On Gays and Christianity
Sorry for the inconvenience, but the page you are looking for—the one containing links to most of John’s writings on the issue of gay people and Christianity—is here.
John On HuffPo
![John Shore on The Huffington Post](http://johnshore.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/huffpost.jpg?w=120 "John Shore on The Huffington Post\")
This blog on your Kindle
Le’ t-shirt
"Love Jesus? Hate Bigotry? JohnShore. com" tee shirt
Put John on you
Here's the html code for showing this linked badge on your own website or blog :
<a href="http://johnshore.com/" title="JohnShore.com"><img src="http://johnshore.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/shore150x150.jpg" alt="JohnShore.com"/></a>
NEW! “UNFAIR”
Soft cover edition, autographed and inscribed per your request by John Shore PayPal or credit card
“Hell No!”
“7 Reasons” NOW IN PAPERBACK
John’s collected humor
“10 Ways (We) Christians Fail”
“I’m OK – You’re Not”
Soft cover edition, autographed and inscribed per your request by John Shore
PayPal or credit card “Penguins”
Hardcover edition, autographed and inscribed per your request by John Shore
PayPal or credit card
“Comma Sense”
{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }
In many senses, the evangelical Christian church represents the best side of our humanity, involved for hundreds of years in social welfare, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and assisting those most in need around the world. Consistently, however, one thorny issue has persisted—the relationship of the church to the gay community. We, who are to embody the love of Christ to the world, have conveyed not only a lack of understanding and compassion, but resistance to examining current research into what homosexuality actually is, the result being that the conservative church (including conservative branches of other religions) stands almost alone in condemning as sinful people who are intrinsically wired differently than 90% of the population.
There is a fundamental difference in the concept and definition of “homosexuality” between the scientific community and the conservative church. Science’s working term is “sexual orientation,” which according to the American Psychological Association, is “…an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction toward others. … Sexual orientation exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality.”
The term “homosexual” was first used by German psychologist Karoly Maria Benkert in 1869. At the time of the translation of the King James Bible (1611), the word did not exist. Over the years, passages have been reworded and “updated,” substituting contemporary terms that were thought more suiting or accurate. For example, in I Corinthians 6:9, the Greek word arsenokoitai, implying “soft” and originally rendered “effeminate” in the King James, was changed in 1958 to “homosexual.” In The Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-sex Relationships, authors Rev. Jeff Miner and John Tyler Connoley point out that there were specific Greek words referring to homosexual activity that the writer Paul could have used if that was what he had in mind. Extra-biblical Greek writers used arsenokoitai more in the context of one man overpowering or dominating another. The conservative church now uses the term “homosexual” to refer to those in the GLBT community, loosely defining such individuals as being sexually active (or appearing to be so) with a partner of the same sex. In order to remain relevant and credible, the church must start to use correct terminology, as well as seeking accuracy and cultural context in rendering biblical passages from the original languages.
In 1994, the APA stated that approximately 10% of the world’s population is homosexual or bisexual. This percentage is fairly steady across nationalities and cultures, regardless of how liberal or repressive they might be. A 1994 study of twin and non-twin brothers by psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and psychiatrist Richard Pillard of Boston University showed that in identical twins (whether raised apart or together), if one twin was homosexual then there is a 52% chance of the other twin being homosexual. For non-identical twins, the statistics were 22%, and for non-twin or adopted brothers, 10%. Another study in 1993 by J. M. Bailey and R. C. Pillard of identical twin sisters showed a 48% chance of both twins being lesbian if one was.
Researchers have also examined diverse physical characteristics, as well as fraternal birth order. Marc Breedlove’s 1999 study comparing hand structure showed that there tend to be consistent differences in finger length between straight and lesbian women, and straight and gay men. A study of fingertip ridges by J.A.Y. Hall and D. Kimura at the University of Western Ontario at London, ON Canada published in 1994 demonstrated that 30% of gay men have fingertip ridge differences on their left hands as compared to straight men. A study by Ray Blanchard in 1997 showed that (only for right-handed boys) the more older brothers a boy has, the higher the likelihood (around 33% for each older brother) the boy will grow up to be homosexual.
Other studies have looked at hearing sensitivity, eye blink patterns, family pedigrees, and genetics, especially of the X chromosome. Like pieces of an intricate puzzle, there are a large number of subtle physical and other variations between straight people and gays and lesbians, things that obviously cannot be “chosen.” All the pieces of the puzzle found so far fit together to show that sexual orientation, the inborn bent of sexual attraction, is generally predetermined, at least partially at conception. Being homosexual or bisexual should be considered as morally neutral as being heterosexual. The question for the church then becomes, how do we reconcile science with scripture? Can an interpretation of scripture be valid that is clear and straightforward to 90% of the world’s population, while condemning the other 10%? Or have we misinterpreted those few passages that possibly refer to homosexuality?
In 1500 AD, Copernicus concluded that the sun, rather than the earth, is the center of the solar system, seeming to deny Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” After his death, his work was defended by Bruno, for which he was tortured and burned at the stake. Galileo proved that the earth and planets revolve around the sun, in contradiction to Ecclesiastes 1:5, “The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.” He was repeatedly threatened with torture and eventually forced to renounce his work, and lived the rest of his life under house arrest for “heresy.” Descartes, Newton, and many others were similarly persecuted for the advances they made in scientific thought.
Psalm 19:1-2 says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.” Immediately following, the sun is compared to a runner in a race across the sky: “It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other.” We no longer torture and execute those who understand that it is actually the rotation of the earth that causes this illusion, and we make this adjustment without denigrating Scripture. Still, in the battle over creation/intelligent design/evolution, the defenders of the faith try to stand against science in support of the Bible.
The Bible can stand for itself. I believe that “the heavens declare…” refers to everything that we as intelligent human beings are able to discern from a rigorous study of all branches of science. In the New Testament, Romans 1:20 says, “For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made….” St. Augustine and others spoke of God’s “two books,” Scripture and nature. Nothing good has ever come from Christians refusing to engage the facts in favor of clinging to proof texts. The Reverend Mel White says, “Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” or “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also without error.” If we truly believe that the Bible is a guide to living God’s way for all people, then we must grapple with the seeming contradictions using meticulous biblical study and sound science to discover how they fit together in the arena of sexual orientation.
Many religious people who see homosexuality as a sinful choice have the conviction that through prayer, self-discipline or miraculous intervention, homosexuality can be re-wired into heterosexuality. This is rarely if ever true. Adherents of “homosexual cure” or “recovery” generally mean by “ex-gay” that either the gay person has committed to a life of celibacy, or the bisexual person has decided to limit his or her sexual encounters strictly to the opposite sex. This is behavioral change, but not a change in sexual orientation.
The concept of “reparative therapy” involves an attempt to change children or young people from gay to straight. Much of the theory is based on the work of George Rekers, who ran a government-funded study in the 1970s attempting to change “effeminate” boys to “normal” boys. The poster child for this study, Kirk Murphy (known in the research as Kraig) is said by his brother and sister to have never again been happy once he started treatment as a five-year-old in 1970. Kirk committed suicide at age 38 in 2003 after a lifetime of depression and struggle with being gay (AC360.com, The “Sissy Boy” Experiment). However, Rekers’ work continues to be cited until the present day by organizations such as NARTH, the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. In 2009 Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Dr. George Alan Rekers and others published Handbook of Therapy for Unwanted Homosexual Attractions which includes the story of “Kraig” as an example of a success story, six years after he killed himself. Opponents and some subjects of reparative therapy say that it contributes to deep depression, self-destructive behaviors, and suicide as people find that contrary to what they had been led to believe, their sexual drives are inborn and unchangeable.
Since all the scientific proof points to homosexuality being innate just as heterosexuality is, then the same biblical standards should apply to us all. Believers should enter serious relationships only with other believers, and sexual relations should be reserved exclusively for marriage. This poses a nearly impossible situation for gay and lesbian couples, for whom marriage in the U.S. is largely outlawed. Fundamentalists insist that granting the right of marriage to gay couples would destroy marriage, weaken the fiber of society, and lead to the end of morality. However, same-sex marriage has been legal in Canada since mid-2005, in all ten provinces and three territories. Since it was approved, support for it among the general population has risen, in a quiet revolution that few Americans are even aware of. Legalizing same-sex marriage in the US would have many benefits, both to the couples involved and to the nation in general. Marriage encourages monogamy, the most sexually healthy choice. It affirms that not all gays (just as not all straight people) are capable of remaining celibate, and allows them the relief that Paul encouraged in I Corinthians 7:8-9: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” And practically speaking, gays and lesbians pay taxes just like the rest of us. They should not be denied the rights and privileges of civil marriage that any heterosexual couple can easily obtain.
The life of Jesus gives us an exact prototype of how to be a God-follower in a fallen world. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he replied, “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). Billy Graham once said, “It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, God’s job to judge and my job to love.” As made clear in the parable of the Good Samaritan, our neighbors are all our fellow men and women.
The church is now in a stand-off much like apartheid with the GLBT community, many of whom are also believers, enforcing separation and denying their rights with laws and biblical proof texts. As a result, an entire group of people has been driven from the church. In Too Late the Phalarope, John Paton of South Africa wrote about the horrifying power of apartheid to destroy human lives. The church would do well to critically reexamine its stance, and to heed his closing words: “…for maybe of the power of her love that never sought itself, men would have turned to the holy task of pardon, that the body of the Lord might not be wounded twice, and virtue come of our offenses.”
In my “aborted” diaconate training owing to appearances/inability to be “formed” AKA: I questioned, I came to know Jesus the Human for the first time. Jesus, the Divine Son of God, was all I ever knew…placed on a pedestal, isolated within a “Holy of Holies” by the Church. Essentially, the formal teaching of the Church was patterned after traditional Jewish theology…God, the Divine, as unapproachable, untouchable by mere humans. However, He trod this earth as one of us…rejoicing and mourning, giving and receiving comfort, healing and being healed, living and dying. The relationship of a true loving…physical friendship with Lazarus…whom He loved…no doubt embraced and hug passionately…kissed openly as was Semitic tradition is the true Jesus…experiencing the physical part of our shared humanity. The more I learn of Jesus the “man” the more my Faith in Him deepens…for He becomes a friend who I can embrace fully assured He truly knows my hopes and fears, strengths and weaknesses, passions and desires. To Him all that matters is that I love my fellow person fully…expressing it fully both spiritually and physically…obeying His command that He has loved me, so too, must I love others. All other distorted, convoluted, nitpicking Church teaching pointing at my “sinfulness” is a false teaching…for in judging me, the Church condemns herself before the Father.
John,
It’s great how many intelligent well-thought responses were given in response to this one correspondence. I for one have been in the church all my life, and after coming to accept my sexuality, I’ve done my homework.
The arguments here supporting LGBT inclusion have instilled hope in me. Others including yourself have brought up good points that I haven’t thought about. I will not remain silent on this issue, even though my church is fully inclusive of gay persons.
The opposition to gay equality has its stronghold in the religious right. I have been silent in the past, but those days are over. It is time to stand up for what we know is right.
-!PLEASE READ!-
John Shore and FANs alike,
I am stuck between these two ideas. I have friends who are gay and I love them, but at the same time the bible preaches against sexual relations between men. If being gay is not a choice, and that much is known to be a fact (based off of the argument of why would ‘gays’ choose discrimination) then maybe all of the scriptures that preach against gay sexual intercourse: 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:8-10, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 — Are not relevant? These scriptures teach directly against sexual relations between men and to simply call yourselves Christians and refuse to address why these scriptures don’t apply to todays society makes no sense.
Hating the sin but not the person committing the sin makes sense enough doesn’t it? Why can’t I love the person but hate the sin? It’s like my grandpa who became an alcoholic — do I love him any less because he is an alcoholic? No! He is my grandpa and more importantly a member of my family. God is the same way is he not? He loves us regardless of our sins.
Another false accusal of Christians who uphold the scriptures previously stated as the reason for why gay sexual activities are wrong is: those of such a belief are hateful towards gays. That is an unjust accusation! I love my gay guy friends as I would any guy friend but just as I struggle with lusting over girls so do they struggle with lusting over guys. We both are in sin when this happens. But by giving themselves a partner so as to control themselves and to give themselves over to their own passions — as Paul speaks of in Corinthians 7 — is this really love? Or is this the love of society today that every Christian so looks forward to? After years of waiting to finally have a chance to let go of all of the sexual tensions that those who aren’t Christians are enabled to do with whomever they wish on a daily basis, if they so truly desire. If that is the case then love is more to save oneself from living a life constantly lusting after the sex most appealing to them. Is that not what animals do? Are we no better than chimpanzees if marriage is based off of this assumption. I think love is deeper than that. Love should not be a safe guard to have sex of your own discretion without getting busted by fellow believers. No, your wife or husband is and should be, I believe, the person to whom you have bonded a loving friendship with. And if the Bible, which is to say, the Word of God says that this friend is to be a female for a male and a male for a female so be it.
But one topic you guys do have me stuck on is slavery. How in the world did we get the idea of black slavery from the Holy Bible, and then refute the 100 year old system with the same text? I know the Bible talks about slaves being submissive to their masters but also encourages slavery. Where then did we correct ourselves (Christians)? With what scriptures?
Hating the sin but not the person committing the sin makes sense enough doesn’t it? Why can’t I love the person but hate the sin? It’s like my grandpa who became an alcoholic — do I love him any less because he is an alcoholic? No! He is my grandpa and more importantly a member of my family. God is the same way is he not? He loves us regardless of our sins.>>>
Hello,
You asked for us to read, so I read and now I’m giving you my two cents. No – this doesn’t actually make sense (from what gay christians have told us) because you are reducing being “gay” to a “behavior”, and it’s not. If I were to equate this back to you as a straight male, “love the sin hate the sinner” would mean that I hate the impulse you have to actually not just have sex with a woman, but to love a woman that is incredibly special to you – to want to date her and marry her and have kids with her – I would *hate* that. Christians are trying to have the last word on what *being* gay is so it can fit within our current thinking that Scripture condemns it. But we’re becoming more aware of how illogical that is – being gay is exactly like being straight. Being straight is far more than just lust or sex – it’s who makes your heart beat faster, who you long for, who you want to be known by, who you want to share your life and your heart with. All of those things being God-given impulses in all of us because as he said, “It is not good for man to be alone”.
For you to engage this topic as a Christian – to really thoughtfully engage – means the last word on what is “enough” is something that you may have to surrender.
alcoholism is not necessarily a behavior, either. it’s an addiction. you can choose to drink or not to drink, but you can’t stop being an alcoholic.
the difference is that if you give in and drink when you are an alcoholic, you are doing yourself physical, medical DAMAGE, and you very much risk harming other people because of your lack of judgment.
whereas if you are gay in a loving relationship, so far from causing harm, you have the same potential of any other loving relationship to cause great good.
And to answer your question, slavery was not corrected by scriptures. As a matter of fact, slave owners used scripture as a reason to *keep* slaves. Abraham Lincoln relied upon the constitution and the law to drive the education and awareness around the injustice of slavery, it was actually the christians who unfortunately, attempted to keep slaves. They believed that Scripture entitled them to do so.
I think that’s what is being asked, DR, he wants to know which scriptures were used, FIRST to justify slavery, and then which scriptures, if any, justified its reversal? Curious myself.
I’m freaked and deeply humbled by the quality of readers/commenters I have. No one brings it like you guys.
In response to Ashley, I agree with John Shore that finding a more accepting church would be a wise choice. I am gay, I am a choirmaster, and I am a military man. I was a long-time attendant and adherent to the Roman Catholic Church. As a Puerto Rican, it’s part of my culture.
But when I came to accept my sexuality, I left and joined the Episcopal Church, a similar but much more welcoming church. Leaving itself is my way of showing my opposition. I was so fed up of hearing people say that people who “choose” to live a gay lifestyle were sinning. No one in their right mind who comes from a Catholic background would “choose” to be gay. As far as the person who commented about their brother who was interested in girls during high school, so was I. But I believe this was a period of transformation. One’s sexuality can, over time, change, but not by choice.
I don’t think anyone who knows me well would question my piety, even after coming out back in May. I know without a doubt that loving another man is no sin. As my priest put it, “we humans cannot help who we love.” It amazes me how straight Christians can judge gays as sinners. I wonder how many of those who judge us have actually read the Bible, and struggled to find understanding in its words. It’s easy to make homosexuality a “them vs. us” topic, if you’re not gay. If you’re straight, you’re not the one supposedly sinning. I don’t know if I myself would be as supportive of LGBT people if I myself were not gay.
I ask Ashley and others, as a soldier, as a Christian, as a gay man, to support LGBT inclusion in all churches. For more, visit http://www.BelieveOutLoud.com
Ashley, I blasted past all the comments in my haste to talk to you about this. I’m sure it’s been mentioned that you should stay and try to affect change from the inside, but…I stayed for over ten years in a church where a lot of incorrect things (besides their stance on LGBT people) was being preached. I played guitar in the worship team, I was heavily involved. I kept telling myself, “But…there are such great PEOPLE here.” I was turning a blind eye to the NASTINESS that was being preached in the name of Jesus. The breaking point came right before the 2008 Presidential election, when an elder got up and attempted to float the lie that Barack Obama refused to be sworn into the Senate on a Bible. My hand shot up and my enormous mouth shot open and I yelled, “NO!” And that was the end of me in that church. That was the end of me in church, period. I’ve not been back in three years. I have just recently started feeling that it’s time for me to dip my toe in the water and find another church to attend, and trust me…I have done TONS of homework this time around. I will not set foot in it unless the church has stated on its website that LGBT people are welcomed and embraced. I have found one that I think might be a really, really good fit for me (from the info on their website, anyway) and I’m actually excited about going.
Don’t put yourself through this. I would vote that you not stay at that church. Some hearts and minds are so hardened…you won’t be able to change them. However, if you’re active in a church that is inclusive of LGBT people, think of the hearts and minds you could impact in that way! A lot of LGBT inclusive churches are very active in their local Pride events…my heart sings at the thought of letting people who have been badly hurt by the church in the past know that they are perfect JUST THE WAY THEY ARE.
I can’t keep beating my head against the white-bread, James-Dobson-Speaks-for-me Christians of my old church. Just my two cents, but you’re not wimping out if you choose to find another church. Think of the rejected souls you could be reaching if you start hanging with people who love and embrace LGBT people?
Blessings!
Penny
Hello everyone,
I just found this blog and I am so excited! I did not know so many other people out there believe as I do. I grew up in an evangelical mega-church in Iowa, and I was raised to know what you believe and why you believe it. So for that reason I thank my crazy church because when I got to college and actually met people who weren’t white or straight or Christian I started to do my research of why I believed things such as “homosexuality is a sin”…and I realized I did not have a reason to think that. I completely agree with what has been stated on this site over and over…if people would read the Bible in context and use their logic and reasoning skills they would come to the same conclusion. I did not do a complete 180 and throw away my faith in God…I just had to change some beliefs not central to my core beliefs. The Christians at my church do not understand this type of thinking at all. They believe you have to take all of the Bible literally or none of it at all. The atheists at my school think the same way…the only difference is they have decided there are inconsistencies so they toss out the whole thing which is just as bad in my opinion. I have never met another person who is trying to find a way to bring faith and social justice together.
If anyone has an answer to my question I appreciate it. I am wondering if I should stay at my church (which preaches each Sunday against homosexuality and it is specifically stated that it is a sin in the code of the Assemblies of God international church) and try to make a change from the inside. Or should I just get out of that hate-filled place and find an open church? The latter would be easier, but I wonder if it is right to leave my friends and family behind to continue believing their lies. It is stressful to stay in that environment because I am attacked by pastors who accuse me of misleading their flock and I have been told by my parents that the devil has confused my mind. But if I let them drive me away how will they ever hear the truth?
God bless your good heart, Ashley. In response to this superbly touching “comment,” I posted, on my Facebook “fan” page thing, this:
“Yeah, THIS is why I blog. I don’t have time just now to properly address this loving sister, but MAN how sweetly righteous is this “comment”? People? Help guide this girl? Clearly, she’s listening.”
I wish I now had more time to properly answer you here, but, for now, lemme just give you this bit ‘o input: Leave your church. Life is too short to spend your time trying to convince people that their core convictions are wrong. Better to spend your time with loving people who support you. There’s nothing wrong with fighting the good fight, of course. But do it, first, from a safe and nurturing home base.
Axhley,
Run as fast as you can and as far as you can and don’t look back.
I could not say it any better than John has! Hello Ashley. Shake the dust….
Thank you everyone for the support and thoughtful reponses! I was amazed to find so many people interested in my post, but I know it is because we all share common pasts and common dreams for a better Church where everyone is welcomed as Jesus intended. I do know what I will do now and I feel so much more at peace about it!
Ashley, so many of us are right there with you. What I do believe is that ultimately, our life is joyful and our faith is real *faith* when we’re loving sacrificially which you know – sucks. There’s such a loss that can come with being the one little fish that’s swimming upstream, it’s scary. Particularly when our church community is like a family that feels very safe, it makes the disagreements we have and the disappointments even worse. But for me, when I’m feeling alone in it I think of Jesus on the Cross and how truly, truly alone He was. How small He must have felt when the Father turned away from Him. And I join my suffering to His. I know it sounds trite, but there’s something very beautiful that happens in my spirit when I feel like I am right there with Him in His smallest, most vulnerable moment. Let us know what you decide, you’ll be fantastic either way. xoxoxo
Ashley, I have been attending a GLBT affirming church in Vancouver, BC for about eight months. I had been attending a wonderful Evangelical church prior to this and when I came out as trans four years ago, my pastor and all the friends that mattered to me were amazingly loving and affirming. I did not transition for another nine months, but that is when I stopped attending church. I knew that there were some members who would have had a conniption or coronary if i had continued going to that church, and not wanting to stir the pot and cause trouble for the pastor and the leadership, I stayed away. For the next two years, as I transitioned socially, medically and surgically, I did not attend any church, except for the random attendance at a Catholic Mass with my older sister. I should add that my family has also been wonderful in their love and support. But I digress. The new church is a Spirit-filled congregation, a tad pentecostal/charismatic and the people are real. What has been happening in this place is real and lives are being changed. In recent months, pastors and leaders from other “straight” churches have attended the services secretly to spy us out. But when they come in and experience the presence of God and the outpouring of His Spirit during the service, they are dumbfounded. We know this for a fact because they confess to our pastors after the service why they attended and how the experience has rocked their theology. Upon returning to their churches, some have even been barred from testifying to what they witnessed by their board and or denomination. God is at work, and there is a revival taking place in the GLBT community, who for years was padlocked out of the life of the church. If I were you, I would find a church that is GLBT affirming, yet upholds the truth of the Gospel. As an aside, if you haven’t read the founding document for ThroughwayChristians.com (authored by John), check it out. And I agree with you, John’s blog is a wonderful place, full of passionate, articulate people who love the Lord and are not afraid to discuss the issues with respect and integrity. Blessings to you for your spiritual maturity.
“In recent months, pastors and leaders from other ‘straight’ churches have attended the services secretly to spy us out. But when they come in and experience the presence of God and the outpouring of His Spirit during the service, they are dumbfounded. We know this for a fact because they confess to our pastors after the service why they attended and how the experience has rocked their theology. Upon returning to their churches, some have even been barred from testifying to what they witnessed by their board and or denomination.”
I love this.
It reminds me of this:
The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him.
Jesus said, “I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?”
On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”
Others said, “He is the Messiah.”
Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.
Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, “Why didn’t you bring him in?”
“No one ever spoke the way this man does,” the guards replied.
“You mean he has deceived you also?” the Pharisees retorted. “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them.” –John 7:32-49.
It also reminds me of this:
“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.–Acts 10:44-48
Way cool!
I’ve recently come to the same conclusion as you about homosexuality too, and like you, I had to decide whether to leave my church or try to change things from inside.
I never really expected to convince my conservative church members to agree with my “liberal” interpretation of the Bible, but I had hoped I could convince my church to at least treat gays and lesbians like people and to love them like Jesus would. I talked about the issue with friends, brought it up in sunday school discussions and posted articles on facebook from this, and other similar sites.
It didn’t work. Finally, frustrated, I wrote a blog post on the issue. When that got hit with negative, even hateful comments from my church members (including my pastor, who referred homosexuality as “disgusting”) I decided it was time to move on.
I actually just recently made this decision, so I can’t say yet how it’s worked out for me, but I feel like a burden has been lifted.
So, try your best to change from the inside, but if the hate is bringing you down, realize that there’s a point when it’s okay to move on. I hope you have more luck with your church than I did!
First of all, good on you for seeking truth and trusting yourself in the process. The church stripped me of the ability to trust myself so I had a really hard time and did in fact, have periods of time when I completely lost my faith.
Anyway, on to your question –
First, continue trusting your instincts. Do what you feel is right. You’re going to have people telling you to leave because you need to make sure you’re being fed and to seek out like-minded communities where collectively, you can do the most good for the larger community in which you live. Valid points.
Then you’re going to have others tell you that you should consider staying where you’re at because you are a beacon of light for your fellow parishioners – that if you leave, who will be there to fight the good fight of equality and love. Also valid points.
There will be others who say, find another church that is accepting, but continue shining your light at the old church, so that you’re fed and moving forward while still acting as a gentle light to the other church. Also valid points.
I’m sorry this isn’t an answer, so much as it is advice about how to decide for yourself and to point out that there is no “right” or “wrong” answer. This is actually a very neutral situation, imo.
But continue listening to and trusting that inner voice. Many blessings to you on your journey.
This is so smart, we have such a multitude of people who are willing to share the wisdom borne out of such suffering. Thank you.
Ashley, I really think you know the answer to your question. Beyond that, follow your favor. Are you receiving favor there? Doesn’t sound like it. You are not responsible for what your family and friends believe. Only God can change hearts and bring revelation, as He did for you. Sometimes you have to step back and let God pitch the ball without you coaching from the sidelines.
Blessings,
Pat
Yes, run! You have already recognized their hate for exactly what it is. It will destroy you if you let it. Keep your church friends, outside of church. Find a supportive loving church (or other Christian community;) it will build your strength and your resolve. THEN, share that love with your family and friends, one on one. Show it, don’t just say it. When they see that you are true to your conscience, A FEW of them will start to think. If it happens at all, it will take time. You cannot change that church, but your love can influence some of the people in it.
Find a better church. Begin with Googling “gay church” and you’re likely to be able to find a welcoming/reconciling/affirming (i.e., “not-gay-hating”) church somewhere near you.
RUN (do not walk) to do this. Your parents, bless them, are probably too entrenched in a toxic church environment to change any time soon. Kick the dust off your sandals. Move on down the road – metaphorically. The AOG isn’t budging into the latter half of the 20th Century any time soon – and you’ve already gone.
Welcome to the land of outcasts, heretics, and “those people your parents warned you about.”
And if “Penny” is the Penny I think I know from another of John Shore’s pages, then a big ol’ shout-out to her: “Just my two cents, but you’re not wimping out if you choose to find another church. Think of the rejected souls you could be reaching if you start hanging with people who love and embrace LGBT people?”
To that, I say “Ay-MENN!”
Hi, Brother Reed! Yes, it’s me.
I love me some Reed, and I love me this thread. I am encouraged DAILY by the numbers of like-minded Christians I am finding online. There are more of us than I ever dreamed possible. Ashley, you are in the BEST of company here!!!!
Penny
“Welcome to the land of outcasts, heretics, and “those people your parents warned you about.”
Perfect.
Hey Ashley,
In the end, it’s almost impossible for pastors to change when their denomination has already decided the issue for them. If they change or even tolerate diverse opinions within their flock, many will likely lose their jobs and hence their ability to support their families. Once I realized this, I decided it was not my place to pressure them into making such a sacrifice to appease my new found freedom of faith. I also realized that, although I called this church my home for years, it was not in fact mine to change. Many of us have been a part of church splits and the pain and relationships that are sacrificed when it happens. At best, if I were to succeed with my plan to change them from the inside, it would end with a split. So after much internal debate and a sense of loss, I left my church. I did so quietly, and whenever asked why I left I would respond by acknowledging the leadership’s desire to do good in the world, but that my faith and their doctrines had reached a fork in the road. I still see them from time to time; we exchange pleasantries and a short conversation…then move on. If you leave, I would advise that you don’t burn bridges.
I can relate to where you are at. I was “saved” in an A/G chuch. I am familiar with the doctrines, the structures that support them, the individual church’s obligation to affirm the denominations stance, how that trickles down to our social groups within the church and the seemingly un-achievable desire to change it all.
I stuck around in the church for a while after my views began to change on hot button issues. I tried to have open and honest discussions with the pastors about where I was at and how I could still serve in their community. I tried to present them with middle ground and appeal to a generous unity over doctrinal rigidness. It was a good exercise in beating my head against a wall
Most of the time I think we need to find a group of other believers to fellowship with who are at least somewhat on the same page as us…well that’s not always possible, maybe in the same chapter? At the same time, I also think it’s important that we not sacrifice the relationships we have with our friends and families when we leave a church. I you leave, I would suggest maintaining your close relationships from your old church, make time to meet up with them…just do it outside of the church. I do this, and honestly it has formed deeper bonds since they know I am there out of true friendship and not because we happen to go to the same “life group”. Love is patient and we are called to walk the long path with our friends. For me, what we believe is important, but it isn’t more important than the people and relationships in our life. Changing an entire denomination or even an individual church might be near impossible…but walking patiently and sharing our faith and hope with a friend seems doable to me.
Whatever your decision is, I’m glad you have found a faith that is more full of life. Live that message of love and acceptance to it’s fullest.
Peace, Jim
Ashley…. The only thing I want to add to what has been said is that what I try to do is focus on Jesus and his teachings, instead of what our human church fathers write down in their law books (I’m Catholic).
I don’t personally believe that I need “the church”, but what I DO need is the community that going to church provides for me. I love going to church and talking to people before and after mass. We are a family, a family despite cultural differences and a language barrier. The feeling of community is SO very important to anyone, everyone. Community, communion with like-minded brothers and sisters is what nurtures our faith. Until I experienced this warm, welcoming love and tangible support from my fellow parishioners, I felt very alone and uncertain about my beliefs…. I think basically because I didn’t have a place to freely express my beliefs.
I believe that you should find a place to call home. You need a place where you are not afraid to express your beliefs… wherever that may be. A place where the people love you for you.
Ashley, I pray for God’s blessings on you while you go through the process of deciding. I’m not going to answer your question of whether you should stay or go. I know that there are many factors involved in that decision that you couldn’t begin to write about in the comment section of John’s blog.
I will tell you what I’ve done and the effects it’s had on me.
I’ve been attending a Free Methodist church for about 6 years, the same church I grew up in. (For those wondering, the Free Methodists are totally not like Methodists at all! They’re very conservative, verging on fundamental and totally have a section in their tenets about homosexuality being a sin, but everyone should treat LGBT people with love.) So basically I have a similar church history to you although I ignored the church–and God–for about 18 years before going back. Before I even started attending regularly, I met with one of the pastors for counseling and laid it all on the line that I’m gay and all the other issues that I deal with. She was cool with it. After a few years she and her husband, the senior pastor, actually semi-adopted me as their child and love me totally. They also have a nephew who’s gay (and has a pastor mom in the same denomination). Now I’m not saying they’ve come out and said it’s not a sin to be LGBT and have sex, but their stance is that IF it’s a sin, it’s no worse than others, and they’re willing to learn, are open to reason, and open to the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, there are many in our local church who would not be so kind. There are some that I think will leave the church once they find out I’m a lesbian and my “parents” have known the whole time. I’ve chosen to stay and face people head on. I don’t announce that I’m lesbian, but I don’t deny it at all. And many are coming to think I am anyway. I’m hoping that by being open, they’ll learn that I’m just another Christian trying my best to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus. The decision hasn’t been easy, but for me it’s the best choice, especially since there are no churches locally that would be any better. Absolutely none! Even the local Episcopal, Presbyterian, and United Methodist congregations have made it clear they will not ever hire an LGBT minister. So my options are all crappy if I want to attend church locally. Financially it’s not feasible for me to move to a larger place or closer to a city. So there you have it. It’s not great, but it can work to stay in the church instead of running. I just remembered you said they actually preach regularly about homosexuality being a sin. Crap, that might toss me to the other side, because at least my dad never preaches like that. He’s pretty much a “God is love, you’re supposed to love God and others” preacher.
If nothing else I hope you can take what all of us have said and use it to help you decide. God bless you and welcome to this corner of the interwebs that John’s created.
Oh, and also, do go check out thruwaychristians.com. Our forum is slow, but great!
Hello Ashley
I’m in a fairly similar situation to you at the moment. I worship at a church that isn’t gay affirming and I don’t agree with them. I’m kind of hoping to change it from within, I’m taking things a step at a time, no long term plans, I may decide it’s not for me.
Big difference is though, my church barely mentions the issue, it’s only if I bring it up individuals will tell me they don’t agree. I can’t believe your church preaches against this issue every single week! Even if you believed it was a sin, that’s so unbalanced. How many churches preach against one particular sin every week, eg ‘Stop stealing, all thieves are off to hell!’
It seems to me the reason they’re doing this with homosexuality is because they’re on such shaky ground, i.e. it’s not a sin! They’re flogging the proverbial dead horse. Desperate to get people to agree with them. If there was strong biblical evidence they wouldn’t need to.
I’d find it very hard to go there, you’re swimming against the tide. You have to think of your own spiritual needs too, you could end up very worn down. I know it’s very hard to change churches so it’s entirely up to you what you do, but I think if you can bring yourself to move that may be a good idea. I don’t think that a church that preaches against one particular issue every single week is in a place where the mass majority would be open to change.
A small minority may well have listened to you though, and you’ll be remembered, your struggle has definitely not been in vain. If nothing else, God will be pleased that you tried.
Ashley,
Your story resonates so deeply with me. I found myself at a similar crossroads nearly 10 years ago as I struggled with the concept of infant baptism for our first child……and started down an entirely new and different path that required me to open and be brave enough to pass through the doors of, “Why do I believe what I do?” and “What if I’m wrong?” As children entered our life, the lens of my old fundamentalist certainties which I had used for so long to judge everything and everyone began to shift. Cognitive dissonance was the key: Why was it that the people most offended by my public and extended breastfeeding were “good church-going Christians?” Didn’t God want what was best for my baby too? I started paying attention to what was in our food and from where it came. I began to buy organic. I stopped putting chemicals in the grass and in our house……and I realized, if I didn’t want harmful chemicals in and on my children – what about everyone else’s children? I realized that being an environmentalist didn’t mean hugging trees at all; it isn’t about caring about plants more than people. It IS about caring for people. And as I saw Jerry Falwell preach sermons supporting big oil companies and against conservation, I wondered where a crunchy-granola Christian like me fit in.
The idea of “The Christian Left” was completely foreign to me since it had been indoctrinated into me that there was no equal to the Christian Right. There was simply “us” and “them” and “they” were clearly wrong because “they” didn’t agree with “us.” There wasn’t even room to call them the “Christian Wrong” because, clearly, if they were wrong then they weren’t “real, Bible-believing” Christians like “us.” (This, I have come to see, is the egotism that blocks compassion among the realms of the Faith where I was reared.)
And then one day, I saw Jim Wallis on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart promoting his book, “God’s Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn’t Get It.” And I thought – that would be a book I would like to read. And that was the beginning…..
I never knew there were social justice Christians either. And I was never taught that caring for others was part of the Christian life. We were taught all the “Thou Shalt Nots” but there was no “Doing unto others.” Being a “good” Christian meant reading our bibles, going to church whenever the doors were open, praying regularly, “soul-winning,” and trying really hard not to sin. (Karen Armstrong has pointed out the ego reinforcing power of such activities including her penance of scrubbing floors as a young nun. This type of spiritual practice is focussed on the self. None is focussed on others nor on building relationships – the fertile ground of meaning in life.) A loving God had been refuted and preached against: too mushy, too soft, too…..feminine. The mental conversation I had with myself as I wrestled with and struggled through all of the theology and assumptions of my Sunday School understanding of God became a life long contemplative prayer and from it has sprung a much deeper, more connected relationship with the Divine. Letting go of old assumptions, being open to new ways of thinking and seeing has led me to some of the deepest connections in my life, some of the most richly rewarding people and places, relationships and experiences. We are now at a United Church of Christ where they recognize and affirm the spiritual journey of life…..ever growing, learning, changing, becoming…..where we don’t go to have our questions answered, but where we come to walk the journey together and have our answers questioned.
Our minister has said, “No one ever changed their mind through argument.” And as Maya Angelou has wisely said, “People will never forget how you make them feel.” And from the insight of my dear friend, “You and God are responsible for change for you. They and God are responsible for change for them.”
We can’t change anyone. Others are the only ones who can change themselves and they have to be ready and willing to change. I recognize this is hard as we see those around us, many of whom we love, struggling, mired in judgmentalism, legalism, and unhappiness. We were there once too.
Be passionately curious. Ask difficult questions. Be open to possibility. Pay attention to signs and wonders. Notice the Divine all around. Read voraciously. Seek out wise guides. Find what feeds and nurtures you. Recognize the rock cairns along your path that reassure you you are not lost but on the right track. Love without holding back. Know you are loved in return by the One in whom you live and breathe and move and have your being – beyond all possible imagination…..and by paying attention you will notice even more.
For your family and friends….Jesus reminded us that others would know we were his followers by how we loved one another. Do this.
Blessings on your journey…. C
As a young Christian bisexual, I’ve never understood why the “choice” argument is used against homosexuality.
So what if being LGBT is a choice? Why does that make it wrong as opposed to being born that way? I suppose it’s because if it’s a choice then that means you can go the other way. Sure, that’s great, because choices mean freedom. Only a free person can make well-informed choices about their own life.
Choosing to go from gay to straight is not “right” and choosing to go from straight to gay is not “wrong.” They are choices. All of them. If they work for that person, then that’s wonderful. Sexuality is just too fluid and ever-changing. Condemning one way of doing it will only cause untold suffering.
However, it’s an unfortunate consquence of being oppressed for so long that some members of the LGBT community are being heterophobic.
I see straight-bashing and gay-bashing everywhere. As long as we push so hard against each other, we are going to be to opposite poles on an extreme continuum, not a ever-changing melting pot, which we all really are.
Thank you for this post. I’m glad there are other Christians who support LGBT people’s right to be human.
I so like this!
Brilliant reply Robert.
I’m not sure of your position on gays. However, I will give you mine. My brother is gay. Growing up, he was interested in girls, but girls weren’t interested in him. He went to college, and there he had his first gay relationship. To me, being his sister and watching him grow up, seeing his struggles and then seeing him turn to homosexuality, in my mind, it was a choice. If a girl in high school had really liked him, wanted to date him, instead of turning him down, would he be gay today? I don’t think so.
Having said that, for me, as a Christian I have an entirely different perspective on gays. I feel like too many of us condemn so quickly and for some reason, just this one sin seems to be the one that gets people all riled up. Now how are we going to get people to come to Jesus when Jesus looks like that to them? And considering the many sins we all commit every day, how are they any worse than any one of us?
SR…
I would suggest you have a conversation with your brother. I know literally hundreds if not thousands of gay men and not one of them is gay because “they could not get a girl to date them in high school”. Life is a little more complex than that.
My view is that when anyone dehumanizes an another human being for any reason… they are really exposing the pettiness of their soul and their lack of humanity. For years, I have watch as christians exalt themselves as the demonize me – a gay person. I have pitied them for their meanness, ignorance, narrow-mindedness and shallowness but I have always considered them human being… just very poor examples of being human.
Luckily, I don’t need anyone to validate my humanity. I can assess my actions in this world and can see the value that I have added to it. I have worked with the homeless for decades, worked with families to keep them from being homeless, been a kind, decent, loving, and generally ok person 97% of the time (no one is perfect).
In the end, I do not see any value to believing in christianity. The christian god appears to be a barbaric seven yr old (jealous, vengeful, spiteful and petty) not to mention a child abuser (the whole mandating the killing of his own son). There are too many inconsistencies in it scriptures (cain’s wife, eye for and eye/turn the other cheek). Christianity is also weirdly anti female… replacing the female goddess with the holy spirit is just odd. And the history of almost every single christian sect is filled with arrogance, ignorance, meanness and a general lack of good will for the rest of humanity.
I suspect that if there was a body count associated with books… then the bible would most likely be the listed as the bloodiest book in history.
So, thanks to all you christians for finally to admitting I am being human… I am honored… but maybe it is time for you to justify your own place in this world rather than to question mine.
Robert
Robert,
You’re clearly a smart, articulate man who’s able to explain the harm that we’ve done to you as Christians in ways that allow us to hear it. You’re right – you don’t need us at all to validate who you are or who you love. You’ve done all of that in spite of us telling you as a church how you are grounded in a “sin”. I find it remarkable that gay men and women grow up in our christian-saturated country emotionally intact at all as a result of what we’ve done to you, and I know that many don’t. Many gay kids don’t make it past high school yet we’ve prioritized you not getting married over that. It’s crazy, I’m a christian and find it all so evil and crazy. I’m trying to reconcile how I change it, how we protect people like you from people like us.
Thank you for being here on this blog and sharing your story. On behalf of Christians, I take responsibility for posts like Susan’s where we imply that you chose to be who you are and that who you are is something not of God. We’ll never be able to repair all the damage we’ve done, but acknowledging that we have and owning it entirely due to our own weak-minded, foolish ways.
We’ll never be able to repair all the damage we’ve done, but acknowledging that we have and owning it entirely due to our own weak-minded, foolish ways *might be a good start.
Hi DR…
Thank you for your response.
This blog and people like you are the beginning of the solution to the level of arrogance that exists in the christian world and in the united states in general. It is about decent people stand against intolerance and hate in all of its forms (racism, nationalism, homophobia, sexism, etc). By speaking the simple truths of love, kindness, empathy and understanding, we will change people’s attitudes and change the world.
For me, being an adult is about being strong when faced bullies while being gentle to those in need.
Again thanks and keep on posting and letting your voice be heard.
Robert
Wow, I love that. Being tough on bullies and gentle to people in need. That’s it exactly. It’s weird watching all of this Harold Camping stuff, with all of us Christians rushing in and offering “support” to those who chose to Harold and his doomsday prophecy, who put their pets to sleep and who ruined any chances of their children going to college because they spent all of their life savings on billboards. That they need “support” when they’ve actually hurt animals and their children. I get that people who are very compromised intellectually and emotionally are going to be susceptible to cults, but where were those of us who are educated Christians? Why do we feel so powerless in stopping the Harolds of the world or those who follow him? It’s all crazy.
Anyway. Hope to hear from you more. – Diane
Hi Diane…
I have been amused by the whole “rapture” situation… and disturbed by it. What disturbed me was not just a few individuals acting foolishly (i.e. killing pets, quitting jobs, spending their kids college tuition on bill boards). But rather because it feels as if the Harold’s rapture thing is the symptom of something far more serious and possibly far wider spread.
It has to do with turning your will, your reason, your common sense, your humanity… over to someone else for the hope of “stability?”, to be apart of the “good group?”, maybe to be “special?”.
I am not inclined to assume the people who followed Harold Camping were all of lower than average intelligence. That would be too easy. I also don’t believe they were “duped”. I believe they willingly decided to believe in the rapture… because they were “sure” they were going bye-bye… in other words, they believed they were better than everyone else.
But why are we surprised by this…. isn’t this the same message that christians preach every single Sunday? Christians are saved because they believe a bronze age/iron age myth and those would don’t are damned. Don’t Jews believe that they are the “chosen people”? Don’t Muslims also believe that they are the best? What about the Hindu and the Sikhs, have each of them stacked their claim to heaven? I am leaving the Buddhists out because I am not sure what they believe.
For me, the issue is that the message religions seem to spread is not a moral lesson, not a spiritual message, not a message about understanding the bountiful, complex wonder of the world/universe. Rather, it is a message of exclusivity… they tell you to: (1) ignore your senses and common sense (2) unequivocally believe everything we tell you (3) you are better than non-believers (4) you are special because you believe and because you are better than none believers… and the most important… (5) we have the exclusive right over the word of god.
This is a recipe for disaster…
It is not that people are un-intelligent. I believe most people are “will-fully” ignorant because it is easier, socially acceptable and validated every Sunday. In my opinion, once you decided that you are the only spokes-person for god… you have lost your humanity, or at least your humility.
Taken further… this kind of thinking reminds me of Hitler and Nazi Germany, of the Inquisition and Crusades, of the burning of heretics, the rational behind slavery, the rational behind the subjugation of women, the rational the royalty and nobility of Europe used to enslave serfs, etc. Most all of these were rationalized as being “god’s will” by the powerful over the powerless.
But wasn’t it really men using the authority of god to get what they wanted? Didn’t religions set this precedent? Isn’t this way of thinking the foundation of religions… this sense of exclusivity, of authority, and of subjugation. Is not the rational mind degraded and repressed repeatedly by religions… in favor of irrational?
Is not belief in the rapture and following someone like Harold Camping completely foreseeable from the world view that most evangelical christian groups operate on? So why are we so surprised when it happens?
I am not surprised… but it does cause me to pause on the benefits of any religion.
Last point, my friend Doug said that a few co-workers thought Harold Camping’s rapture media event was absurd… but only because Harold could never know the date and time… they said, “it says in the bible that no one can know the date and time of the end of the world”. It is my guess, they firmly believe the rapture will occur and if they are on the planet when it happens, they believe they will be raptured. That is distrubing.
Robert
Robert et al…,
I was a christian for 30 years, I did believe in the rapture. I was certain it was going to happen just not when. Then I had my eyes opened so to speak and I realized the only reason I wanted to believe in the rapture was that I wanted an out. I wanted to do my christian thing, and then get my pay and leave.I believed with a sincere heart but I realized through a series of personal set backs that I had not really be taking resopnsiblity for my life, even though I did allot of good things in jesus name. Gave to the poor, adopted a Compassion child, ect… And I was glad to do it but undernieth was a lazyness of sorts. I believe Jesus has already come. He comes in the form of people who love other people genuinly and are just good. I don’t think there is a rapture, but I do think if we as humans of all faiths don’t figure out how to help and support oneanother there will be hell (not literally) to pay.
thanks to all of you who post and keep me working through the process of comming to terms with god, jesus and faith as I lost mine and have been doing alot of thining the last five years about it.
sorry for the mis-spelled words I have dyslexia and some times the fingers and the brain don’t work together! LOL
I think people like us need to speak out when the need calls. I dont like to bash my opinions over peoples heads as they often do, however, I do believe when situations arise like the anti gay rhetoric I read on a crosswalk website or herald campings takeing advantage of people, people like us should speak out. We should say hey! Not all christians believe as you and thats offensive! Because they will never give up so we should not either.
plus i do think many of these people are bullies and i read an anti bully article once that stated that most bullies will take advantage of the fact that your a cival thoughtful human being. They know you will back down, and they take advantage of it.
Your brother’s orientation was not a choice.
Bravo… I second this.
When I was a kid and realized I was attracted to men… I did everything possible to fight those feelings… years upon years of battling my desires and brain. The levels of… shame, pain, humiliation and mental torture I put myself through to become “straight” nearly killed me. Often, I thought being dead would have been better than being gay.
I come from a family and tradition that was not “overtly” anti-gay. I can not remember one priest or nun ever saying anything at all about homosexuality… ever. And my parents rarely if ever mentioned the topic (and they were both very decent and polite people so the words “fag” and “faggot” rarely if ever crossed their lips).
But I knew that what I was feeling was wrong… not by being attacked… but by seeing gay people being the butt of jokes in movies and on tv, by bullies being allowed to pick on weak kids, by teachers and coaches turning on me and some of my peers for being sissies (bad at baseball), by the looks of disapproval and distain from my dad because I could draw better than throw a ball.
I lived in a sea of hetrosexism more than living in homophobic world. But it was the cumulative was enough to destroy any chance of me developing a decent self image or any real confidence.
For anyone who believes that being gay is a choice… you are wrong. My choice was about learning to love me as I am, learning to validate myself by living a life of value, learning to be strong in the face of bullies, learning to be loving and empathic to other souls on this planet, learning to become an adult who is careful with others feeling, kind and understands the humility of being human.
Life is amazing and rare. Laughter and love seem to be better than bitterness and arrogance.
Robert
SJ,
In this, as with everything, it’s a mistake to think that “one size fits all,” or that any individual’s experience can or should match up with anyone else’s. I’ve known gay men who are honestly, physically disgusted by the idea of having sex with a girl. Some of them have even tried, in the interest of being “normal” and not disappointing their families, and have found that in the crunch, they just couldn’t go through with it. It weirded them out too much.
I’ve known straight men who felt the same way about having sex with a man. But I’ve also known gay men who have confided to me that occasionally, they’ve been attracted to certain girls. I’ve known straight men who’ve admitted to being attracted to certain guys. I’ve known true bisexuals, who are equally attracted to both.
So. Maybe your brother, during the years when he was “interested in girls,” was only pretending to be because he was afraid of people’s reactions otherwise. Maybe he has a degree of bisexuality; it’s possible that he really was interested in girls, he just later realized he was *more* interested in boys.
Or, y’know, maybe you’re right. Maybe, being rejected by girls, he “chose” to become gay. Just because I’ve never heard of it happening before doesn’t mean that it’s impossible.
Here’s the big question, though: does it matter? Choice or no choice, is he happy now? Does he have someone in his life that he loves, and who loves him back? Is he a good and loving person?
There’s a big hooraw these days about whether or not sexual orientation is a choice. I personally don’t believe it is, but I also believe that it is a moot point. Even if it is a choice, people are allowed to make choices. It’s what they do with those choices that we should be looking at – and if your brother’s life, whether he chose it or not, makes him happy, then shouldn’t you be happy for him?
“IN YOUR MIND” your brother made “a choice.” Your mind. Your judgment.
I’m puzzled by one thing: exactly who died and made YOU God?
I just found this completely be accident but i’m so glad i did. Christian discrimination against gays is one of my biggest irritations as a christian. I was literally just having a discussion with my brother about how being born gay is not the same as being predisposed to alcohol 2 days ago! Good for you!
Just passing through your blog and clicked on the above tab. Thought it read “christians & light”. Silly me. Then I read some of your articles. I was right the first time. Thanks.
Oddly enough I had just been thinking that culturally, homosexuality as we understand it in the US did not exist during the times the Bible was written. The Jewish culture was a small desert tribe on the edge of survival, who needed everybody to produce children and stay as disease-free as possible, not easy to do in those days. That's why they had all those super-restrictive diet and sanitary laws, which we now think of as "UNCLEAN" as if it were primarily spiritual! Paul was a Roman Jew, and the Romans considered the Greek version of homosexuality severely abhorrent and totally unmacho. Which was not unreasonable, as the Greeks ignored and repressed their wives in favor of their male lovers, and taught all the younger men the same pattern.
You know, this is still bothering me, turns out I have a few more things to say.
I don't know why you would be at least somewhat willing take the prohibitions against homosexuality so literally (as evidenced by your concern that you shouldn't jump on the Christian gay acceptance bandwagon) and not heed Paul's advice about quarrells with other Christians. You basically judged me of having no good will towards you (which is not true), and instead of coming to me and saying that you felt I'd sinned against you, as Paul teaches us we should with each other, you just quit the discussion and site as a whole?
Miscommunication is incredibly common in life. You are upset because you feel your HONEST SINCERE question was rudely responded to, and now I'm upset because I feel my HONEST SINCERE answer was misinterpreted. Why can't we just talk more and come down to what we both really mean?
I see now, after rereading, that you meant you were offended because you thought I was calling you "confused" or "stupid" for not seeing that the two situations (Pashtun/American) are not the same. I wasn't, I was stating something about myself – I wasn't raised in the same Christian tradition you were, so I was honestly and sincerely confused about why you would feel Christians have to judge by action alone, instead of by motivation. I kind of still am, and that is not saying anything about my opinion of you as an individual, it's saying a lot about my understanding of the theology you have been exposed to. I hope that makes sense.
I reread your original (2nd) comment a few times, and I think you were getting there (to motivation vs action) on your own…which I think is what you meant by "your final sentence sounds an awful lot like…" etc.
So, ultimately, we both misunderstood each other. All I can do is apologize for my part, and hope you haven't closed your heart to this site entirely, as I think John is an amazing Christian moral philosopher. He's also way better than I am at finding the right words to say something, so why let my ineptness preclude you from getting his wisdom?
I don't appreciate the "confused as hell by that assumption". That is exactly the doctrinal assumption of the church I was taught – all sexual expressions singled out for censure in the Bible are always wrong. It's not a new idea I came up with in my confused mind. It's been in print for 2000+ years. I didn't make it up and I don't think there is anything novel about it.
Also I have no idea what you mean by "brand" but I know this. I am insulted by your rude response and I won't be back. If this is how my HONEST SINCERE questions are going to be answered, this is no place for an honest and sincere person to ask them.
Don't think you'll win anyone over to your point of view by this attitude. Oh, and your final sentence sounds an awful lot like the topic sentence of my second to last paragraph.
But I don't see any good will on your part, so I'll take mine and get out of this conversation.
I'm sorry I offended you, that really was not my intention. I still don't fully understand why you thought I was being rude – was it the "confused as hell"? I know some Christians don't like using that word (I obviously don't have the same aversion to it), but I only said that because it was the literal truth for me – I honestly could not figure out why you were making that assumption.
I realize now that…yes, you're right, many churches do teach that it's black and white like that. I guess what I was saying is, if you've been reading John's site at all, if you're questioning whether or not homosexuality is always sinful, it means you don't *necessarily* think the Bible is literally 100% true about everything. That life isn't black and white – I feel like that is what's behind everything Jesus taught, even, but maybe that is just my interpretation. What I meant by comparing it to straight relationships is that – the Bible also says it's good for women and men to marry, but that doesn't mean we as Christians approve of every marriage. Some people get married for the wrong reasons, or treat each other horribly in unhappy marriages.
I guess what I was trying to say is, if you are willing to question the validity of the black and white prohibition against homosexuality as many churches teach it….why take the black and white with you when you change your mind? Why does being accepting of "American" loving homosexuality, have to mean that you have to feel the same way about "Pashtun" homosexuality? By "brands", all I was trying to point out (clumsily, sure) is that…they are apples and oranges.
Part of these discussions is being willing to lay down our right to being personally offended as well as defensive so we can truly listen to understand.
Shadowspring, you are writing as if you think you have to be 100% on the side of all homosexuality in every circumstance, or 100% against homosexuality in every circumstance and I have to say I'm confused as hell by that assumption. In addition, there is no "Pashtun homosexuality" and "American homosexuality" – you say that like they are brand names to describe the same product. That's not how it works.
Christians should approve of loving gay relationships. The kind where both partners treat each other well, and the relationship enriches both of their lives, just as we should approve of loving straight relationships.
Christians should not approve of any relationship that is not loving. Not just disapprove unloving gay relationships, but disapprove of unloving straight relationships as well. Disapprove of unloving familial relationships, or unloving friendships.
Do you see? It doesn't matter who someone has a relationship with, what matters is what the relationship has.
But Ace, I was talking about the misogyny- hatred of women- as the motivation for having sex with men rather than women, and how for these men, it is totally divorced from love.
This is important, very important in my mind, to sort out. The American gay community keeps saying it is all about love, and their whole (convincing) argument stems from that point- you don't choose who to love.
Christianity is not American. If it's true at all, it's true for all cultures, all times of history. Could it be that the injunctions against homosexual behavior in the Bible are there because in the cultures/times that the commands were given (Bronze Age Palestine people who immigrated to Palestine from what is now Iraq- the Fertile Crescent) the behavior was a consequence of hating women and considering them unclean?
When Paul writes, he was immersed in first century Rome, where sexual behaviors of all kinds were part of a culture of debauchery and domination of the weak by the strong. He introduced the concept of love into marriage- it was merely a social construct not far removed from slavery for a man to acquire a wife. It was her role in society to marry and be subjected to whomever a girls father or guardian sold her, re gave her in marriage to serve.
Truth is very important. For us to say that something is wrong or good intrinsically, it must be either wrong or good in all circumstances.
I am really honestly wanting John to talk about this in sincerity and truth. He can email me privately if he wants: to_shadowspring@yahoo.com. In fact, I am thrilled that there is someone willing to talk honestly about these things.
Long ago I heard a woman preacher say, "it is impossible to live without error- though we may seek with all our hearts to live for truth, we will err. I resolve then, to err on the side of love." I like that and try to live by that maxim.
The way women are treated in the two cultures above, which allow for homosexual sex while exonerating themselves from the "guilt" of homosexuality precisely because there is NO LOVE involved, and their behavior is borne out of contempt for women- that is real. It is just as real as two gay guys in American falling in love.
Back to square one. *sigh*
Maybe it's not with whom one has sex that should even be the question, but why one makes that choice? Because what the Pashtun's and the Mexican men are engaging in is clearly evil- they are using men to fulfill their sex drives and there is not only no love involved, but actual hate.
Though I got to admit, I feel a sense of kinship with the men/boys who are hated for being used"like women". I am sad that misogyny condemns them as well, I can honestly say "I feel your pain". =(
One thought from a non- Christian. I'm definitely in the "live and let live/whatever makes you happy" camp concerning homosexuality. What annoys me about these arguments is the focus on "evil Christians". These beliefs about homosexuality are held by many different religious groups and by a large cross section of the population. Demonizing one group by another demonized group is very hypocritical.
To take this a step further: Why don't these stories look at how homosexuals are treated in predominately Christian countries versus how they're treated in predominately Muslim countries? Is it because Christians are more tolerant, more accepting of criticism and safer to go after? Or is it that it's politically acceptable to challenge Christians beliefs but politically incorrect to challenge Muslim beliefs?
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/ho…
It's my understanding that this Pashtun practice is the exact opposite of what American homosexuality claims. Pashtun gay sex is claimed to be devoid of love, and motivated by hatred and disgust of women.
American homosexuality claims to be completely about love, and devoid of ill will towards the other gender.
This is what puzzles me and keeps me silent. I want to be on the side of love, definitely. But it appears that not all homosexual sex is motivated by love, and at least in Afghanistan it is motivated by hatred of women and only allowable if there is absolutely no love involved. I have heard that Mexican men have a similar "way out" only considering the person receiving as gay, while the dominant (?) man is considered straight.
Surprisingly to me, in both cultures though one may regularly engage in gay sex without the shameful label "homosexual", it is considered shameful to be homosexual. In Mexico, it is considered shameful to be in the role a women would have- straight up misogyny. In Afghanistan, the misogyny is so pronounced that men are totally creeped out by the idea of heterosexual sex with an unclean women.
The misogyny is what keeps from being openly accepting of homosexuality. I am surrounded by fundamentalist Christianity, so oddly enough, it is also the misogyny that has me researching the issue more deeply.
I was told that if women were treated with the honor we believe Christ bestows on us as equals, that the next thing that would happen is that the church would approve homosexuals as well and then the whole institution would fall to ruin! Being hated/demeaned/considered lesser for who I am, a woman, has made me much more sensitive to the plight of others who feel rejection from the church for who they intrinsically are.
But then I am back to the same conundrum. Are Pashtun tribesman intrinsically gay? No, they just hate women so much they are repulsed at the thought of touching them. That is 100% culturally taught.
But Americans seem to be in a different situation entirely. I am so confused.
What you are talking about is situational homosexuality, when people who are typically heterosexual engage in homosexual acts due to lack of access to otherwise (think prison and pirates). This is _not_ the same thing as the western conception of ‘gay’. Situational homosexuality is only a physical act, whereas being gay is a state of being. Once a prisoner or a Pashtun tribesman or whatever finds themselves in a situation where they have regular access to their actual prefered gender for sex, they will no longer engage in homosexual acts. _Gay_ people are gay _even when they aren’t having gay sex_. They are gay when they are celibate, they are gay when they are having casual sex, and they are gay when they are in committed loving relationship. Exactly like you are straight regardless of how much sex you are having.
John typically writes from a Christian perspective, and that is his arena, so to speak. I don't think it's so much that he is unaware of what's going on in other cultures, religions and nations, but simply that he's chosen his particular playing-field and Christianity is it.
But definitely there are many cultures, religions & traditions that take more negative attitudes toward homosexuality than typical American Christian circles, and some that take more positive attitudes.
When I stopped being a Christian several years ago it was because the word's meaning had changed profoundly. I still follow Christ's teachings, but have come to see being a Christian and following Christ to be mututally exclusive: I can do one or the other, but not both. This is pretty much the same conclusion Anne Rice, the novellist, came to relatively recently, and is because the faith in which I was brought up, which taught love, honesty, and humility, turned out to be quite the opposite when viewed as an adult: those who taught love, honesty and humility actually practised hate, deception and pride.
I was taught that "love" is a verb, and action: you love someone by how you act in relation to them; therefore it makes sense to me that love's antonym, hate, also works in the same way – and I see Christians hating others all the time. I see it when Christians refuse to serve people in their secular jobs – denying them a place to stay in a nightshelter, or the ability to say goodbye to a loved one in hospital – simply because they are gay. Likewise I see hate when Christians work to deny basic legal protections to others, including other religious groups, even when in some cases denying those protections risks people's lives.
I see deception almost as often too: I see it when religious groups use outright lies in camapigns against others' civil rights, like those that were used in Maine last year and in California the year before that. I see it when the Roman Catholic Church actively prevents local law-enforcement agencies from dealing with accusations of paedophilia made against priests by both moving the priest to another diocese (and in some times another country) and having all evidence relevant to the case sent to the Vatican. I see deception when the Roman Catholic church spreads disinformation throughout Africa about condoms, despite both the increased risk of HIV and other STD transmission and unsustainably high birth rate on that continent.
And as for pride, the claim of papal infallibility is infamous – yet people ignore all the time the virtually identical claim made by Mormons of their church's senior leadership, or the tacit claims of infallibility made by many Evangelical churches. I can think of few things more arrogant, more prideful, than to claim you cannot ever be wrong – yet this is what many Christians do. And that's before you consider the pride Christians take in their wealth, their home, their achievements, etc.
This pretty much describes why LGBTs get so angry with Christians: the Christians who condemn gays for refusing to submit to the Christians' moral code are at the very same time wilfully ignoring other parts of that same moral code. So tell me, who is being hypocritical?
This is why I can well agree with Stephen Fry when he said this:
"Do you know who would be the last person to be accepted as a prince of the Church? The Galilean carpenter. That Jew. They would kick him out before he tried to cross the threshold. He would be so ill-at-ease in the Church."
I do (of course) recognise that not all Christians are like this. There are some (like John Shore, and no doubt many who read his blog) who I am confident will one day by welcomed by Jesus with open arms and great joy in His heart, although I do tend to think of such people not as Christians but as Christ-followers.
However all this does mean that as a whole the Church is not an institution for which I can have much respect. I believe it has become a twisted, subverted form of that which it should have been. It also means that the anger many gays have towards the Church is not at all irrational: the natural response of any human to hate is anger and hate, and I can think of no other institution in the Western world which acts towards gays with a degree or scope of hatred comparable to that displayed by the Christian Church.
My sentiments exactly. When I first started reading I noted it looked rather long and it’s the wee morning hours and I wanted to get to bed but you captured my attention and quickly, my spirit. This is the same place I have come to. After years of agonizing struggle I finally let THE CHURCH and all its folderol fall away and said in my heart, “It’s just you and me, Jesus.” I’ve never felt I had to look back. What a weight lifted from me!!
You sound like a person I would like to know.
Thankful that you recognize that “all Christians are not like this” as I am one such Christian. WOW – you’re very good at expressing this in words most can understand. I agree, “AMEN” for a likeminded “man.” with you. It is very sad and unfortunate that there are many bad apples in this cart called Christianity whom give us wholesome apples a bad name and reputation. Grace & Peace to you as you follow Christ without the badge or label of “Christian. I understand why you would do such. You are loved. In His Love & Mine, Roger & Out
There are many battles to fight. This is one of them.