I was recently contacted by an e-friend who asked if I might write a few words of support and love for the members of two Facebook groups for which he serves as admin, Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) Cult Survivors and Do Right Hyles-Anderson.
If you’re unfamiliar with the beliefs and practices of the Independent Fundamental Baptists, some of them are:
→ The King James Version is the only true Word of God; all other translations of the Bible are the work of the devil. Meant to be taken literally, the KJV is inspired, inerrant, infallible, and the supreme and final authority in all things. It is therefore literally true that God created the world in six 24-hour days; Satan is real, the enemy of God, and the instigator of all false religions; the theory of evolution is unscriptural and therefore without merit; hell is a real place where all who die without having accepted Christ as their Savior suffer consciously being roasted alive for eternity, and so on.
→ Each IFB church is wholly autonomous and free from any outside governance. Its pastor is divinely appointed and accountable to no earthly authority. He speaks for God, and God alone may judge him. To question the sovereignty of the pastor is to disturb God’s order and invite upon oneself separation from the church, and therefore from the very source of salvation and hope.
→ Men alone are suited to be the head of home and church.
→ For a woman to be pleasing to God she must always and in all things remain perfectly submissive, first to her father and then to her husband. The primary function of a woman is to have children, who then become her mission field.
→ It is sinful for a woman to dress in any way that might cause a man to spiritually stumble by having even the slightest lustful thought.
→ Human life begins at conception. Every abortion, without exception, is murder.
→ Homosexuals are evil perverts who despise God and should be kept away from society generally and children especially. There is no appreciable moral distinction between homosexuality and bestiality, incest, child molestation or rape.
→ Black people bear the indelible and wretched curse of the “mark of Cain.”
→ Christians are called to remain steadfastly separate from the world and its sinful practices and temptations, such as movies, dancing, and any music with an addictive rock beat.
→ Educating children at home or in IFB K-12 schools is necessary in order to protect them from the knowledge and ways of a fallen and corrupt world.
By way of justifying infant “training” and the continued “submission of the will” of children, IFB parents point to these lines in The Book of Proverbs:
- Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. (Pr 23:14)
- The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. (Pr 29:15)
- Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Pr 22:15)
- He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes [early on; speedily]. (Pr 13:24)
- Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. (Pr 19:18)
- The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil. (Pr 20:30)
To Train Up a Child, by fundamentalist Christian minister Michael Pearl and his wife Debi, is very popular within the IFB. This guide to “consistently rewarding every transgression with a switching” (from the book’s introduction) has sold over 670,000 copies. Here are some quotes from the book:
These truths [of this book] are . . . the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules, the same technique God uses to train his children.
If you have to sit on him to spank him then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally. Accept no conditions for surrender. No compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final.
If God’s love is expressed by the “whippings” He gives, then can we not love our children enough to chasten them unto holiness? I have heard a rebellious teenager say, “If they only loved me enough to whip me.”
But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up. For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.
She then administers [to a three-year-old] about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, “Johnny, clean up your mess.”
On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again.
One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies).
Select your instrument according to the child’s size. For the under one year old, a little, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (striped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective.
IFB takes the “I” in its title extremely seriously; they are nothing if not independent. For this reason IFB churches vigorously renounce the idea that IFB constitutes a denomination: each church, they hold, is a kingdom unto itself and obliged to cooperate with exactly no other church body, IFB or otherwise.
The Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life puts IFB members at 2.5% of Americans. This means that there are approximately 7.85 million IFBs in America today. It’s unlikely there isn’t an IFB church within a half-hour drive from your house.
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To members of the Facebook groups mentioned above:
Our characters are forged in the crucible of what we survive. In surviving the worst survivors of IFB have become the best. The writings that I’ve read from former IFBs are some of the strongest testimonies to the strength and decency of the human spirit that I’ve ever come across. I appreciate being asked to offer you guys a word of support, but you should be offering support to me and anyone else lucky enough to hear what you have to say. You’re the power. You’re the strength. It’s you who are singing the songs that need to be heard.
The one thing I do want to say for anyone just making their way out of the darkness of IFB is this: that you once so thoroughly bought into IFB is a sign of your strength, not your weakness. Beside the fact that you were likely born into IFB and so never chose to believe anything about it one way or another, your allegiance to IFB means nothing more than that you love. You love passionately, deeply, and inexorably. And like everyone else in the world you want that love to mean something, to be incorporated into and desired by something worthy of it. And what can possibly be more worthy of a person’s love than God and family?
You brought the goods to the table. You showed up, ready to play. You brought the best of yourself. You brought all of yourself.
You gave. You trusted. You loved, and loved, and loved some more. You loved when you had no more love to give.
You loved when the cost of that love was to negate the best parts of yourself.
You did what you were supposed to do: you sacrificed yourself.
It was they who didn’t truly commit to the truths upon which they claimed to be basing their lives. It was they who lied—first to themselves, and then to you.
They didn’t sink deep enough. They didn’t give over their will over to God. They didn’t sacrifice who they were.
They kept what they wanted. They kept what they needed. They kept what worked for them.
They pretended to be something they weren’t. They insisted upon that ignoble facade despite the too-clear harm it was causing. For their own dark reasons they kept that wicked dance going.
They lied.
They lied, they lied, they lied.
And they used the best of who you are, and the best of what you have to give, to feed those lies.
They used you as fodder in the war between themselves and everything they fear.
And because of your trusting love for them, you let them. You served them that way. You loved them in that (and a million other) ways. And in a real and important sense you will always love them. And out of that love you gave them the best of who you are to do with whatever they felt they needed to. And if they failed to treat that greatest of gifts with the sacrosanct respect it deserves, then shame on them.
If they really loved God they would have loved you and everyone else in a manner befitting that love: properly, carefully, consistently. It really is that simple.
And despite all you’ve been through, here you are now! Dented, maybe, a little—but definitely not broken.
Slightly wobbly, but still on your feet.
Shaken, not stirred.
You were right; they were wrong; and no sane person in the world would say otherwise. And screw ‘em if they do.
You have left them now to themselves, and stepped into your own world. A world where you say what is and isn’t good. Where you write the rules. Where you claim what’s true.
Finally, now, it’s time for you to dance to your own song.
And how marvelous will be your dance.
How you will soar.
Thank you for being so strong.
———–> The letter above as a downloadable pdf <———–
By way of learning more about IFB:
→ Hyles-Anderson College is one of the many unaccredited IFB colleges to which IFB families send their teens post-Home High. A list of IFB colleges is here. (Interesting note: IFB colleges grant leading IFB pastors honorary Ph.D.’s, which then allows them to homeworklessly claim the title “Dr.”)
Hyles-Anderson is an “outreach ministry” of First Baptist Church (FBC) of Hammond, IN. In many ways ground zero for all things IFB, First Baptist is one of the largest churches in America. It’s more like a state government with many outlying dominions than it is simply a church.
This past July Jack Schaap, pastor of First Baptist Church and Chancellor of Hyles-Anderson, was discovered to be having an adulterous affair with a then 16-year-old girl. An FBC deacon found on Schaap’s cell phone a photo of Schaap and the girl kissing; Schaap admitted to the affair; he was fired from the pastorship of FBC. The F.B.I. is currently investigating the situation. (You can read more about the story here, here, or here.)
Here is pastor Jack Schaap speaking at FBC Hammond’s Youth Conference 2010. His talk is titled A Polished Shaft.
From 1959 until his death in 2001, FBC was run and utterly dominated by legendary pastor Jack Hyles. From Hyle’s Wiki entry:
Jack Hyles built First Baptist up from fewer than a thousand members to a membership of 100,000. In 1993 and again in 1994, it was reported that 20,000 people attended First Baptist every Sunday, making it the most attended Baptist church in the United States. In 2001, at the time of Hyles death, 20,000 people were attending church services and Sunday school each week.
When Jack Hyles died, the FBC dynasty was inherited by his son-in-law, Jack Schaap. Jack Schaap is married to Hyles’s daughter Cindy.
Another of Jack Hyles’ daughters, Linda Hyles Murphrey, recently sent shock waves throughout the IFB by doing the unthinkable: publicly talking about her father. You can watch Ms. Hyles’ talk here, and/or read its transcript here. Highlights from her talk include:
My dad lived a double life: one of a righteous family man and dynamic speaker in the public eye; but one of sordid sexual secrets privately. Secrets that only my siblings, and me, and my mom knew. He hated my mom—hated her; treated her terribly; abused her and even turned his own children against our mother. We hated her. He told us she was crazy. We thought to make him happy, we’d hate her too.
Our home was filled full of turmoil, hatred, stress, strife, and as a little girl, it was isolating, it was intense, and it was frightening. He had affairs. He had a mistress for many years, the wife of a Sunday School teacher. [He] built her family a beautiful home right around the corner from our house. You could see their family from our back door.
I felt like I had one main responsibility as a child. It was simple but daunting; and that was to keep all the secrets. There were so many. You see he had taught us that the best way to please God was to please him, because he was God’s man. And he taught us that to please him, we had to keep all the secrets. We could never even tell our best friends what went on in our home because we might be the cause of the destruction of his ministry.
I know I wasn’t going to be happy unless I was free, but I knew I wasn’t going to be free unless I could muster up some courage to get out of there. I had to cling to, and act upon, that tiny shred of courage in order to finally leave a cult; the only friends I’d ever known; my childhood connections; my history; my family. Knowing that in doing so, I would finally have what I had longed for my entire life, and that was freedom [and] truth.
To learn why David Hyles, the only son of Jack Hyles, did not (as would be customary) inherit the reins of the FBC dynasty from his father, listen to the audio transcript of Preying From the Pulpit, a five-part series about FBC produced in May 1993 by WJBK of Detroit, Michigan. (Short version: David is an out-of-control sex addict who had innumerable adulterous affairs at the various FBC churches he has pastored—and continues to work at—across the country.)
UPDATE: In its January 2013 issue, Chicago Magazine published Let Us Pray: Big Trouble at First Baptist Church.
→ In April of last year 20/20 aired the results of its year-long investigation of IFB. You can watch that show here, and/or read ABC’s condensed print version of the show here. Among those featured in the report are Tina Anderson, very recently in the news. (Researchers digging into the Tina Anderson story will appreciate finding her original testimony to the Concord, NH police department.)
→ Last spring Anderson Cooper 360° aired Ungodly Discipline, a show about the child abuse within IFB. (Part 1; Parts 2 & 3.) Part 1 looks at To Train Up a Child and includes an interview with its authors. Featured in Part 2 is Hephzibah House, one of the many private IFB-operated homes across the country to which IFB families send their “troubled” teens to live and be disciplined back into obedience to God. Because they are owned and operated by churches, such homes are typically exempt from any sort of licensure or government oversight. Introduced in Part 2 of Ungodly Discipline is former Hephzibah resident Susan Grotte. Ms. Grotte’s website is Hephzibah Girls; her personal testimony about her experience at Hephzibah House is here.
→ Jocelyn Zichterman is featured in both the 20/20 and Anderson Cooper 360° episodes referenced above. Founder of the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) Cult Survivors Facebook page, her website is Freedom From Abuse. Her book I Fired God: My Life Inside—and Escape from—the Secret World of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Cult is out in Spring 2013.
→ Paradise Recovered is a new and superbly realized independent film about a young woman tentatively making her way in the world after being kicked out of her IFB home. Highly recommended.
→ StopBaptistPredators.org takes seriously its mission of “shining light on Baptist clergy sex abuse.” You’re likely to share that mission once you visit this site.
→ Blog on the Way is one of the best online resources for assisting victims of church abuse in Christian Fundamentalism. (Note its heart-stopping sidebar, The Christian Fundamentalist Roll Call of Shame: Child Abusers in Christian Fundamentalism.)
→ Written by ex-IFB pastor Bruce Gerencser, the outstanding blog The Way Forward offers a clear-eyed insider’s view of IFB.
→ If you search for Independent Fundamental Baptists on the very popular site Stuff Fundies Like you get these posts.
→ Why Not Train Up a Child is just what it claims to be: a clearinghouse of information and arguments refuting the teachings of Michael and Debi Pearl.
→ Vyckie Garrison’s exemplary blog No Longer Quivering, is a gathering place for women escaping and recovering from spiritual abuse. Garrison offers a wealth of sensitively presented information and insight about the Quiverfull movement, popular and growing amongst Christian fundamentalists, which posits that truly godly families should “trust the Lord” with their family planning.
→ The patriarchal, ego-fortifying, psyche-destroying, soul-crushing, domineering, brain-washing, fear-inducing, manipulative, spiritually abusive world of the fundamentalism I know is a deeply affecting letter I published on my blog from a woman raised IFB.
→ Though not particularly brief A Brief Survey of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches, by IFB enthusiast Cooper P. Abrams III (whose colorful website is Bible Truth), offers insight into IFB’s history and mindset.
→ Contradicting IFB’s claim of not being a denomination is IFB umbrella organization Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International (FBFI). Though the bulk of FBFI’s website is unsurprisingly closed to outsiders, its available constitution is a comprehensive expression of IFB beliefs. (The FBFI is not to be confused with the IBFNA, or Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America, also not the site of a denomination.) Another great overview of IFB beliefs is the What We Believe page on the website of Sword of the Lord, a main and influential IFB publication.
→ Here is a map showing links to more IFB churches than you can shake a Bible at.
→ Finally, if you’re looking for an alternative Christianity to IFB, consider Unfundamentalist Christians.
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The lead-in image is And Jesus Wept, by photographer Scott Moss.
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
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No matter what awful things you find, there are worse ones out there
I’m an IFB church survivor, and even I am shocked at times about the abuses of those churches.
you’ll need brain bleach as well…
I always felt like a hot shower and a stiff drink were in order after such an experience.
Good luck with the scrubbing.
Thank you for this article! A friend pointed me to it today and it was so encouraging to read. My early life felt crushed by the IFB. In every environment I was in – home, school, church, there was abuse of all kinds and it was always done and covered up in God’s name. I didn’t know any other way, and believed it all when I was young, then ran from it all, including God, when I was old enough to realize that there was no hope in it. I was hopeless and suicidal when I discovered that God might possibly not be who I had been taught about. Eventually, I came to know more truth about him and wanted to follow him. Years passed and I blocked the IFB world and memories out till recently, when a lot of the past abuse began to haunt me. Facing some of the things that happened have been the darkest moments of my adult life and made me question all over if God is good, can he be trusted, who are these people who abuse so severely yet claim God’s name? It confuses me to see how welcome pedophiles are in that world, even in leadership and pastoral positions, yet the victims of sexual abuse are deemed worthless. Why is that? How can it be?
From what I know about cults, the IFB fits the definition of one. I also had some spiritually abusive experiences at the hands of fundamentalists when I was in high school and college (though the abuse I suffered was more subtle than what’s described in the article). I think the only thing that saved me was that I attended an Episcopalian high school, and the chaplain there was a wonderful man who showed me another way to be Christian. His example not only kept me sane at the time, but also planted a seed that sprouted some years later, when I finally stumbled upon the liberal United Methodist congregation where I have now been a member for eight years.
I should add that I attended a very mainstream UM church at the time. It was the youth pastor who was the problem. He was basically a good man, but it was his “really bad theology” (as my current pastor once put it) that screwed me up. I also fell in with a bunch of fundamentalist kids at college, and that continued the damage that my youth pastor had already done.
Hi there,
I have lived this. I am tying this from four blocks away from some of the most horrifying spiritual abuse on the planet. There was other kinds of abuse also….but I wont go there. However, I will say this: 15 years after officially leaving, not only the IFB, but all things Baptist. I was thrown out of one of the support groups mentioned above for insisting on this: there is grace for the IFB and it is my responsibility to show grace to those who are still part of that group. Grace, not excuses-because there are none, grace because it is the only thing that will bring any hope and relief to those who believe in that way. Grace, because it is only grace that has enabled me to deal with a life devasted by the teachings of the IFB. Grace because it is only grace that has enabled me to come out of the IFB and to come out as a gay man. It is not easy to live this way, there is a part of me that wants to go and pound some people to a pulp and then throw them into a meat grinder. Grace says to bring my entire being, even the violent part to God for healing beacuse I, and they, are still redeemable, made in the image of God, and dearly loved by the same.
I hear you, Drew. There’s a writer, Anne Lamott, you might like that says, “Not forgiving is like drinking the rat poison and then waiting for the rat to die.” I’ve seen some of that on some of those sites. There’s a distinction between an apologist and someone trying to foster legitimate healing as it sounds like you were trying to do. Not everyone is in a place where they can see that.
As a recovering IFBer, I’m familiar with the “forgive and forget” mantra that the IFB preaches to the victims of the most heinous of crimes. “Nobody’s perfect. We’re all human. Sin happens. But you (rape victim, abused wife, shunned family, bullied and assaulted teenager, berated congregation) you need to forgive. Too often wrong doing is never acknowledged, mistakes never admitted, crimes never punished, justice never served, truth never told, restitution never made, forgiveness never asked, penance never done, nor repentance ever evident from the abuser, but the victim is told (usually on the heels of their bringing the abuse to light) they need to forgive and forget and move on. This is not healthy. This approach lacks what mainstream psychologists and therapists understand is required for healing: validation of feelings, space for grieving, permission to be angry, time for healing, and understanding that recovery is a process that often leads to eventual acceptance of what is, a letting go, and which, hopefully, brings some peace.
Some people confuse forgiveness with condoning what happened or saying “that’s ok.” It’s not ok. What was done is and was not ok. What continues to happen is not ok. Reform is desperately needed. But this does not mean there is not a place for the grace of which you speak. My dear friend rephrases Lamott’s quote this way, “Forgiveness is the gift we give ourselves.” Or: I’m not going to let what happened ruin my life any longer than it already has by being consumed with hate, fear, dread, anger, worry or bitterness.
Learning to feel compassion for people who have harmed us is one of the greatest tests of our character. It is the great test of our ego and the human condition. Jesus knew this: “What good is it if you love only your friends and greet only your own people? Even the tax collectors do that. I say love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” How much harder indeed is it to love our enemies.
The Dali Lama tells a similar story about a monk who was taken captive by the Chinese. He was tortured and eventually released. When asked what he feared most while in his captivity the monk demurred several times, but eventually giving in to the question he said: I was most afraid I would lose my compassion for the Chinese.
These are important lessons we have to learn for ourselves. It’s not right to tell a victim that they must get over it and move on. It is indifferent to their experience. It lacks compassion and understanding and support, the very things they need most. But ultimately, this is the journey within the work of healing and therapy: to get to the place where one who has been harmed can find peace with what is and make progress forward.
I have permission from John to share this which I wrote about getting to that point in my own journey. http://leap-of-fate.com/2011/10/11/higher-ground/
Thank you for sharing your truth, Drew and blessings on your journey. Your grace is welcome here.
Hello again,
There have been times in my life where I could not say what I said above. You are right; there has to be validation of feelings, and all the rest. I just know the pain that a person who leaves the IFB feels initially (not to mention the secret thoughts along the lines of: maybe I have committed the unforgiveable sin or whatever) and I so wanted to hold them and say that it does not stay that way. You can, like C.S. Lewis, be surprised by joy. You are right though, there is a time and a place for that and perhaps that was not a good thing to say at that time. Perhaps it would have been better to tell them that their anger is legitimate, ok, and a sign of health-they should experience it fully. (and then just smile to myself when I think of the surprises that are coming their way when they start to heal and actually enjoy life again!)
Drew – for what it’s worth, IMO, you’re on PRECISELY the right path. Not the easy path, but the right path. <3
that stuff is Nuckin’ Futz!!!
As my mom pointed out the other day, Fundamentalism is based on FEAR. How can we know if we’re doing stuff “right” if we don’t have a lot of rules?!? And we HAVE to do things “right” or God won’t let us into heaven! So sad because Jesus came so that we would be under grace and not have to follow all the rules in the OT to be “saved.” We put ourselves right back in that prison He died to get us out of… And we put ourselves back in because freedom is scary. Not knowing is scary. (I won’t even go into the power that comes with making lots of rules. That can be saved for another day!)
“freedom is scary. Not knowing is scary.”
It’s astounding how true that is, to one degree or another. So when someone hugs us and says I have all the answers, all you have to do is listen and obey. We believe or want to believe.
Otherwise we’re running around like Mulder being chased by aliens…or the government…
Oh! And she likes the X-files! Kudos for working in a Mulder reference!
Like is a mild word. I ♥ Duchovny circa 1994. And I ♥ Gillian circa 1997.
John thanks for writing this. I won’t go into a long post on how the IFB cult has damaged people’s lives. But the more exposure that is placed on this destructive cult, the better.
Don’t forget the toxicity of sexual liscense in seeping into doctrines. The pretty much ‘anything goes’ idea is why society has a far more pronounced appetite and focus on sex that there is an explosion in sex trafficking even in the US. It explains why French photographers and magazines think its nothing to take and publish pics of Kate Middleton topless and why there are people trying to get and publish thought to exist pics of William and Kate having sex . Should the church be encouraging that appetite or providing a counterpoint to it? Was reading Jesus’ rebuke to some of the the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 telling them they were in grave spiritual danger over their loosey goosey attitudes around sex. Society these days is so bad now a well known director has made a film around adult sibling incestand says its ok.
Fundamentalism and intolerance doesn’t fix these problems, though. We don’t have to guess; we can look at real world societies which handle these issues differently and see what happens. In Scandinavian countries which are extremely open-minded about sex, there is a much lower rate of teen pregnancy and STDs. In red states which follow a “Biblical” view of sex, the divorce rate is higher than in Blue states, which follow a “liberal” view of sex. Nations like Afganistan are extremely intolerant of any sort of sexual license, but it doesn’t make them nice places to live; they are the opposite. And women and children are still raped there, despite the intolerance. Intolerance does not fix problems, it simply makes them harder to respond to by making it illegal to talk about them. Pastors of strict churches are more likely to rape children than pastors of liberal churches, not less, because it’s so unthinkable that no one ever questions it.
Eeek, noun/verb disagreement alert! I changed what I was saying in the middle of writing and didn’t properly revise my sentence.
Oppression, inequality and exploitation comes in many packages. Swinging from one pendulum end to the other of the same problem is not the answer.
As much as society might have issue with taking sexuality too lightly, this is hardly the problem (like any) part of (likely any) religious institution has at the moment. Religion (or at least religious institutions) seems uniformly on the overly-prudish side of the issue.
Thus maynbe a bit off the comment thread but I have earnestly asked my self many times just when is it both appropriate and neceessary for a civil society to protect people from the damage inflicted by so-called religions? By this post what John has reported and others have echoed certainly prompts the question. Now don’t start bleating about freedom of religion because if that was absolute we’d allow polygamy, stoning and female genital mutilation. Thankfully those egregious pratices are illegal in our country. But we are poised to enact anti-abortion legilation that makes NO provision for preserving the life of a raped woman and those who promote this do it based on religious grounds. And we allow cults to operate that result in mass suicides ( Heaven’s Gate) or violence, death and sexual abuse (David Koresh in Waco). Some parrents refuse to treat thier chikdren’s illnesses based on religious prejudice.
These are just a few examples of religious dogma which is dangerous and has been put to foul use. Preaching violence and hatred for gays, teaching parents to abuse children, murdering abortion providers…..people interpret spritual material in savage ways which no non-believer would tolerate. When thus occurs legal means must be found to do what the victims can’t do and put a stop to it.
I’m hearing your concern otter, as I also wonder the same thing. While no one reasonable is seeking state-sanctioned religious expression, why is that religious grounds can be invoked in such overt cases of abuse?
I would argue it’s because, although the US wasn’t founded on Christian ideals, the state and the Christian church have still been in bed together (pardon the expression) since the beginning. This goes all the way back to Rome, when Constantine was converted and began giving churches tax exemptions and other state-sanctioned special privileges.
Today, practitioners of the Christian faith are very privileged in this country. Major Christian festivals are also bank holidays. All of our presidents were and are Christians of one stripe or another. Being Christian is “the norm,” despite our so-called melting pot of a nation. Although everyone on paper enjoys religious freedom, it’s obvious that we are lifted up above the rest.
Thus, I think dogma and behavior like John describes above would be viciously suppressed in any Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. communities because they are “the other” in our nation’s eyes. But Christians have political and social privilege, and part of that is the ability to do things with less fear of repercussion, and the ability to smooth things over even if the atrocities are uncovered.
People have learned, simply by observing, that their Christianity can be invoked at strategic moments to protect their personal ideals. They can masquerade as “concerned children of Christ” worried about the “future of our nation.” It’s as simple–and complicated–as that.
You nailed it, Matt. Some CINO’s (Christians-In-Name-Only) are throwing their beliefs in everyone elses face. In their close-minded arrogance they ignore the validity of other beliefs and refuse to perform essential professional duties if they judge them to be in conflict with their personal interpretation of scripture. A Buddhist clerk who refused to grant a hunting license would get precious little sympathy or support, but a devout bigot who refused a same sex couple a marriage license in New York (where SSM is permitted by law) got vocal support and was re-elected. A doctor in NJ refused to prescribe HIV medication and pharmacists refuse to sell birth control. It’s happening all over.
The reason I cited examples from other religious traditions was to show by contrast how deeply rooted are our cultural assumptions regarding Christian privilege.
I am SO using “CINO” now!
Otter rules.
WOW!!! I read and read and read and WOW is about all I can come up with! Beating babies! Pulling an infants hair!!!! Dear Heavenly Father PLEASE Bless and Save the Children!!!!! I am most definitely Sharing this!!!!
This is extremely common still — it’s not just this one church type.
Arnold, Paul Simon was quoting Julius Caesar, “Men willingly believe what they wish.” And John, I spent a bit wandering around your blog last night… what ever happened to your dad?
oh this is so sad….
Fact is, whether or not you all care to admit it, EVERY denomination has its own idiosyncrasies and prejudices, and EVERY church abuses the scriptures in pursuit of its own agenda. The vast majority of churches are run more like exclusive membership country clubs, with elders and church councils presuming to pick-and-choose who may and may not enter God’s house, right. Fact is, Christ wouldn’t recognize 98% of the churches assembled in his name.
You may be right, Charles. But it seems like you missed the point. Mr. Shore’s examples go beyond junk doctrine like the prosperity gospel. What he describes is church hierarchy taking a pond of flesh from their congregants. You may argue that all religion does damage somehow. But how often does a church do the degree of physical, emotional, and spiritual harm outlined in this post? Fundamentalist branches of religion (not just Christianity) do immense harm to flesh and blood individuals. Within Christianity, the IFB is clearly in a special class of messed up.
Thank you, David.
Dude, no. You sound a bit like the abusers I’ve talked to in court, who say things like “Well every family abuses their children in SOME way.” No, no, not all families are abusive, and not all churches are either. My own church admits all people into God’s house and all baptized Christians of any denomination to communion. I’m not sure but a few years ago they were discussing letting people who weren’t even baptized but had just formed the intention to be baptized take communion. Our big church argument is whether the priest uses too much incense for some people’s asthma, and no one is under any illusion it’s a religious argument, it’s just a matter of one guy’s preference versus one guy’s health requirements, which is most likely going to be settled by having incense at one service and not at the other.
One of the things I love about our UCC church is we have an open communion table, young or old, gay or straight, baptized or not, member or visitor, Catholic or Protestant or none of the above – all are welcome and none are turned away from the bread of God’s table.
So very different from my IFB days, when the minister made it very clear that no one who wasn’t saved was to participate. They would have everyone bow their heads and close their eyes and say, “If you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord because you have confessed Jesus Christ as your personal Savior – raise your hand.” The minister and the deacons looked to see who did and didn’t raise their hands. Then he said, “If you raised your hand you are welcome to partake of communion. If you didn’t raise your hand, and would like to know how you can make Jesus the Lord of your life, come see one of us. But we would ask that you remain seated while communion is served.” And then he’d go into how anyone who “partook of the Lord’s Supper unadvisedly” could be “in the fear and judgement of the Lord.”
This included if you had any unconfessed sins even as a believer.
Christy, I’m loving the contrast of the two.
Could anyone say briefly the basic difference between UCC, UU, and Unity?
It’s my very lightly informed opinion that the UCC is a mainline Christian denomination and the other two are not.
I am not familiar with the first two, but I would define Unity as a metaphysical Christian community. They teach that everyone is an individual expression of God, and that God is All That Is, and is not a literal being. It is only our belief in our separation with God that causes the misery in our individual and collective experience. Jesus is emulated as a Great Master and everyone is encouraged to live as he did. If you have ever heard of “A Course In Miracles”, that is something you will find at Unity. The few I have been to we’re quite lovely. My personal preference is a litte more out there, however!
Our UCC church teaches the Course in Miracles and has one clergy member whose area of expertise is mysticism.
We had a baptism this morning, so I can copy the Statement of our Church’s beliefs from the bulletin.
We believe that all people are included in God’s unconditional love and grace.
We believe in Jesus Christ whose life revealed God’s love at work in the human family.
We believe in the Holy Spirit as the power by which we are brought into closer harmony with our Creator.
Therefore,
We strive to follow the path of Jesus Christ, while recognizing other pathways to the Divine.
We encourage each person’s spiritual journey, embracing a variety of spiritual disciplines.
We understand that the words we use to express our faith are to be lived out by loving and compassionate action.
We take the Bible seriously, not literally; finding more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty.
And finally, we agree to disagree, unite to serve, and resolve to love. Thanks be to God!
I don’t know how well this represent all of the UCC. We are also jointly affiliated with the Disciples of Christ.
I’m starting to think I may manage a church service without a panic attack! It has to be inclusionary or it won’t work for me. I’m going to try the local UCC, Unity, and Episcopalian churches, and maybe I’ll find something to hold onto.
I worked for a Southern Baptist megachurch for 9 years as a maid/custodian…I am now a Unitarian Universalist. it is about all the organized religion I can tolerate, and it fits me very well…I still love Jesus, but the churches in the US, most of them, have gone far to the right, and we just don’t see eye to eye. I wish them well, and I go where I am respected, and in a faith tradition which is better suited to my personality…
I visited one of these churches with a friend and couldn’t believe some of the things that were preached. When the minister said, “We’re not one of those churches that preaches love,” I wanted to say, “Well, you must not be Christian then.”
Yeah. It’s like a badge of honor for some reason. I hazard a guess it has to do with viewing compassion as weakness and punishment and retributive justice as strength.
There was also a huge anti-hippie push back in Fundamentalism during the 70′s. That’s when private Fundamentalist schools began to pop up and Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority. So, when “peace and love” became synonymous with counter-culture revolutionaries, they distanced themselves from anything remotely smelling of that. We were forbidden from wearing anything made of blue jean material at our private IFB school because we were told it was “sinful” (read: long-haired, pot-smoking, rebellious hippies wore it, so – we don’t.) This is also one way the IFB maintained its characteristic “separateness from the world.” We weren’t to smell like, dress like or act like “the world.” So…that might be part of it.
The World. I think that phrase, and Worldly People, are the two I most loathe. Anyone from that background can hear the tone of voice in their head denoting the haughty superiority.
Like The Plague or The IRS. Is it possible to have full religious denominations to be predicated on paranoia (or some like version of mental illness)?
See, I love that phrase, but in its original context, in which it was understood to refer primarily to money. Funny how the people you’re talking about using it never seem to use it to mean “You shouldn’t worry too much about making money, because trying to make money at the expense of doing the right thing is a serious temptation.”
Yeah, there’s an entire vocabulary: The World, Worldly, Secular, The Flesh, Fleshly, Fleshly Instincts, Sins of the Flesh, Carnal, Debase. In my neck of the woods it generally meant sinful – but in a hedonistic, orgiatic spectacularly sexual kind of way. As in: Do not be tempted by the World for if you give in to your fleshly instincts you will surely perish and be forever separated from the love of God.
As if all the world around is thumbing their noses at God, living shallow, self-absorbed lives, and having a wild, sinful ride!
I learned how to run away from humanity in fear and judgment in my cult, then I learned how to move toward humanity in curiosity and empathy beyond the cult. You can guess the fruits of my spirit changed dramatically from that shift. As did my whole life.
And it’s not become a orgy of sinful delights, amazingly enough. (what am I doing wrong?!
if I had to guess, your problem is, most likely, that you are using simple math …
to achieve a successful orgy of sinful delights, one needs to use special algorithms factoring in age, height, BMI, number of hours without sleep, income, # of dealers on speed-dial, and precise definitions of your sex and drugs and rock’n'roll.
for advanced students, I would refer you to Keith Richard’s essay, “How I’ve Managed Not to Die in a Pool of My Own Vomit.” Stephen Hawking wrote the forward, if I recall.
I….I cannot put into words how adorable you are.
For once, I am speechless.
vee haf vays to make you talk.
Funny how that happens. I entered a very conservative Christian sect when I was 18, before I had any real time as an adult. For years, while sitting in church, I heard testimonies from others who had lived in the ‘world’ or had ‘backsliden’ and taken part in the world. Now that I am considered part of the world, I’m wondering where the damn party is that everyone was talking about. Spent last night studying for my modern poetry class. A gay man in a gay neighborhood in the 3rd largest city in the country on a Saturday night.
Exactly Dan! I’ve been wondering what the hell… Maybe it’s all this Midwestern air we’re breathing– we’re becoming boring!
Seriously it kinda kills me the level of fear-mongering set to rob people of their own experience with the divine. I am a ‘worldly person’ in the eyes of those who’d judge me, and yet I’m the most content, spiritually open and accepting, compassionate person I’ve ever been. I’m such a social being– all the amazing people I would never have let into my life, all the life (non-sinful variety) I’d have missed out. Someday I hope I’ll stop being sad about what I lost.
Hehe, the IRS! It IS said like that! Never thought about it. What I find so ironic is that Jesus spent more time with people of “the World” than he did with the “religious” people.
Christian fundamentalism is hardly limited to the IFB church movement. Fundamentalists can be found in EVERY denomination.
Evangelicals and Southern Baptists are every bit as fundamentalist as the IFB church movement. They scream and holler foul but if it walks, talks, and acts like a fundamentalist, it is a fundamentalist.
Most people in the IFB are theological and social fundamentalists. While many Evangelicals are not social fundamentalists they ALL are theological fundamentalists. IF they are not, then they need to stop calling themselves an Evangelical.
The core fundamentalist belief is that the Bible is an inerrant, inspired text. Most fundamentalists are also literalists and exclusivists.
Any suggestion that the IFB is some abnormal, backwater sect is simply not supported by the evidence. In the US fundamentalism affects most every denomination. Even in the liberal Episcopal church in our area there is a fundamentalist contingent.
Half of Americans think the universe was created just like the Bible says it was, 6-10 thousand years ago. This is clear evidence of the pernicious hold fundamentalism has on our country. (along with the current culture war)
I concur, Bruce, in that while Evangelicals are often less strict about dress and hair and music, even alcohol, swimming, women working, etc…the theological tenets are essentially indistinguishable. Though you might get more quotes from C.S. Lewis and Albert Mohler than from Billy Sunday and Helen Steiner Rice. As we recovering fundies say amongst ourselves: it’s gonna take a hell of a lot more than a minister who wears jeans, grows a goatee and has a Jesus fish on his car to make a meaningful difference.
I read Rick Warren’s A Purpose Driven Life, and, bless their hearts, if that book speaks to folks then more power to ‘em, but I couldn’t finish it. I put more exclamation points in the margins than in any other book I’ve read. The same try harder do more for God don’t be a disapointment message.
The wrapping is different. The theological contents are virtually the same.
I hear you. My wife and I ( then my best friend as neither of us were out to ourselves much less the public back then) got kicked out of a book study years ago while studying that book. They kept asking our opinions but didn’t really want to hear them. It was all for the best I suppose as I had read as much of that book as I could stomach by then. It was sparking some interesting conversations though that might have really went somewhere if the leadership didn’t keep shutting them down whenever it made them uncomfortable.
Bruce, to you point, this piece appeared on the Christian Post (a SBC “news” website) yesterday:
Episcopal Priest Speaks of Need to Reclaim Liberalism Within Biblical Christianity
http://www.christianpost.com/news/episcopal-priest-speaks-of-need-to-reclaim-liberalism-within-biblical-christianity–81577/
The last question in the interview is this:
“To conclude, how can Bible-believing Christians distinguish anti-Christian liberalism from those elements of liberalism that are in line with the Gospel?”
Anti-Christian liberalism has evidently taken over the Episcopal Church. So glad the SBC has made me aware of this apostacy.
Not sure I know quite what to do with that information.
If I relied on the gospel alone to build a mature adult existence, I would be missing the inspired divinity in humankind around me. I didn’t learn how to love deeply and compassionately through purely Christian channels. That I got through therapy and Buddhism. Coming back around I tie these together.
Meaning: I learned the depths of Christ’s love through non-Christian means.
Jill,
Perhaps this spirituality is what is so desperately missing in some corners of the church? In my experience, the Father and Son parts of the trinity crowd out the Holy Spirit for some believers. Their legalism and religiosity leave precious little room for the Holy Spirit to operate. I think scripture is only as helpful in our faith journey as our ability to discern it’s meaning and apply it to our lives – and that takes God’s help.
I agree, Jill. As so many others have also found, other faiths and traditions have better informed, enlightened and enriched my own. Wouldn’t it be lovely if that happened more often.
Wow to both of you– how true. It takes a lot of letting go, a lot of trust that our personal connection to our Creator is infinite, impermeable. That we will endure together.
And that God’s faith in us, as a loving parent is to their children, is strong enough to withstand questions and searching and finding the divine spark in someone of a completely different worldview. (My Hindu therapist taught me that one!)
I grew up in the American Baptist Convention – for those who were never in the Baptist church, there are many Baptists who are NOT members of independent, fundamentalist churches. Please do not lump all Baptists in that calegory.
Bob: you’re right: all Baptists shouldn’t be lumped in with IFB. (That’s why I made sure not to do that.)
I think people here are pretty consistent. I don’t lump the ABC in with IFB.
I do lump the ABC and its membership into the category of hateful, judgmental, love-less, bigots. To quote it’s leadership, General Secretary of the BWA, Denton Lotz :
“The ABC has a statement that says that homosexuality is inconsistent with the Christian lifestyle.” Further, “To characterize American Baptist Churches USA as being in favor of gay marriage goes beyond the pale! Our Policy Statement on Family Life, adopted in 1984, maintains, ‘We affirm that God intends marriage to be a monogamous, life-long, one flesh union of a woman and a man…. We affirm God’s blessing and active presence in marriage relationships…’”
The ABC was also pro-active in advocating the recent anti-gay marriage amendment here in North Carolina.
this actually makes me angry. Like VERY angry. People seriously believe this? They seriously beat their children like this in order to get them to submit? ohhh…my heart hurts.
Very powerful. Thank you.
The letter was beautiful.. I downloaded it, the other stuff -appalling.
This is serious, sad, and cruel, but ‘polished shaft’ made me laugh out loud.
It made me stare at my computer screen like it has just magically transformed into a dead cat.
You know what did crack me up, though, are the expressions of the white-suited guys sitting behind Pastor Passionately Polish. It’s such a mix of pure poker face and pure … not brightness.
Exactly. I was rather grossed out by the theater production, but the faces on the minions displayed behind him…
It made me believe that they know exactly what that’s about, and they’re saying nothing to protect their own hides.
now, don’t be hating on minions … these guys fall more into the world of ass-kissin’ toadies.
Ooh Mr. Moore, you like to parse them words, don’tcha? How ’bout sycophantic bootlicker?
(John, sorry if I’m sounding too glib. I mean no disrespect–I literally use humor to wrap my head around things my mind cannot face head-on. I still feel like my heart wants to explode out of my chest for what is happening in this– and many other–worlds.)
“sycophantic bootlicker” … love it, definitely will repeat that phrase and pretend it’s my own, thanks!!
I vote for an ass-kickin’ toadies, boot-lickin’ sycophant throw down competition one day right here in ye olde John Shore’s virtual living room.
(Those are awesome!)
HAHA! You don’t even know how much laughter keeps me sane.
(because I can picture a throwdown that involves some boots… and ass-kicking… and quiet little complicit toadies.)
“It’s such a mix of pure poker face and pure … not brightness,” is one of your finest sentences.
Good grief. I don’t usually watch John’s videos because my computer is in a room with other people, but after your comment I had to watch it. It’s… well first of all I couldn’t finish watching it… but man, the guy should make porn videos for a living, he missed his calling!
Oh, aberrant psychology has a way of leaking out in uncomfortable ways sometimes, Allie. OR, he’s such a pervert he knew exactly what he was doing and got his jollies doing it.
I had decided I didn’t want to hear what that fool had to say, but your comment made me go back to it….and it didn’t make me laugh. It made me cringe at the sheer evil, maniacal craziness.
As for the visual imagery……I don’t know how to respond except with the incredulity of raised eyebrows.
Reading about this abuse makes me want to believe in hell again. May God have mercy on their souls and those of their victims.
Raylene is clearly a person with a grudge, I know Ty Duncan and Trisha LaCroix and I can vouche for their character. I have born witness to the hours and hours they have spent comforting victims of this abuse and providing resources. Raylene take your false charges elsewhere. Thank you Ty and Trisha for all the volunteer work you do for those who are suffering and abused in the Body of Christ.
FYI there are a couple more Jill’s showing up out here recently, and this comment is not *me* (the one that won’t go away!) so to clarify I will start putting my last name out here now.
Exactly. The Bible has a thing or two to say about bearing false witness against your neighbor. And that’s precisely what she’s doing. I won’t stand for it.
Jill, Thank you for your support. I am humbled and grateful for this opportunity to help others.
“Raylene”…
I am the owner of the “Do Right Hyles-Anderson Group.” In the group this morning, you stated that Jocelyn Zictherman was the source for this article. You also stated there that people should know that Jocelyn Zictherman is working for victims behind the scenes. Ty and I both stopped the conversation you were initiating because we will not have things posted about her in our group.
My group, “Do Right Hyles Anderson” does not support or affiliate ourselves with Jocelyn Zictherman.
Jocelyn was providing information to the FBI at the beginning of our group. This is true. Did she hurt victims…not that I am aware. However, I DO NOT agree with how she handled things and dealt with victims. Do I believe everything she told me and my admins? No. Which is why she and her family are eliminated from our group. Which is why we have distanced ourselves from her. And which is why I made immediate changes once I made the decision to cut ties with her. Now the group which is aligned with grace with no personal motivation.
Ty did not ban you from the group. So this too is false. I deleted you from the group. The reason for my decision is that I looked in the history and saw that many MANY things you posted caused fights within the group. You were disrespectful to people and I had many complaints about you. Therefore, I chose to delete but not ban you from the group. And based on this comment, and the lies within, I see that I made the right decision.
The focus of the “Do Right Hyles Anderson” is solely about victims…giving them a voice. Providing strength in their healing. And bringing the abusers to justice.
Raylene, are you NUTS?!? You either don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, or you’re a terrific liar. I know Ty and Trisha. They are nothing like you described. They are both liberal, antiFundamentalist Christians who do not tolerate abuse and lies. I’m glad they banned you. They stand for true victims, not KoolAid drinkers. Get lost.
Thank you
Daddy was a deacon. I was in church for everything from all the choir practices to Vacation Bible School, Baptist Training Union, Sunday School, revivals… People who speak out are branded not Christian and are shunned.. absolutely nobody pays attention to anyone who reveals anything that happens in the church.. Of course, everyone in hte church did not enforce the severely patriarchal dogma when not at church, but it was insidious.
Yes. Insidious. Yes. There for everything. Yes. Patriarchal dogma. Yes. Shunned…
See, when strangers who never knew each other and never went to the same church, but who had nearly the exact same experiences because we speak the same familiar language of knowing … this is where the light bulbs start going off that “it wasn’t just my one crazy church.”
Ironic too how different cults may call it different things, as if to make it special and unique. I had meetings at the Hall 3x/week, home Bible study 1x/week, the Public Ministry Service 1x/week, the Memorial, the Assemblies and Conventions.
But yup, all the same insidious, separatist, patriarchal dogma. And don’t forget the shunning.
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