’t tell me to do wickedness, but I sometimes have a short discussion with them about right and wrong! I win every time too. Because the voice is me, so it’s easy to sway.
Anyways, my point is this; any religion which touts their brand of faith as the exclusive representative of God, and judges all others as unworthy, just doesn’t cut any ice with me.
Thank you John for your non anti-pagan responses. I was raised Roman-Catholic, and my family is still practicing. I have no problems with the Catholic faith, or any of Christianity. My family and friends also have no problems with my family being Wiccan. They have attended our ceremonies and holidays. I think it is a matter of having an open mind and respect for other people and religions. The world is a big place with a lot of different views. There is room for all of us!
Overall good response to your reader. Though I think some might get the wrong idea about hearing voices and wearing robes. Even if it was a joke. Nothing wrong with either of those things. Plenty of Christians have claimed to hear the word of God. Why can’t Pagan’s hear the word of their God(s)? Neither one makes the believer mentally ill.
As far as robes. Its just a garment. We wear it to distinguish between ritual time and daily life. Some go without it completely. Others always wear it during ritual. To each their own.
There really is nothing to fear about Paganism. Here’s the thing. Christianity says to “go multiply”. Not a single Christian I know wouldn’t try to convert me. Me, and most other Pagans out there, do not care what your beliefs are. We are a live and let live type of society. Reading something isn’t going to make you act upon what you read. Unless you have absolutely no will of your own, you’re safe.
If you don’t understand something in Paganism, find a Pagan and ask. Most don’t mind educating others on their beliefs. But please keep in mind that Paganism isn’t as structured as Christianity is. Joe Pagan might believe in one thing, and Sally over there doesn’t, but is still Pagan. There are many different kinds of Pagans, and each of us are unique.
Blessings, Love, and Light.
SalemWitchChild
Live & let live is a beautiful thing.
Plenty of Christians have claimed to hear the word of God. Why can’t Pagan’s hear the word of their God(s)? Neither one makes the believer mentally ill.
I agree with you, though I think the inclusion of the phrase “that tell you what to do” is worth noting. The gods and other guides and helpers that I hear from are not authoritarians, nor do they expect blind obedience. Indeed, there’s often a sort of dialogue that goes on.
I would be very concerned if someone claimed that zir gods (or guides or other spirits) were behaving toward zem in a controlling manner.
I’ve never said they speak in a controlling manner. Nor have I ever experienced that myself. Indeed its more like talking with a big brother, sister, or best friend. Matter of fact, when I speak with my lady Isis, she addresses me as Sister witch. She’s a teacher and best friend and sister all rolled into one.
“Matter of fact, when I speak with my lady Isis, she addresses me as Sister witch. She’s a teacher and best friend and sister all rolled into one.”
That’s kind of cool!
And… not all of the mentally ill hear voices.
I’m a bit cracked in the brain – bipolar disorder, even seen the inside of an in-paitient mental health clinic to deal with it and to keep myself under suicide-watch. (That was years ago), but, you know, the disorder doesn’t go away. I wind up finding myself online sometimes defending religion (all religion) from whiny anti-theist, “all religion is mental illnes” types not even so much to defend any religion as to defend *people* and I get particularly honked off when *this thing* is brought up becuase it’s just another reminder that a little brain-crackedness means that the world doesn’t see you as a Real True Human.
I might as well stay the seeking, somewhat agnostic non-churchgoing quasi-Christian that I am now, or even seek out more in the ways of *religion* and *beliefs* becuase it doesn’t matter if I have them or lose them, or what ones I have, I’ll never be a Real True Human in the eyes of people who use “mentally ill” as an insult, because the bipolar diagnosis is for life.
Yet, nope, nothing mystic has happened to me. No outside voices – everything in my head is either me arguing with myself or working out what to do with characters when I’m writing fiction. I don’t think God or the gods or whomever is out there want to torture me by giving me any visions or voices no one would believe coming from *me,* someone who is already seen as “broken” by the world at large.
“I don’t think God or the gods or whomever is out there want to torture me by giving me any visions or voices no one would believe coming from *me,* someone who is already seen as ‘broken’ by the world at large.”
I can see how this might be true. I’ve never had any “woo-woo” experiences either and I think it’s precisely because God knows that such experiences would scare the bejesus out of me. The voice in my head that I identify as coming from God tends to speak to me with a tender, gentle sort of sense of humor. It could easily be “just an aspect of my brain” and I’m actually fine with that. I figure that if God wants me to have a “woo-woo” experience, he knows where I am and otherwise, my call is simply to “love God, love neighbor.” Which is good enough for me.
As both a Pagan and a sociologist, I greatly appreciate this entry.
On the other hand, I have to wonder what your reader(s) are consuming on any given day. The vast majority of pagans I know- a group of people who range from people practicing African Diaspora religions to Native American traditional beliefs to reconstructionist paths of multiple flavors- are more concerned at any given day about how to make orange peels into household cleaner and when they have to plant their carrots. Even the ones posting more on the woo-woo end are much more like to be talking about what’s for dinner than talking about how to talk to Bathomet.
And honestly I’m not sure what difference it makes even if they do think they’re having Bathomet over for dinner. Whatever floats their boat as long as it’s not causing direct harm to people, property, or animals. I was raised Baptist. I remember there being quite a lot of strange stories on both sides of the aisle.
Bathomet? Baphomet. It’s too early for spelling, apparently.
Exactly, and I find it sad that I once bought into the whole ‘pagan fear’ thing back in the fundy days of my youth. Truly, it wasn’t until I saw how many ‘acceptable’ rituals of that faith had their roots in ancient earth religions that my eyes opened.
And then I began to see fruits of the spirit. Just like Mark T. said earlier, I found more Christ-like kindness and sincerity in the stigmatized non-Christian faith groups. So I stuck around.
And hearing voices that tell you to do things remains the exclusive domain of the insanely delusional.
You mean, like Moses, St. Teresa of Avila, and Abraham? Pagans who ‘hear voices’ aren’t delusional; they’re open to the voices of the Gods.
Over at The Wild Hunt blog, there’s a discussion about (Pagan) religious experience and pathology that you might find interesting: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2012/07/dont-pathologize-religious-experiences.html
I must be reading the wrong Pagan blogs. Most of the ones I read (including the one I write) are full of posts about love, gardening, getting kids potty-trained and how much laundry piled up while you were watching the Glee marathon.
The levitating might come in handy, though…
Love!
Brilliant John!
Very good answers.
In my own experience of over 20 years Christian ministry, along with many years of deep friendship with people of the various Pagans paths, I have to confess that I’ve been more concerned about the beliefs and practises of some of my own ‘gang’ (Christians) than the Earth-based tribes. OK there’s good and bad in all paths (indeed, if we’re honest, there’s good and bad in every single person on this planet) but I am deeply saddened when members of my own cradle religion project their inner mess and muddle onto others, and demonise them with such ease. I’ve had the privilege of beautifully spiritual relationships with Pagans, and (in my own ‘dark night’) when the Church all but abandoned me, it was Druids who held me and kept me secure – and never with an ulterior motives to make me one of them.
Bright blessings to all who are engaged in this fascinating thread.
Mark T
ps. Thank you John, for floating my book!
Mark T, your post was just what I needed today.
Great post.
@Angela De Benedetto Fioresi – You summoned him. Bring out the goat!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=325923134152114&set=a.325911994153228.72964.112811662129930&type=3&theater
Would you believe me if I told you that I have desperately been trying to find your page on FB for the last ten minutes and bam! up pops your post on my wall.
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